TIH 214: Paul Tremblay on Shirley Jackson, Supernatural Turn-Offs, and Ambiguity in Horror Fiction

Michael David Wilson 0:10
Welcome to episode 214 of this is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm your host, Michael David Wilson, and today we are going to be reconvening with Paul Tremblay for part two of our conversation. Of course, if you missed part one, all you need to do is head back just one episode to episode 213 and in that conversation with Speaker Paul about his new novel, The cabin at the end of the world. We talk about anxiety in horror and a lot, lot more. Before we get into today's episode, let's have a quick word from our sponsors.

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Bob Pastorella 1:27
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Michael David Wilson 1:54
and if you haven't done so already, you really do need to check out those unnerving magazine novellas. There are only 60 copies of both the Philip rocas and Michael Bailey novellas, and they're gonna sell out soon. So do not delay. Grab yourself one of 60 of the signed Limited Edition hardcovers. And with that said, let's not delay. Here it is. It is part two of the conversation with Mr. Paul Tremblay horror.

We've got a question from Kev Harrison, and he says, one of the things that I find makes your work so compelling is the ambiguity between things that are supernatural or beyond our understanding, and mental illness, or the effects of stress or trauma on the mind leading to an inaccurate perception on the part of Your characters. I wonder in your writer's head, do you have a firm view on which side of the fence your stories fall on, or do you, too enjoy the ambiguity of simply not knowing?

Paul Tremblay 3:14
Um, yeah, I guess sort of. I hate to keep saying it depends on the story, but like a headphone ghost, for example. I think my first envision the novel, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna write this, you know, ambiguous, but, like, secular possession story. But once I figured out what the story really was, I really worked really hard to try to build up both sides of the argument, if that makes sense. You know, to build up the one side of that. Nothing supernatural is happening. It's, you know, Marjorie is, you know, suffering a psychotic break, or, you know, pre schizophrenia, you know, it's just the rest is the stress in the family. And obviously he tried to build the supernatural side too. So I can honestly say, for that book, I don't have an answer in my head, because I really tried to to to fill in those two columns as much as I could. Devil's rock I have. I do think I have more of a of a sense of what, not the true story, but you know, what happens? You know? I guess I have my own opinion on it. And it was funny when, it came to cabin at the end of the world, I mean, I sort of knew, like, almost instance, like, Oh man, I'm doing another family in crisis and maybe supernatural elements. And I was a little worried about that, because I don't want to be like a one trick pony. But at the same time, I felt like the cabin novel makes a nice thematic arc with the two previous novels, all about families and distress, and if the cabin's going to be another go at an ambiguous supernatural element, I'm hoping sort of this is the biggest version of that, or maybe the biggest stakes. It's almost sort of like an existential or metaphysical ambiguous. Activity. You know, I know I can't do that forever. Yeah, it's not that I would ever stop doing it. I certainly still do it in some short stories here and there. But I think the next novel that I'm going to write, I'm going to try to stay away from some of that sort of ambiguity and maybe try something a little bit different. But I'm sure it'll creep in somehow, just because it does. I think because, part of the reason is because I think our own existence and memory and identity is a lot more ambiguous than we like to think of this. I think it just sort of reflects reality, and I don't know, and sort of the skeptic agnostic in me, like especially when it's novel length, because I have to spend so much time with the story, it's hard to shut off, like, the rational part of my brain, it's like, oh, you know this, this really can't happen, the supernatural thing. Yeah, that's me, like, 95% of the time. But then there's the other 5% of the time, like, if I'm alone in the house and it's dark and I hear a weird sound, or if I wake up after having a terrible night era, then there's that little part of me that maybe thinks that there could be something weird going on. So anyway, those are all the things that I just are constantly sort of swimming around in my head. I guess I would say lastly, that I also look as like if I think if, if I actually were to experience something that was supernatural in nature, or there's an oxy I don't that's not quite an oxymoron, because it's not word but to say like supernatural nature. But if I were to, if I were to experience that something like mysterious, supernatural, I think I would have a hard time identifying it, or a hard time saying, Oh, yes, that was something that's otherworldly. So I don't know. I guess I guess I tend to try to squeeze that into my books, too. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 6:44
and you mentioned with the next novel that that is something that you're hoping will be less ambiguous. Are you working on that at the moment, and from what you said earlier, am I right in thinking that your current William Morrow deal is for the cabin at the end of the world and then for a short story collection. Is that? Right?

Paul Tremblay 7:11
So it's cabin this collection, which will be out next summer, and then it includes the next novel.

Michael David Wilson 7:16
Okay, okay, so you've leveled up from a two book deal to a free book. Yeah, fantastic.

Paul Tremblay 7:23
Yeah, oh, they probably look at like a two and a half as a short story collection. Is not same as a novel, right in their eyes, in most people's eyes, in terms of, like, how they sell and stuff like that. I'm not actively working on the next novel, but I've been thinking about it for a while, like I have, I think, a general idea of I want to do, of what I want to do, but there's still, I'm still a little bit unsure, partly because I think it's going to be hard to write, which hopefully isn't the reason not to do it, because it should be hard to write, yeah, just because I haven't actually put, like, pen to paper yet. There's still, like, a few doubts here and there. So who knows? I think I just joked to somebody recently like, maybe I won't do that novel, and I'll do, like, a mother son vampire road novel instead, or something, you know, which could be fun, but I don't know. Yeah, I mean, so this next novel I'm thinking about could have like these three sort of parallel stories that end up sort of fitting together in a strange way. But we'll see. We'll see if I do it. I've been talking to my counselor, John Langan once a week about it. He gives me good ideas and some terrible ones too. I'm just kidding, John. I have to take a shot at him somewhere. You know what's funny? I I have to find my Patreon password again. I was going to log on and ask my own question. I was going to ask, why is John langen so obsessed with cacti? And to have me answer that, but I didn't get a chance to do it because I was on my phone and I couldn't find my Patreon password, so I couldn't ask myself that question. So I'm asking it now in the answer, and I don't know the answer. I just want to keep promoting publicly that John langen is obsessed with cactuses, cacti, excuse me for those. If the reason why I say that is because he has a story in the grim scribes puppets anthology that uses a cactus in a really original way. Shall we say?

Michael David Wilson 9:28
Okay, well, in a reverse of how Patreon normally works, if you're a patron, please tweet John langen and ask him, Why are you so obsessed with cacti? Don't give any context. Just as many of you as can get that question to John, and we'll see if that is something that maybe he can come on the podcast and address that. I mean, hopefully not for the entire hour. We might need to find something else to talk about. Out.

Paul Tremblay 10:01
No, I think you could talk about it at Lex, yeah,

Bob Pastorella 10:06
the image I have in my mind is, is, is when Max booth listens to this and sees that as a quest, because, you know, it'll be unending. That's the thing. It'll they'll never be an end to it, other than you know if, like, you know, like they have a social media fall out because of it something, but even that could be interesting.

Michael David Wilson 10:34
Interesting. No,

Bob Pastorella 10:38
no, no, no. Just more, more or less, just like, No, I don't want to answer any more of these questions, which would prompt max to ask five more, you know, like rapid fire. Pam, pam, pam, pam, pam, you know, I just, I can just imagine this. I'm like, Oh, well, this could, this could actually be interesting, or it could be just very painful.

Michael David Wilson 11:03
Well, the short story collection, what kind of makeup in terms of original and reprinted fiction, do you have in it?

Paul Tremblay 11:16
Well, so I turned in a draft. So, I mean, I imagined it could change. I don't know if my editor will decide, like, maybe the story shouldn't be and maybe we put in another one. But the draft I handed in was pretty long. I mean, it actually would be my largest book to date in terms of word count. It was like 115,000 words. So 19 stories, but all but two of them will have been a, you know, appeared previously in other anthologies and stuff like that. But the two originals are actually kind of long. So I think the two originals make essentially 25,000 words of that, you know, 100 plus 1000 words. One original is an almost novella. I really want to call a novella, just so I can say I wrote a novella, but it's ended up at like, 16,500 words, not technically the novella, likes, it's called notes from the dog walker. It's really sort of bizarre and fun. It's based the whole story is told via notes left by people that walk this family's dog. Yeah. So it gets sort of like weirdly metafictional. There's certainly a big connection to disappearance at the Opals rock in that novella, and I think one to a head full of ghosts as well. And the other original I wrote, which will be the last story in the collection, is a story. It's not, I wouldn't call it a sequel, but it's a story that takes place after a head full of ghosts with adult Mary, the tell all book that Rachel was writing has come out, and Mary is at essentially San Diego Comic Con. When she goes back to her hotel room, she's confronted by a sort of a rabid fan that is broken into a room and wanted to ask her questions. And that's where the frame of the story, and for whatever reason, what ends up happening is Mary tells this fan, a Marjorie Mary tile story, style story, you know, kind of story that Marjorie would tell Mary. So that's the bulk of the story is, I guess, the Mary Marjorie style story. So that was, that was kind of yeah, we'll bet it was kind of fun to to revisit the adult Mary headspace again.

Michael David Wilson 13:27
So regarding novellas, whilst most people define them as 17,500 words, the British Fantasy Award for novella does define them between 15,040 1000, the Black Orchid novella award. So there's a little in if you want to refer to it as a novella, and then you've got to put the asterisks and then the small print, according to the British fantasy definition. It's

Paul Tremblay 14:01
good to know, yeah, yeah. I was going by the Shirley Jackson definition, and I don't know where we got that from. It had to come from somewhere. So that's good to know. Okay, yes, novella, especially, you know, when the collection is published in England, it's definitely featuring a a

Michael David Wilson 14:19
original novella, yeah, yeah, you can do that on the British cover.

Bob Pastorella 14:25
Well, there's going to be people that complain, though, in the US version, it's like, we didn't get to novella, not realizing that's right, yeah? Like, yeah, you did. You did. It's just, it's different.

Michael David Wilson 14:38
Well, you mentioned the Shirley Jackson Award, which is going to allow me to segue into Ross Byers question, because he says, okay, Shirley Jackson is one of my favorite authors, and she obviously means a lot to you as well. What is it about her work that appears. Yours to you. Are there any lessons you've learned from reading her that you've applied to your own writing?

Paul Tremblay 15:07
Oh, definitely. I mean, I think there's, there's something almost ineffable about her work. It's like it's really hard to describe. I think in some of her stories, I think there's this really, the root in this really interesting realism. But at the same time, there's this ethereal sort of atmosphere to the to the proceedings, you know, almost not similar, in a way, to, you know, the movies we talked about earlier. I like the killing of a sacred deer. That's not quite a Shirley Jackson story. But I think there's some of that, just like off vibe to it that would be Jackson esque. I mean, definitely, obviously, a head full of ghost was hugely inspired by we, we've always lived in the castle. The thing that I admire about her work, that I think, that I that I wish I could do a better job with is, I think you know her, her wit her, her satirical edge that she manages to put in some of her works, like, you know, even after I recently reread The Haunting of Hill House, man, that's funny. I mean, it's terrifying and so creepy, but it's also, it's hilarious when you know Montague's wife, and this weird headmaster guy shows up, and the conversations they have is just so funny and biting. And I would say the same to her novel, which should be read by more people, the sundial, and the sundial has this, like, ambiguous, is there an apocalypse approaching, or is there not, you know, at the same time where there's this, like, old aristocratic family, almost like holed up in their old house, and none of them like each other. And it's just really this weird and funny and ultimately disturbing novel, yeah, so, I mean, I guess the lesson I take from, from from Shirley is, you know, whatever story that she had that she wanted to write about. I don't think she ever was worried about, is this a horror story, or is this a satire? She just, she just wrote the story, you know, because it was coming through her, you know, there was going to be sort of a dark streak to it. So I know, I kind of, you know, I'm certainly not putting myself anywhere near Shirley Jackson in terms of ability or, or, you know, how the stories comes out. But I like that idea of, you know, I'm just going to do what, whatever the story needs me to do, and not worry about how people might classify it necessarily, you know. And yes, I'm supposed to be writing horror stories for William Morrow, but I think it'll, it'll have a dark streak, just because that's where my interests go anyway, you know. And I would say that about, you know, Shirley and in the early work of Stuart Onan, you know, I think he could have cared less about what, especially in his first, you know, four or five novels, what the genre was, you know, he just wrote the story, and there was still sort of like these dark, little offshoots within them. So I know those are the writers that I continually interest me are the ones that mix your genre, and they do it in a way that just feels like totally natural to the story.

Michael David Wilson 18:12
Yeah, are there any new writers doing that, who you've read in the last few years? So you'd like to highlight

Paul Tremblay 18:20
Sure. Leave people out necessarily, but I think, you know, I love what Nadia Bolton does in her short fiction, you know, mixing sort of the political with, you know, the weird and the horrific short story collection I read last year, called things we lost in the fire by Mariana Enriquez, she's our Argentinian, was a revelation to me. I thought that collection of stories came as close as to reading a 21st century Shirley Jackson than anyone else that I've read. And it's not in any way that rips off Shirley like now. It's just someone doing Shirley. What I mean by like, it felt like a 21st century Shirley Jackson. It felt like the here are these stories that are what they are, you know, the effortlessly mixed genre, and have this, you know, really strange, indescribable atmospheres. And the only way to describe the atmosphere would be to tell someone to read the story. Then you will that will describe the atmosphere of the story to them, it was that collection is Enrique says first English translated book. So I'm hopeful. I'm crossing my fingers that there will be a lot more coming from her translation wise in the future.

Bob Pastorella 19:38
So while we're on the subject of Shirley Jackson. And this is kind of, I guess, kind of timely. Wanted to know your thoughts about the upcoming movie with Elizabeth Moss. And if you had ever read the book Shirley by Susan scarf Merrill, i.

Paul Tremblay 20:00
Uh, yeah, I did read the book. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Oh, I didn't realize Elizabeth Moss was was cast to be the movie. I did see somewhere that they're going to make the movie. Yeah, I'll be interested to see how that comes out. Because I don't think the family was necessarily enthralled with with Susan's book, but, but I thought it was wonderful. Mean, I can understand, you know, the relations of of Shirley, maybe not being happy with it, you know, being that close to obviously. I mean, that's their mother, and, you know, to see her sort of fictionalized in a way that, you know, makes it sort of like a sensational story. I can totally understand when you're personally sort of attached to that person, that you don't want to see that. But I don't know, as a Shirley Jackson fan, just a fan of good stories in general, why I did very much enjoy the book. So yeah, I'll be interested to see you know how they treat that in a movie version of it,

Bob Pastorella 20:57
right? It kind of reminds me of using, I guess, like using the subject in a in a fictional manner, kind of like, you know, like Naked Lunch, having, you know, William Burroughs character actually thrust into the story of the book that he wrote. Another one would be like Shadow of the Vampire, where you have, you know, Max, you know, whatever his name was, I guess it's max Shrek was actually a vampire, you know, and had that thrown into it. And so it's, I see this as kind of almost like, in the same vein as that, but at the same time, it's just, I didn't even know that they had a book about, you know, or a book called Shirley, yeah. And so it's like, when I, when I saw this, it's like, Where'd he get the idea from? So I dug it a little deeper. And of course, I'm like, Oh, look, there's a book I need to read, but then I need to finish reading more Shirley Jackson, too. So,

Paul Tremblay 22:06
yeah, I think that's, that's fine. It's an interesting comparison, you know? I think it also would a good comparison would be the hours by Michael Cunningham, which was a fictionalized account. I mean, the hours has, like, different stories, but part of it involves Virginia Woolf, you know, fictionalization of some of her life. You know, granted, that's coming out years after she's passed. And I don't know how many people you know still related to, or who knew you know, Virginia Woolf were around to see that, you know, I don't know what their response to it would be. You know, because Shirley isn't the book doesn't from my memory, because it's been a while since I read it doesn't really trade in the supernatural, necessarily, but, you know, it hints to some, maybe some, some comic harbor things happening in and around the Shirley and Hyman, Stanley Hyman, their family.

Bob Pastorella 22:57
Yeah, that's, that's what I'm thinking, too. I gotta say this, though that's like perfect casting with the with moss on Shirley Jackson,

Paul Tremblay 23:06
yeah, yeah, I'll watch it.

Michael David Wilson 23:10
Oh, yeah. Well, the second question from Ross, and this is something that I'm keen to hear your answer to as well. And I think, in fact, every single podcast we've asked you about it. So okay, would you be willing to give us a progress update on Charles Manson doesn't answer my letters.

Paul Tremblay 23:32
Oh, man, yeah. I think that's sort of Yeah. I think that's buried for now. I mean, it'd be kind of cool if I could do that at some point later. You know, I did send it to my editor way back, like after a head full of ghosts, and she thought it was too close to ya, at least one I had written so far. So, you know, never say never. I mean, I've certainly have saved all that stuff. I could certainly going back to that at some point, but I don't think that will be the next book or or within the next few but you never know. But that's really cool to hear. You know, someone remembering me talking about that book before and asking about

Michael David Wilson 24:15
it. Do you think now that Charles Manson has passed away, that Charles Manson answers my letters might be a more intriguing concept.

Paul Tremblay 24:26
I guess I would totally change the book if it was set in the present day. Yeah, I totally forgot about, I totally forgot about that issue. Oh, man, yeah, no,

Unknown Speaker 24:35
that's a screen board.

Paul Tremblay 24:36
Yes, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 24:38
We've got a question from Dan Howarth, and he says, with Paul heading to the UK on his book tour, what is he excited to see and do over here, and does he have any tips on staying productive while traveling?

Paul Tremblay 24:58
So. Oh boy. The the tip, the tips for traveling part, not really. I mean, I've tried doing work on a plane, and it doesn't necessarily, when I say work, like actually writing on the laptop, that usually doesn't go well. So typically, on a plane, I'll try to catch up on things I'm, you know, I wanted to read, or should be reading, or, you know, I'll write stuff down in my notebooks, if I'm trying to, like, if I'm, like, sort of in a pre Outline mode, like, I'll write down ideas in a notebook. As far as what I'm excited to see, I'm excited to see everything. I've never been to England before. So, yeah, I really, I'm not sure what to expect. I'm obviously super excited to see, to see as much of London as I possibly can. Yeah, I can't wait for the trip. You know, I'm so pleased and thankful that the edge lit conference is having me as one of their guests and are flying me over, and that Titan books are going to send me around for a week after that. We don't have any official I think we're, I haven't been given the official itinerary yet, but I pretty sure I'm doing a an event in London, one in Bristol, one in Liverpool. I'll be in Darby for the lit edge, for the lit edge conference. And I think, I mean, let's say this unofficially, but I think I'm actually doing an event with Adam Neville and in Bristol, which will be really cool. Yeah, so I can't name specifics as to things I want to see, besides just like London, I want to see England, and I'll be relying on friends and in my publicist to tell me where to go and to show me cool things.

Michael David Wilson 26:45
Yeah, have you extended your trip beyond the book tour? I'm wondering if you got, like, some book tour time and then maybe a week or so after, or are you planning to try and get it all in at the same time?

Paul Tremblay 26:58
Yeah, no, I, you know, I'm gonna, it's hard to leave home for more than a week, so I'm going by myself. So just, you know, I'm not gonna leave home for two weeks, so it's gonna have to all be done together in a matter of a week. Yeah? So hopefully, maybe even next summer, I'll take the whole family out. We can actually just, do, you know, vacation, touristy stuff, because the a few days before I leave for London, I get back from a week spent in LA. So July is going to be kind of a busy travel half month anyway,

Michael David Wilson 27:34
right? Yeah, I can imagine, oh, and I

Paul Tremblay 27:38
should say, it almost was just mentioned on Twitter yesterday that the London event I'll be sharing with Jason Arnold as well, which will which will be a lot of fun. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 27:49
it sounds like you've got some good events coming up. And I've been to edgelit before me and Dan Howarth, funnily enough, went to edgelit a few years back, and, you know, it was good then, but I understand that it's really built up and is even better now. So hopefully there'll be a great turnout for that, and it should be a lot of fun. Yeah,

Paul Tremblay 28:18
I really, I'm really looking forward to it. Can't wait. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 28:21
hanging out with Adam will be fun. I mean, it's always great to hang out with Adam, and if you're into your beer, if you're into your A or then you think you'll have a great time.

Paul Tremblay 28:34
I am. That's one of the things I'm looking forward to. I probably should have had that on the list. Yes, looking forward to,

Michael David Wilson 28:40
all right? Well, something that I often ask the guests that we have on, but I didn't ask you, but maybe, maybe it's because I hadn't honed my questions when you were last time, sir, I wonder what early childhood life lessons did you have growing up? Oh, boy,

Paul Tremblay 29:10
geez. Besides, like, send your younger brother upstairs first, if it's dark, and if she survives, it's okay to go upstairs too. Yeah, well, I don't know. I mean, I think, without giving myself too much credit, I mean, but I do, essentially work two full time jobs, you know, I'm a, you know, still a full time math teacher, and, you know, I do, obviously, a lot of writing as well, you know, I think one of the life lessons I received from my parents was, you know, a work ethic. You know, come from a working class family. You know, my mom split time between, you know, staying home. But you know, we were older, you know, she, she was a bank teller. And my father, for 25 years, worked for Parker Brothers, which is a game manufacturing company. They've been since purchased. Was, well, in the 90s, they were purchased by Hasbro. But you know, my father worked, you know, in the manufacturing plant. He worked in the factory. He was a factory worker, yeah. So we weren't poor by any means, but we also certainly were not. Didn't have a ton of money. But, you know, they you know, I saw how both my parents worked hard. And you know, my father, at a certain point, started taking night classes at a local community college, and it wasn't to further his career just because he was interested in reading and learning more. So he actually took a lot of English courses, and he fooled around with writing a little bit. So I would say that, and just seeing how my parents were, you know, very loving people, and had, you know, lots of friends and our family. I think the luckiest thing that I grew up with was that we had a large family that was around just like every Sunday we would go over to my paternal grandfather's house, you know, there'd be tons of aunts and uncles and cousins and, you know, I think a lot of people don't have that, you know, just don't have that opportunity for whatever reason, if you know family members are dispersed, or, you know, there's they're not close to their siblings or close to other family members like that. So for me, you know, growing up, that was sort of the luckiest aspect, I think, of my upbringing, that we had such a big, close family, which was needed because I was such like a small, skinny kid that, you know, middle school and early high school was pretty much like a living hell for me. So it was nice to have the family support. You know, where I would come home from that,

Michael David Wilson 31:35
yeah, was your brother bigger than you did he kind of weigh in, if people fucked with you during school, was that? Did you get that kind of physical support? Did you get the muscle as well? No,

Paul Tremblay 31:51
my brother was five years younger than me, so I was the oldest brother.

Michael David Wilson 31:55
Yeah, if you're 15 High School, sending in your 10 year old brother might be the best friend. Yeah,

Paul Tremblay 32:02
no, that's fine. I did play that role a little bit when I was older for him on a couple of occasions, yeah, but more, more often than I was this tormentor. I don't know my brother. I very close. I mean, I'm happy to say, my brother and sister, you both, I'm still lucky in that way, that my sister lives like a 20 minute drive away. My brother lives 40, maybe a 40 minute drive away, and both of them are two of my best friends. We get along great. That wasn't always the case when we were kids. Obviously, we fought. We fought a lot when we were younger. But as adults, it's been nice, you know, that we we've remained like, you know, as close as that, that we have. Then my brother's a huge horror fan. That's almost like, in some ways, even more than I am, at least in terms of movies. You know, he grew up watching all the stuff that I wouldn't dare watch, you know, right, when he was in fifth, fifth grade, I remember he had to sleep over, and they watched Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and that like, sort of set Dan on the path to being, you know, super, sort of gore hound who used to, you know, we had a subscription of fancoria. And, you know, I don't think I watched Texas Chainsaw Massacre until I was in my 20s. You know, he saw it when he was 10. So it's been a lot of fun to continually, yeah, we bond over horror. And you know, when a big horror movie comes out, we make sure we go see it together, like we we went to see hereditary Friday night at 10pm showing was him and I, you know, the two oldest people in the theater surrounded by a branch of high and annoying teens that I wanted to punch in the face because they were talking through the whole first hour of the movie. Ah, was so angry. I'll never I'm not gonna go see a movie like that on the

Unknown Speaker 33:46
opening night. Yeah, anyway,

Bob Pastorella 33:51
they'll go to the

Michael David Wilson 33:52
well we've with the cinema. I try to either only go to like horror film festivals, like Fright Fest is amazing, because everyone is just there because they're horror fans, because they want to watch the film. And if someone gets their mobile phone out, you know, people will just shout, turn your fucking phone off, like they will properly go for it. So it's like a really good atmosphere, unless you like getting your phone out. But other than that, like if, if I go to the cinema, it will be in the middle of the day, so where all the teenagers are in school, or just go to, like, some really late night showing. So I think when I saw antichrist, it was one or 2am that it started, and it was a Friday night in the center of Birmingham. So it was, it was really weird, because coming out of it, you've just got people who have been to pubs and clubs and absolutely wasted, and me and my friend had just shook up. Because we just saw our last von Trier film. And so what do you expect after that?

Paul Tremblay 35:06
Well, that's funny. I don't think a lot of American teens would be going to see antichrist.

Michael David Wilson 35:10
No. I mean, probably,

Paul Tremblay 35:14
yeah, although I kind of assumed, you know, obviously it's not the same level of movie. It obviously had a lot more buzz preceding it. But I kind of thought, Oh, yeah. You know, teens really aren't going to be lining up to see hereditary you know, this is more of like a quote, unquote adult horror movie. But yeah, I was mistaken. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 35:31
I think the trouble can be that they just want to see a horror movie, so maybe they don't know too much going in, and then that's why they're talking through it, because, for whatever reason it's, it's not giving them what they wanted. I mean, I haven't seen right hereditary. I want to. I've heard very good things about it, so I'm looking forward to seeing it, but unfortunately, that'll probably be when it's released on DVD, because I can't exactly take my two month daughter in

Paul Tremblay 36:06
No, you cannot. I would advise you against that, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 36:13
Well, I wonder what frightens you. Oh, geez, everything I and,

Paul Tremblay 36:23
I mean, they're sort of like the macro fears, you know, like what's going on in the world, socio politically. I just read this big article about Ultra right wing, you know, Sarko hooligans in Russia. You know, the ones that are sort of white nationalists, and how they train in the woods, and they're all like into MMA. It's like Jesus, so stuff like that. You know, terrifies me. As a child of the 1980s you know, dying in a nuclear war was probably my number one fear, and I couldn't have done without that nostalgic fear, having to come back. You know, in the last few years. You know, otherwise. You know, the day to day stuff, just, you know, the anxieties of being a parent, you know, they don't really go away. They just sort of change and morph as your kids get older. You know, my oldest, you know, can drive a car now, and you know, so it's a different sort of set of worries, geez, in terms of what scares me in a movie, you know, it's hard to say. I'm, I tend to be more of a sucker for, like, the supernatural. It could be sort of like a quieter touch. And I think that might be because, like, if I, you know, Texas Chainsaw Massacre or something like that, yeah, that's an amazing movie. That stuff really does sort of get to me. That's a less fun scare for me, just because it's so visceral. So I don't know, I mean, it all sort of scares me. It all sort of interests me. I think that's sort of why, like, I continue to write about it, because I like exploring it, like trying to figure out, you know, why it does sort of get to me and to other people the way it does. Maybe that's the math part of me. Like, I feel like a lot of times I'm trying to figure out the gears, or what making it you know, what makes it work? What's the algorithm? If there is one, I'm never going to write a math story, which I'm often asked, but I am interested in, like, how, not that I'm handy in any way, but that I can take apart things and put them together. But think story wise, I'm to a place where I can, like, look at something and try to take it apart and put it back together. And sometimes, in my head, I'll, I'll try to put it back together, like, in a different way, to see, if, you know, see what kind of feel that that might have, or something like that,

Michael David Wilson 38:40
yeah, I think with supernatural movies. I mean, the scariest thing is the possibility of what if. And it's only a very small What if at the back of my mind. I mean, I'd, I'd define myself as an atheist if somebody said, What do I believe? But there's always that possibility, that remote chance, that what if? But I do find that if people try to explain it too much, if they over explain it in the film, particularly if I try and add a religious element to it, then that is typically a turn off for me, because if you're saying, Oh, well, this is actually what's happened, then I think, well, No, it isn't. And then the scare has disappeared. And I mean, so that is what I liked, about a head full of ghosts, that ambiguity. But on that note, I'm wondering, are there any supernatural turn offs or things where they turn up and you think, well, that's just ruined it for me. I'm no. Longer scared. I'm out of the story or out of the film.

Paul Tremblay 40:04
Yeah. I mean, I don't know, like, I really didn't like the movie, The Conjuring all that much. I

Michael David Wilson 40:10
was actually thinking of that when I was thinking of terrible movies that took me right out of the story.

Paul Tremblay 40:18
Yeah. I mean, and some of that is just even sort of like, I know, like the, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, the recreation of of the Warrens myth. You know, they were horrible con artists, terrible people. You know, the idea that they're now like, almost like these ghostbusting superheroes in these movies. Before even seeing frame one, it was a turn off for me to begin with, right? Yeah. So, I mean, as far as, like, other turn offs, I mean, some of it I just reflects my age and my viewing. You know, if a movie just totally relies on jump scares, I get bored with that really quickly. Yeah, yeah, no. I mean, I feel like it's hard. I'm sort of in your camp, like I like the idea of the ineffable, of the indescribable. You know, you don't want to over explain it too much. I've actually recently had some arguments, last discussion with some people about a recent movie called The Dark song. Dark song. Have you seen that movie?

Michael David Wilson 41:22
I have, yeah, yeah, I haven't

Paul Tremblay 41:24
seen it yet. Yeah, I really liked it. I want to spoil it, but I'd be interested. I think likely, maybe you might have had the same reaction I did to the ending, but you're talking about, like, the explanation that maybe calls it up, sort of a Judeo Christian kind of system of belief. And granted, that's a I understand that's a totally subjective thing on my part, but I really enjoy the dark song. I don't think I enjoyed the very end of it, though. Yeah, I appreciate that. The director and the filmmaker, you know, just totally went for his vision. And I think it's, it's fine. It fits with the movie, but you know, it didn't just, you know, subjectively, it didn't work for me. Yeah, and you know, I'm more than willing to say I don't know if that's a fair criticism, because I do know there's a fair level of my own subjective prejudices or or opinions in play with that. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 42:18
I'd agree with you on that, and I won't be giving spoilers, but I will say that I think because the film as a whole was so strong, and I also thought that Steve rams acting, as per always, was exceptional. I I wouldn't say that it completely spoiled the film for me. I mean, the reality is that you'd had 90 minutes, or however long of of a great movie. So, you know, you can't take that away from it. But, you know, an ending will, I mean, it's ultimately the last thing that you see so it is gonna color your your perception or your reaction. But I would say that just because the rest of it was so good that I would still recommend that people check it out.

Paul Tremblay 43:14
Oh, definitely, yeah. And actually, I feel like the more time passes, the more I'm a little bit okay or or better with the ending, like it was just that initial, my initial reaction to it was not a positive one, but, yeah, but I agree his performance, both central performances I thought were fantastic. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 43:34
way around. So you contrast it to the conjuring. I mean, jump scare, tick, cliche. Tick over explanation in a Judeo Christian context, tick so it really wasn't, it wasn't great. The

Bob Pastorella 43:57
thing is, there's so many people that actually like those kind of movies. They're going to continue to make them. I mean, like my best friend, you know, if you ask him, hey, what's the scariest movie in the last, you know, couple years, he's going to bring that up. He's going to say Scott the condring. He scared the shit out of me, you know. And I've explained to him about the warrants, things like that, you know, and, but also, you know, he's also, you know, he'll, he'll say, like, you know, it follows, also, you know, pretty scary,

Paul Tremblay 44:29
yeah. So I love that movie. Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 44:34
I haven't seen a dark zone. I want to watch it tonight. You should, yeah, yeah.

Paul Tremblay 44:39
And I think in the reality with those sort of, you know, slicker, bigger Hollywood produced horror movies that, you know, they have a built in audience, you know, besides horror fans and you know, as teenagers, and which is fine, you know, I hold no i begrudge no one who goes to see conjuring and, you know, and has a good time, because, I mean, there is that part. Sort of, you know, the horror movie is just sort of the fun of the roller coaster, of the, you know, the jolts, or the thrill you know. Just think, obviously, you know, for, you know, for for us three, and for other people listening, probably you've seen so many of those things already happened before. You know, the conjuring is like the first horror movie you've ever seen. I can totally see that movie, you know, freaking the hell out of you. So, you know, I certainly don't begrudge sort of, like, the fun, quote unquote horror movie. I mean, I don't know, like I mentioned earlier, so many my my favorite movies are, I think you would call those, like, quote unquote fun horror movies from the 80s, right? Yeah, for me, it was mainly just the warrants. Was, like, a big turnoff for real. That's, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 45:40
and it, it should go without saying, although I say anyway that, of course, I don't begrudge Jeffers enjoying things, but I don't either. I mean, it's so, you know, personal taste. It's so subjective. So if I'm, if I'm saying, something didn't work for me that is, that is what I'm saying. I'm not saying this is an objectively bad film, but I I do wonder. I mean, there is an audience. There are a lot of people who like things like The Conjuring. But I wonder, do do a lot of horror fans like The Conjuring, or is it mostly casual viewers who aren't normally up for a horror flick? And even in asking that, I'm wondering, do I sound like such a horror snobbing If you're a true horror fan, you

Paul Tremblay 46:39
know? Yeah, no. I think there are plenty of you know, people who identify as, like, horror aficionados or her fans that do like that movie. You know, I listen to a very popular horror movie podcast called shockwaves, which has been a reading discovery. It's been a lot of fun listening to, you know, it's, you know, for people who are in and out of the you know, who work within the business and have, like, written for Fangoria, you know, they recently just did, like, a big list of 100 movies that you know, that everyone on the podcast likes, and you know, and you know, and they all like conjuring, which is fine, you know, because a lot of time you're talking about, and I think they do a good job of of not of being like horror hipsters, but also just enjoying stuff for Horror as well, like, you know, enjoying the conjuring for what it was, but at the same time being able to appreciate something like, you know, the killing of the secret deer. Yeah, you know, that's something, you know, I don't know. I mean, I try to, I try to push back and get some of my horror hipsterish leanings. Langan, that bastard, sort of playfully refers, refers to me sometimes, and Laird as horror hipsters. And that cuts deep. And then, then there's sort of the other side. And we throw another friend under the bus here, this sort of the other side of things, where Stephen Graham Jones, where it seems like he likes almost everything, which isn't fair, because I know there are some things that he doesn't like. So I don't know, I like to think I'm trying to be somewhere in the middle where, you know, I guess I still have some of my my hot takes or my strong opinions in regards to horror, but at the same time, you know, if try not to begrudge something, if it's fun or or not. But, you know, but I will say, I mean, some of that, I mean, there's a I do have a frustration in general, that, you know, horror isn't taken seriously, and not that, you know. And I don't mean to say that, like I have to take myself seriously, but you know, I would like to see the works that do have, you know something, you know, something to say not to me, not to be dismissed out of hand, because it's, you know, within the horror genre, I mean, I think that's getting better. There's certainly more acceptance. But I think, you know, of all the different sort of genres we have, maybe with the exception of romance, I think horror is probably the slowest to be gaining sort of literary, academic, mainstream, sort of acceptance, you know. And on some levels, actually, I kind of like that. I mean, I don't know, I'm a frustrated want to be punked musician, so I kind of like the idea of working in horror still, like makes you like an outsider in some aspects. But, yeah, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't frustrated at times when I see horror, sort of just like dismissed,

Michael David Wilson 49:26
right? Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 49:28
babes, they treat it like a dirty word. Oh,

Michael David Wilson 49:32
yeah, you've written articles on it. Bob,

Bob Pastorella 49:38
no, I mean, I'm with you 100% on that. It's just, it's, it's got to, it's got to, you know, achieve some type of legitimacy. And it's one of the oldest forms of storytelling. It's just like, it gets kicked to the curb, and it's, it's much bullshit, man. I mean, it really is. No, well, I

Paul Tremblay 49:59
mean. I think a big part of it. I'm not the first person to observe this, certainly not, you know, I think a lot of it does come down to class. I mean, I mean, historically, all the genres haven't been taken seriously by the quote, unquote, you know, serious people, because the serious sort of literary academic work was being done by, you know, upper class people who could afford to go to college and afford, you know, have their parents pay for them to go to college and and once they're in college, they're taught by, you know, people who, you know, they were taught by people who were taught by other people that, you know, genre was pulp. It wasn't to be taken seriously, that this is what serious people study. You know, it takes a long time for that to be taken apart. I mean, it's certainly getting better, but you know, we're certainly not, you know, there are other bigger problems in the world, believe me, but you know, we're definitely not at the place where horror is taken, taken at or horror is still, I think, dismissed in many circles as having something innately inferior to it, or having a horror element means it's dismissed from being seriously looked at kind of thing.

Michael David Wilson 51:12
Exactly, yeah. Which is why so often, if something gets too popular or gets too much recognition, you will see people try and reclassify it. I mean, with even with Shirley Jackson or Franz Kafka, it's like, oh, it's not horror, it's literature. It's like, well, it can be both.

Paul Tremblay 51:38
Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, I

Michael David Wilson 51:40
wonder, is there anything that you've changed your mind about recently? Oh, boy.

Paul Tremblay 51:51
No, I am steadfast in all my opinions. I don't know. Geez, maybe just the ending of dark song. No, yeah, it's a hard question. Nothing really comes to mind. I mean, I don't know. I feel like I try to live with an open mind. I will freely bet, though, that I tend to be, I think, like most people, I would be hard to move off of what my political current political positions would be. I would like to think that I would be open to discussion on some topics, but there are a lot of topics I pretty much I wouldn't be able to be moved off of, geez, in terms of like movies or horror. Sorry, I got, I got nothing for you. I'm just grumpy, middle aged, old person set in his ways,

Michael David Wilson 52:42
right? And I think living with an open mind and in terms of political opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, jumping to another side, as it were, but I guess right, things can become more nuanced or more developed based on the information that comes in. Sure, I think, I think, like you say, living with an open mind, just just knowing that you're prepared to change your mind should some evidence or some new information come in, is a great way to live anyway, right?

Paul Tremblay 53:19
Yeah. Or, if nothing else, if you're not gonna change your mind, I try to, at least more times than not, try to understand why or where the other person is coming from, or why they might hold such an opinion that is, so you know, antithetical to mine kind of thing. Yeah, or, or just troll them on Twitter or something? Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 53:42
I mean, two different approaches depending, right? But I do tend to find that in most cases, I mean, people don't have an opinion based on hate. They don't decide I'm gonna do this because I hate X, Y and Z. I mean, it can be coming from ignorance. It can be very misguided, but maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I like to believe that fundamentally, as humans, we're not built to hate one another, but that's a big conversation, for another day,

Paul Tremblay 54:23
you damn hippie. Michael, yeah. But also, I mean, that's fine. I mean, no, I think I'm definitely with you. But also I find frightening the idea that you know some of these, you know, what I find to be really distasteful, horrific things, political sort of situations and opinions come from, like the idea of, you know, they believe there's doing this for the greater good, or they think, you know, they're doing this. They think they're doing this because it's right. And you know that. Me, you know, that, to me, is scary, the idea that these two, like, sort of very diametrically opposed opinions, and you know, the ones that I hold, you know, especially in regard to, like, you know, some socio political situations, you know, you know, I guess I'll be specific, you know, the idea that you can have, like, a supposedly rational person be so, like, diametrically opposed to gay marriage, just, you know, makes no sense to me, and it's hard to try to understand, like, where, why a person would think that way, or where they're coming from, you Know, and how, like, they'll use, sort of their the person with that opinion is basically using, like, an outside belief system to make their decision for them, you know, believing that their greater good, in this case, is, you know, the religion or the God they happen to, you know, to worship. So, I mean, almost like, circling back to, you know, some of the stuff that I ended up writing about in the cabinet, the end of the world. I mean, that's, it's not, sorry, the person's opinion that's writing to me. I mean, it is, but it's like how that opinion is formed, or, in a case of just, you know, giving themselves over to, like, a group, a groupthink is, you know, how they give away, sort of that thought, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 56:21
And I would argue that a rational person could not be opposed to gay marriage with the definition of rational. And I guess with things like that, it's about questioning the person if you say it's for the greater good. Well, okay, what? What is good? What is the greater good? What do you define as right? And honestly, if it is a rational person, if you continue such a line of questioning, then they would have to concede that there is no rationality to the view that, yeah, I mean it, this isn't really, this is a bit late in the conversation, but you know, like it is, it is dangerous to to decide, and I Think that you said something similar before that you're gonna unquestioningly follow a book or a set of rules and to say, it says, and it says to do this or not to do this in this ancient religious text, therefore I'm going to do it unquestioningly. And you know, I think even if you are religious, which I am not, you still have to have some accountability for your own actions and for your own decisions. And saying, I do this because this is what people of my religious persuasion do is not good enough. Let's let's back it up a little bit more. Let's have some more justification. And if you can't justify it, if you can't be logical about it, if you can't be moral about it, then you know, perhaps you should reevaluate what you're doing, right?

Paul Tremblay 58:21
Well, so now that we've lost a percentage of your listeners, I'm just kidding.

Michael David Wilson 58:30
Well, Bob's gone. I believe that, Bob, I think, I think you identify as Christians, and now I've fucking lost a co host,

Paul Tremblay 58:41
I would hope people, when we discuss things like this, you know, we're certainly not painting No no, all Christians with a broad brush, or even all religious people. Some of my best friends are religious. Yeah, that

Michael David Wilson 58:52
line will work. Paul, we've won him back

with a Christian,

Bob Pastorella 59:03
I don't identify with religions very much, because religions people don't need religions. Religions need people and and so that kind of sets up a whole list of expectations that, to me others don't believe are quite fair. So I'm become, I become more spiritual, you know? And it's just, I don't know. I'll leave it at that, okay?

Paul Tremblay 59:35
And I'll say that John Lang and worships the cacti. Yeah, just out there again, yes,

Michael David Wilson 59:42
yeah, and remember, remember to tweet him about that. I'm literally looking up his Twitter handle, yeah. So remember to tweet him at, Mr. God, that is John langen. Ask him your cacti questions at. Instagram. Well, on that note, where can our listeners connect with you?

Paul Tremblay 1:00:08
So I'm on Twitter at Paul G Tremblay, Instagram, the same sort of handle. You know, I have a Facebook author page as well. It's funny, the G is there because my father has the same first and last name, but different middle initial. So I first started writing, I was like, I want to make sure, you know, I'm not a junior, you know. So I put the G there, you know. Obviously, when I started publishing with the bigger publishers, they were like, just drop the middle initial. It's, you don't need it. But I'd started all these handles already with the G so it's sort of a holdover, a very boring story about my handle. Sorry, that's a great way to end the end the episode.

Michael David Wilson 1:00:54
Yeah, I have no further comment, but thank you for enlightening us for that one. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Tremblay 1:01:03
Also you'll know, you'll never guess my middle name. I'll throw that. That's a little bit more interesting. So

Michael David Wilson 1:01:10
tweet at pooled your guess for his middle name.

Paul Tremblay 1:01:15
Yeah, his

Bob Pastorella 1:01:16
middle name is guess, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:01:22
Now would say that maybe we could do that, and then, if you get it right, you win a copy of the book. You probably don't want loads of people tweeting your middle name.

Paul Tremblay 1:01:33
I'm sure it's out there somewhere. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:01:39
Well, do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to leave our listeners with?

Paul Tremblay 1:01:46
Jeez, no. I mean, I hope thank you for the questions that were asked by the Patreon folks. A lot of those people I've interacted with or met in person, so it was very nice of you guys to ask such thoughtful questions. I'm just sort of in the cabinet the end of the world, sort of mode, you know, it comes out in two weeks. So been busy, you know, doing podcasts and answering questions. So I'm super excited, you know, nervous. I hope people like the book, or maybe like too strong a word. I hope that it works for you, because it is sort of an intense experience. I think whether or not you enjoy it, I guess that's up to you in your personal proclivities. How's that for a pitch? Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:02:30
yeah. I

Bob Pastorella 1:02:32
think they're gonna love it,

Michael David Wilson 1:02:34
man. I think I think so too. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us. I'm sure that we'll talk you again in a year or in two years, and then you can cement your place. Yes. Number one podcast, yes. Most appearances I want to

Paul Tremblay 1:02:55
keep an eye on that Richard Thomas and Stephen Graham Jones, fellas, make sure that they don't get too far ahead of me.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:01
Yeah, so if you see that we're calling for questions for either Steve and Graham Jones or Richard Thomas, I guess you've got to, like, hack into their computer make the Skype call not happen. And yeah, I mean, you said you like to be competitive. You didn't say you like to play fair. This is true, to do what you've got to do. That's right.

Thank you so much for listening to the this is horror podcast. Do join us again next time when we will be chatting with CV hunt, of course, if you want to get that ahead of the crowd, you know what to do. Become our Patreon over on www.patreon.com forward slash, this is horror, and we're really trying to hit 125 patrons at the moment, when we do, we will be supporting another creator over on Patreon, and we'd love it if you could help us with that. We've got a lot of conversations lined up. We're trying to increase the frequency of the this is horror podcast, to twice per week. Now we're not quite there yet, which is mostly my fault, because I'm just getting to grips with being a stay at home dad, so a little less time than I'm used to having, but rest assured, by September, if not August, we will be putting out two episodes every week of this is horror, and if you think what we're doing is worth paying for, if it is giving you value, do consider becoming our patron over@www.patreon.com forward slash. This is horror. A lot of perks, a lot of bonuses. So check them out now. With that said, let's have a word from our sponsors. I.

Bob Pastorella 1:04:59
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PMMP 1:05:27
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Michael David Wilson 1:05:58
As always, I would like to finish with a quote, and this is from Anne Lamott, perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor, the enemy of the people. It will keep you cramped and insane your whole life. I'll see you in the next episode, but until then, look after yourself. Be good to one another. Read horror and have a great, great day.