Michael David Wilson 0:10
Welcome to This Is Horror. I'm your host, Michael David Wilson. And I'm joined by my co host, Bob Pastorella. How's it going, Bob?

Bob Pastorella 0:21
I'm doing pretty good, Michael, how you doing?

Michael David Wilson 0:24
Oh, good. Thank you very, very excited about this. This is a Halloween episode. And we'll be talking with Josh Malerman. Who is the author of this is Horace Halloween novella release a house at the bottom of a lake. So pretty exciting stuff.

Bob Pastorella 0:44
Definitely is, it's going to be cool, because everybody's gonna be able to listen to the podcast and be able to get the book at the same time. So that's when we

Michael David Wilson 0:53
Yeah, yeah, there you go. And I mean, here's an incentive if you haven't pre ordered a house at the bottom of a lake. Or if you haven't bought it, if you're now listening to it, and it's out, when you order it. Within the first week, we send you the audio book. Absolutely free.

Bob Pastorella 1:16
That's pretty cool. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:19
So the audio book is in production at the moment. As soon as it's ready. You get that? And yeah, free of charge. I mean, when when, right.

Bob Pastorella 1:33
Yeah, exactly. When, when on Halloween when there you go. So, but it's funny, you're giving it away for free. There's a lot of audiobooks out there for books, and they can get pretty pricey. So you get like a bonus here. This is pretty cool. Oh,

Michael David Wilson 1:49
that's it. And, you know, this may be your only opportunity to get it for free.

Bob Pastorella 1:56
There you go. If you're looking for a deal, oh, we have one for you. Yes, we do.

Michael David Wilson 2:04
And, you know, the last time that the This Is Horror Podcast spoke with Josh Malerman. It was Dan Howarth and I and we spoke for like three hours. It was absolutely crazy. And I was in Japan at the time as I am now. But I started recording 11pm So we weren't done till gun 2am

Bob Pastorella 2:30
And that was it was three hours, but that was an edited three hours. Exactly. So you were actually on the air for probably three and a half, four hours.

Michael David Wilson 2:38
I know. Epic. We're gonna be back with him. So with that said, I believe that you have his bio.

Bob Pastorella 2:47
Yes, I do. Josh Malerman is an American author and he is the lead singer for the rock band The high strung. He currently lives in Ferndale, Michigan. He first began writing while in the fifth grade, where he wrote about a space traveling dog. Since then, he has written several unpublished novels, and his debut novel Birdbox was published in the United Kingdom and United States in 2014. Too much critical acclaim. He is also the author of Gasol and you'll which is a Kindle single, he's a featured in I can taste the blood loss signals, and of course, are forthcoming a house at the bottom of a lake and Metis Josh Malerman and

Michael David Wilson 3:33
if you're listening to this, as a Patreon fan, we are just a day or so away from the release. And if you're listening to it when it comes out on Monday, you can buy it right now. So pause there and buy it and then come back and listen to the interview. Let's get him on the podcast.

Bob Pastorella 3:54
Let's do it

Michael David Wilson 4:04
Josh Welcome back to The This Is Horror Podcast for the Halloween episode. How the hell are you doing?

Josh Malerman 4:11
Oh man I am doing wonderful and it is almost magical to hear your voice right now because of all that you and I have done together you know recently in terms of setting the book up and editing it and and getting the cover art and all these exciting things whatever. And then to hear be with you and talking in the flesh and you've been all over the world and I guess I've been all over a bit too. And so on Halloween is in a couple of nights so this isn't especially exciting. Night that we are meeting the three of us Hello guys.

Michael David Wilson 4:48
It's incredible and we are just days away from the release of a house at the bottom of a lake. It's been in the works for so long and it is finally going to be In the listeners hands and the readers hands.

Josh Malerman 5:04
Last night I was saying to Allison and I didn't even have to say any more than this. But I just said to her, I was like, can you imagine where I would be at psychologically, if I didn't have a house at the bottom of a lake coming out in two days? I didn't. I didn't have to say any more than that.

Michael David Wilson 5:22
I mean, on the subject to Halloween, let's just begin with what is it that you typically do for Halloween? And what does the festival what does the occasion mean to you? Well,

Josh Malerman 5:35
I had one, particularly well, to actually, but one really fantastic Halloween because it was, I had begun the rough draft of Bird Box, on whatever it was an October 5 of that year, whatever year it was, and without planning to had finished it on Halloween. And that night, hosted a Halloween party at my house. Well, it was like the third floor of a house that I rented. So that it will always be hard for me to top that one in terms of, you know, I didn't even plan on finishing this novel. And then I'm later that night, you know, in the morning, I finished the novel later Later that night and with all my friends and bandmates, and we're all drunk. And, and there's one girl, you know, says, Hey, congratulations, Josh finished writing a rough draft today. And so, whenever Halloween comes around, I always think of Birdbox for that reason. And then also last year, my friend James and I began a challenge, like a writing challenge in I can't remember what what it was, but, but we had to write essentially five rough drafts in five months. And I realized that sounds insane. And who wide rush hours and all those, all those arguments, I get it. But we were like, Let's try it. Let's write five rough drafts for five novels in five months, and ended on Halloween. And last year, we did that. And on Halloween, we both ended our fifth and final draft. So Halloween for me, has bizarrely turned into a deadline. But like an exciting Yeah, like, if you can finish this book by Halloween, or what a day to finish a scary book. Right. So. So it's become something of that, you know, you know, some people will say to me around town, like, oh, you and you and Alison, you guys probably don't do anything different on a Halloween. You're reading scary books. And she's painting herself in some crazy, you know, awesome fashion. And so you guys are Halloween all year. And we are but we're also looking around town for parties right now. Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 7:39
Every day is Halloween.

Josh Malerman 7:41
Yeah, to guys like us, you know, and, and we see that online. You know, we see other people post that like, oh, you know, this, I'm like, this is all here. And you know, it's kind of true. But but also I'm not you know, I embrace the holidays, for the most part, like, whatever if everyone's out having fun. Let's have fun. Yeah. And I would love to scare the hell out of some little kids. I would love to pretend to be like, I would love to pretend to be like a dead body on the front porch or or something.

Bob Pastorella 8:11
I'd be good traumatize the kids in the neighborhood.

Josh Malerman 8:15
Allison and I can definitely do that.

Michael David Wilson 8:19
I mean, so this is now free Halloweens in a row where you've had a significant achievement in terms of writing in terms of fiction and in terms of horror. So I think, you know, now that you've made it three in a row, it's probably going to continue. I mean, you you don't want to break the streak. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 8:38
you have given me the third one. Yeah, it's it's it's incredible, man, I can't Oh my gosh, I can't eat you know, not not to get all too emotional. But when I saw a house at the bottom of a lake on Amazon and and really, you know, the moment for me where where things really took off was when we got that cover art that was the moment when I was like, wow, this is this is really something else and and then you know, I was gonna give the story my all either way, but that that upped the ante some on somehow for on all fronts, you know what I mean?

Michael David Wilson 9:12
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And do you have a physical copy of Ray Cluley's Water For Drowning? No, because that said this is how I read novella and that was another cover from Piper and I kind of think that what for drowning gonna house a bottom of a lake could almost be like taken from the same thing because he's used this this gorgeous turquoise, blue and green colors. And I was only asking because if you saw that kind of physically in the flesh as it were, you'll just see how in person those greens and terrco is they're all made more vibrant. They pop off the cover, so it's gonna be a thrill when you get a hold here and look at that.

Josh Malerman 10:00
You know, one of one of the things that I love about that club I, you know, I wrote him, I wrote Pye saying, Hey, I just wanted you to know that the the handrails on the stairs leading to the house, I think are the most sort of exceptional part of this cover. And he wrote me back like, Oh, thanks. I was really proud of that part. Yeah. And if you look at that, it really is sort of astonishing work right there. And then one, one thing that I think that the cover dies, is just it has the same amount of like, fairy tale to it that the novella does. And what I mean by that is, there's only so much fairy tale to the novella, but there is a dollop of it. And I think that the cover also has just a, just a slash of it. And, and it's definitely, if I just saw that cover, I'd be like, Oh, this is a scary story, for sure. But it has like just a hint of that fairy tale, and which the same thing with the story. And I love that rather than the story being really dark, and the cover being a total fairy tale, that kind of thing. They really seem to match up in that way.

Michael David Wilson 11:07
Yeah, and I think fairy tale is absolutely on point because it does have that magical quality to it throughout the tale. I mean, the house is magical. The lake is magical. Love is magical. It's all there. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 11:25
Yeah. You know, I think that if there's like a duality to add to the idea of a fairytale because I think all says, horror readers. You know, have you heard like, Oh, hey, man, you got to see this movie. It's really scary. And then that was followed up with. It's kind of like a fairy tale. You might be like, oh, yeah, man, fairy tale fairy tales. Not scary. But then at the same time, when we go and read fairy tales, those are we're never as turned on as we are then because most of them are legitimately scary. And most of them are these brilliant, original ideas, very strange ideas. So there's a strange duality of wanting and not wanting the fairy tale. You know what I mean?

Michael David Wilson 12:06
Yeah, and especially when you go back to the origins of the fairy tale, and you look at the Brothers Grimm, for example. I mean, those fairy tales are not fairy tales, in perhaps the way we might imagine. The traditional child's fairy tale. I mean, that's magic. But there's also some really brutal messed up stuff.

Josh Malerman 12:30
Really, totally. I know, if my mom had read that sort of stuff to me as a kid, I might, yeah, I might have had, like, never had my own bedroom, I would have just like, built like a bunk bed in her room.

Bob Pastorella 12:45
My grandparents used to have like this encyclopedic set, and it came with this books of fiction, and they had the Brothers Grimm in there. And this is this is probably 3040 years ago. I remember reading him as a kid. And I think that that probably had a little bit to shape, you know, my love of har. So, and there's a new translation out, I can't find it, but I want to get it because they say that this translation is probably about as close to what they were really trying to accomplish than anything else. Oh, man. And so it's gonna you know, it's someone's I was reading like a blurb, and I can't remember who wrote it, but said, these tales are truly horrifying. And I'm like, I need to read those again. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 13:28
yeah. Same here. We when you discover what edition that is, or whatever you let me know.

Bob Pastorella 13:34
I will, I will actually seen it in Barnes and Noble. But I was kind of in a hurry. So I need to go back and look at it. And I plan on going back next week anyway. So I will probably look at it and pick it up. And I'll take a picture of it and post it and tag you.

Josh Malerman 13:52
yeah, because I feel the same way. I think that I need to, and I've been doing this lately with with reading is, you know, like, actually dedicate a few weeks to like the Brothers Grimm. Like, let's get to know them, Josh, you know, let's get to know them as an adult. Let's, let's see what they're doing. Rather than just read one of theirs and move on to, you know, a short story by Ray Garton, whatever, that let's, let's, let's stay with Brothers Grimm for a couple of weeks. Let's stay with Ray Garton for a couple of weeks, let's say with Joyce Carol Oates, you know, that kind of thing. I really, and also trying to do that with periods too. You know, hey, let's read a few novels from the 80s. Let's read a few not modern novels. And I've been really trying to balance balance out, you know, it almost feels like and you guys probably feel this way too, that you're constantly giving yourself a horror education. You know, as if you're a teacher, and it's like, the greatest syllabus of all time.

Michael David Wilson 14:50
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think what you're describing as well, it enables you to put the stories into context because he Even though there can be a certain joy from variety and picking and choosing and going from something radically different to something else that's completely on another scale. If you read, let's say, all of the books by Ryu Murakami in a row, it enables you to develop that context and to see not only what he's doing from story to story, but what is his overall picture? What are the themes? What is he really getting at with his fiction? And how do they all fit together.

Josh Malerman 15:38
Yeah, absolutely in the same thing, that that same thing happens with bands. And with bands. It's much obviously easier you listen to one album, and then you want to hear the next one, you know, and the next one, and then you before you know it in a couple days time, you you caught the entire growth of the kinks, you know, yeah. And that's an awesome thing to, to experience. And it just, it just takes a little more dedication with an author, you know, when I was much younger, I mean, maybe 22 or so, I went on a real like William Faulkner run where I read something like, honestly, like 19 of his books in a row or something, it was really, really intense. And by the end of it, by the end of it, I could not read another one, you know, but I'm truly had a grasp on this on this artists, this writer by the end of that run.

Bob Pastorella 16:28
Once you get your feel of it, you have to change and to Cleanse the palate. I did the same thing with Robert Aikman, and I was like, I have to read something that was written this year. All of this stuff was written like in the 70s, and the 60s in the 50s. And it's incredible stuff and you just immerse yourself in it. But then you feel like, you're just like, oh my god, I got the whole breast of it, but and he couldn't spell it.

Josh Malerman 16:52
Yep, I could not agree more. I even have to do that with scary movies in general. I wonder if all of us have to do that. Where sometimes I'm like, Whoa, Josh, man, you you just watched like 10 like of the freakiest movies of all time, man. Why don't you just put on like a, you know, put on like a romantic comedy, you know, put on like, like a cartoon for crying out loud.

Yeah, definitely.

Gotta Cleanse the palate.

Michael David Wilson 17:21
Whereas the his Halloween, what is the scariest movie your television show that you've watched this year? So it doesn't have to have been made this year but just that you've personally watched?

Josh Malerman 17:36
Okay, I you know, I experienced the the divide on the witch immediately upon seeing it. Okay, I'll Alison I went and saw at the theater local theater here. And I was really, really scared to the point where I, man, you guys, did you guys see the Witch?

Michael David Wilson 17:56
I have? Yes, yes. Okay. Yeah. So there

Josh Malerman 17:59
There was one particular scene where I was like, I just can't take it. I can't take it. And I like hid my face and Allison shoulder. And then I when I pulled my face out, I was like, Did I miss something? And she goes, Well, they just showed the witch. I was like, Oh, come on. Really? Did I just miss the witch? And she was like, Yeah, you like that was that was it? And I was like, Come on, man.

I gotta watch it again. Right. So I saw the witch and I don't know what the witch looks like. And so after the movie, Allison, I stayed through the credits, because I just couldn't, I couldn't get enough of that. Just the whole experience. And I'm thinking this is a masterpiece. This is gonna be like, you know, everyone's favorite horror movie ever. And there was a young couple seated near us in the theater. And I walked up to them. And they sat through the credits also. And I said, Wow, that one, right. And then the girl goes, that was garbage. I said, What do you mean, that was garbage? And I was like, What are you like? And she goes, I like it follows and I was what? Yeah, so why. And then we talked to them for a while. And then later that night or later that week, I saw online the there's a real divide on the which there were people who thought like me were like, so scared. People that were like, Oh, my gosh, this is like the cheesiest thing ever. And I was not expecting that with that one. But for me, that was kind of the scariest one. I would say this. That's the scariest one I've seen this year. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 19:26
Well, I think it follows is definitely more palatable and easier to consume. Perhaps the problem that some people had with the weights from what I can ascertain is just that it was quite a slow burn. And I guess as well, because so much of it is built up on the atmosphere. It could almost depend on where you watch it and what kind of mindset you're in because it's a film where you absolutely We have to consume all of it like you couldn't watch it passively and expect to get a lot out of it. You have to be all in when you're watching it. If you're all in, it's gonna terrify you. But I guess if you just wanted more of a kind of care flick with some popcorn and laughing boyfriend's oil is not gonna do it for you. But yeah, those words, I mean, it follows you could easily watch with some snacks and some friends and a few beers. And it would still be legitimately entertaining.

Josh Malerman 20:37
That is a very interesting idea because now I'm imagining a theater with rather than 30 people in the theater, I'm imagining 30 moods, and what if, what if the next day, it would just like, which would be very likely all 30 moods were changed were different, like the 30 people felt were in a different state of mind, if the reaction would be split the opposite way. And I wonder how many, you know. And that's another reason by the way for rereading soft like, like the Brothers Grimm and everything really, is, is that it's like, you know, the things that you disliked that people like, man, you just might have been in a funky mood that day. I mean, it's it. And here you are for years saying, Oh, I don't I never liked Blade Runner, you know, and say, Well, you know, maybe you just were in a funky mood. And so yeah, that's an argument. Oh, you know what, though? It seems like that divide is happening a lot with this sort of, sort of newer, I don't know what to call it yet. I don't know if anyone knows what to call yet. That sort of newer batch of like, semi arthouse horror movies Babadook, It Follows, The Witch, Goodnight Mommy, Neon Demon. There's a sort of there seems to be a real divide amongst all of those. Do you know what I'm saying?

Bob Pastorella 21:56
I know exactly where you're coming from. There's there's some that think it's it's highbrow and hard It should be fun and all this stuff and fuck that man. Horror can be whatever the fuck it wants to be if you don't like it didn't Don't watch it. If you do, like it didn't tell the world about it and share and everything like that. But horror. I mean, I read an article yesterday was talking about and they were talking about how other people think that hard needs to be fun. It can it that's part of it, if you look at it as like a big umbrella, but no, not necessarily. Yeah, but people like what they want to like.

Josh Malerman 22:31
I imagine you two feel this way also, and I definitely do, which is I love it all. Meaning I love you know, the craziest splatter madness to the quietest whisper of a horror film. I love all of it. And so, you know, I think there are people though, who do sort of and it doesn't mean they're any more closed minded necessarily, but that they do sort of stick their flag in the you know, quiet horror camp, because it maybe it's more, what's the word respectable or something? And then there are people who just, you know, stake their claim in the in the campy fun camp because to them horror is supposed to be gross out madness. And, and I don't know, man, I love it. I would love to write a novel or somehow a work of art that combined both of those somehow, whether it was let's say one book, where it was like two threads going on at once that were connected, where one was a very, very steady, quiet, slow burn. And the other was just absolute, like Richard Layman madness. Yeah. And I would, I would love to have a book like that just to Oh, not to be so smarmy, but to sort of say like, Hey, look, they can live together under the same roof.

Bob Pastorella 23:46
Right? That means you know what, it's funny you say that reminds me of something and I hate to give him any ideas. Because if you want to do this, I want you to run with it and it really doesn't matter. But that kind of sounds like something that Stephen Graham Jones would do. Oh, yeah, he would try to like do the high brow stuff, but I'm also going to do this crazy thing that goes right through it. And uh, but yeah, yeah, I like that. You need to do that Josh.

Josh Malerman 24:11
So let's block him when we post about this

Bob Pastorella 24:18
He'll actually sent me a message what's wrong with not the episode man?

Michael David Wilson 24:25
It's funny you mentioned Stephen Graham Jones because he actually messaged me saying he cannot wait to read a house at the bottom of a lake. He is so excited for it.

Josh Malerman 24:37
Oh, man, that guy. I I read mongrels and blurbed mongrels about was it about this time last year? My gosh, I might have been. And Holy Cow you both read mongrels. Right.

Michael David Wilson 24:51
Yeah, yeah,

Josh Malerman 24:53
I mean that guy is just I mean he's, you know, there. I do. Recognize that we are in A goal a golden era of horror fiction for sure. I mean, there are some just seriously brilliant novels and short stories and every day it seems like another legitimately brilliant idea is being put to paper. But you know, Stephen Graham Jones there's there's just some magic dust air, you know, and I like to believe that a lot of us have that, but but he's He's definitely one of them.

Michael David Wilson 25:25
Everything he does that Oh, my seems experimental or fresh, even if it's revisiting gold tropes. I mean, you know, spoke about mom grows, but it's a werewolf story, but at the same time, it's a coming of age story.

Josh Malerman 25:44
Oh, my gosh.

Michael David Wilson 25:45
Don't worry about family politics. It just is infused with so much.

Josh Malerman 25:52
Just looking at this. I've seen a few people online that are saying this is the greatest werewolf novel ever written. Now, imagine before writing mongrels. Like, if I was him, I would sit down and be like, okay, like, well, I have a werewolf story. But I don't know, man. There's so many werewolf stories. You know, I might say that to myself, or something or bla bla bla, but then to write the story and some people say it's the best werewolf novel ever written? Just even for some people to consider it that. I mean, you're operating at a at a high level at that point, right? I mean, that's just there's a lot of what there's many werewolf like stories and short stories and films. And Mongrels immediately jumps up to the top of that list. And he's just he's got that dust.

Bob Pastorella 26:34
Well, he did something with werewolves that hasn't been done. Usually it especially like if you look in an urban fantasy setting, the werewolves kind of like the redheaded stepchild sidekick, you know. But whenever you have the whole the whole coming of age type of story and put the character front and center by viewing it through the eyes of a teenager growing up. I think that that's something that's fresh, it's different. And really, truly, I mean, I know that there's a lot of web stuff out there, but there's not a lot of quality web of stuff out there. And that's that's a significant difference. Yeah, stack it up against vampires. There's a lot of quality vampire stuff out there. But there's a whole not a whole lot of quality fiction when it comes to werewolves. Hey, you

Josh Malerman 27:23
Hey, you know what I'm reading right now, for the first time ever. I'm reading the howling. And I'm just over halfway through have you guys read The Howling? The original?

Bob Pastorella 27:32
Yes, I did. Like a long time ago, I need to read it again.

Josh Malerman 27:36
It is so good. I'm kind of like, astonished how good this is. It's absolutely nothing like the movie. Like it's even strange that that movie called itself that except for that it's a great title. And I heard that The Howling 4 is the first time that the Howling movies even sort of referenced this book really in a bigger way. And it really reminds me of Richard Matheson, and I read it online, someone had said it's Richard Matheson lights, but I don't see I don't see like that. It's not, it's nothing light. It's just, it reminds me of Richard Matheson is it's a real straight shot. And it's there's like a gentlemanly sort of grace behind it even though there's some brutal moments, but there's a gentlemanly ness to it. And there's a there's a real real straight like I don't want to say slow burn but direct steady like story to it. And then I was not expecting at all I was expecting like the novelization of the movie and it's absolutely nothing like that. So speaking of quality werewolf stuff this is this is definitely one of those.

Bob Pastorella 28:40
Yeah, and you gotta look to get you know the I think it's the last werewolf. What's I guess? Last his last name is Duncan.

Michael David Wilson 28:48
Is it Glen Duncan?

Bob Pastorella 28:51
Glen Duncan he has a whole series out there I started reading it unfortunately I couldn't get into it because it just had this I don't know it was well written I'm not gonna lie to you just it had this James Bond feel to it that I just didn't like. And I was being extremely picky I probably need to give it another go. I have a I have red moon binder before she never read it. I've had it on my Kindle for a year it's collecting dust on my Kindle but I need to read it because I mean Richard Thomas just you know, he's he boughs to that he's like, that is such a good book. You need to read it. And and but you know, the one that always comes to mind to me that I loved reading and it's not really aware of stories Wolfin but it's a it's kind of like a werewolf story is kind of in its but it's not. It's really hard to explain if you've never read it, or even seen the movie, which is a pretty decent adaptation. But it just kind of gives you a different a different, I don't know a different viewpoint. And then there's a what is it The Nightwalker by Thomas Tessier. And it's basically what I would call like a psychological werewolf. You know? That's my experience have never gone outside of that. I've seen other titles. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like you go on and on.

Josh Malerman 30:16
Oh, yeah, you're right. That is interesting. It's like that, that that sub genre or whatever was was more is more open than than maybe we all thought and it maybe it took mongrels to kind of like alert us to that I had today. I saw, literally today in a bookstore, my one of my favorite bookstores in town, the fella that runs it, his name's Danny, and he's sort of my, my, my go to guy for horror and sci fi. And, you know, even when I'm on the road, and I'm in another bookstore, I'll call Danny and be like, hey, what do you know about this? And he, you know, he knows a lot about all that. And today, I saw an advanced reading copy of Wolfen there for $3. It's a red cover with black writing. And it's like, it's presented from the by the publishing house in a way of like, we swear you're gonna love this book, you know? And I and I was like, I didn't get it. I don't know why I didn't get it. Maybe I will tomorrow. But yeah, so that was cool for you to just bring that up. Because I was. I had that in my hands today. In advance reading copy. And I decided not to get it for some reason. I don't know why. But now I will .

Bob Pastorella 31:22
Go back and get it. For $3 I mean, come on now.

Josh Malerman 31:28
Yeah, no, I know. I know. I know.

Michael David Wilson 31:31
Yeah. This is a thing. If you hear about something once, like you pick it up, you see a bookstore, you might let it slide. But then if the same day, someone mentions it. It's like, okay, these are the forces of the world aligning and telling me I need to get that book.

Josh Malerman 31:49
For crying out loud. I spent like $200, like on a book about drunk ghosts, right. But I couldn't spend three bucks on an advanced reading copy of Wolfen. Come on.

Bob Pastorella 31:59
I know. I was at a used bookstore, I found a copy of the gourmet gas trilogy all in in mass market paperback for five bucks an hour, set it on the counter, come back home, and I'm doing some things to get on Facebook. And there's Paul Tremblay talking about gourmet gas. And I'm like, damn it. So I'll go back to the store next day. It's gone. They don't like really had it actually the Bata had probably like it was broken.

Josh Malerman 32:26
Yeah, we should know better by now that when it's a fine, it's a fine, you know? And that's I mean, you know, especially when I mean, how many bookstores you got in town, right. So you're always going to the same pew. If there's something new there or Sunday. Interesting. You're like, gotta grab that. Yeah, that's hilarious.

Michael David Wilson 32:42
Well, let's talk a little bit about A House at the Bottom of a Lake. Yes. So I mean, first of all, I remember when we were talking about Birdbox, you said that you wrote it in that kind of mad 21 Day binge you're so of course, as you said, culminating at Halloween. I'm wondering, was the first draft of a house at the bottom of a lake of similar process? And yeah, what were the origins of that story?

Josh Malerman 33:16
With House At The bottom of the lake, I can't remember when Oh, no, I was working. Okay. I have a novel coming out in May, and like the second full length novel with HarperCollins. And I was working on that book, during the day. And then, when the writing session was done, I would write like, a thought, I mean, like, 1000 words a day, I'm been trying. And pretty much with like, John skips that advice that I've been reading online. I've been trying to avoid the concrete word count thing recently. I feel like he's right when he says that people are sticking a little too much to word accounts, but I was doing about 1000 It was about 1000 words a day. And I think the first draft what was it? Like? Do you remember like, 30,000?

Michael David Wilson 33:59
So then, yeah, yeah, I think it was a little bit less. It might have been Yeah, that's 25 27,000. And then, yeah, we and then a bigger? Yeah.

Josh Malerman 34:10
I love when the book gets bigger and not smaller. I'm right. Right. So anyway, so yeah, so while working on that other book, I was like, Oh, here's 1000 words, you know, and then here's another 1000. And that, I'll tell you, that's a that's a really great way to, to work on a story that you don't really have, you know, not that you don't totally know what you're gonna do with yet because, you know, a week goes by you got 7000 words, two weeks, you got like 14,000 I mean, you're starting to have like a real a real story here. And, and, and it's done in a more a less pressurized way. It's not your quote, unquote, day's work. It's more like you already did your day's work, and now you're like, just loose and having fun. And so at some point with that one, I'm gonna guess the rough draft must have taken because at some point I doubled that up because I started to have a lot of fun with it. So if it was 27,000, I'm gonna probably say it took, yeah, about 19/20 days for the rough draft.

Michael David Wilson 35:11
I mean, I think what you said was that answer there as well is a reply to anyone who says, Oh, I don't feel that I have time to write. And it may be that it is someone who is juggling a lot of different things, they've got a full time job. They've got things they need to do around the house, perhaps they're a parent as well. But if you can somehow find a snatch of time to write around 1000 words per day. That really does add up quickly. I mean, those incremental gains, and within within a month, you've got a novella.

Josh Malerman 35:56
Yep. Yep. And, and like Bob was saying, a moment ago, you know, you turn around and six months pass? Well, all right, well, what if in those six months, you were you did this little bit every day, oh, my God, you could have, you know, a number of stories going at once, you know, without putting, or dedicating that much time to it, which obviously, that's not the best advice, right? You don't want to say like, Hey, man, here's the easiest way to write, you know, here's the least amount of time you have to spend on him, you know, right. But, but at the same time, you know, there are, you know, I got a buddy who's like teaching and, and another one was kids and, and all these and they're like, oh, it's hard to find time. But yeah, it treat it. Like, if you treat it sort of like, you know, someone that works out every day, like they spend an hour at the gym, or they jog for a half hour, same thing. And in the same way that you you know, six months go by and you've got something going something like fantastic. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 36:52
Yeah. And it may, it may be hard to find time, but I truly believe if you want it, you'll find it. And I mean, I've said this before, you can't have everything. But you can have anything you want and so on about that prioritization. How bad do you want it? If you want something else more? That's fine. That's okay.

Josh Malerman 37:17
Alison and I got rid of our TV for this very reason is true? Because it was like, Okay, well, oh, there's no time. But well, you had time to watch that. Matthew McConaughey movie, right. All right. All right, let's get rid of the TV.

Michael David Wilson 37:33
It sounds like the process for a house at the bottom of a lake was a more organic one. I mean, did you have much of a plan going into it? I mean, what what did you know, before you put a word down?

Josh Malerman 37:49
I knew that all I had was, you know, the idea of a life? I guess? I don't know, it's really hard to say because it was it's almost like I could give you the answer that I saw the cover of the book first, which was to teach teenagers in a canoe, you know, floating above the roof of a house below them. And just to have that, like, image, that was the first thing I was struck with. And it was like, oh, so okay, what happened here, these two teens found, wow, like a house somehow, you know, sank or something. And then from there, when I, that's all I started with, and, and I knew I had to get them on the water somehow. So the opening line of the book, you know, "that's the best first date I ever heard of," that's been the same opening line, you know, the whole time, because I wanted to start with, like, I didn't want to build up to James asking her out, I wanted it to be like, Ooh, they're going on a date, let's go, you know, and let's get to that moment, that that visual or whatever, of them floating above that roof. I don't wanna say as soon as possible, but let's get there pretty fast, because I kind of want to know what's down there. You know, and then so that's, that's how it started. And then it became that that rhythm of starting it that way, that sort of, you know, I, the more writing and writing I do I really start to believe that each book has like, it's almost like you hire a different drummer to play along with, you know, and the drummer behind a house at the bottom of a lake was was real study, to me, was real, sort of like, like slow builds, and whatever. And he would rest, you know, at the same time that Amelia and James rested, and then every now and then he would like, you know, hit a cymbal crash that neither of them were expecting and that would I don't want to ruin the story or spoil anything. But he would hit a crash and be like, oh, here's the scary part or whatever. There just seemed to be a real, real live drummer behind the writing of that one. And I think it started with that, like that very first line. And I'm not saying the first line is so this or that, but it just got to the point. so quickly, without the build up of, you know, James as watching this girl in town or something like that, it just got right to it. And then I think that drummer was, you know, the rhythm of the story from there stayed in that pocket the rest of the time.

Michael David Wilson 40:14
Yeah, I think that drummer analogy is a great one. And I think that's a strong case to argue that the story is, in fact, a song. And I mean, that makes a lot of sense with you being a musician, but just looking at the language, the fact that there's a lot of repetition for emphasis, you have lines that take up one paragraph to really draw attention to them. And there's a lot of symmetry as poetry in terms of the events that take place.

Bob Pastorella 40:51
You could think of it as like a duet, because it's written in a very Omnipotent, Omniscient Viewpoint. And I wanted, you know, that kind of leads in what I wanted to know was that like, something that you planned on doing or just happen naturally, I see it more and more, but we don't really have a set, you know, head that we're in that we're following the story, we can kind of, you move around and you do it so fluidly. And so loosely, and it's just, it's like an ebb and flow. But would you said that drum and that sort of thinking something about it, and it hit me, bam, it's a duet.

Josh Malerman 41:34
Yeah, that's cool. Man. I liked that idea a lot. And also, you know, okay, like, I remember with writing Bird Box at some point, I was like, wow, Malorie is in every scene in this book. And then I was like, Wait, can I have a scene without her? Like, what would happen now if I if I had a scene without I was almost like afraid to leave her like that the whole narrative narrative was gonna fall there, like ashes or something? I think in the final book that yeah, there's a scene where without her, but now much of it. And then with this time, though, and a few other stories I've written, I've felt that same, like, what do you call that same tether? Where I was like, man, I've been with this character the whole time. And I, is this something I'm doing by accident? You know, we've all read these sort of epic horror horror novels, where there's like this ensemble cast and many different characters, and it'll be going back from all these different threads and, and that sort of thing. And I kept finding myself with this one character. So in this case, I could I could see when I started that it was all gonna be disguised James, any any ask this girl out and, and it was gonna all be from his angle? Am I doing okay? Am I coming off? Well, to her does she think I'm funny, that kind of thing. But very early on, I was like, Hey, man, don't get stuck with just him. Like, you know, that you've done that before, like, so many times to get stuck was just James, this is like, these two are together. You're not telling this kid James's story. You're telling this, this duet, as you say this, these two teenagers falling in love. And there's no, there's no way that just James aside is going to be as effective as as the two of them together. So I do think there, there was a conscious decision in the early going of, if I'm the cameraman, it was a conscious decision of like, okay, you know, now let's switch back to a million. Okay, now, let's switch back to James right, you know, like, over and over and now like an aerial of them both. Now, you know, from beneath, now, let's get them from beneath as if I was like, filming them the whole time, but with equal screen time.

Bob Pastorella 43:41
Right. That's, that's the way it feels. And even when they're together. And you if you move from one perspective to the other, you still sense the other there. It's, it's really kind of weird. And both of the scenes where they're separate. You could think of those as almost like solo moments. So if you want to use the song as analogy, you know, you've written a really cool song. That's, that's, you know, 30,000 words. With and it's a duet with a kick ass drummer.

Josh Malerman 44:17
That is awesome, Bob. Thank you.

Michael David Wilson 44:22
You mentioned in the piece that you recently wrote on music, about your fiancee Alison, writing a song or singing a song called The Courtship of Amelia.

Josh Malerman 44:37
Hey, Alison. Alison, do you want to sing the courtship of Amelia

Michael David Wilson 44:44
to have a live song?

Josh Malerman 44:46
You want to do it?

Michael David Wilson 44:51
This is like this is our fast

Josh Malerman 44:53
anyway. Hey, what about like even if you just came in and like saying the first line. You don't even have to bring the guitar Okay, I'm using the microphone to yell across the house.

Michael David Wilson 45:05
This is like, this is the most impromptu moment I think we've had on this is our podcast. I mean, when we had the camera q1, Bob was pretty sure that we get some singing in this. Yeah, this may be for the guitar. This is even better.

Josh Malerman 45:23
This is your conscious speaking you sang for This Is Horror. Not just one line.

Michael David Wilson 45:36
Well, I was gonna, I was going to ask, I mean, we don't have to get to do it live right now. But is there a way that maybe she could record it? Or record some of it? And our listeners could hear it?

Josh Malerman 45:50
Yes, that can happen for sure. Um, I'll talk to her about that.

Michael David Wilson 45:55
Little easier for her than just being press your eyes light, right? We live Allison, you won't be in silence.

Josh Malerman 46:03
Right now she's rolling her eyes. I mean, somewhere in the house. You but ya know, I will talk to her about that for sure. But I gotta say I'm not convinced that she's not going to come in here and do this. So let's just let's just see if she does this. But yeah,

Michael David Wilson 46:15
This is gonna be a dramatic moment. Kind of pro wrestling style. Just when you're least expecting it. The lights are gonna go off the audio is gonna go weird. And her music is gonna hit

Josh Malerman 46:31
Yeah, slowly get body slammed. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 46:34
Probably. Like that could be on the calves. See? Yeah, I mean that the water theme of a house at the bottom at a lake. That's something that I mean, for me having a great interest in Japanese Hall rail, water and wellness and dark places. Integral and a really a part of the fabric of traditional Japanese ghost stories. But, I mean, when you think about horror and water, what are the stories that you think of? What does it bring to mind?

Josh Malerman 47:16
It's funny, while working on it, you know, the Hennis this this and this must happen to anybody who starts a horror story without what's the right phrase, without knowing exactly where it's going at first, right without it being outline or whatever. At the very beginning. I'm like, oh, okay, I got them. Got them in his house. And then you start thinking and of course all that goes to your mind is like the these other underwater creatures you know, like the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Jaws all this. You're like, wait, wait, hold on. I don't want to I don't want a giant lizard man in this house. No, I don't and giant like scary fish in this house. And then you start and then you're like, trying to get creative. Well, what about a woman with fish lips? Wait, wait, hold on, you know, what? What about this? What about that, you know? And then it is there were there was sort of like a referencing of all those underwater like movies and not not underwater movies, but water horror stories. But I was thinking about, like, I thought of the Ring during this and I you know, what I haven't read is the windup bird chronicle is I hear that. I hear that that one's like, masterful. That's a well story. Right, isn't it?

Michael David Wilson 48:26
Yeah. That's Haruki Murakami. So that that'd be a great place to kind of jump into his work. Have you read that Cuba's fiction?

Josh Malerman 48:36
Zero, none. And then that guy that I told you about earlier, my go to guy in town is like, yeah, you gotta read this one. And I just haven't, haven't done it yet. But I keep hearing that that book is, you know, whatever, as good as it gets, I'm really excited to do it. But the for the thing that was so rare, really, really exciting to me about it, being an underwater sorry, and taking place underwater in one day, I wouldn't mind actually figuring out the percentage, like how much of this book takes place underwater. But um, the thing that was most exciting to me was the just the natural uncanniness of the setting, it's dark, it's cold, it's claustrophobic. It's, you know, what's the word or everything's naturally sort of distorted, either, you know, by movement, by, you know, the water being displaced by your movements are just a movement of unseen waves. You're only seeing things in pieces through the end of a flashlight. So you're only getting bits and that if you're only getting bits, that means you're also getting a lot of darkness in the negative space. So if there's like, let's say a mirror down there, oh my gosh, imagine, imagine what you would look like in a mirror in a house at the bottom of a lake. And it really started to become such a naturally frightening setting. that I stopped thinking about, you know, the Creature from the Black Lagoon. And I stopped thinking about Parana. And I started started realizing that just where they were was something of itself. The setting itself was like a monster. And that's something that I talked to my agent who, you know, yeah, interesting. I talked to her. And I talked to other people about to that, I think it's important to remember with horror that in terms of character development, and this or that, the scare is one of the main characters, you know, if I, the horror is one of the main characters, even if it's never seen, like if I see a book cover that said, a house at the bottom of Lake, I, or let's say it was a movie, right? And I go into the theater, and then I'd see these two, two teams, and in a canoe, I'm like, Oh, my God, where they're gonna find the house. Right. Okay. So what's in the house? Whatever? In other words, that sort of, what is it? That unknown scary thing that you're? I wouldn't say expect? Yeah, expecting is, you know, it's a scary story is a character of its own. And so, it went from trying to figure out, you know, again, you know, what, what, you know, what creature is down here to realizing that, like, the house itself, the and the off camera, sense of horror, were characters of their own. And then that's not to say that nothing lives down there that that I'm not spoiling it. Either way. I'm just saying that I realized early on that, yeah, that house was a character all of its own. And so was the foreboding.

Bob Pastorella 51:39
It's like Session Nine, the danvers asylum is the the main story of the whole movie. You know? I don't know if you've ever seen session nine. But I know exactly where you're coming from. You've never seen session nine.

Josh Malerman 51:58
No man and you're gonna think you're you. I swear to God, you're gonna think I'm lying right now. But the other day someone told me to watch that. So you and I both had like cue moments here. Well, actually, both from you to me. We're now I gotta read Wolfen and watch sassy especially nine and I will do both. But keep going about it. I don't I don't know much about it.

Bob Pastorella 52:17
Well, it's it's it's the main star. These guys they're they're getting out asbestos and no buildings. And so they get a contract at this medical, this abandoned asylum. And so they filmed it in the abandoned Danvers asylum that I think now has been actually torn down. But they actually got permission to film. Most of the interior scenes actually, in this abandoned asylum. And I mean, their stuffs still there. There's medical equipment there. There's stretchers wheelchairs, so they really didn't have to do anything with it. And it's a very claustrophobic movie. It's it's, it's very, it's very creepy. Very well done, extremely well acted. And it has David Caruso in it. So you know, if you don't lucky, because I'm not a big David Caruso Pham is probably one of his better roles. But, uh, it's just, you need to really check it out. It's the star. But the whole I mean, like I said that the setting is the true star of the movie.

Josh Malerman 53:31
Yeah, it is. I don't want to say a pet peeve, because that makes it sound like I'm annoyed or something. But it is, you know, when I hear like people talking about character development, and of course, I get it, I love. I'm all for it. And there's there's plenty of character development in A House at the Bottom of a Lake. But sometimes with scary stories, I don't necessarily need them. And I and I think like, let's take Twilight Zone, for example. You kind of just start in a scene. I don't need to know much more than the guy you know, here's a family man, or here's a banker. I don't need much more than that. Because the off camera character is the Twilight Zone. And I know and I know that we are like, this guy, whoever he is, is going to be in like an upside down twisted situation that I cannot wait to to witness. And so I do think that for the non horror reader, you know, off you'll win when someone says like, oh, there wasn't enough character development. Usually. I can ask them like, do you read a lot of like, scary stories? Like no, not really. And I'm like, Oh, right. Okay. Because because, you know, at least for me, the idea that conceit of you know, all these stories that we're all writing these books and these short stories and these film ideas that concede the idea is the most exciting important part to me. So I can see a film that you know, is flat or the acting is real bad or, or whatever it is, but if the idea is just brilliant, I'm still gonna walk away like Wow, man, that idea Uh, you know, and same thing with books like oh, it's not Yeah, it's clunky but man, you know Philip K Dick gets that a lot where he's real people think he's real clunky or this and that but what what an idea guy right? Right so yeah, so I in so to me sometimes maybe often even the idea is a character also.

Bob Pastorella 55:19
I can definitely see where that comes from there's certain things that are like that maybe especially especially in film it's kind of hard to find it for me in actual written work but in film, you know the concept like I know one of my one of my favorite films is Constantine I cannot stand counter reaps. Yeah. My dog, my mom's dog can act better than him. Now I have not seen John Wick and I heard that as the perfect vehicle for him. So, and I really want to say it I've heard too many, you know, really, really good friends that really are into Movie say you would enjoy it. So I'm like, Okay, well, I'll have to watch it. It's haven't watched it yet. So I mean, of course, and he butchered Constantine. The movie has got some great cast. It's got some great ideas. And I love it because of the idea of what it did. Now, was it exactly true to the comic? No, it wasn't. But it was the idea of it. And that's why it's one of my favorite movies. And I'll watch it again and again and again. And I cringe every time I see him going did they got a damn American to play a Brit but yeah. But that's it's just it grates my nerves. But I still love the movie. You know? Because because of the idea of it, the ideas that it's the idea of it any ideas that is trying to present to us? Yeah,

Josh Malerman 56:52
exactly. And to me, that's the most thrilling part because it's like, you know, I you know what I would kind of this kind of reminds me, not maybe to this extent, but where some people love a guitar player for being like a virtuoso. And other people like a guitar player for being like, strange and unique, where like, let's say like, like, Neil Young solos are really choppy and, and off and, and just a little stranger than say, you know, Jeff Beck, right? And a lot, but there are those people that are like, Oh, my gosh, I mean, he he's so fluid on the guitar, and he's so this. And then there's the opposite school or whatever. To me. This is similar in the way of I of course, I love and respect, you know, brilliant writing, you know, I remember going through a period of, I just couldn't believe how good Nabokov and Fitzgerald and what's that a Truman Capote and I couldn't believe how fluid these guys were, you know, it was just blowing my mind with each book I was reading. But then when I felt like each of them were lacking was, was that like, just that that amazing idea? You know, it was like F Scott Fitzgerald could write about a party all night, you know, in conversations and like, okay, yeah, that's cool. But, but I and he writes so wonderfully, man, I would love to see F Scott Fitzgerald write a werewolf story. You know, I would love this just to see those together. And that kind of thing. But so from right from the start for me, even like in high school, reading these classic guys and whatnot, and girls, whatever. It was always like, oh, and with movies, too. Like, okay, yeah, these are we celebrate all these actors and whatever. But like, who thought of this, like, who thought of the character that Tom Cruise is playing? You know? And I think about that a lot. Everyone, so gets so excited about a character or, or an actor or a celebrity, and I can't help but think of like, yeah, but like, who, who's the, you know, the writers? I think that we should be going to see movies that certain writers wrote, rather than movies that you know, star, a certain guy or girl, you know?

Bob Pastorella 59:00
Oh, yeah, that's right. If anything comes up by Christopher McQuarrie, or something like that, I'm going to be immediately interested in it. You know, because I've seen, you know, way of the gun, the usual suspects, so I kind of know where he's coming from. It's kind of like, I follow certain directors and things like that. And I have certain I follow certain actors, because I feel like that they may work with certain types of directors. So you know, and that's, to me, that's, that's where I get into movies and things like that. And I think now we're starting to see with, you know, with the breakdown of the big presses and everything in horror, going into small presses to great critical acclaim and great sales and things like that. You're almost at the point now to where you can actually follow presses. You know, if you're if you're not, you're stupid, now, you're not stupid. You just you haven't opened your eyes. You haven't seen the whole picture. So I'm gonna take that back. I'm not gonna call somebody stupid. But Follow Follow presses, because I think you'll be surprised.

Josh Malerman 59:58
Yep. And then so this is not from where I'm coming from, this is not all to say like, I have the best idea in the world. But what I am saying is that with a house at the bottom, like, I, I was very careful to nurture James Amelia and the idea. So that those to me were like the three main characters, the what or you can say the setting, because the idea in this case was so entwined with the setting. So but so that was very, you know, those were the three, I guess, characters that I had my eye on the whole time. Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 1:00:35
well, I'm thinking of it like that, if you if you use the setting as a character, then you did a really good job of what they call submerging the eye. That's the old Chucky P, euphemism there. And writing is, you know, if you brought in first person to, you know, you'd want to submerge the eyes and stay away from saying, I did this, I did that. And so that's another way to looking at it, too. I could see how it could go both ways. So but yeah, to me, I love it when someone can do the you know, for, for what it's worth head hopping with such grace. Because usually it's clunky. And you're like going out, wait, hold on, where am I at? Who's hitting my end? Why are they going back and forth. But yours is just smooth and it flows. I love it.

Josh Malerman 1:01:29
I also love that phrase head hopping. That's cool. That's a that's a cool title for a short story, too. That can be a really scary short story had to happen. I do I like that I

Bob Pastorella 1:01:41
It could get gross pretty fast.

Josh Malerman 1:01:43
I am the kind of guy that like I say that kind of thing. And then like six months later, you're like, wait a minute, here's a short story call ahead and hop back and believe it. I was out to dinner with this fella. Allison, I went out to dinner with these two friends. And the guy starts telling us a ghost story of his. And he's like, so me and my buddy, we moved into this apartment. And you know, we walk in it's got two bedrooms, and we flipped a coin for the bigger bedroom. And I was like, wait, wait, hold on, hold on. Wait. The bigger bedroom like and then he was like, is that yours? He was like, Well, what do you mean? I was like, Well, you just like you flipped a coin for the bigger bed and you just that's just something to say, right? He's like, Yeah, what do you mean? I was like the the phrase, the bigger bedroom like that. I'm gonna use that I'm gonna write a story called The bigger bedroom. He's like, Okay. And then like a year later, he was published in Chiro Mad three, and I bring it and I show him the story. You know? I'm like, Hey, man, look, yeah, here's the bigger bedroom. It's published in this awesome anthology. And I mean, he's like, blanched. He's like, What are you talking about? So, when I get when I get excited about short story ideas, like you don't be surprised of the things that you're saying right now me? Who knows?

Michael David Wilson 1:02:47
My head head hopping sounds like a black mirror episode by Charlie Brooker. I mean, that sounds like it I'd have older kind of technological elements and some sort of socio commentary and, you know, probably to do with mind control. It's a good title. Yeah, no doubt, and black mirror for me. I don't know if both of you, or if either of you have seen it, but I think that's almost the modern day equivalent to the Twilight Zone.

Josh Malerman 1:03:22
I've been hearing such good things about it that that the other day I looked at, I keep hearing that season three, which is the new one right, right. And keep hearing it some the best one, and I went and read all the plot synopsis for each for each episode this season. I think there's six or seven and of each one of them sounded amazing to me. So I'm gonna do it. I haven't done it yet, but I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna

Bob Pastorella 1:03:44
I need to get involved with that show. I watched the first episode.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:48
The first first the season one or festive season

Bob Pastorella 1:03:52
where the Prime Minister bangs

Michael David Wilson 1:03:55
that was that was quite funny because that came out before the allegations of David Cameron.

Bob Pastorella 1:04:04
Like I've seen this before. Yeah. I've seen it in the show. It's life imitating art. How strong is that? Man, but that episode blew me away. It was incredible. It was strong. It was well produced. And I didn't know what the outside. Alright, let me do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. Right. I'm gonna watch Episode One season one boom, and I watched it. And it's like an hour and 15 minutes later, my jaw was hanging on the ground. But that was insane. That was like a, like a miniature movie that they just spent like we got like $5 million. Let's blow it all on this. Like, it's great. And I was like, I haven't I haven't gone back to it. I've just been busy.

Josh Malerman 1:04:50
It's hard man. It's hard to take it all in isn't it there you know? It's funny when you when you you know you're at some at some some names. You feel like you got a real firm grasp on the genre. And then, and everything that's going on. And then other days, you're like, Wow, man, I'm so far behind.

Bob Pastorella 1:05:05
I can sit there and watch shows like that. But then I get emails. Like, why didn't this get done? Yeah, it is. So we may or may not be talking with.

I can't binge watch anything I do, I have to plan it. You know. And so it's just mainly, you have to pace yourself in this world. It's important you have to experience but you also have to pace yourself,

Josh Malerman 1:05:35
You know that that's something also I recently I was talking to Allison because I have been noticing the strange thing with writing where, like, if I do a certain height, again, the word whatever, let's just say, right, for two hours, three, let's say three hours, you write for three hours a day. And then one day, you just feel like, you want to keep going. And but I know that if I do that marathon session today that I'm going to destroy this sort of like routine that I got going. So whereas it sounds at first, like, like an awesome thing, like do don't deny yourself a marathon session, go for it. But then the next day, you're like, I don't know. And then all of a sudden, you're like, you've fallen off the rails, and a week later, you get back on track. There is a pacing and steadiness to it all. And you know, I think that we hear like that from from the greats, you know, we hear of that kind of thing, you know, a lot of my heroes are like, like a Hitchcock, Stephen King, Woody Allen, all these guys that with such like, sort of a yearly steady, like career pace, you know, and that kind of thing isn't, of course, they have marathon sessions. But that kind of thing is as you're saying, that's like, there's a pacing involved there.

Bob Pastorella 1:06:47
There's a pacing, you have to be regular at it, you know, and but here's the thing, it's so weird. It's like, you know, reading about like, years and years ago. And when when Peter strock first started publishing his books, there was a there was a gap you know, kind of in between float dragon and Coco. And, and that's about the time that The Talisman came out. And so I always like to Why Why was there such a gap here? Was it because Haman steamy King, were writing this book. And so I read an interview that was in a magazine. And I don't even know if you can find it today. But But one thing that stuck in my mind was Peter Straub said, Never take a year off from writing. Oh, yes, I did. He was in it, and it hurt me. Today, I don't think that he would have that same outlook. Because what he what he's produced since then, is probably like, to me, it's almost like right after those initial novels, and it's really like five or six before cocoa, if you can, everything that he's done. And then since then, it's like he's had greater achievements since then. But those three novels are just iconic, you know, you got go story Shadowland and, and float Dragon, and you have a completely different style with cocoa, but yet, it's still just as visceral, just as hard hidden. You know. And so going back to that a pace. I think that in his case, and it could be with other people that even though he took a year off, he ruined his pace. He basically just said, you know, what, hey, I'm not writing for a year. And he came back better.

Josh Malerman 1:08:36
I totally know what you're talking about right now in, in, like, in the music side of things to where anytime I have felt like, like, oh, you know, I don't have it anymore, or I ruined something or some pace or this or that. And then, you know, a year passes from that moment. And I look back I'm like, Wow, dude, you were you were working on like your best stuff yet. And you just you just didn't see it, maybe. Because when you're working at a higher I don't say a higher level, but at a different level or something. You don't recognize the parameters of it. You know, when you're first starting off, you're just I mean, you could write a novel and just fumes alone. You're so excited right? Now, five years later, you're like, oh, no, I'm not writing with that energy. Well, maybe that's good. Come here, why exactly what you're writing done, and the same thing with songs or whatever. And then that actually kind of reminds me of when you you know, what if someone took a photo of you today, and you're like, wow, I don't I don't look so good. And then five years later, you're like, Oh, my God, man, I looked so good. And it's like that's similar. That same thing seems to happen with with with art. Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 1:09:45
With art and everything. Everybody thinks that you progress. Like if you if you progress and you go up and you grow and you'd learn that a steady incline. It's not it's the steps and some steps are higher up than others. It's like some guy who was like on acid design the stairwell. Step right here, there's a whole bunch of tiny steps one big giant step. And every time you hit a big giant step is when you have dislike Grossberg. And you learn so much. And I think like, if you go back to what I was talking about, with Peter strop, he had this one gigantic step of something in a slide, he said to overcome, no, tell him what it was. And we'll probably never know. And we don't need to know it doesn't matter. What matters is that he overcome it, he took a year off from writing, he did it and he came back, and he was even better than before. I'm not recommend anybody take a year off. But if things happen, you can get back to things. You know, and I know that so many people that I know. And I can sit here and name names that are in my Facebook feed, that have had so many problems, and they come back. And it's like, and they're coming back to critical acclaim. And it's just like, wow, this is you know, and this, these are people who would like, you know, last year said, I'll never write again. Yeah, so you know, and to see that. Sometimes, you know, you mean, you just got to kind of go with the flow. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 1:11:10
I cannot agree more. You know, when, when I first met Alison, she was sort of the one who, who pointed out to me, you know, how, again, there's no reason for an artist to ever stop getting better. And it's kind of like what you're talking about the acid staircase? We'll call it the acid stairs for now. Where, where, you know, Hitchcock was walking up the acid stairs. So the day he died? I mean, he you could argue, you know, in the 60s, he's better than 70, whatever. But, you know, he was, he was still he was making his best movie. You mean psycho at age 60? What the what, you know, you know, I mean, and same thing with all these all these guys who like steadily Go, go go. And I think there is some sort of misconception that an artist has to be very young or so are you do your best work when you're going? Oh, stop it. You know, sometimes in some, yes, some guys do. And some guys don't. Who cares? So as you say, go with the flow. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:12:04
I think in writing, you can often see a pattern of people getting better as they develop. That's almost a profession where in your 50s and 60s, that's when you really hit your stride. Because you've not only got all that writing and reading experience, but you've got all that life experience to draw from.

Bob Pastorella 1:12:27
That's me. I'll be 50 next year. I'll be hitting my stride.

Michael David Wilson 1:12:34
Fantastic.

Bob Pastorella 1:12:37
Next year. So weird saying that I don't feel like I'm 50 at all. I'm 18. I feel like I'm 20. So there you go.

Michael David Wilson 1:12:50
Yeah, I remember when I was a teenager thinking it will be interesting when I grow up. And then as you get older and older, you realize, mentally you're still kind of in the same place. You didn't really grow up.

Bob Pastorella 1:13:06
I have those ays. I'm like, when I grew up, but wait a second I've grown up on. But I still feel like it's like when I grew up. I want to do this.

Michael David Wilson 1:13:14
I used to think like, oh, the adult seems so mature and in control, and you realize it's just a fucking act. We just pretend we're in control. So the children think that we've got our shit together.

Josh Malerman 1:13:33
Yeah, my, my drummer and Derek and I call that the myth of professionalism. We, you know, when we we started lying, we lived in New York, the band was lived in New York for four years. And we would just lie to places if they asked if we had experience, because we're like, oh, like at a coffee shop? Like, oh, yeah, no, I have experience I worked here and here just made it up. Right? And then the guy, the boss would invariably be like, well, let me show you how we do it here. And you're like, okay, oh, yeah, I might as well see how you do it here. And then I'm actually seeing it then for the first time ever in my life. You know, you're going to train you they're going to train you their way anyway. And we started to realize that like how many other people are like lying out here, you know, who is the boss line about suddenly, it all started to become this big myth of professionalism.

Michael David Wilson 1:14:18
Maybe Maybe there's the workings of another short story. They're just like this town where everyone's lying. Nothing

Bob Pastorella 1:14:32
sounds like a Ray Bradbury story.

Josh Malerman 1:14:37
Totally.

Bob Pastorella 1:14:40
Recreate we're creating, we're creating a monster we're creating short stories is what we're doing.

Michael David Wilson 1:14:45
right. Well, this is what happens when you get Josh on the podcast last time we mapped out an entire film adaptation of Birdbox.

Bob Pastorella 1:14:58
There you go.

Michael David Wilson 1:14:59
Let's So let's jump into our Patreon questions. Okay, we've got a question from Eric Sparkman. So in a previous interview, you compared bird box to a black and white episode of The Twilight Zone. What would you compare a house at the bottom of a lake to?

Josh Malerman 1:15:23
What is his name? Eric? Yeah, it was. Yeah. Eric wow, I that is a really awesome question. Because with the, with the novel follow up to Birdbox, I had thought in the same terms of what is this and what that when I was thinking of this sort of deep oil, sort of painting. And I think that and as I told you, I was working on a house at the bottom of a lake at the same time, the rough draft at least. And I, you know, the silly answer is watercolors. And I really I think the real answer is, it's, yeah, I guess with how's the bottom, like, I see, it's definitely not black and white. It's just deep, you know, blues, blacks, greens, oil painting, that kind of thing that, but I do see, bizarrely I see. If they were both paintings, this painting would be a much larger one than very box, you know, if you walked into the same gallery Birdbox to me would be a much smaller black and white. You know, work on one wall, and then on on the end of the wall that might be like, a house of the Bible. Like it could take up like a whole wall or something by itself. And I'm not sure if that's because of the love in it and or the or, or maybe I think it has more to do with the there's there's something there's some something subconsciously going on, I think with the characters throughout the book and their relationship to the house. And so I think that their Canvas would need more room. Whereas Birdbox is a very claustrophobic tight, like Arrow of a story. So to answer I would say. Yeah, whereas blurbed Birdbox is black and white. This one I would say is a grand dark oil painting.

Michael David Wilson 1:17:15
I guess it's so big because it comes back to the idea of the water and how expansive it is. I mean, if you think of water, if you think of the ocean, it's seemingly infinite. I think that also ties into why we find it so scary as a character generally why the water is so intimidating. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 1:17:41
no doubt. No doubt. Definitely. Awesome. I just wanted to say that again, Eric. Awesome question.

Michael David Wilson 1:17:50
Well, the next question is from Sarah Reed. And Sarah said, she had the pleasure of seeing you and Alison read some of your work in the tunnels beneath the Stanley Hotel. It was more of a performance than a reading. And afterward, you described how you've designed your readings to be very interactive for your audience. Sarah would like to know, will you be doing more of that with the new book? And do you have a performance planned out or any details you can share about the process?

Josh Malerman 1:18:29
Another great question. And I yeah, I know, Sarah. Well, we had asked, well, I know her from from I'm at the Stanley we had awesome conversations about her life and mine. And I'm, and I know we're online since then, too. But um, I do know, I almost, I mean, why it's not like it's a big secret what I have in mind, but I definitely do have a performance in mind for this one. And there's a fella in town, who owns a bookstore, called Book beat. Him and his wife own it. And the guy has like an art installation, where he is an aquarium, where it was where it's like a giant aquarium where he sets up like a false sort of glass, and behind it is everything's supposed to be underwater. So my plan is to get together with him and discuss how we could you know, while I narrate the story, the character the I guess the characters would act it out, or it doesn't have to be acted out, literally, you know, but it would be Yeah, the audience would be seeing an underwater scene, while the band or musician friends play, scary movie soundtrack, that kind of thing, just like we did with the Birdbox readings. And while I narrate Yeah, I mean, look, the idea of me alone at a podium reading is just so silly. I don't have a scary voice. You know, I don't know. I don't know if any of us do you know, all of us, all of us for Are others I can't imagine any of us getting up there. And you know, a few of us do, I guess but, but um, so the way I see it is it's like, and maybe this is, this is because of the band. But I see it as a hey, man, this is a chance to like put on a little bit of a show. And it doesn't have to be that much of a show. You know, we're not talking about like canned canned girls and lights, right. But you know, with Birdbox, it was as simple as blindfolding the audience and playing a soundtrack. And in this case, maybe a little more expansive than that, talking to the book beat owner about, you know, how to how he does his underwater scene, and then again, having like a soundtrack, so yeah, definitely want to do something. I don't know exactly where we're going to, like, where, where what cities, we would do it in yet. But maybe, Michael, that's something you and I could talk about, in terms of, you know, which cities might might be cool to go do that in, you know, to promote the book? Well, yeah, definitely.

Michael David Wilson 1:20:57
Definitely. And, I mean, if you set something up with that guy, if we can create a reading there, it would be great to get a video version of that. And then we can put that on YouTube. And all of our listeners can check it out. Because I mean, like, yeah, your performances are the kind of thing that we want to share with everyone. So if we, if we can put that online, then those people who can't physically get there, get to experience a snippet of it and get have a taste for what your live performances are like.

Josh Malerman 1:21:37
No doubt. You're right. That's a great idea. And the reading should be at Book me, because why not? The store is amazing to begin with. So yeah, why not? Yeah, that sounds great.

Michael David Wilson 1:21:46
I mean, that's the kind of thing where the potential for the video is so enormous that you could almost just have a private reading. And you could record that and put it online. And I think it will do very well. And, you know, like, irrespective of how much even from a kind of marketing point of view that we can get into sales, in terms of just creating a cool video piece and giving people something else to enjoy. I think it's worth it for that alone.

Josh Malerman 1:22:23
Yeah, I think that you're right. I think he just had something key, which was like a private reading, and only because in terms of like, hey, let's get a good let's get a really good one on film, that kind of thing. Versus like, well, we filmed it, which is, you know, normally how it goes. Right?

Michael David Wilson 1:22:39
Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's no reason why you can't then take that reading, and have it as a public performance. Not on film. Yep. But for the filmed version, I think a private reading would be great.

Josh Malerman 1:22:56
Yeah, I agree.

I'll follow up with him tomorrow about it. So yeah, it sounds great. Summing

Michael David Wilson 1:23:07
chaos that Sara sandwich we just glossed over but you reading your work in the tunnels beneath the Stanley Hotel. Let's not just gloss over that. That must have been a tremendous experience in itself.

Josh Malerman 1:23:22
Oh my gosh, yeah, it was man. It was pitch black down there. And I mean, just to up the ante here. We were planning on doing Birdbox. Right. And we're walking towards the building, you know, from the parking lot. And Alison's like, Hey, do you have any ghost stories? And I was like, well, well, I mean, yeah, but we've only ever done Birdbox you know, and she was like, well, we should do a ghost story. I'm like, I know what else and like, we we've never done it out, you know, out loud. Like, no, we're not going into the, you know, basement of the tunnel beneath the Stanley and reading a story for the first time, by the way with Jack Ketchum also reading a story after us. So it was nice. It was like, No, we're not no, we're gonna do Birdbox and then, you know, Southern just struck me and this is my favorite thing about Allison in my life is that she's always she's just more spontaneous or something. So I was like, okay, you know what? You're right. Let's do it. Okay, look, you're gonna play the character, Barry and the mom. And she's never read this story. It actually was the bigger bedroom the one that we were talking about earlier. Yeah. earlier. And we went down there and yeah, for the and Allison had painted herself up in a really cool way. And so for the first time ever read that story out loud. And Allison was awesome as the little boy and the mom. And and, like pitchblack was, I don't know, I don't know how many. I don't know how many people were there. I don't even remember it that way. Exactly. And then we did our story. And then Jack Ketchum did a story I think called the rifle. Do you guys know that one?

Michael David Wilson 1:24:57
Of his work, but I'm not sure about that. Well, how does it go?

Josh Malerman 1:25:02
It was horribly dark and disturbing. How's that?

Michael David Wilson 1:25:07
That sounds like all right.

Bob Pastorella 1:25:11
Hold on. It's coming to me. That sounds like Jack Ketchum.

Josh Malerman 1:25:15
And you've read. And I heard that there was a tour the next day, through the tunnels, or some other events, but people were down there that had been there at the reading. And the reading was brought up and supposedly someone heard it go say I liked it. Somebody heard I gotta say, like, I liked it, about the reading. And then

Bob Pastorella 1:25:41
Stanley Hotel. Yep, they were they filmed the shining, know

Josh Malerman 1:25:45
where the Stanley Hotel is where Stephen King stayed and thought of The Shining.

Bob Pastorella 1:25:53
Okay, so that's good. So yeah, we're, we're excuse me, we're even deeper net. We're at the inspiration. Yeah, yep. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 1:26:02
Rain for the see one. And

Bob Pastorella 1:26:04
it was a ghost there that liked your story.

Josh Malerman 1:26:08
You know, these, a few people. They're like, I swear and let like, Listen, this happened. Someone said I liked it. And then when we were looking around for who said it, you know, nobody fessed up to saying it, and they're like, in the person that was standing next to her. So I heard it in the open space next to her something. Yeah, but somebody, that's what they say.

Bob Pastorella 1:26:25
Best fucking blurb ever. You need to use it. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 1:26:29
you know what? It's totally fucking. I liked it.

Bob Pastorella 1:26:35
I liked it a ghost at the Stanley Hotel. That's the deal.

Josh Malerman 1:26:41
Dude, I'm using that that is really awesome. Bob.

Michael David Wilson 1:26:44
You should you definitely hear it. If the ghost had said it to our house at the bottom of the lake, I'd have been putting that in the blurbs.

Bob Pastorella 1:26:58
Everybody's like, has this ghost read other books? What's the ghost opinion of this book?

Josh Malerman 1:27:07
Oh, man, that's kind of a

Bob Pastorella 1:27:09
bad rush of readings down there. I just want to blurb that. And

Josh Malerman 1:27:13
that's another great story idea guy that goes there and reads reads for the approval of a ghost that he never seen.

Michael David Wilson 1:27:21
I love that. And what happens to those whose stories the ghost doesn't like, there you go.

Josh Malerman 1:27:29
I get into late games.

Bob Pastorella 1:27:34
Yeah, I have a story idea similar to that with somebody who her husband is affected by ghosts. And the wife is jealous, because she can't see the ghost. And there's some dance that happened 20 Something years later, do you know that? You know, then this one character who's kind of friends with this couple, he starts to realize that there was a reason why she couldn't see the ghost. And the reason why she couldn't act or interact with Ghost. And so it's, it's it's under development. So

Josh Malerman 1:28:11
yeah, that sounds cool.

Bob Pastorella 1:28:13
Development Hell, let's call it that it's in. One day, I'll finish it up.

Michael David Wilson 1:28:18
Where I don't officially come into fruition next year as you reach your golden years. 50s That's a reset. Yes. Yes,

Bob Pastorella 1:28:29
that will be my my 50.

Josh Malerman 1:28:34
Bob with short stories, I've been starting to put like, sort of immediate deadlines on myself, like, you know, come on, man. Like, I know, I could write, you know, between three and 7000 words within like, you know, a week's time, that kind of thing. So anytime I have sort of a, an opening or known even when I don't have an opening from like a book, like a rewrite, or that kind of thing. I'll be like, Okay, you gotta, I'll give myself like a phantom deadline, like, you know, okay, by November 15. But this short story has to be done. And then by December 1, this one, and it's really, it's really been working out. Because, you know, all of us, like men have many ideas, right? And after a while, man, that backlog can get kind of intimidating to the point where you're almost afraid to have another idea. I mean, that's a bad place to be in, right? So I'm really I've really been working on trying to not not rush them. But like, come on, you have to have this plan done by the end. And this one does that, even if it's just a shitty rough draft, just let's get it down. You know, that kind of thing.

Michael David Wilson 1:29:35
And how does the music tie into your writing routine? Because it sounds like you're writing every day. But are you also doing something towards creating new music every day or does that happen more in phases?

Josh Malerman 1:29:52
Well, we have a very interesting thing happening in our band, which is that the band started When we started we in our first album had we had two lead singer like songwriters me and a fella named Mark Owen, a best friend of mine named Mark Owen. And we made, we made a we recorded a ton of songs together. You know, I lived in New York, we toured, but then we made our first official album as a band. Mark was one of the singers, but then Mark left the band, like shortly thereafter. And then it became just me, the drummer and bassist for what was like eight or seven or eight years or something. And then very recently, Mark called us up and he's like, hey, you know, and at this point, it had been like, 12 years, because we added another fella named Steven Palmer. He's been around for years and on two albums, two albums that I love. And then Mark called up and he's like, Hey, I am moving back to the area to Detroit. And I'd love to play with you guys again. And it kind of struck me like, Wow, what an awesome odd thing. This could be for a band to have their first and like ninth album have like two lead singers. But those seven in between our it was just me and Derek and Chad. And I think that's kind of a cool tool, strange thing to do. And I think, and I'm not trying to Pat us on the back. But I think a lot of bands would have been like, No, you know, we'll maybe a side project or that's not our identity or something. But we're just looser than that, you know, and I'm so I'm like, Yeah, Mark, come on. So what's happening right now is, we are and we are practicing tomorrow, actually, we're, it's funny, we're like learning a whole, like new set pretty much, which is also like, refreshing, you know, we've been playing, we have a lot of songs. So it's not like we've been playing the same songs forever. But to welcome back like a best friend who's not, he doesn't just play the tambourine. I mean, he's a lead singer for crying out loud. And so to welcome him back, it's like, we're now in the stages of sort of like, rebuilding, you know, like, Okay, now we know, six songs together. Whereas before Mark joined, we knew like 50 songs together, the other four of us, you know, so that's the stage we're in right now. But I have to admit that, you know, for a long time, I either wrote a novel, or a song. And for a long time, I didn't have any short stories, if there was a short story idea, it became one of our songs, and if it was a larger idea became a novel. And so, but within the last three, four years, I've been writing short stories, and tons of them, and really loving this, and even have a book of short stories that I am hoping to put out with Harper Collins. Well, I'm going to talk to them about that soon. And, but I, because of that, I have noticed that the songwriting sign is has suffered because of that. I'm not writing as many or I mean, suffer, that's a harsh word, but I'm not writing as many songs, I don't have as many new ones. But I'm like, you know, part of me wonders, like, how much of the there is definitely an imbalance going on where I'm writing stories, you know, 95% of the time in songs, you know, when I can kind of vibe, and I was some part of me wonders, like, how much of that is just from encouragement, meaning, there is legitimate encouragement on the writing side, you know, and so it's very exciting to sit down and write another story, you're like, oh, my gosh, you know, you're asked to be like, let's say, in an anthology, or where you are, you want to submit it to a magazine, or you're working on your next novel, and it is very exciting to know that, you know, there's, there are like, readers that like, you know, the stories and, and it's not that the band is, has never received any love or something, but the book side is really, you know, dwarfing it right now or something. And I think that it's up to me, in terms of even just for myself and for my bandmates, and for the sake of us having been best friends, since we were 10 years old, and toured the country for six years. It's really up to me who, like, say to myself, like, Hey, Josh, like, write a killer album, right? Like, get like, let's get into this. Let's let's get moving on this side again. And I know that only good things will come from that. But I guess I'm just being very honest, when I say that that side of it has dipped recently, because of all the books stuff.

Michael David Wilson 1:34:22
And I think in life, things can come in phases. And it does come back at some point to this idea of not being able to do everything you want. So if you're writing, and you're really infused about that, then you will have a little bit less time for music, but it might be that there's an album that absolutely lights you up and you spend the majority of a year going intends on that. And racing is perhaps the 5%. So I think as long as you're Akiva And you're doing something that's, that's the main thing. I mean, I'm editing podcasting and writing, but I can't do all at the same time. So at different phases in my life, different strands will take precedent. Yep, I'm

Bob Pastorella 1:35:17
the same way when it comes to I spend most of my time writing, mainly because I have carpal tunnel in my hands. But my original creative endeavors were actually in art drawing in music. But even the bar and the music were all horror themed, you know, some was a kid, I would draw up, you know, my, my lineup of the Universal Monsters, I'd have them all kind of walking, you know, and I drew this lineup, and I do that over and over and over, it's just like, practice for me. If I start drawing something, now, I won't write. Because I'll get so into drawing that I'll do, I'll do 10 to 15 drawings, and almost say, like, the majority of will be just crap. It's just stuff I have to get out of my head. And I might get one decent drawing out of the whole group. But it's, you know, I just, I'm not one of those. I can't mix those two up. They're just I've tried it, it don't work that way. I will either do one or the other.

Josh Malerman 1:36:20
I know, I don't know what it is, I you know, I started I started to see them as like, like, like two giant spheres where, where it's very hard to exit one and step into the other, like, you think, Oh, I wrote this morning. Now go pick up the guitar. And yeah, sure, you can pick up the guitar and play whatever. But in terms of creating, it's not, it's not a very easy transition to make. And I, it must be something that we're not even fully aware of or understand. Because it must be like the state of mind you are in to write is just different than it is to draw, you know, or to work on music. I've experienced that same freakin thing. And I had it go on for a minute. I had a juggling act going for a minute with that. And it was great. But most the time I'm right with what you just said, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 1:37:09
Well, it's just, it's, it's hard for me to juggle it. I'm kind of a one. You know, I used to eat one thing at a time. So I'm kind of like OCD like that. But you know, I mean, Michael is probably thankful that, you know, I'm not drawing right now. Because I wouldn't be doing any writing and things would just pile up. And I'd be like, but I'm drawing, you don't understand. I've got ink all over me. And not the kind that he wants.

Michael David Wilson 1:37:40
I think all of this ties in quite nicely to the next Patreon question, which is from Adrian shot bolt. Adrian would like to know. So with you being a musician, does music have much of an influence on your writing? And vice versa? Does the writing influence your music? So I know that we've touched on this a little bit, but if there's anything that you'd like to add?

Josh Malerman 1:38:10
Yeah, for sure. Like we were talking before about the drummers behind each book. And I know that, you know, it's probably my son, Adrian was at the name. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I know my son like crazy Adrian to talk about that. In like, third person, like, oh, there's a drummer and he played but he was real steady, you know, obviously, you're talking about yourself, right? But it does really seem that the the rhythm of the books in the stories have just, they have their own rhythm. And I'm and I do not resist, I don't resist them. I don't fight them. And I think that there's no question that playing with Derek our drummer for, you know, again, since for so many years, there's no question that that has influenced that in some way, you know, I would bring a song to the room. And I don't tell Derek what to play, you know, we all do what we want, you know, so then whenever he's playing, I'm playing. Eventually, even though I'm writing wrote the song, I'm playing what belong to his beat, you know. And so I feel like the stories they inform each other that way, also, as I was just saying, that for a long time, the short story ideas became our songs, they influence each other that way, too. I think maybe the biggest way that they influence each other, and this is also probably the most, the least colorful, is just like the dedication work, work ethic side of it, you know, it's with writing, it's very clear, very linear, that if I do this much a day or this much, you know, work for this many hours, I will have, you know, a novel at the end of a few months, that kind of thing. And so, whereas with music, it's not quite, you're not going to say well, I'm gonna write a song every day or something like that. But that same sort of philosophy as if I dedicate like, you know, if I sit down and I actually work on this for two, three hours a day we are going to have an album and in a few months, the same as I can novel. So there's, there's no question that at least you know, I mean, and excitedly So, the one thing I would like to see is that, you know, the band is real, is real, real bright, like real. I don't know if pop is the right word, but real bright and in REM positive. And then and then the books are, I wouldn't I would not say that my books are like super dark or disturbing, you know, but they're, but they're scary. And I would love to sort of find a middle ground and I don't mean like, writing like, you know, like a horror album necessarily, but, but you know, my friend Mark Owen had just posted on my page like, uh, I think it was screaming Lord such doing like Jack the Ripper, you know, and it was still like, a rock song. But with like, cool horror lyrics, you know, like that kind of thing. I am trying to look for some way to like, meld the two, like, maybe there's a way to make a sci fi album, you know, like that. How about we make like a sci fi album? Like, that sounds fun, you know? So yeah, they're definitely linked. And I hope to God, they always stay linked. And, and, and you can tell by the tone of my voice before, I am a little concerned about the music side right now. But you know, man, we're artists. If I'm concerned about it, it's up to me to do something about it. And and that's really all there is to it.

Michael David Wilson 1:41:15
I wonder if you ever considered adapting one of your stories as an album? Because I know, there's been talk of film adaptations, and obviously, adapting sections of the story for live performance. But what about actually adapting a story? As an album, even with a high strung or as a different musical endeavor? Is that a consideration? Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 1:41:45
a concept album?

Josh Malerman 1:41:47
Right. Like it because of DOM Sure. I would love to, you know, again, it's, it seems it's funny. You know, sometimes I have the philosophy of, like, if you're, if you're worried that it's too cheesy or embarrassing, like, that's the song you should write, because it's probably going to be the most colorful thing you have. And you just don't realize it right now. It's just, it's just something you haven't quite done yet. Or something. You know, like, before the who put out Tommy, they had they hadn't put out Tommy, you know, so for them to do that was doing something new and different. And they were, I know that they were at the height of their powers at that point. But there had to be some nervous something some anxiousness like, wow, how's this going to be received? Are we going to pull this off? That kind of thing? You know, and I think that the same thing with a concept album, like, you know, you're like, oh, I need the greatest concept ever. Now, not necessarily. I mean, it could be you know, about a meteor hitting the Earth. And that's it, you know, here we go. Let's just write the kinds of album about that. And then I think that, you know, I think as if, if I was going to approach that, I would have to get rid of that internal governor, you know, like, don't don't be too harsh on the idea side of it. Like, just like, hey, man, like, yeah, like, like, let's use this idea and go with it. Um, in terms of actually like, you know, an existing book, turning it into an album. Yeah, maybe I don't know. But I definitely liked the idea of a concept album or novel length, sort of like album thing. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:43:14
It's a case of Watch this space, and we'll see what happens.

So Jake Marley would like to ask you about your writing process. So again, something we touched on a little bit earlier. But he'd like to know. Are you an outliner? Are you a discovery writer, or a bit of both? He also said he's really looking forward to the release on Monday. So that's Wow.

Josh Malerman 1:43:47
First of all, Jake, Molly has a sweet name. Sweet character name.

Michael David Wilson 1:43:56
You've got a character now. Sorry, Jake. You're in a short story. Right.

Josh Malerman 1:44:01
Well, yeah. Except that's also great author name. Um, so you know, forever. I used to look at that, like, Oh, if I wrote an outline, well, then it's, then that's just an experimental short story. And it's done. That way, when I'm like, wait, what do you mean, I already know, everything goes, Wow, that sounds boring to write it now. You know. And then something very recently has changed my mind on that. And it was it's actually, I, as you know, I'm working on a film script for A House At The Bottom Of A Lake. And I really outlined this thing of obviously, according to the to the book, but I really, really outlined it and then to write the script, knowing what was coming next. And it's the first experience I've ever had with that with knowing, you know, working on a written work and knowing exactly where it was going. And oh my gosh, guys, it was beautiful it was, it became, it became more of like, the best way to do this versus oh boy, what happens next, you know. And, or, or just that sort of subconscious, like, let's just fly. This was, I discovered that I really kind of liked having the outline. So what my answer to that is, I think I've written something like 27 books now 27 novels or something and never have used an outline before, always flying by the seat of my pants, you know, written myself into a couple corners, one of which I didn't get out of. And that book, I still haunts me a little bit, I want to finish in another corner, I ended up finishing, you know, the second half of that book, like years later, but for the most part got through it all by the seat of the pants. But, you know, let's reinvent ourselves. I think now, you know, now I am interested in the outline side of it. But if you Jake Marley, have always been doing things with outline, I would recommend you to try one by the seat of your pants.

Michael David Wilson 1:46:01
Definitely good to mix things up and experiment where you mentioned the film adaptation of a house at the bottom of a lake. I wonder what if anything, can we tell the listeners?

Josh Malerman 1:46:14
I mean, I guess I suppose all I can really say is that there's a producer who is who read the book, and really, really likes it. And I met with him in Los Angeles, and it really, really great guy. Really funny guy too. And we had a great time. And we talked about it. And he just his take on it was really, I mean, he was right where you and I are Michael, like in terms of where we were talking in the edits and the things he liked about it, and were the same things we liked about it and like about it. And so that led to, you know, hey, for a moment that I was like, Well, do you want to try to find a screenwriter? And he was like, Do you want to write it? And at this point, my manager, that's sort of his specialty. He's representing screenwriters, for the most part, you know, before working with me and a couple others, so he knows a lot of that world and, and I wasn't foolish enough to enter this thinking like, oh, I write novels, scripts gotta be easy. Now. I wasn't thinking that way. I knew it was gonna be like, different and, and have its own problems or whatever. Just like imagine writing a, like an epic poem. You know, man, it's kind of have its own problems. Right. So with my manager, Ryan, and the producers, like, tutelage in terms of like, the script, you know, format and whatever, um, I got through the first draft, and then now I am in the, in the stage of rewriting it, and I think we're gonna be done with it, or I'm gonna be done with it in the next like, week or two. So there's no like news on it, but I'm writing it man. And I hope that we find someone that wants to make it to me, actually, similar to Birdbox, in a way to me that, like, it just it is, it seems cinematic already, you know, and how Bob and I were talking earlier, about the camera panning from, you know, the characters sharing screen time and the aerial shots of them above the roof below them. And, and it just, it's not. This is not to say that I gave the book The Best descriptions of all time, and there's so easy to see. But it is cinematic and Birchbox is too. And so, you know, we just got to find someone that also sees it that way. And that's that's the that's where we're at?

Michael David Wilson 1:48:36
Definitely. And I wonder, has writing the script for it given you a taste for screenwriting? Is this something you'd like to do more of? And would you like to, perhaps write something specifically for the screen?

Josh Malerman 1:48:53
Yes, absolutely. Um, yeah, man. It is. It's, it's hard in its own way. Because, well, first of all, I wouldn't mind if a movie went on tangents. But but there, there isn't as much room obviously, for tangents and that sort of thing. I mean, you can be I guess the whole movie could be a tangent, just call it Tangent, whatever, can be the coolest movie ever. But, you know, I have a fantasy of writing like 1000 Page scripts, because everyone's always like, Oh, it's gotta be between 90 and 120. And you're like, oh, stabbing. It makes me want to write one that's 121. Every time Yeah. But, but anyway, yeah, I do. I there's another I started a novel that I was really excited about. I made it about 100 pages deep. And I turned out and I was like, you know, this, this feels more like a grand, we all sort of play to me. And then at about that same time, another, a very good friend and filmmaker in town was asking me if I had any screen, moving film ideas, and I talked to him about this. And I am writing the script for that one as well. So it did start as a novel, but it's pretty much was from scratch as a as a script now. And yeah, I would like to do like to get more involved. But I also, if I sound a little hesitant is because like, you know, this is my first one second one really but it's my like second like real stab at it and I just want to, I don't know, I just want to see that I can really pull this off before I started saying yeah, I'm gonna write like 20 of them, you know,

Bob Pastorella 1:50:22
I wrote like three movie scripts that I'll probably only ever do it again. Then none of them are finished. But I went into it thinking this is got to be easier than writing a novel. Shoot. It's only 100 pages.

Josh Malerman 1:50:38
Yeah, I know. I know, man. That's if you if you think

Bob Pastorella 1:50:41
that future writers of the world if you think that don't, yeah, not true. Just because I'm dialogue and I don't like writing description, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can write a movie.

Josh Malerman 1:50:56
There's, there's a real real rhythm to it, you know, and that, that I think I got now like I we again did the first draft. I'm really excited about it. But now with the rewrite, I rewrote the first act so far, and I gotta tell you, it's fun to it's fun to be with these two, James and Amelia in this script, you know, I feel like I'm like, sometimes I feel like I'm like their chaperone.

Michael David Wilson 1:51:25
Right.

Josh Malerman 1:51:28
I'm like, Okay, guys. Now here we are in a script. All right. And so I need I need the two of you to look just just pretty much say exactly what you said in the book, right?

In fact, James just said it exactly. Like you said, into the book. And then, you know, that was a funny moment with the screen right? Where the script where I started, I started, like, struggling with their dialogue or whatever. And my manager was like, why aren't you just using the dialogue from the book? And I was like, oh, and he was like, Do you realize that what you were just doing was what every author hates when a screenwriter does to their book, you were about to not use anything from the book. And I was like, oh, yeah, you're right. He's like, Yeah, no, dude, just keep the dialogue that's there, the dialects Great. Well, and I was like, oh, and it all started to like, you know, come together or whatever. But I gotta tell you, it is. It's like, it feels good to be with them. Still, I'm glad that um, that I'm still like, with them, and and underwater with them and in the canoe with them. It feels good.

Michael David Wilson 1:52:32
I'm excited to see where they'll go next. Yep. So we have quite a long question from Mark. And I'm just gonna read it over to you. I wondered about sending this to you in an email. But here we go. So Mark says, You're a dashing rock and roll star who also has one of the best horror novels of the decade. stacks of other work already written. And a lady by your side who is not only dropped dead gorgeous, but also an incredible artist. When do you plan on winning the lottery, achieving cold fusion, and revealing to the world that you can also fly and turn invisible at will? Seriously, from the outside life looks pretty good right now? Do you have a lot of pinch yourself moments? Or are you just enjoying the ride? Have you ever operated with any type of script? Or does your current success exceed any past plans or aspirations? Looking ahead? Do you operate under any sort of business plan? Long range or otherwise? If so, how? And when was that formulated? And how does it continue to evolve? So a lot to unpack there.

Josh Malerman 1:54:04
Well, Mark, what city do you live in? Because let's get a drink. Let's like 15 drinks and talk about all these things. Man. Wow, to wow, the front half of that was like, like, scary in a way like I pictured like while you're reading that I pictured like the camera cuts to the guy that he's talking about and that guy like in the gutter with like a needle in his arm or something, you know? It's like it's not going so well as it seems. You know, that kind of thing.

Man, that's a lot of stuff. I will wow mark. Wow, you really went for it with that one. I will say about the plan. And in exceeding the plans, that whole thing. Um, that's a hard one to say. And this is something I think we talked about before Michael, which was that, you know, in when I started writing, and I didn't know another single other writer in this area, or any really, there's one dude I knew in Mississippi who had brilliant horror story ideas, but he didn't really write them down. And then, so I'm writing and I used to sort of, you know, interview myself, pretend to talk to agents, I would, I would pretend that, you know, each book that I finished, was on a shelf already. And I would like take it down from the shelf. And I would, I would even, like, almost like have arguments with like an agent about a book that didn't like with an agent that didn't exist. It was like a strange sort of delusional, exciting, and delusional world that I was like, going through what I was just writing book after book after book with no intention of shopping them not because I was so like nubile and anti, like, you know, establishment. But because I was in a band with my best friends touring the country, and playing, you know, a different city at night, and it just felt good to write these books. And that felt good enough. And so, you know, when Bird Box got picked up, and all that really, really exciting stuff happened, it was almost like this delusion look started to look more like a transparency and all the details and the shading and the colors were being like, filled in as if this delusion slowly became reality. And I was arguing with an agent, and I was pulling Bird Box off a shelf, and I am talking about a house at the bottom of a lake now. And so to say if it's exceeding what you had in mind, that's, it's a hard thing to say, because a lot of a lot of us writers, and maybe you included, Mark, were like, big dreamers, and big thinkers, and not just in like, Oh, I'm gonna have a best seller, not in that way. But in a, I'm gonna write the scariest fucking book that's ever been written, you know, that kind of way? And so, you know, to say, is it exceeding that? Well, I don't, you know, in a way, yeah. Because it's, it's like, wow, this is really happening. Oh, my God. And I'm not taking a moment of that for granted. But in another way, well, isn't it this kind of exactly what you were pretending was happening before it was. And so, in that way, I would say no, it's not exceeding it is a but it is definitely a mind screw, either way, a pleasant mind screw most of the time. And then in terms of the plans like I do, I personally, you know, would love to be a book a year comes out kind of guy. And, you know, I'd even love a book every six months, you know, that kind of thing. But I understand that the publishing industry doesn't really, it doesn't work like it, or doesn't operate like it did in like the 80s and 90s, and 70s. Were in. And this is the same thing true with bands where a guy will put out a book, like, I mean, all these guys we know, and girls putting out books, like, every six months, and that sounds so thrilling, right now, it's a of one's a lemon, big deal, you're gonna get another one in six months, and you know, and the who, and the Beatles and all. And all those bands are putting on an album every six months and the Beach Boys and you really got to watch them like develop. And for a while, I thought that was a much better scenario than this one, which is, it seems like a guy who puts out a book every couple of years at best or something. But for some reason, it seems to be working out like I am still getting to know these other authors as it works coming out. I am still watching them grow. And here I am, farebox is the only thing I have out and now housing at the bottom of a leg is coming out. And I feel like that feels like a great follow up to Bird Box. Okay, it was a couple years later, but okay, and then another book with Harper Collins in six months from now. So, so the there is I do have like, like hopes in a career arc way, you know, and but I think I also need to accept that the publishing industry moves slower than it did when we were all first falling in love with books, like in the 80s. And as to the first part of what you brought up. Oh, yeah. All I can say about that was crazy. All I can say about all that stuff is like Yeah, I mean, I would just love to get like, completely hammered with you and talk about all that, you know, like, like Allison, and then the stack of you know, sometimes that stack of unpublished rough drafts is I want to be buried with them. You know, sometimes it's like, I couldn't be prouder. They're, they weigh as much as me and they're taller than me. And then other times I look at it, it's like horrifying. I'm like, Oh my God. What am I gonna get these 26 stories out there, and it's overwhelming. And like, it's like cheering it's like a pile of pages teetering on the edge of panic, you know. And I can just imagine them all just like being blown by some, like freaked out wind or something. So it's an awesome thing to have. And as we were talking earlier, when you're feeling down, you're like, Hey, man, you got this body of work, but other times, it's a little overwhelming. And as goes, I know, I don't have to address every single thing you said, but it's kind of fun right now. And as goes Allison, yes, she is as phenomenal, phenomenal as she seems online. And she is pretty in person as she seems online, if not prettier. And she's also hilarious. And but yeah, I, you know, I I got the same panics and freak outs and bouts of self loathing and, and nights where I drank way too much and, and mornings where I'm like, oh, you know, the imposter syndrome, where you feel like, what the fuck am I doing here? You know, that whole thing? So I would say it's a healthy mix of both, but you know, loving it. Seeing it as reality, wondering what the hell is going on seeing it as unreality freaking out loving it again.

Michael David Wilson 2:01:15
Yeah, and I think it is important to counterpoint it as you did with the times when perhaps being Josh Malerman isn't so great. So I'm, I'm wondering on that point, what are your biggest fears and worries? Yeah, one one.

Josh Malerman 2:01:34
You know, I one time I saw Kristen, my agent and posted online, something. So then about it was like an article about being careful about your, you know, writing, like, your writing is your identity, that kind of thing. And that that article scare the piss out of me, because I really struck me like, oh my gosh, like, what would I? What would be my identity without writing? You know, just about every day in my life? What would be my identity identity without this without thinking about a house at the bottom of the lake without thinking a Black Mad Wheel and Bird Box? And all these things? Like, what the heck would I like, I don't even know what I would think of myself. So and I understand because I'm a whatever thinking man, and because I've seen enough other, you know, stories of people who were fixed, so fixated that they didn't, you know, didn't pay attention to the human inside themselves. You know, I understand that, I probably need to address the fact that like, Hey, if you weren't writing like, it's okay, you still exist and you're still a good man and you're still a good person and all these things and but man, I would, I would say that would be my biggest fear is to somehow not lose the publishing side of it, although that that would suck. But but the the actual writing side of it to lose that, like, even before when Bob was talking about that year off that Peter Straub took, I like had like, I felt like the hairs on my arm started to stand. I'm like, a year off, dude. Oh, my God, I don't even know if I would recognize myself after a year off. And that kind of in that scares you to you like, why, like, I mean, it's in your whole identity and what you're writing really? I mean, is it? And if so, then are you writing what you want to write? I mean, you can command that that's a worm, that's a downward spiral, if you want to think too far to that, right. So. So I would say that that's probably the thing that scares me the most also, just like, the rag, you know, same as you like, the happiness of the people I love. And that's, you know, those are my biggest concerns. You know, I worry about my brothers, my mom, Allison, my dad, and, and writing and whether or not, I'm leaning a little bit too much on like some bizarre character that writes a lot and like, who am I really those kinds of like, that those moments scan the shit out of me.

Michael David Wilson 2:03:56
What do you think, are any misconceptions that others might have when you introduce yourself and you introduce yourself as a writer or a musician?

Josh Malerman 2:04:10
I remember one time Mark Owen. I think there's a famous like English Mark Owen, isn't there or something, but I think there is but

Michael David Wilson 2:04:17
I think my best one who was in the boy band, take that?

Josh Malerman 2:04:23
Yep, that's it. But Mark Owen happens to be one of my lifetime best friends but a different mark. And he one time said, you know, we were on the road and our songs were very, like positive. I say they're so positive. It's not like we're like, you know, workout banners, like, but but they're whatever, they're bright and Poppy. And he, and he said that, man, if you put a patch cord up to my brain, it'd be like death metal, but for some reason, we come out with you and I write all these like, really bright songs together. And I'm like, I know, man. I don't know what that is. So sometimes I do. I do feel like you only get like, like, I'm like, let So you're on a panel right at a horror convention or something. And you only get you know, a few comments or something about this or that. And then you're like, if you made me laugh or something, you know, then it's like, Oh, I was gonna think you're like this real fun, funny guy. And maybe you are, but obviously, we're all so much more layer than that. On this podcast, I think that we've reached sort of a awesome philosophical zone. That I'm really happy that we reached right now. And I think that if someone were to listen to this, this episode, I would have it'd be hard for me at this point to say like, I didn't represent myself or something. Because I mean, I've been a motormouth for three hours you know, right

Michael David Wilson 2:05:48
this is what we tried to do with the This Is Horror Podcast is very much long form interview and a slow burn and yeah, look looking at the writing but also going that little bit deeper and looking at the person so hopefully we're doing that.

Josh Malerman 2:06:05
Yes, I think we are doing that

Bob Pastorella 2:06:09
Zoom part of the show now. We have it.

Josh Malerman 2:06:12
Are we tripping?

Bob Pastorella 2:06:13
A little Mojo Rising!

Michael David Wilson 2:06:24
When you kind of wake up and you realize your whole life as you've thought it was was just one big trip.

Josh Malerman 2:06:31
Oh, my God. Oh my god. I'm still on. I'm still on a couch in college right now.

Michael David Wilson 2:06:38
Well the real you is actually, someone who you think is one of your friends, someone on Facebook, for example. That's actually you. You could be Paul Tremblay. This is an extended Paul Tremblay trip happening right the second.

Josh Malerman 2:06:57
I just met him actually. I went out to Boston for a at the at the Merrimack Valley Book Festival. I can't rember the exact proper name for that Christopher golden. Go. I love love that guy.

Bob Pastorella 2:07:12
I see pictures from that you were there with Christopher Golden, Paul, Bracken MacLeod was there. Yeah. I mean, I love I love that y'all need to post more pictures of that kind of stuff. Because I live vicariously through those pictures. I'm too busy to go to those things. I'm just like, God,

Josh Malerman 2:07:30
I want to be there. It was a great time. And then But Paul Tremblay had whatever, sort of family like a death in the family, so he wasn't able to come to the festival apart. But then later in the night, he came to the party, part of the dinner drinks, like part whatever, like later. And the night really ended with him and I in a booth or a table, but in the corner of this bar in Massachusetts, talking about, you know, kinda like what software is about right now and books and the speed at which we want things to come out and the speed at which we don't and other authors, and it was really, I wrote him the you know, we we wrote each other the next day a little bit, but I, I wrote him the one I'm about to say now, which was It was refreshing for me to talk to, you know, another author, who particularly I think, is actually going through similar things than I am I feel like for some reason, and we talked about this to burn box, and a handful of ghosts are somehow linked, where we see them together often in articles and, and and, you know, people like people will recommend on Twitter, like, oh, read Birdbox and a handful of ghosts, it's almost they have, they are not similar in any way. But somehow the two of those seem seem linked in some way or something. And him and I were talking about that, and, you know, their stuff. It was cool, because you know, around here, you know, Kathe Koja, who was brilliant. I mean, my God, what a wonderful writer to have in town. She is one of my all time favorites. And John Skipp, all the way from LA has really, really, really helped in terms of just meeting him and talking to him about things and careers and industry and all that and just writing. And but I don't really have that many writers around to like, bounce this stuff off. And so it was good for me to hang out with him that night. It was like good for my for the big picture or something in my mind. You know what I mean?

Bob Pastorella 2:09:27
You met a kindred spirit.

Josh Malerman 2:09:30
I think so. I think him and I met him and I used many more nights like that, and maybe we'll get him.

Bob Pastorella 2:09:37
Keep on and I always forget that you live pretty probably pretty close to Kathy koja. Like so like, I lived where you lived. I'd be like, Hey,

Josh Malerman 2:09:50
man, I know. I know. We're all we're all going to her nerve theater is putting on a performance in January and we're all going to go see it. Had I meet up with her, you know, now and again, for coffee and we read each other and, man, she is as good as it gets. And she's brilliant. She's absolutely brilliant. So I know

Bob Pastorella 2:10:13
I'm not with a little bit with her a little bit on social media. She's real sweet. And she's one of my favorites too, is if I lived closer, I'd be bugging her a lot. I have more questions.

Josh Malerman 2:10:26
Yeah, no kidding. I know. And then you know who else is from around here is Thomas Ligotti. Oh, wow. Yeah, he's from like, I mean, again, like, like four miles from where I grew up like Thomas legati live in was working at this is bizarre, a band played at a live event put on by this place called Gale Publishing. And Gale publishing does like reference books and whatever. And Tom was the guy who worked at Gale for Gale publishing. So why, like we're so I'm like, you know, with my band, and their talent, and then the people. I think he had just left there or something. And the people that work there, were like, Oh, you write scary stories. Do you know Thomas Ligotti? I'm like, yeah. And they're like, he worked here, too. I was like, wait, what? What do you talk release? I have no idea that he Yeah, he's from like, this area, like the same like suburb that I am.

Bob Pastorella 2:11:22
There's very little known about it. So which I mean, that's on purpose. But you know, yeah, his work is phenomenal.

Josh Malerman 2:11:31
Phenomenal. Yeah. So those are two pretty good ones that have like to be to me to be bad. Don't ever talk to him. But those are pretty two awesome, awesome ones to have come around here. You know, that's cool. But again, you know, those man, those New Englanders holy cow, they got so many of them out there. You know, like, I couldn't believe it. Everyone I talked to at that festival was like, Where are you from? All like 30 minutes away? Oh, 20 my I live right down the street or two hours away. You know, like, everyone there is from that area, and meeting all these writers. And I was just like, Wow, you guys all had each other all the time. I am like, I'm like a total isolated freak out there in Michigan, you know?

Bob Pastorella 2:12:15
Would she be be where I'm at, man. I'm at the southern tip of the United States. Almost, you know.

Josh Malerman 2:12:23
Are you in like the keys?

Bob Pastorella 2:12:25
I'm in Texas. Right at the Texas Louisiana border at the bottom of the Texas Louisiana border. So yeah, I can go I can go further south. We can go all the way down into you know, Mexico. Don't want to go there. But I brought product to visit one day in Texas is so big. You can drive. Eight 800 miles east across five states. You go eight miles west. You're still in Texas. That's where I'm at.

Josh Malerman 2:12:58
What city?

Bob Pastorella 2:13:00
Nederland, Texas.

Josh Malerman 2:13:03
I don't know how close that is to Austin. But my band we just played at South by Southwest. We were there. You know in March.

Bob Pastorella 2:13:10
Yeah, I was. In April, I was in San Antonio at the San Antonio book fest with Max booth.

Josh Malerman 2:13:18
Oh, man, I did that. I did that last year.

Bob Pastorella 2:13:22
He said that you might try to show up this year. He told me that. And then on the day I arrived at his house. We were talking about who's going to be there and he says I don't think Josh is gonna be here. And I was like, oh, man, that had been cool. But oh well.

Josh Malerman 2:13:34
We loved that. Did you go to the there was like at that San Antonio book fest there was that. That like I don't know what you call it? It was at the theater, though. Were like authors, like there was like a read stories and people like voted for which one? They liked the best person? Did you go to that thing?

Bob Pastorella 2:13:50
We didn't we didn't make it there in time. We know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I know. I know exactly what you're talking about. And we went to the law of the book board, basically, the Barnes and Noble had set up to get signed copies of books. But you know, we had to set up. We were late getting there. We had to set up. I was intent on selling my book. And Max was intent on selling his books. I had some friends show up. A man like Matt Vercelli showed up and then had some personal friends who live in Austin showed up or actually near, you know, near that area, and they actually drove me and just to see me who haven't seen probably in a couple years. And it was LLC Who else was there. Joe Makini was there he came by for a little while very, very cool. Oh, yeah, he Yeah, he was like, I just looked down the road, you know? Yeah. So but uh, and we go into the lookbook board and everything. I was wanting to meet Whitley Strieber. And, of course, you know, ask us, Hey, are any of the writers still here and they're like, No, you had to be at the event in the morning and the guy said it so snobby Lee, I was like, I'm just gonna buy these books and like you You know, so? No, you know, but yeah, yes. I wanted to meet him, but I didn't realize what kind of schedule it was. So, yeah,

Josh Malerman 2:15:10
yep.

Bob Pastorella 2:15:10
But it was a lot of fun.

Josh Malerman 2:15:13
Get him on This Is Horror, on the podcast when we get when we strive around here. That'd be cool.

Bob Pastorella 2:15:20
Oh, he's a trip.

Josh Malerman 2:15:22
Yeah, I imagine so it will and I will. I'm gonna read. I'm gonna read Wolfen things thanks to you.

Michael David Wilson 2:15:31
Yes, anything you can tell us about Black Mad Wheel? Yeah.

Josh Malerman 2:15:37
Wow, Black Mad Wheel. Wow, that one, um, it comes out in May. I think I may have once told you what it was about but maybe wasn't an email. Essentially, it's about members of like the Army Band. After the war, they start like a rock band. And so they're like, great friends are all best friends. And they're like a band together. And they were in the Army Band. And then they're, they're sent out to the Namib Desert in Africa to locate the source of a very scary sound. And the Army pretty much was like, Hey, you guys, you musician, soldiers, like, tell us what the fuck is making the sound and the bandmates are flown out there and left to left the vine. And so if you can picture you know, Soldier musicians walking around with boom mics instead of instead of guns, that would give you sort of like the start of it. That's all I'll tell you about it now. But it's, I love it. I absolutely love the book. It comes out in May. The process was pretty intense. I had I had a new editor on this one. And he, you know, he edited as the ruins by Scott Smith, which I love that. His name is Zach Wagaman. And the cover art I keep wanting to reveal it, I have it. But it's not quite time to do that, you know, you know, you know what it's like to have like a cover on you that you want to show everyone but it's not the right time yet. So I'm waiting for that. And, and that's yeah, that's about it for now. That's that's what I guess all I can tell you about it. Black Mad Wheel sounds sounds like a like a song title. Because it is it was the song title of a high strung song that came out on an album in like 2010 or 2011 or something. And when I was when I was figuring out the title of this book, it kept coming back to something we'll something we'll and finally, I'm like, Hey, why don't you just use a high strung song title. That's, that's kind of cool. So so that's what I did. So in Black Mad Wheel. That's the name.

Bob Pastorella 2:17:46
That sounds like a book that I'm definitely gonna have to review. I'm not gonna let my team do it. So sorry. I love it. I love the idea. I can't wait.

Josh Malerman 2:17:57
Oh, man. Awesome. Sweet.

Michael David Wilson 2:17:59
Yeah, we'll have to get you back on near at a time. And, you know, dig deeper into it.

Josh Malerman 2:18:07
I think the way we're going we may just talk until it comes out. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 2:18:12
Sounds about right for us. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know if I can say this on the air. But you did show me the cover. And it is. Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic. And I mean, like, all of your customers covered so far have been they've just got a lot of attitude, a lot of depth to them. And they, they just work.

Josh Malerman 2:18:41
You know, it's fine. The Black Mad Wheel one sort of reminds me of a house at the bottom of a lake not not in composition or not in color, but it just in terms of there. It does seem like there's a depth to it. Whereas the bird box, the hardcover bird box, which I absolutely love, is just I don't remember who asked that question before. I wish I could remember that right now. There was the first question, the black and white question. And that original cover was like black and white. And I was like, oh my god, this is like perfect for this. Yeah. Yeah, yep.

Michael David Wilson 2:19:17
That was Eric Sparkman.

Josh Malerman 2:19:18
Yep. Eric, Hi, Eric. Again, if

Michael David Wilson 2:19:20
you're still welcome back.

Josh Malerman 2:19:24
Welcome back.

Michael David Wilson 2:19:29
Can I keep that bit in about having seen the cover I'd yet to know or HarperCollins is gonna be like, What the fuck are you doing? Send that to anyone.

Josh Malerman 2:19:40
Oh my God. Alison just walked into the room that I'm in and I was like, looking down and I looked up and suddenly she's standing in here and I like just jumped as she goes. She was really like, I really I just scared you.

Michael David Wilson 2:19:55
Like, one thing that I enjoy from yours Social media feed is you can tell that you and Allison must have so much fun together in terms of just playing horror pranks on yourself and on the neighbors. I think one that I saw recently had an Allison put like, a realistic doll or something in a car on the driveway.

Josh Malerman 2:20:25
oh my god, that one. Remember why? Let me just give you a couple of the Allison pranks on me. And by the way, they really they work every time. But this one, yeah, it was it was a mannequin. I don't remember why it was in the car. You Oh, you brought it to a photo shoot her son. So she had it with her to go to a photoshoot. This one wasn't necessarily a prank, but she doesn't she had left it in the car after. And then I went outside to have a cigarette. Oh.

Get away. And then that was who was that? What was that?

Oh, hey, will you scream for them. Okay, okay. Okay. She's gonna go practice I guess. Wow, we're gonna practice screaming. Wow. Anyway.

Michael David Wilson 2:21:14
Distant scream now. What's that in the background? Screaming practice.

Josh Malerman 2:21:22
Oh, that was crazy. Did you guys hear that?

Bob Pastorella 2:21:26
I did. I did.

Josh Malerman 2:21:29
the meters are saying that holy cow. Yeah. Like I feel like I have to like go to the hospital. How could there was that anyway,

Bob Pastorella 2:21:38
that scream was definitely what I call the Jennifer Carpenter factor. If you've seen the, but it's an Exorcism of Emily Rose that she was in her screams like when they're the best. And so I kind of gauge anytime somebody screams in a movie. Anytime a Woman screams in a movie. It's Jennifer Carpenter factor, you have to be able to beat that screen. That scream was there.

Josh Malerman 2:22:08
Allison would do that in each of the Birdbox readings. There was a moment you know where Mallory screams and Allison would do that. And one bookstore and I think Kentucky had got wind of the fact that you know, the author coming in. There's a girl that's going to release like a blood curdling scream in your bookstore. I just want you to be prepared for that. So they approached us when we walked in and they're like, um, so we heard that you know, one of you is going to like to suddenly like scream bloody murder. And you know, there are people like in the in the cafe and we were like, okay, okay, and then like, um, you know, of course I turned out and I'm like you you have to do it. You have to just do it. Go for it. Just go give it your all like don't worry, like, come on. Let's just go and she did. It was great. It was great. She's got me good. You want you want to hear a good prank I'll just tell you one. we had a penguin suit sitting on our on our front porch just sitting there forever, like four months. And I was at a pool tournament which I won by the way. And I came back and I was so excited. You know, and I'm like in the wintertime and I'm like trotting up the steps on the front porch. And that fucking penguiin stood up and I like dropped the like the the, the sheet of paper that said, I won. And I like left back. I mean, that penguin was in dirt for six months. And then it just stood up and it was Alison wearing this penguin suit in like, waiting for me for who knows how long in the winter you know?

Bob Pastorella 2:23:43
With just crazy no

Josh Malerman 2:23:45
hint of it man. I lost I was like, Oh my God, you know and we like you know, I mean, my mind is in the in the supernatural clouds all day anyway, so you know, to me, I was like it's happening. Everything is happening

Bob Pastorella 2:24:05
dri was like your Rosemary's Baby moment?

Josh Malerman 2:24:08
This is no dream!

Bob Pastorella 2:24:12
That's awesome.

Michael David Wilson 2:24:15
Yeah, before we go, what advice would you give to your 18 year old self?

Josh Malerman 2:24:28
Wow. Well, between ages like nine to 18 and 29 or something i i had started and not finished five novels. And to me that's the only failure is not finishing. If you write a lemon, you write a lemon but who cares? You wrote a fucking book. It's that is the success to me. It can be the worst thing who cares? Boring. It doesn't matter. And I think I would tell my 18 year old self who who when I think about it like he did a lot. He was doing a lot right in terms of what he was in love with and when he was like, you know, excited about, but I also think in justifiably so when you're only 18, I think my 18 year old self probably was like, you know hanging out with his friends, like all like you could have worked in, you could have finished these books with these like small little small little tricks or whatever. And I would give, I would tell him, one of those tricks is never to worry if what you're working on is good or bad to get rid of the words good or bad. And I don't mean to sound like the Tony Robbins of horror literature or something. But if you can just get rid of like literally the words good or bad, you do not exist in the rough draft stage. I think that my 18 year old self and for the next 10 years would have finished those five novels, they still haunt me a little bit. And I should be okay with all that. Because of all the writing. That's happened since then. But every now and then I'll be like, Man, what, if you want to finish those books? What would they have been like? And what would they have been about? You know, and one of the main it's 300 pages, man, and I didn't finish it 300 I mean, at that point, all you got to do is write the end. I don't care what scene you're on. Just write the end.

Michael David Wilson 2:26:09
Yeah.

Josh Malerman 2:26:11
So anyway, so that's where I would start is like, not necessarily go easy on yourself. But, you know, I think that at 18. So like, like, naturally afraid of so many things. Like, you know, I think it's very easy to think like, the voice on your radio is a deity, the the the names on the books in the bookstore are, are they're made of different stuff than you, um, you know, the band you see on stage or like, have descended from Mount Olympus with song, you know, and girls were horrifying. I mean, come on Jesus, my God. And so I would give myself as a 18 year old, so I would have my 18 year old self read at least the beginning of A House at the Bottom of a Lake and just see how James just walked right into right up to Amelia and asked her on a date, without knowing her that well, and not only just the date, a weird date, you know, that's the kind of advice I'd be like, you know, like, not go easy on yourself. But how about let's get rid of words, the words good or bad? And let's just see what happens from there.

Michael David Wilson 2:27:15
I think that's great advice.

Bob Pastorella 2:27:17
Yeah, it's kind of like that advice to give yourself permission to screw up. Yeah. In a way. I mean, it's, to me, I don't like that advice, because it invites, you know, just to me, it's like, Well, eventually, it's like, you can just write, I wrote three pages of crap, just the word crap, all crap, period, crap, period, crap period, I gave myself permission to screw up now I've wasted, you know, a month of my time. So I mean, you gotta you gotta strive to be better. You can't just, you know, go ahead and go, I'm gonna be bad every time I write, you know, it's, there's a happy medium, but you have to give your you can't beat yourself up if you don't, if it's not perfect in your mind, because it's never going to be perfect. You'll never achieve that level.

Michael David Wilson 2:28:03
But I don't think that the spirit of the advice is really saying, you know, to purposefully be crap, not to just literally write crap fighting. The Spirit is saying, you know, strive for the best give it your all, but be okay with the fact that you might fail.

Bob Pastorella 2:28:23
Right? I like that phrase better be okay with it. Yeah, it's not like a permission, but just be okay with it. Yeah, one cool.

Josh Malerman 2:28:33
One cool way that that crap story would work is if one of your characters got stuck on repeat.

Bob Pastorella 2:28:40
That's true. That's another story idea right there. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 2:28:42
So then, then if you just kind of squeeze that into the beginning of that whole like month long of writing the word crap, then it kind of works and then you wrote then he wrote kind of a meta masterpiece. Johnny was in the middle of a sentence when he got stuck on repeat. I don't give a crap crap crap crap

Bob Pastorella 2:29:08
he's gonna do that

Michael David Wilson 2:29:15
part of the art of that piece is of course you know, you could say in kind of interviews about it, you know, there was no copy and pasting you you were literally went out every day for a month? Crap. Crap. Crap.

Josh Malerman 2:29:31
Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 2:29:32
that's why people are buying it. They're buying it for that craftsmanship.

Bob Pastorella 2:29:39
Because Jack, because all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy was already taken.

Josh Malerman 2:29:49
I just spoke at a university here, a friend of mine as a teacher there. And afterwards, there was an 18 year old who was asking me questions And your last question just whatever just reminded me that I actually did have some advice for him, which was like, Man, you could, you know, fail at what you want to do or, or even get into the rut like you can get into a line of work that you don't, that isn't even right for you, you could have all these wrong turns for the next like 20 years, and you'd still be younger than where I am now. And you would then be the age I was when Bird Box came out. And we're all young right now, you know, like, the three of us are young right now. And it's like, I do think it's not a matter of like telling someone like, Hey, you have time wasted, but it is like, again, it's Yeah, it really all comes down to go easy on yourself, doesn't it? Like do like try your hardest Do you want to do but like fucking go easy on yourself?

Bob Pastorella 2:30:47
Right? Exactly.

Michael David Wilson 2:30:49
Definitely. And this is something that comes up again and again, because and this could be linked to depression and anxiety with within the creative community because normally our harshest critic is ourself.

Josh Malerman 2:31:07
Or your girlfriend.

Michael David Wilson 2:31:16
You're gonna get a scare later now.

Josh Malerman 2:31:20
Oh, man, man.

Michael David Wilson 2:31:24
Before you go, where can our listeners connect with you?

Josh Malerman 2:31:28
I you know, it's man, it's still the same thing it's been which is just Facebook, which is just Josh Malerman. And the author page and my own my personal page, too. And Twitter man, I'm not good at it. But I'm on there. And, you know, I am kind of active on Instagram. So in all of this is Josh Malerman in all these places, and I don't think there's another I don't use another Josh Malerman.

Michael David Wilson 2:31:54
And if there is and you find him well, he might disappear.

Bob Pastorella 2:32:03
I might smother him. That's another story.

Michael David Wilson 2:32:10
What if you like kept smothering the other Josh Malerman. And then he keeps like kind of self replicating. He's big every time but

Bob Pastorella 2:32:20
you want the speech? Right? Interview

Josh Malerman 2:32:24
on a weird note. I am working on a short story called Jessica Malerman where where I meet the me that had I been born with a girl. You know, your parents are like, Oh, if you were born a girl you would have named Jessica well I meet her in this in this story. Because we have like similar interests. And I ended up following her back to her house and I see how our parents are like, which are my parents are like, like a little different to her like very different to her. She's a girl and all this whatever. It's called Jessica malar man and it ends up getting kind of kind of freaky. Not like he does get tricky, though. Scary. And so a great free way to end this podcast is to tell you that I am writing a story while running into my woman self.

Bob Pastorella 2:33:11
There you go. All right.

Michael David Wilson 2:33:13
Happy Halloween.

Josh Malerman 2:33:15
Happy Halloween everyone like to thank you so much for all the work and getting paid to do the cover and the added notes were so not just really good, but they're also really like funny some of them the things that you wrote, right? Light it was it was a really great experience. And I you know, I I want to do another another and another and I just Just thank you, man. This is like, you know, it's a huge day for me. I got you know, a book coming out in two days. Thanks to you guys. So

Bob Pastorella 2:33:49
on Halloween, it's awesome. Halloween man and Halloween. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 2:33:53
thank you so much. i In the event that you ever run into someone in your life who is ungrateful. I am not like that person.

Michael David Wilson 2:34:04
I appreciate that. And I'm really happy to have worked with you on this. It's been a lot of fun. And I think we're gonna get a lot of success out of it. Hell, whatever happens it's already a success. It's an awesome story coming out Halloween with an awesome

Josh Malerman 2:34:22
yeah, I totally agree. All right.

Michael David Wilson 2:34:31
Great combination.

Michael David Wilson 2:34:47
All right, hope you enjoyed the Halloween podcast with Josh Malerman. Do continue listening after the credits because Alison was kind enough to perform Amelia sung below. As it is Halloween, we decided to put the interview out in its entirety. We normally only run for about an hour or so as listeners in the past have told me that's what they like consumable hour sized chunks. But what do you think? I mean, how did you find that? Would you just prefer us to put the interview out in its entirety, if you want to support the podcast, and I would love it, if you did so because it does take quite a bit of time every week to get this together, you can support us on Patreon. And you can pledge just $1 You'll get all of the interviews early. There are other levels as well which will include free ebooks and T shirts. So head on over have a look see what you think. www.patreon.com forward slash This Is Horror. If you've got the financial means and you can support us be hugely appreciative. I want to keep the show running go on it. Ideally if we can afford to do so I'd love I'd love to keep this going forever is a lot of fun interviewing people each week and dissecting writing processes, really exploring what it is to write horror. And speaking of which, we've got a Writer's Craft talk episode coming up in the next month or so looking at techniques for creating suspense that was voted on by you via Twitter. So that will be 20 writers talking about suspense and fiction. We're also going to be inviting T growl back on the show to talk about November's This Is Horror novella. They don't come home anymore but remember right now Halloween sold about a house at the bottom of a lake and it's out today ebook and physical edition and I would urge you to order it before Monday November the seventh because when you do that and you send proof of purchase to Michael at this is horror.co.uk I will send you the audio book free of charge and this may be the only way that you can get the audio book for free. So it's a good offer. Take advantage of it please do alright until next time take care of yourself look after one another read horror and have a great great day.