Michael David Wilson 0:08
Welcome to The This Is Horror Podcast. I'm your host Michael Wilson, the managing editor and owner of This Is Horror. And momentarily, I'll be joined by the deputy editor of This Is Horror. Dan Howarth. Today is part two of our interview for the award winning golfer Josh Malerman. If you'd like to listen to part one, it was episode 35, which was initially aired on March 17. But the conversation doesn't really follow a linear pattern. So equally if you'd like, then just get stuck into part two, and then listen to part one, retrospectively. Today, we're going to continue talking about bird box, which was of course, the novel of the year. In the This Is Horror awards. We're going to talk about adapting bird box for film readings in unusual places, and much more. So let's jump in to the interview with Josh Malerman.

Josh Malerman 1:35
Well, you know what, though, you just Michael, you just gave me an idea. Where I may try to schedule like a reading around here in a very strange setting, like you were describing, I hadn't thought of it like that. I, I was thinking bar or bookstore or you know. Instead of thinking how to change the bookstore, why not just, you know, change the location into like, a very, like a scarier freakier place, like legitimately freakier place. Let's do a reading in like a, I don't know, there's a lot of abandoned a lot of abandoned places around here.

Dan Howarth 2:09
You've got to do one where you put curtains over the windows, you know, the cheats, pin them up over the windows, like in the book? Oh, yeah. That really freaked people out.

Josh Malerman 2:20
Yeah, well, you know, and then watching out even... What about even having friends, you know, not make noises outside the window. But something like walk around. I mean, why not create the whole like, sort of atmosphere? Oh, you know, which, which kind of takes me to, I don't know if you guys know this, but maybe I can't remember if you wrote about that or not, but Bird Box was picked up by Universal Studios.

Dan Howarth 2:43
Did you guys know that? Yeah. That was one thing that we that we wanted to ask you about?

Josh Malerman 2:49
I flew to Los Angeles actually to do an interview with Porter Anderson. But while I was there, my manager set up a meeting between me and the producers that are spearheading Bird Box at Universal Studios. So you as you can imagine, man, I was horrified heading into this experience. I'm flying from Detroit to Los Angeles. It's my first book out. First of all, I'm going to do this interview with Porter Anderson at a writers convention. So we're doing that in front of a roomful of people, that's scary enough, then then to be also you know, going to sit down and, and talk about Bird Box the movie with these producers. These producers have done all these huge movies. You know, this was this was scary. And Allison, my girl, she drops me off. At the head of Universal Studios. I walk in, I get I get a pass to enter. And then I walk a long, long way down I think it was called Jimmy Stewart Lane. And I walked down this like street. And and it's on the universal lot and, you know, passing warehouses on either side of me, where, where, you know, there's some studios inside and trailers that are like costumes and, and a restaurant that has been on the lot for 50 years for the crew members and stuff. So you can imagine all the, you know, dudes who had like coffee, you know, before they went and shot like movies that we all love, you know what I mean? And it was just really this intense thing. And they didn't have an office building back there. They had, what's it called? Bungalows. So each producer sort of had their own bungalow, and their parking spot outside this spot reserved for you know, and it's all these producer names, right? The guy that I met up with was Chris Morgan, I went to went to his office, and I show up, I'm trembling. I'm so freakin scared. And the Secretary was like, Oh, you're a half hour early. And I was like, oh, okay, I'll just I'll sit down and she's like, No, well, maybe you shouldn't go take in the sights. And I was like, oh, I should probably get out of your hands just to get just come back and help you. Okay, so I leave, and I just start walking around. And I chanced upon this empty set of New York City. I don't know what movie it was from and had to be from a long time ago. And, and, you know, there was like the baker and the bicycle shop and like, like brownstones, and I mean, I'm seriously walking around in empty, like, 678 block set of New York City. And I'm, like, you know, waiting to go meet with this guy. And it's like, 80 degrees out. So you know, I'm just like, Oh, my God. I'm like, sweating and nervous. I'm so nervous. I didn't even take any photos of the set I was on I should have, I should have taken like, a whole should have done like a whole session, you know. But anyway, so times up, I go back. I, you know, walk in Oh, hum. I'm here. I'm here now. And when I got there, I was like the first. Well, me and the screenwriter, were the first to to arrive. And we walk into Chris Morgan's office. And Chris, I'm like six foot two. And this guy's like a few inches taller than me. And I'm like, Oh, my God, I don't even I don't even have heights on this guy. You know what I mean? Everything just felt like, I just felt like I was like shrinking. And I walked in his office, and I look at the wall. And he had all these like, awesome horror novels, like on shelves on the wall. And I was like, oh, wait a minute, you know, you know, Robert McCammon. He's like, Oh, yeah, no, I love Robert McCammon. I love that, you know, and we go over some names and all my nerves just vanished. That was it. They all dissipated went away. I was like, oh, man, I could shoot, this is great. I could talk about this stuff with this guy forever, you know. And then all these. I think it was a total like sort of six producers and myself and the screenwriter. And we sat around talking about Bird Box, the movie and we looked at storyboards that were huge. These like, elaborate, awesome, like graphic novels that style like storyboards of the movie. And at some point, and this is where I was leading with the holidays. At some point, Chris Morgan was like, how do you, you know, see this movie being done? And that was like, you know, I think this is an opportunity to do something that a movie never has really done before. Because it sounds like the wrong thing to do, which is, which is showing nothing for periods of time. I think that with today's surround sound systems, you know, you could have complete blackness on the screen, you could have the boy here, right? The girl your laugh Mallory in the middle of the river in the middle, the banks on your right, the banks in your left, and you can even screw with the panning. So suddenly, the rivers on the left and Mallory's on the right. And everything's, you know, crazy, right. But and I think that it's something that as a horror fan, I would be ecstatic to know that I was going into a movie that had periods of just blackness, because number one, we would know that the next image we see is not going to be a good one, right? So it would be like pretty freaky to be in a pitch black theater with all these crazy sounds, and you're like, oh, shit, what's gonna, what are they going to show next? You know, that sort of thing. And, I mean, I just think Bird Box is like the story to be made into a movie that like, you know, has those kinds of things. And after I go through this whole speech on why, why, you know, this whole monologue on why I think the producers should show nothing on the screen. I just stopped talking and I almost felt like my words just like fall to the carpet. You know, it was like, boom, like, Josh man, you just flew to Los Angeles to ask these producers to show a blank screen. And, and, and he he's actually seemed interested, and they, they seemed interested, and they talked about how they had been talking about stuff like that, too. So we'll see if it goes in that direction. But to me, man, I just I know that the genre seems to like embrace like, originality and and first time events and first time attempts and that sort of thing. Oh, Fernbach that's the movie that had 20 minutes of darkness. You know what I mean? That's 20 minutes in a row, but had like 20 total minutes of darkness, whatever, when the theater went black. I mean, if you can just imagine yourself as a 17 year old you know, horror fan, you're your stone, you go to the movie, you sit down all these wild sounds all around you with a pitch black screen and then an image comes back on and it's it's not a it's not a great happy one. And I mean, what an experience what a horror experience that could be.

Dan Howarth 9:31
It sounds absolutely awesome. I'm sold. When When can we see it?

Josh Malerman 9:39
Well, we will see I don't know if you guys read or not, but the director of Mama was the original director attached. And then he he, he laughed because he was going to work on like a remake of The Mummy but not like Brendan Fraser mommy like yeah, it was a remake of like the Boris Karloff Mummy. And so he was gone, then a different director was on board that another director was on board and another, and now Andres Machete is back on board. And it actually feel it feels like it's really, possibly really moving forward right now with him. And I know that he is interested in these kinds of things also. So there's a chance that that bird box the movie could could go to have this sort of like, you know, uniqueness to it, or whatever. And then that's, I mean, you know, obviously, that'd be the greatest thrill i can imagine.

Michael David Wilson 10:35
For me, I think the filming bird box in black and white would be a great move, because obviously, you know, like, it's so pared down in many ways. I mean, there's not much in terms of like, really kind of colorful, over descriptions, you absolutely, I mean, you've almost gone for a minimalist approach, and at the same time made these characters absolutely engaging and relatable, which is a pretty tough thing to pull off. But then indeed, in in terms of not really being able to, to see outside, I feel you then want to remove something from the audience. So if you put it in black and white, for me, that just works. And I also think I mean, you mentioned the twilight zone before there is something very Twilight Zone about it. So what a great nod towards that, to have the entire thing filmed in black and white.

Josh Malerman 11:50
I can't even really you probably know of one, but I can't even really think right now at the last like, really sort of mind blowing black and white movie, you know, you maybe you know, I just can't really think of one offhand. Other than maybe like Woody Allen movies or something, even that, that his last name is like in the 90s or something, but but black and white, that's, that's a way I've been describing this book for years, you know, my, I would talk to my friends, and I'd be like, oh, you know, Bird Box boxes of black and white book. And they, they'd be like, Oh, you mean, it's like really strict? Whatever. Like, no, no, no, I mean, I mean, that in the way that there are black and black and white movies. Bird Box is a black and white book. And the book that I'm working on right now is definitely in color, you know? And even possibly that what do you call it? Um, what was it called when Hitchcock? It's called Technicolor? No, what was it called? Man? Like Hitchcock was using stereo scope. I can't remember. But there's a certain certain look to like, the late 50s Hitchcock movies that I feel like the book I'm working on now, it would be that would be shot that way. And I don't mean the movie, but I mean, the book itself, the images that come to mind are in those colors. And so Bird Box Yeah, I always saw that as you know, like, yes. Like, what you what you just described and, and it's almost like pridefully colorless, you know, there there is not a joke in that thing. There's hardly a description of a landscape. There's, there's hardly a description of anything in there. That sounds like a really weird book all of a sudden.

Michael David Wilson 13:31
Yeah, I think in terms of like a black and white film, the closest thing I can think of in recent memory that actually did a decent job of it was in large, voluntary as Antichrist though I haven't seen that well it will the opening scenes are in black and white now. You know, the rest of the movie isn't but it is in like kind of very dark colors. But yeah, that the the opening is in black and white and is pretty traumatic.

Josh Malerman 14:10
Did he do Nymphomaniac?

Michael David Wilson 14:12
He did. I haven't seen it yet.

Josh Malerman 14:15
I loved that movie, man. It is absolutely insane. You got to watch that one when you can. I mean, it's it's long. And it's also, you know, it's the kind of thing it's the kind of thing where like, you never know exactly when's the right time to sit down and watch nymphomaniac. I went through that with Schindler's List for you. Oh, there's a black and white one. Yeah. That was Schindler's List for years, where I kept wanting to watch it because, you know, I want to I wanted to see it, and I actually respect seems to bring a lot actually and I, I just never found the right time to sit down. And finally I did and I'm like, you know, of course, it was an afternoon, you know, when I was just alone, like okay, now I'm gonna watch Schindler's List. Well, obviously nymphomaniacs, different subject matter, but Holy shit, is that movie heavy and real? My girl and I were talking about it last night, how it comes to mind, like, at least once a week, something from that movie pops up. You know, that is an intense freakin movie man. But yeah, I can't really, I can't really think of a great modern one. And he seems like it also seems like you don't have to imagine. Like there's there's great ation in black and white, you know, you don't have to imagine this sort of Pleasantville black and white, you know, like, imagine a more contrasting a more saturated black and white for Bird Box, you know, where it's more like shadowing and chiaroscuro, and then that sort of, you know, what I'm saying? I think that if you've sort of where the black is very black and the white is very white, or that sort of contrasting almost almost like certain effects that you could put on photos, you know, you know what I mean?

Michael David Wilson 15:54
I think if you were to take it a step further, you could also then adjust the saturation levels based on the kinds of levels of fear and trepidation that Mallory is feeling at that moment. Yeah, absolutely.

Josh Malerman 16:09
Right. It doesn't have to be a sort of static, you know, black and white, it can actually there can be a gradation throughout the movie. I mean, that sounds what we're describing right now. Sounds awesome.

Michael David Wilson 16:18
And we just basically, we need to give the producer of the movie, this podcast and it's like, yeah, so we figured it out.

Josh Malerman 16:36
I am working on a letter to send them a sort of just to make I just want to have the argument for a pitch black theater. I want to have that on paper, you know what I mean? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna mail them a letter in the next week or so. The argument for a pitch black theater.

Michael David Wilson 17:04
This is the only podcast where we've taken a halftime break. I think when we've done two parters before either it's just been a very long podcast, or some of the ones we did with Richard Thomas. We literally scheduled you know, for two separate days.

Josh Malerman 17:35
Yeah, man, that guy is really something else, isn't he?

Michael David Wilson 17:40
He's a great writer, and he's so knowledgeable on writing. And then of course, he's a brilliant editor as well.

Dan Howarth 17:49
And very generous with his time as well. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 17:52
Well, I think, again, with the This Is Horror awards to go back to that. It's a testament in terms of how good he is that burnt tongues, won the anthology of the year. And then the new black which he edited came as the runner up, so

Josh Malerman 18:12
I just got both of those in the mail. Um, I just did a blurb for I don't know how to say this word. exigencies exigencies. So how do you say that word? Yeah, I

Michael David Wilson 18:22
think kind of exigencies. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Josh Malerman 18:25
I did. I did a blurb for that. For that one. It was great, man. And then afterwards, I asked him, I didn't ask him. I just ordered the other the other ones. Yeah, burned times and the new black. And he also steered me towards Stephen Graham Jones after the people lights have gone off.

I just I read the first story, that one in the movie theater. And that's

Michael David Wilson 18:53
a brilliant story. Well, that that one short story collection at a year, and it was the end and all beginnings. That was the runner up for that. So, man,

Josh Malerman 19:05
the ending the beginning is is so good. Oh, yeah. So that's one of my, that's one of my favorite horror novels, I've read and or books, whatever you want to call it, that read it in a while, man, John F. D tap is. I just wouldn't be surprised if this guy, like does something that is like, like a classic of the genre. If he hasn't already, you know, I wouldn't be surprised. And if to see that come from him. Like, there's just something you know, I was reading the end and all beginnings. And at first I was like, Oh, I've never, you know, never really read a voice like this or whatever. And then I realized like, oh, man, I've never had a voice like this, you know, like, whatever it was, was his own thing. And in every story was so different. But then the handoff from novella, novella seemed like very well, very well ordered, you know, and it sort of just started to like, build on me and by the end, I mean, I I was like, sending like people links, I was reading passages and my girlfriend, you know, just I was smitten by that word. Well,

Michael David Wilson 20:07
I very much got the impression. The answer with your own writing that Yan isn't afraid to experiment. I mean, in terms of finding his own voice and bringing something different, you have, you have some parts in the same novella that are very Pacey very quick back and forth minimalist dialogue. And then, in seemingly, you know, the same bit, you'll then have a couple of pages of really specific, intricate description, almost poetry like and things that you wouldn't see married together very often and yet it works.

Josh Malerman 20:57
There really is something like poetic about that book. You're right. I don't know exactly what it is. I don't I think I don't do this very often. But I think I'm gonna reread that one, like, and because I just want to be able to, I don't know, you know, sometimes you read the book to experience it, and then you read it to like, see how it was done? You know what I mean? I think I want to kind of go that second round with it to kind of like, study it, you know?

Michael David Wilson 21:25
Yeah. And I certainly imagine back to Bird Box, that that is what a lot of people have done with your own novel. Because it's the kind of novel that ends up you see the ending and you think, Ah, okay, now I want to go back to how it all began, particularly because it's only really in the last quarter that the present scenes and what why Malorie and had children on this boat ride, if you want to call it that, what why, why that happened, how it kind of how the pieces of that puzzle, all came into play.

Josh Malerman 22:10
You know, there was a certain juggling act with the, with certain sections of the book, because it pretty much remains now the order that the rough draft was written in, you know, in terms of time, timelines flipping back and forth, and the actual scenes themselves that occurred, or that happened, whatever. And, but there are a couple moments that it was a bit of a juggling act, the one that always comes to mind, is when Tom and Jules, take the dogs to go for that three mile walk to Tom's house. Then the next scene is Malorie in the bar with Victor. And then with what happens to Victor, when we return to the housemates waiting for Tom and Jules to return with the dogs. That was sort of a juggling act to make to, to make it so that hopefully, the reader would be extra worried now about time and tools, being outside with dogs, after experiencing what Malorie experienced with Victor in the bar. And there, it was weird, because you would be informing the past with scenes of the present, you know, versus the other way around. So there was, there was definitely some, yeah, so some sort of sleight of hand with with those kinds of moments.

Michael David Wilson 23:29
So when you initially wrote it, did you know exactly what Mallory was doing? Or in its kind of infancy? The idea? Did you think right, he's in the boat to children all blindfolded? I don't exactly know what is gonna happen. But this is a good starting point.

Josh Malerman 23:52
That's exactly how it started. The opening scene, the original draft started with him on the river already. And then so if you could just skip to the very, very beginning where now she wakes them up and tells them they're going it just started with him on the river. And yeah, I just had an image of a, you know, just seemed like, like a striking thing a woman traveling down river blindfolded and, and like the perils of that, and they have two kids on board. But then, that literally, that was three pages in when I'm like, Okay, what are they doing? What are they fleeing, blah, blah, blah. And then I had sort of, you know, distinct memory of once when I was 13 or so a teacher had mentioned to our class, that a man might go mad if he attempted to contemplate infinity. And I remember I was 13 years old and that night, I was sitting in this hallway upstairs while my family was getting right for dinner, like to go out to dinner, mom and dad are walking back and forth my two brothers. And I remember just sitting there like, saying, okay, the word I think that scared me the most was attempting to fathom infinity. And so I sat there like okay, if I if I think too hard about where space and go crazy, you know. I was like 13 years old and I was very nervous about like losing my mind over overthinking about too much of our space hens. And, you know, somehow, whatever got through that night. And then years later, you know, I have this woman traveling on a river blindfolded and I'm like, man, what is she fleeing from and then if we jump back to what we said, we were talking about earlier, and then trying without trying too hard to come up with abstract monsters. I remembered that feeling of that, sitting in that hallway with the teacher said. Ah, maybe, maybe Malorie is fleeing infinity, where she's fleeing an unfathomable concept. And that's why she's blindfolded because if she gazes upon it, that was, you know, that, you know, infinity personified, if she gazes upon it, then that's in a sense, your brain would try, of course, to make sense of it. And like the teacher said, A man who tries to make sense of infinity can go mad. So that that sort of fit like, that just slid right in there, to be honest with you. And like I said, you know, wrote that rough draft in 26 days that that I did not enter that rough draft with an outline. So to start on day one, without even knowing about the, quote, unquote, like infinity angle, but to discover it on like, you know, the evening of night one falling asleep, and then to wake up and work start working in and day two, that was like a, that was a kind of a lucky break. Because, you know, in terms of writing, you know, I mean, there, there could be something that kind of holds you up for a month. And then then if that's two months, then you start to think, what else do I got? And if it's three months, you may never come back to it again. You just don't know. You know? So. So yeah, that that is absolutely the genesis moment of Bird Box was wrote Malorie in the river, laying in bed, remembering the thing about the teacher was like, ah, Mallory, she's thing infinity fell asleep, and then woke up and you know, the book just like, ballooned from there.

Michael David Wilson 27:24
And is that how many of your story ideas start off with more? An image or a very rough idea? And then this Yeah, netic this frenetic writing that we spoke about previously, and then once you've, you know, got that out onto the page, then it's time to actually think more about the intricacies of story and structure and putting together a more well, I guess, a more just conventional narrative, in a sense that it's one that someone might be able to navigate.

Josh Malerman 28:09
Yeah, absolutely. Usually, there might be like, a couple landmark moments. Like I knew in Bird Box, I needed to get from Mallory arriving in the house to the birth scene, right. That's obviously a lot happens between those two moments. But that, you know, that's, that's, I guess, part of writing a novel is bridging the landmark scenes that you have in mind, you know, the ones that excited you enough to write the story in the first place, right? Um, let's say for example, Ghastle and Yule, that, um, that was more of like, just a singular like concept, like, Oh, I like the idea of to like warring horror filmmakers, because that was interesting to me, two guys, two artists that are obsessed with each other and because of what they're doing, like their genre, they kind of have liberty to act not to act out violence towards each other, but to sort of be like frantic, angry, violent, colorful, strange, in their works of art trying to outdo each other. So that seemed like a great... like pitting two artists against each other. The horror genre is a great place to do that in the same way that it'd be great to pit like two surrealist, you know, against each other. Because the sky's the limit on what they could do, right? It would be it seems like a tremendously boring idea to imagine two realists trying to outdo each other. My story is more real. I found a hole in March story, you know, that's not very realistic at all. Nobody would shave at four in the afternoon, you know? So, so that so Gasol Newell didn't start with quote unquote landmark scenes, but it did start with like, just a concept you know, like like an idea. And and that actually kind of goes back to like the songwriting versus the book thing. Whereas could Ghastle and Yule have been a song. Yeah, that one would have worked, you know, like two filmmakers that are obsessed with each other. That's a fun little song without crossing sort of into that, like, I don't know that that territory that hasn't worked for me that horror song. So but when I started working on it, you know, and right away with the first movie mentioned, like the movie that has to be over, we're both working on that Bill Ferris' is Black will have black blood right away, right there, I realized, ah, this, this story can go this story can be as as broad or as big or as small as you want it. Because you can talk about as many movies as you want to, you know what I mean? And then that was sort of like once that that structure, something was set up that then things were you know, whatever, then it just flowed from there, I guess.

Michael David Wilson 31:02
Yeah, I mean, it starts off with almost a love letter to horror cinema. And then rapidly descends into this nightmare and starts to get, you know, pretty damn scary by the end of it. But we love

Dan Howarth 31:26
the kind of Hama Hora feel that add to it as well, that kind of, you know, 60s 70s groundbreaking filmmakers who were, you know, above and beyond people's conceptions and the way that people think about film. I just thought it had a really kind of retro vibe to it. Really, I thought you did a great job of kind of channel in an era that's particularly looked upon with a lot of fondness by British genre fans anyway.

Josh Malerman 31:55
Oh, yeah. Well, thanks. First of all, yeah, the same. Same here. Yeah, you guys got you guys had Hammer, like front and center and like the 60s and 50s. And so that's, that's amazing to me. But ya know, you know, originally, it was like, does this happen? You know, does this story happen in the modern era. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, because it's gonna sound insane. But almost because of all the CG stuff. It was like, I don't want this story to be about two guys. Like, you know, like, sitting at computers the whole time. You know what I mean? Well, this, this can be about two guys like Fielding, and like, trying to, like, you know, like, oh, they pulled off the bloody like, museums scene. Well, nowadays, that wouldn't be too hard. You know, I mean, it's hard. And it takes work, whatever. But to imagine them, like, it seemed like there was a certain performance art of carrying out the special effects themselves back in those days, you know, and you can only imagine, yeah, you know, like an actual horror movie. Like, we've all read interviews with Tom Savini. And the way he makes it sound like, you know, it was like, there. If you were on set during the movies, Tom Savini, or any really affects guy did, it must have felt like an actual, like, performance art moment, like, well, they had to get this right for the camera, whatever. And so that sort of that sort of precarious, you know, balancing that sounded fun for Ghastle and Yule.

Dan Howarth 33:17
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I don't know if you've ever seen it, because it was a BBC thing. But have you ever seen the documentary series A History of horror by a guy called margaritas?

Josh Malerman 33:26
No, but if you get a chance to check

Dan Howarth 33:29
that out, it kind of mind for me? Yes, it's called the history of horror. And by Mark Gatiss.

Josh Malerman 33:44
Cool. Okay.

Dan Howarth 33:46
And it kind of talks about like how a hammer and Amicus and you know how they were pushing the bow out and stuff like that Gasol and your real really put me in in mind that I thought it was you know, I think that'd be right up the street if you want to check it out.

Josh Malerman 34:01
Sweet. I will. I may even check that out. Right after this.

Dan Howarth 34:09
Michael, I think I cut across you before you sure you had something.

Michael David Wilson 34:13
I liked how with Ghastle and Yule there's the blurring between reality and what is yes. Here say what is legend? And I mean, what one of my favorite bits was just where there's, there's room at one of them, kidnapped a child, took him to the mountains of Alberta, set him free and just filmed the boys attempt at survival. That just really stuck with me. And I also know that's a whole story within that, you know, you could conceivably If you could write the novella of that.

Josh Malerman 35:05
Man, actually you're right that would would that one actually has legs You're right. Um, yeah, that's the thing is sometimes when I read.. Oh, did you guys that Ghastle and Yule came out in the UK paperback like that it's printed. Did you guys know that?

Dan Howarth 35:21
Then yeah, send me send the paperback version of Bird Box now.

Josh Malerman 35:25
Is that where you guys read it? You didn't read it on Kindle?

It was like, you know, a thrill for me to open. I mean, they told me they were going to do it but to open the UK paperback and see like the title page Ghastle and Yule, I'm like, Oh my God, you know what I mean? It was like mind blowing. And, but it is a little fun for me to read that one. Because, of course, it makes me want to go make by camera Island, it makes me want to go make sure in your own death. You know, though, I feel like on paper, I'm more of a you'll fan. Like his ideas are just more like, I don't know, like, colder and stranger and they just sound like I would run to the video store to rent those movies the you know the market and buy camo Island and Beast fucker. I would like totally, totally run. But then I I feel like if I had guests, Louise in front of me too. I would be like, oh, man, maybe I like this guy better. It's kind of like, we're like, sometimes we take like someone like Steven Spielberg for granted, you know? And we're like, oh, yeah, of course. He's great. Oh, yeah. Why whatever. But let's talk about someone more interesting, right? And then you really sit down and watch Spielberg stuff and you're like, Fuck, this guy's great. And I wonder like, I feel like Ghastle has a little more of like that side in him the more a little more for like the masses where Yule's more of a rogue.

Michael David Wilson 36:52
See, you're going to get a crazy fan now message you and be like, you know, how dare you say that you prefer the worst of Yo, clearly, the great Eros. So we're gonna kick off from Hey,

Josh Malerman 37:09
it's hard not to fall for an animatronic cast on a deserted island, though, you know, it's hard not to want to see that movie.

Michael David Wilson 37:16
I think it's very difficult to rival a film called beast fucker. Who wouldn't want to see that movie? I mean, so one of my questions was going to be whether you had written the screenplay, or indeed a short story version of any of the films referencing Ghastle and Yule or if that was a project you would consider for the future? Even if just an experimentation in creative writing?

Josh Malerman 37:57
haven't done it yet would absolutely would absolutely entertain that or even, you know, really try to pull it off in the future. Um, you know, I go through, through I've gone through each of them and like thought and a couple of them, it seems like, um, in terms of actually making the movie seem like insane, like, curate your own data, we gotta, we gotta get a museum. And by camera, Lila, like, man, we would need a frickin right and I'm trying to cast in the market, like we need like a city in a market. But then people blush to where the where the kid is raised by mannequins, while the parents sort of observed the other room. All right, well, maybe we could pull that off and, and wigs, gases What about the woman you know, increasingly obsessed with appearances, whatever that that can be done. And what was I can't remember gas is first one right now the one I remember the name of it, were sleep paralysis, the one with blurryface the demon in the girls room was faces never really fully and focused or whatever, we can maybe pull that one off. So I have actually, like, gone through these and consider them, you know, in that way. But at the same time, it's like, you know, I'm so excited about writing the next book or the next novella or whatever, that it's like to write a script for a bicameral Island, it seems like that it's like 10th on the list or something, you know?

Michael David Wilson 39:18
Yeah, I actually had written a note, say, you know, observing the similarity between blurface and of course, not seeing the evil as it were within Bird Box.

Josh Malerman 39:33
Michael, that is one of the way in maybe you've gone through this to both of you. But when you start to have like a cannon a body of work, it's like, it's very strange when you notice themes, because are things that recur because I don't think any of us like, sit down and be like, I'm the kind of guy who was troubled by my parent. I'm gonna write about you know what I mean? But then you see like that we You'd like that sort of thing like recurring. You know, I had a sort of a three, three books in a row that I now call my bad dad phase. I'm not a dad, so it must have been about my dad. And it was it was like, it was like, all of a sudden I looked and I was like, oh, man, that's three books in a row that kind of deal with like, like really weird father figures, you know? And, and that's just like, it's almost alarming to notice recurring themes, because it's like, oh, shit, that's well, yeah, let's not pay too much attention to that.

Michael David Wilson 40:30
Well, I believe in the initial draft that Chuck Palahniuk wasn't aware of how many dildos he'd put into Fight Club.

Josh Malerman 40:45
That would be a more exciting thing to discover about myself.

Michael David Wilson 40:49
Oh, I appear to be putting dildos into my fiction!

Yeah, how would you lower the tone?

Josh Malerman 41:02
Yeah, we're down. And I do know that a bad dad face. You want to really lower the tone combined bad dad face with too many dildos.

Dan Howarth 41:18
Josh, I thought we were taking the moral high ground and leaving Michael hanging with the dildos were implicated.

Michael David Wilson 41:29
Quite a rare exception to see you taking any sort of moral stance, Dan.

Dan Howarth 41:35
Yeah, that's true.

Michael David Wilson 41:39
So are there any writers that you would say intimidate you in terms of when you're reading their work, and you think, oh, man, that's just like, so well crafted, or they just do something that aesthetically really resonates. And it's something that you know, you aspire to or inspires your own writing?

Josh Malerman 42:10
That question is so much better than the who, then then any writers that influenced you, or that kind of you know what I mean? That question is magnificent. Are there any writers that intimidate you? Holy cow. Yeah. You know, like I read, not that long ago, I read Flowers in the Attic. And I read online that, that Flowers in the Attic that we all know, or that everyone knows is, was her rough draft. Like she made a few like, you know, spelling corrections after the rough draft or sign. And reading that book, knowing that was like watching somebody pull off like a physical feat that you just aren't capable of, you know, it was like, no, no, no way. This is her rough draft. This is the first go round of this, that I mean, it just makes you feel like she's, like, tapped into something that you just don't know. You know, it's like, you read the same thing about Stephen King, I heard the Running Man, he wrote that in like, in like, a weekend and didn't change much. And, you know, he, I think recently I read that he, he said something about the dark, the last three Dark Tower books were all like, essentially, the rough drafts. And you're just like, Man, why, you know, those are especially intimidating moments for me because I, I want to be able to put out books with like regularity. And then to think that if you don't have that thing that I'm talking about right now, that sort of initial like grasp and it takes like, you know, carving and work and work and work, like how long is it going to take between releases? Do you see what I mean? So, so in the I guess that's not a very artistic answer. Um, but Stephen King is definitely one of those where, you know, whether or not you like, whether or not is your favorite or whether or not you think a lot of his books and wonky or whatever it is, I mean, the man really has a grasp on something, he has a rhythm that I mean, it's really hard not to just like fall right in and dance with them from the word go. I mean, like, from page one of every one of his books, you know, I feel that way about Agatha Christie, and feel that way about, like, I sent flowers in the attic. And then there are guys who wrote something that is so oof, like, you know, like, really dark like Jack Ketchum. Um, I was the first time I read The Girl Next Door. When I started it, I was like, Oh, this is this is kind of like it almost felt like, like one of the beats or something. There was something so so down to earth about it and so, so I don't know. What's the word I want to say realistic because that word always freaks me out. But there's something so like real life about it or whatever. And then where it ends up going, oh man, oh man, the guy saw like screwed me up. Have you guys read that one?

Michael David Wilson 45:09
Oh yeah, it's one of my favorite books.

Josh Malerman 45:15
That one just Holy Cow did Sutton to me. And that was that was a different kind of intimidation because there are guys like Nabokov, like, Fitzgerald, like Truman Capote. Who, who are writing the, it's so fluid that it almost feels like they're like, like they're swimming or something in language. You know? Like, sometimes I think that real genius is like fluid like Brian Wilson from the Beach Boys and, and Mozart. It's like, it's like almost like playful. You know what I mean? Even if it's a horror story or whatever, then there are guys like, Beethoven. Or I'm Jack Ketchum, where it's like, oh, boy, this isn't playful. And I'm not sure that I could trace like the roots of this, like, I'm not sure that I could point to where this came from, in terms of how the story was told in the feeling that I'm getting from this story. Like, where, how, where the hell did this come from? Is this just something he was born with? Is this something like just something that he's like, really crafted? I you know, I don't know enough about him to know if the girl next door and that's one of his earlier books, right? Yeah, yeah. That one and like offseason, right? So, so I'm just kind of like, that becomes especially intimidating, because then you're like, Well, shit, does this guy just have like a spark that I'm unable to achieve? No matter how much I write, you sit, I mean, and then it becomes kind of like a scary homeless, insecure thought. Then there's other there's, there's like things with like, Bird Box are happening right now. It's, you know, a pro Stoker award. And so I'm going through and reading the other books that are nominated for first novel also. And I'm reading JD Barker's forsaken. And I'm reading I'm reading I'm like, oh, man, shoot, this is so good. You know? And your initial instinct is like, oh, no, it's great. What am I going to do? You know? And then you sort of realize, like, wait a minute, wait a minute, this is great. And it's nominated for the same award that Bird Box is, in fact, I hope that every one of these books is mind blowing. And so far, that's the case. So it's like, okay, I reject catch him. And it's like, yeah, it's a little intimidating man. And, and I read, you know, the end and all beginnings and this JD Barker book and, and Clive Barker, and you know, all these giants, but then you say to yourself, like, there, there's room for everybody like I there's room for me up there in here I can, I can enter this room and not be too, too scared of everyone. In fact, I should be. I should be really, really excited that I'm welcome in this room at all. You know what I mean?

Michael David Wilson 48:06
Yeah, and I think seeing of writers whose work you admire, or you get really into just validates your own work when you're on and you know, when you're shortlisted for the same award.

Josh Malerman 48:22
Yeah. David Cronenberg is up there for first novel, isn't that... did you see that on the stoker about he also he wrote his first novel, and that's something of a first novel, that's like, man, Cronenberg is one of all of our favorite, like filmmakers of all time. It's just, it's just interesting. It's sort of it's like encouraging and like you say, intimidating at the same time. I think that, obviously, it's a matter of how you react to being intimidated, right? Are you going to be like, Oh, maybe I should be an accountant instead? Or are you going to be like, okay, all right. Whoa, that book was really good. And what you're doing is really good, too. I think a key phrase, as an artist to say to yourself is there's room for everybody. Because if like you're in a band and some other rock band does really well, okay, great. It's not the only rock band is doing well. There's room for everybody. And especially in today's day and age, where there's like so many outlets for music for for arts, for writing all these things, you know, between self publishing and novella collections, I mean, just whatever. There's so many different outlets that there's like, There truly is room for everybody. There isn't an allotted amount of spaces that are filled right now. And you have to wait for like Jack Ketchum to retire No. Like you can join him in that room. If you just like keep writing. You see what I mean.

Michael David Wilson 49:45
Yeah, absolutely. I think what it is with the girl next door, is that it's so much like having a conversation with someone a bar, is that kind of Hello Creole, neighborly, almost language, and that that that's almost very seductive as well. And yeah, then that that leads you into to the world almost falsely leads you into what you believe to be a safe environment. But by the time you're in there, you can't get out.

Josh Malerman 50:22
Oh my god, oh, you want to hear a funny story is that I started reading when I started reading it, I started reading it to Alison. And we it was gonna be like, Oh, this is the book we read together. You know, I'll read it out loud to her at night. You know, we go to bed. Pretty soon I realized no, I don't think this is the book for that. I was like, Yeah, honey, I read read ahead or read a couple chapters less than I don't think this is that book. You should definitely read it. And I will definitely read it. But I think I want to be alone with this one.

Michael David Wilson 50:57
I've said this before, but my favorite chapter, I believe, is just one line. So he's detailed, all these horrific things that has happened to the girl. And then as the captain says, effectively, and I cannot repeat what happened next.

Josh Malerman 51:21
Man. Yeah. Yeah, that is Oh, man. Oh, man, I never wanted to reach into a book so, so much of my life and just like stop that mom from doing what she was doing. I've never wanted to reach like, like to leap into a book and rescue someone before. You know, like I did with that one. I wanted to like go into that house and open the door and just get her the hell out of there.

Michael David Wilson 51:46
And have you read the book by Mendel Johnson? Let's all play at the Adam's which was based on the same case as they go next door. No,

Josh Malerman 51:59
I've never heard of this.

Michael David Wilson 52:02
I mean, it's a little known book. Mendel Johnson only wrote one book. That was it. And yeah, it's based off the same case but just didn't get as much publicity. In fact, it's not I'm just looking it up now. It's not let's all play at the Adams it's let's go play at the atoms. And I mean it. It's a little bit more dated than the girl next door. But I would argue it's just as effective. So it's based on it's based on the same case, it's almost like like riffing off the same thing, but they've came to a slightly different conclusion. I read I read it after I'd read The Girl Next Door and still got a lot out of it.

Josh Malerman 52:58
Oh my god, I can't believe that you're telling me there's another way for me to go back into that story. I can't like and I also can't believe that I am probably going to do it. I'm probably going to read that book now. Um, what what what year did it come out? Is it before going on their store? Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 53:18
it came out in 1984 This is interesting. The girl next door came out in 1989. So let's go play at the Adams was actually five years previous.

Josh Malerman 53:34
Well, yeah. The one I want to read by him is one called Red. Have you read that one?

Michael David Wilson 53:40
I haven't read Red.

Josh Malerman 53:44
That one seems really interesting to me some some old old man and his dog or something. But you know, man, you know what this guy is going to move on to something else. He just has. Like I was saying with Stephen King and, and really all of our most of our favorites. And John ft. That have to It's like these guys have like their own beat. You know, they got like, their own rhythm or something. And I think I think that's like, first of all, I think that really all of us probably do it. I think the novel is sort of like the the least. Or it's a it's a medium where it's impossible to hide your rhythm. Even if you're trying to ape someone else. It's like, man, it's too revealing to hide in a novel. You don't have a drummer to hide behind. You don't have a movie star to read your lines. You know what I'm saying? It's like you and you may have a great editor but still this is your you're on display when you write a book, you know, in the tiniest ways, you know the whole thing where if you and I were given the same exact subject, well like Jack henchmen that other guy, they would come out like differently, right. So But Jack Ketchum whenever that beat is that rhythm it just honestly it makes you feel like you walked into a really like you walked into a room that you just shouldn't be You know

Michael David Wilson 55:06
Thank you for listening to the This Is Horror Podcast. We'll be reconvening with Josh for part three the final part of our interview. So with that said, have a great evening. And remember, there's still time to pre order The Visibly Filth by Nathan Ballingrud. Take care

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