Michael David Wilson 0:10
Welcome to the this is horror podcast. I'm your host, Michael Wilson, I'm joined, as always, by my co host, Dan Howarth

Dan Howarth 0:19
evening, how's it going?

Michael David Wilson 0:21
Yeah, it's alright. Thank you. About 11pm listen, and

Dan Howarth 0:28
just coming up to three o'clock in the afternoon here. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 0:30
So, as has been tradition since I've been in Japan, we have all your time zones covered, because Paul will be coming in with the morning

Dan Howarth 0:42
24 hour coverage from this is on. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 0:45
now I'm really excited about this podcast, because, as I said to you, our fair a head full of ghosts, has been my favorite read of the year so far. So I'm just looking forward to getting Paul on the podcast, talking to him a little bit about it and about the writing process generally.

Dan Howarth 1:04
Yeah, of course, yeah, definitely, certainly one to look forward to. Oh, yeah, and a name to look out for as well, for listeners that haven't heard of haven't heard of Paul, yeah, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:14
I think what's unique as well is already been picked up and optioned as a film only came out three days ago,

Dan Howarth 1:24
second of June. For those of you listening to this, yeah, you know, later in time.

Michael David Wilson 1:29
Yeah, good one. Then can you read the bio?

Dan Howarth 1:35
Yeah, of course. Paul Trembley is the author of the novel a head full of ghosts. His other novels include little sleep, no sleep, to Wonderland, swallowing a donkey's eye and floating boy and the girl who couldn't fly, which is CO written with Stephen Graham Jones. His fiction and essays have appeared in Los Angeles Times supernatural noir and numerous years best anthologies. He's the author of the short speculative fiction collections in the meantime and compositions for the young and old and the hard boiled dark fantasy novella City Pier above and be it above and below. He served as fiction editor of cheesine and as CO editor of fantasy magazine, and was also the CO editor of the creatures anthology with John langen Paul is currently on the board of directors for the Shirley Jackson awards as well.

Michael David Wilson 2:26
All right. Well, with that said, Shall we get him on the show?

Dan Howarth 2:30
Yeah, without a doubt. Horror.

Michael David Wilson 2:42
Okay. So to start with, can you give us a little bit of background into how you first started off as a writer and what you've done in your career so far?

Paul Tremblay 2:55
Well, I think I know I feel like I have a different path to becoming a writer than maybe most people. So I didn't really, you know, when I was a teenager or kid, you know, I read for school and things, but I wasn't a voracious reader on my own time. I grew up wanting to be Larry Bird, famous Boston Celtic basketball player. You know, just spend my days alone out in the backyard shooting hoops. But I wasn't fast enough, nor strong enough to be to be a great basketball player. So I went to college. I was actually a math major, and I didn't take my first English Lit class until the second semester senior year. But it sounds sort of cliche, but that class really sort of helped change my life, I guess, in terms of what I wanted to do in that within that class, I remember reading Joyce Carol Oates is, where are you going, where you've been, which remains one of my favorite short stories ever written. And I'll never forget reading it and thinking, wow, I didn't realize people wrote stuff like this. Shortly after that class, I went to the University of Vermont for two years to get my Master's in math while I was there, I just read all the Stephen King that I could. Then I moved on to Peter Straub and Clark Barker and more Joyce Carol Oates. And I know for those two years, I just fell in love with reading first, and by the end of it, I had like this itch to say, hey, maybe I'm gonna try to write a short story. So that was in the mid 90s, and for the rest of the 90s, I was kind of fooling around with writing a little bit, also fooling around with playing the guitar. You know, wanting to be in a punk band, but I quickly found out that I was a slightly better writer than a musician. Or I should say, I'm definitely a lot better writer than a musician now. So my first story in the year 2000 I managed to land an agent in 2006 with a novel that I haven't sold, but it did its job. It got me my agent, you know. And since then, geez, the head full of ghost is my fifth novel. I've also had a couple of short story collections published, and I help run the Shirley Jackson awards. So there's, there's, I don't know, 15 years. Is writing in a nutshell.

Dan Howarth 5:02
So, you know, a big fan of sleeping then, based on the bio that we've read for you and all the commitments and stuff that you have.

Paul Tremblay 5:08
Paul, no, yeah, people ask me all sounds like, how do you get it all done? And you know, you know, when I'm at school, I don't want to admit I'm sort of a half assed teacher, and I'm a half assed writer. I hope to someday use my whole ass writing. Slightly kidding, but yeah, I mean, I don't know. I feel like, if you want to get it done, you find a way, you know, I can't tell you, there's been many time where I've had my laptop out in, like, very strange places, with headphones on, you know, just drowning out what's going on behind me. So I guess that's one thing I have learned is a little bit of time management. I actually tend to work better when I don't have a lot of time for what I do. I do have a lot of time, it's like, oh, I can get it done. It actually becomes harder to get it done. So, yeah, time management and just I know the ability, much of the chagrin of my wife and kids, sometimes that when I am working to shut everything out, everything else out that's going on around me, short of a fire or emergency.

Dan Howarth 6:06
Well, Michael's, uh, you're a strong advocate on you of time management and routines and stuff. So I'm sure, sure Michael will be keen to kind of delve into the detail of that one. Paul with you.

Unknown Speaker 6:16
All right.

Michael David Wilson 6:17
Yeah. I think, I mean, I think when, when you are multitasking, and you do have so many different priorities, you know, it's essential, isn't it? Because if you don't manage your time, then you're not going to get all these projects done. And well, that's not going to end up too favorably for anyone.

Paul Tremblay 6:35
No, yeah, definitely. If you know, like on this particular day, there's only this hour, hour and a half where something can be done. I mean, it's not going to get done otherwise, so you have to do it then.

Michael David Wilson 6:47
Yeah, and you mentioned being a high school math teacher, yes. So obviously, I mean, you've been quite successful in genre and being in the maths department. Have you had any kind of backlash or conflict or even rivalries with the English department, you know, giving you like evil eyes, and it's like, you know, he's got all these novels published. And, yeah, I don't know who, who is in the English department of the high school. I mean, maybe, maybe that'll reveal

Paul Tremblay 7:23
something there no on the whole that, you know, they've been very supportive, you know. And more than you know, more than one of the teachers at the school has had me come into the talk through, like their freshman writing class or other classes. So that's been very cool. Yeah, you know, I will say that I feel like with some of them, you know, it's not blatant, but, you know, it can still sort of feel the, I don't know, the taint or stigma of genre fiction, as opposed to, you know, whatever is considered to be proper subjects of an English class. But I mean, that happens a lot less. That's a lot less sort of in my face than, you know, what is their sort of congenial support?

Dan Howarth 8:05
What's do the kids know that you're a horror writer. How's that gone down with them?

Paul Tremblay 8:11
They do, you know, I've definitely been talking about a head full of ghosts coming out, you know. And you know, there's with the excitement, the excitement of the book being auctioned by Focus features as well. Sort of hard not to talk about it. The kids at school, yeah, I know the kids you know, definitely seem to be into it. You know, I'm not out there trying to put the book into their hands, necessarily. That's yeah, especially the younger kids. I wouldn't, I wouldn't wish that on the younger students at the school. But no, I mean, I think it's important something as corny as it sounds, you know, I'd like to see myself as a role model, at least at that school. You know, here's an adult, an adult who's working as a math teacher, but he's also, you know, still pursuing his passion in writing and in reading and, you know, attempting to be what our school always talks about, the lifelong learner. I don't know. I feel like if I was in high school, I've been amazingly cool to have a math teacher who's publishing novels as well.

Dan Howarth 9:04
I think there's a certain irony there, because, you know, horror stories at my school mostly revolved around my maths homework. I mean, more often not, the marking would look like a massacre with the amount of red pen on them. So, so yeah, I think that's interesting. You know, there's a horror writer in the maths faculty at your school. That's pretty good.

Paul Tremblay 9:26
I've said more than once to get a cheap laugh, you know, during a reading or something, when it's mentioned, I'm a math teacher, you should say math. That's the real horror. And that's by far the biggest laugh I get from a crowd in every reading. Yeah,

Dan Howarth 9:38
I'd go along with that. Actually, my favorite numbers is is incredible.

Unknown Speaker 9:44
They can't be scary, no doubt, definitely.

Michael David Wilson 9:49
So the option to make a head full of ghosts into a film from Focus features so that's been picked up like in the. Last month or so, so there was an option for it, and, I mean, that must have created such an amount of excitement to get that happen before you've even released the novel.

Paul Tremblay 10:13
Oh, definitely, yeah. I mean, it was definitely very exciting. And I felt like it sort of happened really quickly as well, with my agent mentioning that focus features was interested. And then, like, you know, there was always chatter about now, now Tristar is interested, and, you know, the two of them made offers, and they were going back and forth. So definitely, I was this all sort of occurred in late April when they made the offer. So, yeah, or, you know, it was definitely very exciting. And then ultimately, it have an option, and to have a Robert team, team down he is the production company. It's Robert Downey Jr's production company. To be involved is, oh, it's just weird to talk about, you know, it's an option. So, you know, they haven't purchased the right yet, the rights yet. It's in development. There are two screenwriters currently working on adapting it. I've met them on Twitter. Just such a 2015 thing to say, and they seem like very great guys. So yeah, hopefully, hopefully it works out, you know, you know. But if nothing else, you're just having that happen before the book come out, certainly it was exciting. And I'm sure only helps, helps the sales of the book.

Michael David Wilson 11:16
So if it is made into a film, do you want to be involved in that process, or are you kind of looking to stay clear from it and let them get on with it?

Paul Tremblay 11:28
Stay Mostly clear? I mean, I kind of feel like, you know, books and movies are such different entities, and I don't know, you know, my novel itself is in some ways, just about influence and story and how stories affect other stories, you know. So a big part of me is, I, know, just flattered and really interested to see what someone else would do with this material. But I'd be lying if I if I'd said, you know, I want to see like, you know, radical changes or for something that I end up not liking very much, that would be disappointing. But I don't think I have much of a choice in the matter. But, you know, I feel like it's going to be, you know, their, you know, their movie, and you know, if they ask me for input, I'll be happy to give it to them.

Michael David Wilson 12:09
Well, I'll be interested to see how well it does translate to the screen. Because, I mean, the way that you've produced the novel, I mean, it really is quite experimental in terms of the format, because you've got the blog entries, you've got the reality television show, you've got people watching a reality television show within a reality television show. I mean, there's something almost House of Leaves about it in that respect, and I'm sure that probably isn't a coincidence, as I believe you're a big fan of that book.

Paul Tremblay 12:44
Oh, absolutely. It's, it's one of my favorite novels of all time. I'm proud to say I've been able to read it twice from start to finish, which I feel like is an accomplishment. Yeah. I mean, what was I gonna say? Oh, so in terms of, yeah, the movie, yeah, I really have no idea how they would structure it. I mean, it's fine because, you know, I think about like the blog parts were so much fun for me to write, you know, you know, as the writer, but I kind of know at the same time, there's no way. I don't know how they'd be able to to get those across within the movie. So those would probably make the cutting room floor, yeah. So I don't know, House of Reeves, absolutely one of my favorites.

Michael David Wilson 13:22
Yeah, well, I was thinking about how you could kind of get that blog feel within within a film context. I don't maybe they could do it in terms of, rather than have the protagonist, have a blog, have a have a radio show, and then that would kind of solve the problem, because you couldn't really have a have a television show unless she's had some sort of facial surgery to disguise there, right there, which I think might be a little bit extreme in the circumstances.

Paul Tremblay 13:55
Yeah, that's great. I was actually thinking, you know, because I was thinking about as a cow, maybe instead of, you know, it's blog commentary, she has a YouTube sort of site where she actually narrates over a bunch of clips of the things that she's talking about. But then, you know, as a if you're making a movie, you'd have to get permission to show clips from the actresses and from other movies, so that would probably be, probably difficult or and tenuous to do. But like I said, who knows? So I'm you know again, I'm excited to see what you know, how they try to approach the different point of views within, I guess, the singular point of view without giving out, giving too much away,

Michael David Wilson 14:33
yeah. I mean, the book is an absolute treasure trove of references, so that could be quite an expensive project, but, yeah, like, I mean, I had a lot of fun, kind of looking out for them and watching them crop up. And now I've read the book once, I kind of want to go, go back to it and reread it. Just, yeah, almost analytically, looking for, like, Okay, well. Just a reference to to each film or each book, and just see how many you've got in there, because

Paul Tremblay 15:07
there's a lot. No The Difference is, and I think my publisher is going to let me do a little bit more self indulgence for the trade paperback. I was toying with the idea of adding, like, a sort of, like a liner notes section at the end to talk about even some of the other sort of Easter egg slash references that are in the book that you know, I don't explicitly call out already in the blog pages, because there is quite a bit that you know, I didn't explicitly write about within the blog commentary. Just really, for instance, like just about all the character names, their last names are, are, you know, taken from other characters, from other horror movies or the horror books. That's

Michael David Wilson 15:50
fantastic. And like, I mean, I like when these, these nods, or these patterns kind of come out in in books and films and any sort of media. I just adds that. It kind of adds another depth to it, but it also just make, makes it a kind of more fun process, and obviously gets that replayability value, which kind of something you'd want, right? Yeah,

Paul Tremblay 16:15
definitely. I mean, it's funny. I mean, and especially within, you know, genre, within horror in particular. I mean, for those that you know that that do read horror fiction, I think there's a clear love or understanding of the history of it. So every time you write something that's in that genre, you are, in a way, adding to you know that centuries long conversation, you know, that started with folklore, oral tales, and Grendel, you know, up through Poe, you know, Shirley Jackson, and to, you know what, what's being put today. So I don't know if you think about it that way. I just think it's a really cool thing to be able to take a part in that conversation. And I wanted to sort of reflect that in this book. And how you know the history of horror, you know, affects the story. It affects the story. In particular,

Michael David Wilson 17:00
do you often find yourself rereading or re watching classic horror? I i think it's it's difficult because obviously, like, it's enjoyable to revisit a favorite, but there's so much good stuff coming out today that it can be difficult to justify revisiting something because opposed to just jumping into a fresh new world?

Paul Tremblay 17:24
No, absolutely. And, you know, just from the practicality of, you know, time commitments, it's much easier for me to rewatch sort of classic horror, as opposed to, you know, taking the time to reread, you know, a favorite book. I wish I had more time to reread my favorites. So I do, you know, see my favorite movies a lot more often than I than I do say, you know, go and reread I Am Legend, you know, just for example, you know, but I have read Shirley Jackson's. We will always live in the we have always lived in the castle. We will always live in the castle. Sorry, I wrote a short story with the tweet title so I was in my mush mouth, mix the two, but I've read that novel, you know, three or four times. Oh yeah, horror movies definitely. I mean, my my brother, my younger brother and I are both huge horror fans, and that's one of the things that we really connect over. So we're always talking about what's good that just came out, or just call each other and recite lines from our favorite movies randomly to each other. Yeah? So, no, I'm definitely rewatching a lot of my favorites whenever I can. Where

Dan Howarth 18:30
did the horror journey start for you? Paul, what was, what's kind of your earliest horror memory?

Paul Tremblay 18:37
Yeah, it's funny. I even though I was or am, and always have been a horror fan. I was such a big, Scaredy Cat my my mother was just making fun of me the other night at the release party that we had for a head full of ghosts and talking about how, you know, I, you know, I would make my brother go up the stairs before me first, you know, as sort of the offering. I would sleep with stuffed animals and covers around my head. But I guess my the earliest it was movies. Growing up just outside of Boston, Massachusetts, on Saturday afternoons. There was a program called creature double feature. When it was on Saturday afternoon, they would always show two horror movies, usually one was a Japanese kaiju kind of film. So I'd see all the Godzilla movies, Rodin etc. And they also showed a lot of the hammer classics as well, and that was always terrifying, even the Godzilla stuff I loved. It was just fun to watch giant monsters stomp on things. But Christopher Lee and the Hammer Horror films, really, I had to watch, like, between my fingers or just part way, so that, that's my sort of earliest memories of horror, an introduction to it. And that came my brother, who was five years younger than me. But even though he was the younger sibling, you know, he'd be watching Texas Chainsaw Massacre and stuff that I wouldn't even dare to watch until I was in my, you know, 20s, safely in my 20s.

Dan Howarth 19:57
No, it's always interesting to hear kind of, how do. Different authors kind of arrive in the genre. I mean, it sounds like, you know, whilst you're always a fan, you know, if you're watching certain things in your 20s, maybe they didn't influence you as early as, you know, as other authors or other filmmakers have had that influence. So it's just interesting to see how kind of people's exposure to certain things at certain parts of their lives have affected, you know, the creative output that they they come to bring to the table as they as they get older, it's always interesting to find that out, I think, as as an interview,

Paul Tremblay 20:31
yeah, absolutely. You know, it's funny. It was a movie that was on that old, you know, program, creature double feature, the British movie. And it was, I believe, hammer did it, but it's not usually classically referred to as a hammer movie. In the United States, it was called 50 million years to Earth, I believe. But in the UK, it was called Quatermass in the pit. And that movie, I felt like, was on, like every other month, on creature double feature. I just remember seeing it in the image of the end of the glowing alien, was something that's always stuck with me. And I lost track of that movie, you know, for decades, but I had that image, and it wasn't until, like, within the last five years, like, where I actively, hey, what was that movie? You know, I went and sought it out and found a DVD copy on eBay, and I've since been able to watch it two or three times, and I was very happy to see that I still that I enjoyed it as an adult, and got so much, you know, so many more different things out of it than when I was a, you know, when I watched it, when I was a child, and I was just a static to find out that John Carpenter, apparently, you know, solo that movie, his movie, Prince of Darkness, is basically a direct sort of response to greater mass in the pit. So, yeah, I've always, like, as you talked about, I've always been interested and influenced within the genre. To me, it's just, it's a fascinating it's a fascinating part of genre. How, you know, the older stories continue to inform the new stories, and now the new stories. I hope that's what I try and do a little bit with my book. The new stories can even actually go back and inform the older stories a little bit, if that makes sense.

Dan Howarth 22:09
No, no, it does. It definitely does. It's just, yeah, I was just thinking about, when you say about, re watching your favorite films, re rereading your favorite books. There's always a an inherent danger there as well. Isn't there that? You know, if you read something 1015, 20 years down the line, you look back at it and think, oh, you know, it's, this isn't quite the film I thought it was, you know, it didn't quite hit the mark that I always thought it did. So, I mean, yeah, I'm kind of with you sometimes, you know, the time that keeps you away from rereading previous favorites or re watching them is sometimes a blessing, because you can preserve those moments, you know, those films per certain moment in your life. And you know, there's something kind of sentimental about that as well. Really,

Paul Tremblay 22:52
yeah, definitely. No, there is a danger. I mean, in all ways, not just in reading and writing, is, you know, there's a danger in nostalgia, but the same time, I don't know, I think some nostalgia is healthy that you know, helps remind you who you were, if that makes sense, or who you used to be, and sort of how you've progressed from there. Yeah, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 23:10
Well, as we're talking about movies, it seems like a good time to jump in and talk about the Exorcist, which is obviously the most over influence, I would say, on a head full of ghosts. And so firstly, was it the book or the film that you experienced first? And what are your initial memories? And then to add a third part to that question, which do you prefer?

Paul Tremblay 23:39
The film was what I experienced first. You know, I grew up Catholic for part of my life. I made it to first confessions. Was that, like seven, eight years old, maybe nine years old, and then stopped going to church after that. But in a weird I've been in and around Catholic sort of schools my whole life, you know, the college I went to as a Catholic school, the high school that I teach it now is a Catholic school. It's almost just by happenstance, because as I grow older, I become certainly more agnostic slash atheist, if there's such a phrase as more agnostic slash atheist. So I first saw the exorcist. I was pretty young, so certainly, you know, I'm still suffering from the reverberations of Catholic guilt and and, you know, it was just viscerally, you know, an extremely effective movie, along with just hearing all the legends about the movie from my parents and their friends and hearing how this was the scariest movie ever made. I mean, sometimes the build up can lead to disappointment, but in this case, the build up really sort of heightened my anxiety before seeing it and it worked. I read the book much later, probably, geez, probably in my late 20s when I first read the book, which I definitely enjoyed, but I tend to be hooked to whatever i. See first. We see the movie first. If I see the book first, that tends to be what I even though the book is normally better than the movie, I tend to, yeah, that whatever I see first is my sort of favorite, my favorite presentation, that material. I guess

Dan Howarth 25:14
it's interesting. You mentioned Catholicism, because, well, my mum's still a very devout Catholic. And I was brought the same way. And she was, she was talking, you know, we talk about films and books and stuff. And she was saying The Exorcist, you know, was something that really kind of frightened her, and how it kind of tapped into, into her beliefs, really, of, you know, obviously, as a somebody who's a religious person, you believe in life after death. And for her to think of that life after death as something other than pleasant, was something she said that really took the wind out of her sails for for quite a while, if, if not, renewed her faith even more. So, yeah, I think it's interesting that you bring that up, because that's a that's an effect that I've I've heard other people talk about as well. So it's quite interesting to hear that from the mouth of a fellow lapsed Catholic.

Paul Tremblay 26:08
It's certainly, I mean, it sort of wears its conservative, you know, Christian values on its sleeve as a movie, which is fine, I mean, because it works. I mean, it stays consistent to its vision, you know. And I think it's all you can ask of any movie is to if you're going to set some parameters about the world or the universe that you're presenting, you get a you get a play those out to the very bit of red. And you know, The Exorcist is unwavering and what it believes, and you know what it shows you. So it's certainly effective. So as an adult, looking back on the movie, one of the you know, and someone who you know, after you know, decades of reading horror, writing horror, and for lack of better term, studying it, not not in a official capacity, but you know, the the failing of The Exorcist, if I'm allowed to be I don't know. So not humbled to say that that movie or book has a failing is, I think, in its very ending. And I'm not talking about, you know, Father Karis going down the stairs. I'm talking about, I guess, would more be more like the post ending where, you know, Reagan and her mom are happy and healthy. They move back to LA it's all smiles gone in this heaven. Everything's great again. And to me, especially as an adult, it just, it rings. It just rings. So, you know, as not true. Like, if people were to go through something like that, they would be irrevocably changed. You know, nothing would be the same. And I found myself. I found myself wishing I want to know, like, how they how do they deal with what they just went through? How do they deal with that after the fact? So, in the very early stages of coming up with a head full of ghosts. I wanted to answer, try to answer that question, you know, what happens after the exorcism or the attempted exorcism? And in my book, I wanted to make what happened after the exorcism actually be the ultimate horror, or the worst thing that happens. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 27:59
I mean, I think that as well, I was reading the after filming, just the kind of aftermath that Linda Blair was obviously quite traumatized, which he would be if you know, like you're a little girl, and then you've been transformed into, essentially, the face of evil, right? Absolutely,

Dan Howarth 28:21
which PTSD after filming, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 28:25
which, I think, as as you're saying, I guess the experience for her as an actress is more in line with, obviously, what the experience would be like for for these characters. You know, it's definitely not a happily ever after, if you were to kind of look at it in terms of a logical progression, and I'd imagine for the family as well, even though you know that, you know everything's meant to be okay, you're going to be haunted by that image as to how Reagan was, and you're gonna wonder, will will she transform again? Will she be possessed again?

Dan Howarth 29:08
Well, what always made me wonder about it was, you know, like, there's that old cliche of when, you know, you bring your new girlfriend home and your mum gets out the baby photos. Is her mom gonna get out the picture? Oh, look at her childhood. What. What an absolute horror she was, you know, Oh, mom, put those away, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 29:26
This is a bad angle in her, you know, her head is over her back. This is her awkward phase,

Michael David Wilson 29:36
yeah? Well, I guess if you were to say she was a naughty little devil, you'd be taking that quite

Unknown Speaker 29:42
literally, dude. Oh, dear

Michael David Wilson 29:46
my like, bad puns have set me off. In fact, I

Dan Howarth 29:53
anything that isn't a pun would be great.

Michael David Wilson 29:55
I had a load. I had a load of puns that came into my head. Before the interview, I wanted to ask Paul, you know, what possessed you to write a handful of ghosts? What was the ghost of the idea? But, well, I was not gonna unleash them, but it's happened now, hasn't it? In the spirit of things? Oh, God. So on a serious note, what was the initial idea behind a head full of ghosts, and what was the impetus for writing that particular novel?

Paul Tremblay 30:35
It's funny. For most stories, they kind of like maybe occur to you after like a slow attrition of detail, or maybe you're thinking about like a snippet or an image for a few days or weeks. But you know, it was February of 2013 and I was 100 pages into another novel that was going to be called Charles Manson doesn't answer my letters, and it was sort of be like a quirky he was gonna mix comedy and horror, but it was about an eighth grader who wanted to end the world because he not because he was necessarily an evil kid, but he felt that humans suffered too much, so he wanted to end their suffering anyway. I was just doing a bunch of reading, all the reading I could, in different horror subjects, you know, that related to apocalyptic sort of fiction or concepts. And I came across centipede press's collection of essays about the film The Exorcist. It's a part of their film series. They do some excellent books. So anyway, I was reading this book with an eye towards my apocalyptic novel, but I started reading all these essays about The Exorcist, sort of. Some of it was politically deconstruction. What happened? You know, one of the essays was about how the movie itself supposedly based on a true story, and that true story was a fraud, so much so that that the supposed priest and kid that they that the exorcism was based on that it can be found, they weren't necessarily real. So I just find that really interesting. And it sort of occurred to me at that point, huh? I thought about the market a little bit, which is strange, because I never think about the market normally, but I was like, there's been really, there's been literary updates of the vampire. There's been a quite a few recent, very good literary updates of the zombie and the werewolf. So no one's really done an exorcism novel or possession novel. I mean, Hollywood has pumped out a ton of possession stories, you know, within the last 10 years. You know, the last Exorcist, the paranormal activity movies, possession. That was Sam raimi's Jewish possession movie. So Hollywood's done a ton of stuff. You know, most of it was like PG 13, kind of fluffy takes on it. But no one's really, I thought, no one's really done a book on the like, a possession book in a long time. So I don't know. I figured, why not try it? Am I sort of inspired by those essays that I read my my sort of take was going to be, how about a secular exorcism novel, where it's really going to start off from like a skeptical point of view that exorcisms are sort of bunk. This girl is probably just, not just schizophrenic, to minimize her suffering, but she has schizophrenia, is having a psychotic break, and a lot of the issues are going to crop up from other people's perceptions of her based on their own sort of emotional and religious baggage.

Michael David Wilson 33:27
So that's where it started. Well, I really like the ambiguity as to, you know, whether it is a literal possession or whether this is a book dealing with mental illness. And often for me, those make the best kind of possession and supernatural films or books, because I think when you kind of lay your colors down and you say, Okay, this is definitely a possession, or there is definitely a supernatural element, then for me, you've started to explain it and then explaining it, you've removed some of the mystique. And you know, the danger of that is you might lose half the audience depending on which explanation you go for. Yeah, absolutely.

Paul Tremblay 34:15
I mean, so many. I mean, I don't think every horror story has to be full of ambiguity, but so many of my favorites are, I mean to me, what terrifies me the most now as an adult, it is sort of that ambiguity that I want to try to make this book treat as realistically as possible, and have, if there is supernatural things going on, have it be, you know, question, have it be subtle? Have it be in the shadows. Have the reader asking me, Is this supernatural, or is this not? Because, I mean, I know to try to exist in that liminal space in between reality and in reality. I think that's where horror lives. Yeah. So I definitely tried to keep that balance going through the whole book. It's not a spoiler to. Anyone has read it, but it's gonna you're gonna have to decide for yourself whether or not you know she was schizophrenic, having a psychotic break, or if she's possessed. Because I do not expressly answer that, you know in the novel, no.

Michael David Wilson 35:13
And I think because of that, I started thinking there was almost a comparison to be drawn between a head full of ghosts and the baba Duke, which was one of my favorite movies of last year. Hopefully you liked it too. Otherwise, I've just insulted your novel.

Paul Tremblay 35:31
I know I absolutely love that movie. I think I thought it was great just from start to finish, it's look, it's feel. I thought it was so brave, and how it portrayed being a parent or being a mother. You know, they allowed her to do and say some really ugly things, but things that all parents, speaking as a parent, have felt in their darkest hours. So no, I couldn't have liked that movie more. And

Michael David Wilson 35:58
again, in in what I guess you could simplify as a a religion versus science, or religion versus illness, kind of battle you even had that between the Barrett family with the father and the mother. And I mean, I mean saying that isn't isn't a spoiler, because again, like it just becomes obvious within the first few pages, but, but in doing that, you're then creating an internal, internal riff amongst the family, which I just think adds to that action and adds to just the kind of drama and the suspense within the book.

Paul Tremblay 36:40
Oh, sure. I mean, I mean, just even sort of the old saw that, you know, at the or at any dinner table, but especially at the family dinner table, you know, you can't talk religion or politics, because even if you know, even if you you know, everyone in your family is, you know, a member of a Catholic family, not everyone's going to have the same level of belief or same level of commitment. I mean, there's going to be those natural, familial, you know, fractures. And, you know, I wanted those to add to the pressure upon the family. You know, everything, adding continually adding pressure until ultimately it all sort of crumbles apart. It is.

Michael David Wilson 37:16
I've had a faux pas to talk about religion and politics, as you say at the meal table, but apparently it's embraced to talk about it on Facebook, because I see posts about it all the time. Yeah,

Paul Tremblay 37:30
and we can do it on podcasts too. This is where it can be done,

Michael David Wilson 37:34
yeah. Well, well, I mean, just like your book, nobody has, well, actually, no, I guess you have, like, put your colors down because you said you're an agnostic atheist. But in in saying you're agnostic, you're still not quite sure either way, so we're okay. We haven't seen anyone off.

Paul Tremblay 37:54
No, yeah, definitely. I mean, look. I mean, I don't have all the answers. I've also sort of jokingly said to people, half jokingly said that I'm an atheist by day that night, when my head hits the pillow, you know, other stuff creeps in. Usually it's my fear of what's under the bed or what's in the

Michael David Wilson 38:11
closet. It is funny how even you know, the the act of it being dark or it being it being night, does tap into your fears and make you more susceptible to question things that like, as you say in the day, you just be completely rationalizing. Yeah,

Paul Tremblay 38:30
I know absolutely I mean, I mean to me, that's another sort of fundamental aspect of horror that I, you know, find fascinating. Interesting is, you know how much you know the emotion of horror, or, you know the feeling of dread, you know still controls our lizard brains. You know, as a you know as a math teacher, I know, statistically speaking, that you know flying on a plane, for example, is, you know, is safer than driving, far safer than driving. In fact, you know, statistically speaking, if this is one of my favorite stats. If, let's say a terrorist group were to be able to take one plane a day and crash into the ground, it would still be safer to fly than to drive. So I can sort of understand that rationally. But you know, when I get on a plane, I'm still, you know, nervous and twitchy, and, you know, hoping against hope that everything still works. You know, even though rashly, I know I'm being silly in terms of my fear management, for lack of a better phrase, but the lizard brain is just, you know, it's hard to it's hard to overcome. You know, I still run up my dark basement stairs. Sometimes. There's no good reason to do that, but it's just there.

Dan Howarth 39:41
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's still afraid of flying anyway.

Michael David Wilson 39:44
Well, I was gonna say I completely relate to that. And at the end of the month, I've got to take a 12 hour flight from Tokyo to London. So ideal time to be reminded of that. I'm sure you'll be fine, yeah, oh yeah. Statistically speaking, it looks like a. Be all right, just don't get into a car and drive myself to the airport that's gonna go. But I, I mean, obviously, I guess with that particular example, it's, it's that lack of control, isn't it? Because unless we're the pilot, then we've got, I guess we, we believe that when we're the driver of the car that we've got a little bit more control than we have, you know, as a passenger on a flight, even though, obviously, as a driver, you're not going to be in control of other people plowing into you right

Paul Tremblay 40:36
now, I'm not going to be able to get my car today. Thanks.

Michael David Wilson 40:41
So, right, you know, you've, you've made me forgetting on a plane at the end of the month. So as I said before, you referenced an awful lot of horror movies and horror books. Now, did a lot of research go into the novel. Or is this more just, I guess, a build up of being a horror a lifelong horror fan.

Paul Tremblay 41:12
You know, a lot of it was just from being a lifelong horror fan. I did well. I mentioned the essays on the exorcist that I'd read, actually, to help me get the idea for the novel. You know, there was really only, like, a couple of movies that I hadn't seen that I did watch, for the for the, you know, the writing of the book. One of them was The Last Exorcism, which was decent until the ending couldn't stand the ending. But yeah, now, mostly was just because, you know, movie book, horror nerd, I have all that stuff in my head.

Michael David Wilson 41:44
So given you've watched so many, what would you say are the top exorcism movies? Top

Paul Tremblay 41:51
exorcism movies? Well, I think, I still think that the original exorcist would have to be the best. It's hard. It's still, it's just very powerful. It is amazing, even now, like how visceral it is, even, you know, with, you know, the level of effects they had in 1970 Well, it was like it was, it came out 73 so when they were making it 72 Yeah, I think just the level of effects are still, you know, amazingly incredible. I guess the sneaky one on there would be, I would consider the first paranormal activity and exorcism movie or a possession movie. I should say, yeah, yeah. She is, in fact, possessed by, you know, the demon of the house at the very end. And I thought that movie was quite clever and well done and effective. Yeah, I'm trying to think of what other ones I think mostly I was sort of just sort of follow along by the formula. So, I mean, they have their moments, but I guess I had to pick two favorites. It would be those two. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 42:50
I'm totally with you on those. And, I mean, I think, I think sometimes paranormal activity gets quite a hard press, or can be quite underrated, particularly within the community. Maybe, maybe that's because of the amount of kind of unoriginal spin offs. But I I think, and I kind of think this with saw as well. If they'd have kept it with one film, it would have just been an absolute classic.

Paul Tremblay 43:21
Yeah. I mean, I do think all the like the Paranormal Activity sequels, like one each year certainly didn't, doesn't help, sort of the luster of the original. And I feel like the hype that it received, similar to the hype that Blair Witch Project received, for whatever reason, turns people off as well, which, you know, I love the Blair Witch Project. I think it's fantastic, man. I guess there's also the sub genre of, sort of occult movies, or satanist movies. You know, there was a ton of them in the 1970s those were always on when I was a kid, randomly, which is sort of strange, you know, movies like The Omen, or was at Ride with the Devil. Ride with Satan. I'm terrible at. Remember, that was this weird movie with Peter Fonda, this forum in an RV, and they happen to be vacationing in the desert, and they see, you know, a satanic ritual sacrifice. And they spend the rest of the movie on the run from these Satanists. Oh, and as a kid, it was horrifying, you know, just, you know, all the people in the dark purple robes, and the, you know, sort of the zealot look in their eyes. And as an adult, actually, that's what frightens me the most, as well as sort of zealotry.

Dan Howarth 44:31
Yeah, it's is scary in any format, things like that, isn't it really, even if it's in a fictional sense, or, you know, in the very real sense that you sometimes see on the news. I'll just

Paul Tremblay 44:40
say, yeah, no, absolutely. Like, you know, sort of groupthink in any form. You know, Michael was mentioning, you know, Facebook earlier, and there is sort of this, there is this built in groupthink mentality, you know, that's literally sort of algorithmed in, if that's a word, to Facebook, you know, both Facebook and Google, you know, they're free to users. So obviously you guys know that they sell our they sell our information, they sell our data, like what we click on, and to keep us as happy consumers both Google and Facebook. I hope I'm not just like preaching obvious information to people, but just in case, I'm not you know, Google and Facebook actually tailor the feeds and the ads, and in the case of Google, what links show up first, they tailor that to your clicking history. So as an example, if I were to Google Search President Obama, and then Ultra right wing neocon were to Google Search President Obama, our two Google search pages would be totally different, tailored to what we want to have. And I don't feel like I try to sort of confront that a little bit with the headphone ghost in her sort of deconstruction of what's going on, you know, the idea of how much information and misinformation affects us, and what we see, especially in this digital age where, you know, we think we're getting the information that we've been searching out, but it's already been tailored or twisted before we even get to it, in some ways. Yeah,

Dan Howarth 46:08
I mean, that's something I've said before on this podcast. I'm still waiting for the ultimate kind of social media, internet age horror movie or or book, to be honest, as there is so many kind of unsettling ideas, like the ones that you've just brought up, that, you know, maybe the 1984 of the digital age is kind of what I feel like I'm waiting for sometimes. Yeah, you know, I think, I think that is the next great novel waiting to be written. Obviously, it's not going to be me that writes it, but I'm looking forward to whoever turns out. All right, I

Unknown Speaker 46:41
gotta get a pen. I gotta write this down.

Michael David Wilson 46:45
I mean, with regards to Google, and since they they were found, since they were founded, they they've been tinkering with the algorithms, and it's only been in the last year or so that they've kind of change them to such a point that that now what you get as your Google search results isn't necessarily the same as what another person will get. Whereas it was only a few years ago where a Google search result would be, you know, you would get the results wherever you Googled from, on whatever platform, whatever computer. So I guess it is, it may seem a little bit more invasive. Now, I mean, obviously the argument that Google will present is they're trying to be helpful, but, but then is it? Is it helpful if they're then just giving you websites and things that you necessarily know about already that doesn't sound too helpful? No.

Paul Tremblay 47:49
I mean, you know, and as as a teacher, I mean, I find it you know, especially you know, frightening slash disconcerting, because you know everything we know about education, everything we know about how people learn. It's almost pretty much unanimously, unanimously accepted that the best way to learn is to be confronted, to be confronted by ideas that challenge what you believe to be true, or challenge your beliefs. And that's how you learn. That's how you make a decision for yourself. So if you're going to be on Google and Facebook and you're never going to be confronted by something that goes against what you believe. You know, what chance do we have to actually, not only, you know, actually have, like, real learning, but you know, what chance do we have? What chance does empathy have? What's the future of empathy if we're not able to sort of see, you know, the other viewpoint or the other side? Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 48:36
and I think talking about that, and talking about the digital age and social media, it's almost going in a a direction where, I mean, you talk about empathy, you talk about emotion, but so many people are almost deciding to to interact socially, so online, rather than just, you know, real social, just get out the house and actually see people and talk to people, have a real conversation. I mean, it may be, it's completely ironic to bring that up on a podcast via Skype, when I'm in Japan, Dan's in the UK, you're in the US,

Paul Tremblay 49:22
right? I was gonna say, Well, you know, then we would have to, like, get in our cars and planes. We already decided that was a bad idea.

Dan Howarth 49:31
It's more too dangerous to talk in person. That's the problem, absolutely.

Michael David Wilson 49:37
Well, that's derailed that then, hasn't it?

Dan Howarth 49:40
Yeah, sorry, right, derailed your plans for us to become offline friends when you move home. Yeah, I'm kidding. We have met ourselves. You know, we haven't met in person. It's okay,

Michael David Wilson 49:57
God. Um, so I actually revisited the interview that we ran with you on this is horror, like the print version, and you were talking about the planning of a head full of ghosts, and it sounded like there was a real contrast in your planning and preparation compared to what you put into the little sleep which, which sounded like a pretty meticulous, I think it was a 10 page draft, whereas with full of ghosts, you knew there had to be three acts, you knew the ending, and you just went for it. Is that just something you think that came with with, obviously, the experience of writing and writing a novel that you now have or, or was the idea in your head almost so fully formed you just wanted to get on with it and write it down.

Paul Tremblay 50:57
I think part of it was just the type of novel that each one, each of those books were so, you know, the little sleep is a mystery novel, besides being sort of other things. But I feel like as a writer, the thing I have the most difficult time with is plot. Even as a reader, it's sort of down on my list of interests. I'm much more interested in character, in mood and even the style those things come to me before plot as an interest, but I knew if I was writing a mystery novel at its heart, I wasn't good enough with plot to be able to make it up as I go. So I wanted to have figured out what sort of the mystery and whatever resolution it would have would be before I started the little sleep. I mean, still, things changed as I went, and that was kind of fun, but it was nice to have that, at least the plot roadmap as I went. And with the headphone ghost, it was a different type of novel. It wasn't going to be as plot heavy. I felt like, once I had, all right, what's going to happen, you know, before the reality show, what happens during the reality show? What happens afterwards. I felt like I could be more organic with just almost like the vignettes of the scenes of the family in each of those sections as it went, I did keep a little notebook handy, and I would before I got too far, you know, I would scratch out ideas or what would happen and what would happen next. But it is kind of fun to work that way. It doesn't work for every novel I actually the novel I'm working on now. It's due in a few weeks. I did write a summary for it first, because it's a little bit more plot heavy, but it's also, it's changing actually quite a bit too as I go. So I know every book has been a little bit different for me in that way. Do

Dan Howarth 52:41
you have any details on the next book that you can share with us at the moment?

Paul Tremblay 52:47
Yeah, I guess it opens with three teenage boys, seventh grade, going on eighth grade. So what they're like, 13 going on 14. They're in a suburban state park that's actually somewhat close to where I live in Massachusetts. And they snuck out at night, and then one of the boys didn't come back with the two other boys. And it sort of goes from there. It's going to be, definitely, I feel like a quieter novel than a head full of ghosts, a little bit more, lot more characters involved. I know, I have to admit it's been I think, I think it'll be all right. I hope it'll be alright by the time I'm done. But it's definitely a different book. It's one I've been fighting myself a little bit with as I've been going but I feel like fighting myself in a good way. I've been trying some things that I've never really tried before at novel length, so hopefully I can pull it off. We'll see. Oh,

Dan Howarth 53:42
it sounds interesting, definitely. What kind of when do you have to kind of have that delivered by? Have you got a time frame? I mean, that seems ridiculous, you know, talking the week that full of ghost comes out about your next novel. But, you know, I know that. I know that once this lands and people, people read the book, and, you know, once your name kind of guests out there, people are always going to be clamoring for more. So you know, hence why we're asking, really, right? I

Paul Tremblay 54:05
believe it's contractually due July 1. Yeah, just the rough draft, and I'm in pretty good shape for that. I think I just finished my school year is over at school, so even though I'll be doing like, ear readings and stuff like that for most of this month, I won't be teaching. So there is the danger, as we talked about, about having too much time, but it's a pretty big deadline over my head, so I'm sure I'll get it done, or I'll just go driving around playing the statistical roulette.

Dan Howarth 54:37
I'm sure we can't ever be that serious. So just, just while we're talking about the novel coming out, what's Can you describe like? You know, obviously, as an author, you kind of strive to complete your novel. You've, you've had it accepted and published, what is, what is that feeling like of getting your novel out there, and then do. The promo and the interviews and the readings, kind of what you know, where are you now? Are you? Are you buzzing? Are you apprehensive? What? What's the mood?

Paul Tremblay 55:09
Ah, jeez. I mean, I tend to be a neurotic mess, and I feel like I feel all those things at once. I mean, there's definitely been some incredible highs with this book, but it's hard not to be paranoid as well it's like, ah, who's going to review this? Is it selling enough? Is it, you know, getting read by the right people, etc. By it's, I mean, it's when you put something out in public, like that. I mean, I think it's hard not to feel that way. Feel that a little paranoia. It's just, you know, you got to try to manage it as best you can. I mean, this book is really, it's been the most exciting thing that's happened to me professionally. A lot of ways. After no sleep to Wonderland, my second novel that featured the private detective came out. The publisher, the publisher who is not my publisher now, didn't put a very big push behind it at all. Amazon was fighting with Macmillan at the time as well. So the first week the book was officially out, you couldn't even buy it on Amazon, which didn't help things. So that second book just just died on the vine, you know, and that really it threw me for a big loop, both just in terms of my own confidence and professionally. And I have to say, I sort of sank into like a morass of self pity and bitterness. For like, a year, I had a really hard time just doing anything creatively for a while, and when I finally stopped feeling sorry for myself, and, you know, shut out those feelings and learned that, you know, you can't, you just can't be that way and be able to be a good writer. You know, I came out of it. You know, I never would have been able to write a head full of ghosts if I was sort of still in that headspace. So when I sold the head full of ghosts, as exciting as it was, I felt it's a huge sigh of relief as well. I felt like I wrote the best book I could, and I just wanted to believe that if I did that, no matter what had happened with the previous books, that I would still be able to sell the book. And happily, that was the case. So the selling of the book, without a doubt, has been the most satisfying sort of aspect of my professional career so far, you know, and everything else has been just the cherry on top. I mean, the the, you know, getting the movie option deal is just, you know, I don't know, it's almost surreal to talk about or think about, and I'm just really excited. I'm really excited for people to read the book. I think it's going to mess people's heads and and I think people are going to dig it sounds incredible, yeah. And sorry, as far as you know, the readings go that those are a lot of fun. I mean, it's, obviously, it's an ego stroke or an ego boost to see people become, you know, have people come, you know, to the room that you're reading, and I want to hear you read. I mean, come on, that's fun, as long as people show up. I've done readings where maybe, like one or two have show up. So, I mean, that does happen as well. That's not as fun.

Dan Howarth 57:54
So, so for those of our listeners who would have the opportunity to come and hear you read, you know, we've, kind of read about Chuck Paul and IK and people throwing up at his readings, and when he reads guts and stuff. And Josh maliman was on here talking about how he makes his readings interactive. What's Do you have, like a USP, you know, other than obviously, the strength of you you're writing, what's you know, here's your chance to kind of sell yourself, to bring the readers out of the woodwork and off Facebook to come and hear, yeah, well, I

Paul Tremblay 58:25
mean, I do think, you know, all the years, I'm not going to name them, to age myself, but all the years, you know, standing in front of a classroom definitely gives me a comfort level. And, you know, standing up in front of people that maybe the average person certainly doesn't have. I don't know, my readings have become, I want to say theatrical, but certainly a little bit a lot more. Yeah, I'll say theatrical as I've been doing them, sort of inspired by Michael Cisco, who's the best live reader that I've ever seen. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I do well with engaging with the audience, asking them questions, making them be a part of it. I don't do anything too crazy besides the flaming sword eating. I say that for the end.

Dan Howarth 59:08
Yeah, we've heard on Twitter all about that, so

Paul Tremblay 59:13
I can write that down too. It sounds like it takes, that takes a lot of practice, though, like that. I don't have time for that. So you mentioned those. You mentioned guts, though, I think it since come out that those were plants, people pretending to be sick in the audience. But, yeah, it's

Dan Howarth 59:31
a bit of a shame. It works. It's an Yeah, it's very much an image that, you know, I like to maintain as being real, you know, be able to write something that has that effect on somebody is surely what every writer aims for, although not necessarily vomit.

Michael David Wilson 59:53
Thank you for listening to this is horror podcast that was episode 47 with Paul Tremblay. We'll be back with Paul Tremblay very soon for part two of our interview. And in the meantime, do go out and buy a head full of ghosts by Paul Tremblay. So best novel that I've read this year, so I think you're all gonna really enjoy it. And with that said, That is all from the this is horror podcast this week. Next week, we'll be back with Shaun Hutson, it's gonna get a little bit Larry,

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