Michael David Wilson 0:10
Welcome to This is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm your host, Michael David Wilson, and today I'm joined, as always, by my co host, Bob pastorella, how are you today? Bob,

Bob Pastorella 0:28
I'm doing great. Michael, how are you doing?

Michael David Wilson 0:30
I'm all right. We just recently got off the call with Charlene Harris, perhaps most famous for the Sookie Stackhouse series, which was adapted into HBO True Blood. So we had a really fascinating conversation. We spoke about growing up, we spoke about early life lessons, we spoke about writing and a lot more.

Bob Pastorella 1:00
Oh, yeah, we get into a lot of ground. It's, it's not a very long conversation compared to what we normally do, but there's a lot of ground that's covered here, and it was just a joy talking with, you know, such a, a, you know, well known, established professional, working writer. It's, I think people are really, really going to enjoy it.

Michael David Wilson 1:20
Oh, yeah, a very wonderful human being who was incredibly generous with her time and knowledge definitely well. Before we get in to the conversation, let us have a quick word from our sponsors,

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Michael David Wilson 2:37
All right, and we're back, and I believe Bob that you have Charlaine. Bio,

Bob Pastorella 2:43
yes, it is. Charlayne Harris is an American New York Times bestselling author who has been writing mysteries for 30 years. She was born and raised in the Mississippi River Delta area of the United States. Charlene is the author of the Gunny rose series, as well as the midnight Texas and Sookie Stackhouse series, both made for television. The later as the iconic HBO series, True Blood. She now lives in southern Arkansas with her husband and her children. And that is Charlene Harris.

Michael David Wilson 3:14
Yes, it is. Well, I mean, let's not delay. Let's just do it. So here it is. It is our conversation with Charlayne Harris,

Charlene, welcome to this is horror.

Charlaine Harris 3:36
Well, thank you for inviting me. I never really think of myself as a horror writer, so I'm really thrilled when other people think I could edge in there.

Michael David Wilson 3:45
Oh yeah, you are most certainly welcome. And I think to begin with, if we could talk about some of the early life lessons that you learned growing up, so there's gonna be any life lesson. This isn't restricted to writing.

Charlaine Harris 4:02
Oh, that's good. Life lessons. Well, I grew up in an utterly flat area, the Mississippi Delta, so early on, I got the concept that God could see you no matter where you were. And I have always remembered that because there was nowhere to hide it. It was flat. I mean, it's flat and it's almost all farmland, so most of the trees are down naturally. Um, it gave me a different perspective. I felt very small in a huge universe, always, and that has really been good for me, especially when things started to go really well for me, it was good to keep my head not inflated by remembering that I was a very small piece of the entire picture.

Michael David Wilson 4:57
Yeah, and that's really interesting, because. I think often we're told to just remember that we're such a tiny speck in terms of the whole cosmos. But for you to literally have that visual interpretation while growing up, must have really put things into perspective.

Charlaine Harris 5:16
You know, it did, maybe not at the time, but as I grew up, I began to see that as a pretty valuable lesson.

Michael David Wilson 5:26
Yeah, and in terms of story, what was some of your first experiences there?

Charlaine Harris 5:35
Well, people seem to think in the south, we gather around the fire at night and tell each other ghost stories. That was not true in my family. I my dad was a farmer, and he worked hard when he came home, he just wanted to read. I was very fortunate to come from a reading family, and that was the best example I think my parents could have set for me that they thought reading was the most valuable pastime anyone could have, and therefore I considered it was the best pastime anyone could have. And so I read a lot, just a lot. And I think it was, you know, really a good thing to be exposed to so many different kinds of writers, so young and to become a really rapid reader.

Michael David Wilson 6:27
Yeah. How many books do you think you were getting through in, let's say, a typical week?

Charlaine Harris 6:35
Oh, five. Maybe.

Michael David Wilson 6:36
Wow. It's pretty rapid. And you said that you're exposed to many writers, so I mean, let's have a look at the variety and some of the authors who are some of the writers, and what are some of the stories that stand out from those formative years?

Charlaine Harris 6:55
Well, I read Jane Eyre very early, and it made a deep impression on me. I also read all of Jane Austen. I read a lot of ex Ferrers, a lot of Dale Shannon. Those are not as famous mystery writers as they were then, but that was a good example. I read a lot of John D McDonald. I read a lot of Ed McBain and Mary Stewart, so I was just absorbing mystery and suspense in big doses.

Bob Pastorella 7:35
Yeah, and those are, like, three the big names, you know, coming up. I remember, you know, when I started reading, someone told me I needed to read John D McDonald, and when, as soon as I read the first one, I was like, wow, this is, this is how it's done.

Charlaine Harris 7:49
Yes, there was so much to learn from him. Still is.

Bob Pastorella 7:56
Oh yeah, it's like a ongoing course,

Charlaine Harris 8:01
exactly, Ross McDonald, also,

Bob Pastorella 8:05
yes, yes, I'm familiar a little bit with his work. Uh, probably need to dive into that a little deeper.

Charlaine Harris 8:11
Well, I think he, he bears up pretty well,

Michael David Wilson 8:15
yeah. So I mean, from there, when did you decide to start writing. And my understanding, if I've done my research properly, is that your early work was more concerned with poems about ghosts, and then after ghosts, it was concerned with teenage angst. So I'd love to

Charlaine Harris 8:38
lurid. Well, I always wanted to believe in the supernatural, and it seemed like it was an easy thing to write about beings that didn't exist right in front of you, which was, you know, not true, but that was the way I saw it. And of course, I went through the usual teenage period, which everyone wants to forget, when all I could write about was myself and my own problems. As I grew older, I realized I wanted to write mysteries, because that was what my parents read, and that was what I read, and I thought, oh, it would be great to be a mystery writer. All I ever wanted to be was a writer. So my first book was a mystery. That was when I was in my late 20s, right?

Michael David Wilson 9:29
Is that sweet and deadly that was published in 1981

Charlaine Harris 9:35
yes, that terrible title. But I thought the book was very brief, but pretty good. And, you know, the publisher took it. It was my first book. I felt pretty good about that.

Michael David Wilson 9:49
Yeah, if you didn't like the title, is that why in the UK, it was rebranded as dead dog?

Charlaine Harris 9:59
Yes. But that was the original title. But it turned out in publishing then a dead dog was a book you couldn't sell at any price. They wanted to change the title.

Michael David Wilson 10:13
Yeah, obviously the UK didn't have as many qualms about whacking dead targets a title. What do you think you learned from that publishing experience, both the good and the bad, apart from, don't title your novel sweet and deadly?

Charlaine Harris 10:33
What did I learn? Um, I learned that I had enough talent to succeed, and that was, you know, pretty powerful affirmation. I also felt that if I kept on working, things would go well for me, and frankly, and this is where a certain amount of self willed blindness comes in. I never anticipated that things wouldn't go well for me. I, you know, I felt pretty set on the road, and I felt like I was at the beginning of a career. I had no idea where that career would lead me. Obviously, it's gone into some very strange and stratospheric places, but I thought I was on on the start and I couldn't foresee any of the many obstacles that would be thrown in my path.

Michael David Wilson 11:28
Yeah, I mean, what you're saying, it reminds me a lot of Richard chishma, what he was saying when we spoke with him a few weeks ago, and he didn't have a plan B. He was just going to knuckle down, get the work done, and well, decades later, it's gone okay for him, as it has for you,

Charlaine Harris 11:47
right? I didn't have a master plan. I had no idea what could happen. I just wanted to keep on writing and to keep on being published.

Michael David Wilson 11:58
And you said, I mean, as is the case with all obstacles, there was a lot that you couldn't foresee. I mean, hey, if we could foresee them, they wouldn't be obstacles,

Charlaine Harris 12:12
obstacles and great stuff. Yeah, you know who could have foreseen that people would be interested in a telepathic barmaid, right, right, especially all over the world. I'm going what speaks to you southern books in Louisiana. How come people are so interested? But of course, I had to be glad about that, because I was writing about universal problems in my own opinion.

Michael David Wilson 12:40
Oh, yeah, definitely. And I spent a few years living in Japan, and the silky Stackhouse was one of the books that you would see on those shelves that have been translated and also in the English language section. So I mean, it was typically your work. And then Anne Rice and Stephen King were the ones that I felt were most frequently there in the bookshelves and indeed, in the library as well.

Charlaine Harris 13:10
Yay for that.

Michael David Wilson 13:12
Yeah, exactly. But I mean, I wonder what were some of the obstacles and what was perhaps the most major obstacle that you faced, and how did you navigate through or around it?

Charlaine Harris 13:29
Well, I got cut a couple of times when my sales weren't good early on in my career, and, in fact, later on in my career, and I just had to not worry about it. I just, I don't know, maybe this is just hubris, but I had this absolute conviction that everything was going to be all right. Maybe it's because I've got a really good agent, but I kept thinking, you know, everything will be okay. I'll find another publisher. Everything will go on. And I really never worried about it, which was very, very helpful. And

Michael David Wilson 14:06
speaking of an agent, how many agents have you had in your career? And how did you decide which agent to go with?

Charlaine Harris 14:17
I've only had one agent my entire career. He will be my agent until I die, Joshua bills, who at that point, had just broken off with Scott Meredith agency. He was with Scott Meredith for my first book. And then the agency had a management change, and they fired everybody who had worked there, including Joshua, who took out on his own, and for a while it was just him working out of his apartment, but I had shaken hands with him, and that was an obligation, and he had never done anything but good for me, so I decided to stick. With the man I knew, and we've only ever had each other. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 15:04
I mean, you don't get a much better endorsement than that. I mean, one agent entire career, and as you say, the places that it has taken you,

Charlaine Harris 15:15
he always had faith in me, no matter how bad my sales were, and I've always had faith in him that he would if I were troubled by something, he would find out all the facts of it. He would find out why it was happening, and he would correct it if it was possible. He always has thought for me in any dispute between me and my publisher, and now he has his own agency, and he has minions, yeah, so it worked out good for him too, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 15:50
And for any writers who are listening, who are just starting out, do you have any tips in terms of landing a good agent? And I suppose, as well as what to look for, perhaps what not to look for, or what might be perceived as a red flag,

Charlaine Harris 16:10
it's a red flag if your agent doesn't answer your communications within 48 hours. And I just think that is a red flag. I know agents are busy, I know they have other clients, but your agent should care enough about you to respond within two days to a query you might have. I think that is reasonable, unless he's sick or, you know. I mean, I know things happen, but that, I think that's reasonable. I also think your agent should encourage you in whatever path you want to take. He should be on your side in any dispute between you and your publisher, and he should be alert to whatever your publisher is doing that does not promote your books in the most effective way. Your agent doesn't have to be your best friend, yeah, but he has to be your best advocate, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 17:09
yeah, that's really good advice. Well, I know that a lot of people will want to hear about the silky Stackhouse series. So this was the third series that you'd embarked on, and I wonder what is the origin story here? When did you first know that you were going to write about Sookie?

Charlaine Harris 17:33
I had reached kind of a stagnant point in my career. My sales weren't falling, but they weren't going up either. I was firmly stuck in the mid list, and I guess I'm ambitious enough to want to go further, because I felt like I had something to say. I really wanted the chance to say it. Laurel K Hamilton had made a big impression on me. She had just gotten popular, and I thought, well, you know, she's crossing genres. They had always told me I couldn't do that, not they, but not my agent, though he was a little dubious, but it booksellers had always say, oh, no, we have to know where to where to put your book. It has to be in the mystery section or the science fiction section of the horror section. And I thought, what if it fitted in all three? It seemed to me, in my really rudimentary thinking that that would triple my sales.

Looking back at it now that seems a little bit naive, but I thought I was tired of the rules of mystery. I love writing mysteries, and I still write them every now and then, but I didn't really want to stick to the rules anymore. And I thought, you know, would just be so much fun if I could appeal to a wider audience, and yet tell the story I want to tell. So that was the the very basic thinking behind formulating that series. I had to come up with Suki first, and that took quite a bit of thinking, and then I had to kind of build her world around her, but it all evolved from that.

Michael David Wilson 19:25
Yeah, and I imagine not only did you pick up some readers from all three of the genres that you mentioned, mystery, SF and horror, but I would imagine there was quite an appeal from the romance crowd as well,

Charlaine Harris 19:40
yes, which I had not anticipated, because I've never considered myself a romance writer. Things never always turn out well in my books and in most romances, things do turn out well, or at least better. I. Yeah, I haven't. I read romance every now and then. It's not my steady diet, but I really enjoy a good romance. But that was not my goal setting out, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 20:13
and so when you found yourself in that crowd, in that, I guess, ascetic and having that appeal, what kind of changes, if any, did you know occurred for you as a writer or in terms of how you were marketed?

Charlaine Harris 20:37
I never really paid that much attention to how I was marketed, as long as I sold and my books were selling super well. What I didn't realize and should have seen coming was that well I thought, but it was too late, was that romance readers would have a definite expectation as to the ending of the books, and that was not where I was going. And I thought, oh, no, some people are really going to be unhappy. That was, you know, a that was, that was just understating it tremendously.

Michael David Wilson 21:17
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was listening to a few other interviews that you've done, and I think it was in the geeks Guide to the Galaxy, one from about six years ago, in fact, now, where you were saying that you had people either writing to you or writing on forums and saying things like, Look, if Eric doesn't end up with silky I'm going to kill myself. What? How

Charlaine Harris 21:44
can I be responsible for that? I thought, Honey, get alive. And that's oversimplifying too, because I see that they were super invested in the story I'd written. But my responsibility, as I see it, is to tell the best story I can as honestly as I can, and that was what I was doing. I felt like I gave big directional arrows as to how the series was going to end, especially in the last two books, because I could tell what was going to happen by then. And I thought, Look, I'm being really honest here. I'm going, this is the way it's going to end. This is the way it's going to end. It's not going to end the way you think. But still, it was overwhelmingly horrible. I learned a lot about the anonymous public, and none of it was pleasant, right? Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 22:47
fandom is the best and worst of things. It really

Charlaine Harris 22:52
is. I was so grateful for the ones who said, you know, this was your right. I disagree with it, but it was, you're right. And I thought Damn straight, but the overwhelming majority were so they were angry with me. Now I think this is like 2% of my readers. They were just very vocal, yeah, and you begin to think, does everybody hate me? And they would say things like, I'm gonna burn your book. I thought, well, as long as you pay for it first. Okay, I just, I just didn't really expect how unpleasant it would be or how bad it would make me feel.

Bob Pastorella 23:37
Yeah, it sounds like 2% of that population was like the Annie Wilkes of the world, exactly,

Charlaine Harris 23:43
exactly. I could only hope that Annie Wilkes didn't know where I lived.

Unknown Speaker 23:49
Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 23:52
That would have been bad.

Charlaine Harris 23:55
It would have been very bad.

Michael David Wilson 23:58
Yeah. I mean, I think we see this with a number of big franchises and series. I mean, the ones that come to mind are Star Wars and Game of Thrones, and also, recently, Doctor Who where the fans feel that they have some ownership. So then they feel an entitlement to almost participate in the storytelling. Gwen, you know, as a reader, that wasn't part of the contract you're reading the story, the writer is the one writing it. You

Charlaine Harris 24:31
know, amazingly, several people said, No, you wrote that all wrong. And I thought, Okay, let me look at this and think, if I'm in reality, it was my book I originated all the characters, they're alive in my head and nowhere else. And that's where I think the TV show played a big part the. Fact that people got really invested in the characters as they were on the screen, and they felt like it was a personal affront. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 25:10
I could almost imagine some taking it so far that they watched the TV show, and then they read your book that was obviously written before, and then they're like, wait, the book got it wrong. That didn't happen in the TV show.

Charlaine Harris 25:25
Yeah? People would say, Oh, I'm so confused. Yes. And I thought, Okay, I did not write the TV show, yeah? And you have to separate the two, because the narrative is not going to be the same,

Michael David Wilson 25:41
yeah. I mean, I think if they're confused, you kind of need to explain what an adaptation is, and it's like, Look, if you think that was confusing, don't even read the shining and then watch Kubrick's film, because it's going to blow your mind.

Charlaine Harris 25:58
Both good, yeah, in different way? Yeah, yeah. It's been that way with all my adaptations, the Hallmark ones of my mysteries, my Aurora two garden mysteries, the NBC ones and midnight Texas, now sadly not renewed, that people have said, But Wayne, I'm so confused. And I thought, okay, you gotta separate it in your head, yeah, and, and that will be the only way you can. Don't read them concurrently. It won't work out,

Michael David Wilson 26:33
right, right? Yeah, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 26:35
I think a lot of people get really kind of because of the order that they experience something. It's like, if you, if you like, you see, like a show on TV, and you watch it, and you discovered that it's adapted from something written that that that's going to kind of pepper your experience with the written when you do, when you do, get around reading it. And I think for some people, they they, they don't have a disconnect, you know? And since they experienced the TV show first, and you're talking about something that may have been written, I mean, like, 15 years ago, and then they read it, they're like, Oh, this isn't right. This isn't right. No, it's, it's like, you have to, you got to kind of have a disconnect to realize it's two separate entities. I

Charlaine Harris 27:25
think you're absolutely right, and I was naive not to realize that a lot of people did not have that disconnect.

Bob Pastorella 27:35
Yeah, I mean, it was like, just even like listening to Carmen McCarthy talk about the road, and people say, How do you feel about people adapting your book? And he goes, or changing your book, he goes, the books right there on shelf. You can get it anytime you want.

Charlaine Harris 27:47
I know, I've had a lot of viewers say, how can you stand them messing up your books that way? And I'm going, you know, they're they're really not. My books are just fine. Nothing's changed inside my books. If you don't like the TV show, just don't watch it. Yeah, you know, that's a that's an easy thing to do, right?

Bob Pastorella 28:11
It's, it's easy thing for to do, but I think in today's society, a lot of people will continue to watch it, just so I can have something to pitch about.

Charlaine Harris 28:21
Oh, I don't even want to confirm that, though I fear it might be true.

Michael David Wilson 28:28
Yeah, I've heard a number of writers say that if they get a film or a television adaptation, it's a win win, because if they watch it and they think this is good, they can say, well, of course it was good. It was based on my book. And then if it's bad, they can say, Well, I mean, you know, it didn't really follow the book. And you can read that instead, you

Charlaine Harris 28:49
know, I think it's a win, win. And truthfully, I do all this because it brings attention to the books. Yeah, that's my that's my goal. In agreeing to all these I know the end result is not going to be like the books, because I didn't write the books like an hour long TV show. No, you know it's it's beyond my responsibility. Then I don't want to write for television. I'm busy enough writing what I write, and I think it's great when novel writers want to branch into TV and try to make it part of their contract with the with the network or the or whoever is is doing their show. But that's just not one of my aspirations. I have other aspirations, but that's not one of them.

Michael David Wilson 29:47
Yeah, and I imagine when you found out that the silky Stackhouse series was going to be adapted by Alan bull as a fan of six feet under you must have. Fairly excited at that point.

Charlaine Harris 30:02
Oh, extremely excited Alan Ball,

Michael David Wilson 30:06
right?

Charlaine Harris 30:07
You know, Alan Ball, that was pretty exciting. I had offers from two other companies at the same time, which was, you know, a wonderful position to be in. But boy, Allen ball, you know, that's and he's such a nice guy. Just just really nice and everyone, what impressed me was that everyone who worked for him was so glad to be working for him. He was polite to them. And that is not the norm anywhere in Hollywood. And every interview he gave, he would say, and of course, these are from the wonderful books by Charlene Harris. And I thought, now he doesn't have to do that, and that is him being a gentleman. So I was a big fan of his from seeing his work and from observing his behavior, and I thought he did just a wonderful, fearless job with the first few seasons of the show.

Michael David Wilson 31:15
Oh yeah, it's tremendous to hear that he's such a good person in real life as well, because this is why people say, like, you've got to be careful about meeting your heroes or finding out too much about them, because you don't want to be disappointed. Oh

Charlaine Harris 31:33
no, you don't. I've met writers that I was I really revered. I love their stuff, and from time to time I've been bitterly disappointed they were assholes, right? But then I'll meet someone that I was really terrified of meeting, like Ann rice, charming, you know, great company and the most thoughtful person, and you just say this is even better than I ever imagined. This is so great.

Michael David Wilson 32:08
Yeah. Why do you think you are apprehensive to me? Anne Rice, do you think it's just because of, like, the significance and the influence that she's had on the entire vampire mythology.

Charlaine Harris 32:24
Oh, absolutely. And you know, whatever you may think of the rest of her body of work, which I happen to admire, Interview with the Vampire was startlingly original. It was blindingly original, and it was a great book. And I thought, you know, she just revolutionized everything in horror. And I thought that was just the most amazing book. I go back and read it from time to time. I just have to give her high points for thinking so far outside the box, she invented a new genre.

Michael David Wilson 33:05
Oh yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it stands up very well today. It is, in effect, a timeless book. And I mean, not only did she reinvent the vampire, but the whole format in which the story was told

Charlaine Harris 33:22
she did. And I just honestly, you know, even if she had never written anything else, she would be a hero of mine, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 33:32
oh, yeah. And one thing that I've noticed with Anne Rice is, I mean, she seems to be very generous with her time. I mean, almost ever since the internet was even a thing, she's been blogging and had a website and been very approachable for readers and to just offer advice and wisdom when it comes to the craft, and also in terms of encouraging writers, you know, saying, don't give up and to persist and to put in the work.

Charlaine Harris 34:06
That's absolutely true. She is very generous with her time.

Michael David Wilson 34:11
Well, we've got a number of questions from our Patreon, and as we are talking about Anne Rice, the first one from Alan smulling, what influence if any, did Anne Rice have on your development of the vampire mythology and society that you present in Your novels?

Charlaine Harris 34:38
I think that Anne had a tremendous influence in some ways. Obviously, the society I built around my vampires is very different from hers, but the idea of introducing vampires into our day to day life, of course. And rice and Laurel Hamilton both had that idea and and the way they have done it, while completely different from each other, both influenced me quite a bit.

Michael David Wilson 35:13
Yeah, and Tracy Kenworth would like to know in terms of the silky Stackhouse series, did you know where each book was leading? Did you have an outline, or did you just tackle book after book individually? And of course, we know from what you said in terms of the ending that you knew you know at least a few books behind how it was going to end. I think I might have heard you say in a previous conversation that you knew how it was going to end from the start. I

Charlaine Harris 35:49
did know how it was going to end from the start, but everything in between the first book and the last book was improvisation.

Bob Pastorella 35:59
That's the fun. It's the journey in getting there, it

Charlaine Harris 36:02
is. That was the fun part. I love writers who plan, and I think that's so good for them, but that is just not the way I work. I tried it and it didn't, it didn't resonate with me.

Michael David Wilson 36:18
So on that note, does that mean when you start out with a new story, that it really is what we sometimes terms pantsing, and you know, you know how it's gonna start, but what happens after that is a little bit of a blur.

Charlaine Harris 36:36
That's exactly I'm an extreme pantser. I never know what's going to happen from day to day. You know, I turn on my computer and call up my file and go, Where are we going? Because to me, that's the fun of it. That's what keeps me entertained. And if I'm bored, the writing is not going to be any good,

Michael David Wilson 36:58
right? Yeah. I mean, I think that's important. I find if I'm writing something if, if me as the writer, if I start getting bored, it's like, Well, God, if I'm bored, the reader is gonna be something else, exactly.

Charlaine Harris 37:12
You've gotta surprise yourself all the time if you're gonna surprise the reader,

Michael David Wilson 37:18
yeah, I think it was Elmore Leonard who says he tends to not write the boring bits or he skips the bits that readers skip. But I think that's a generally good rule of thumb. Yeah, I

Charlaine Harris 37:33
got to meet him one time, and it was just so thrilling to talk to him. I'm such a fan girl of so many people, and that makes being a writer even more fun, because I get to meet people that I just Revere. It, the excitement just never fails.

Michael David Wilson 37:53
Yeah, yeah. So what were the circumstances in which you met Elmore Leonard,

Charlaine Harris 38:03
golly, let's see we were in, Jennifer, I want to say at about your con. It was a long time ago, and we were on a balcony now, while I remember that, I don't know, but I started talking to him, and we were having the most wonderful conversation, and then this guy, really don't care for it all came up and interrupted us to Well, I won't even go into that, but I have disliked that person intensely ever such a good time.

Michael David Wilson 38:44
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you better have a good reason if you're gonna fuck with someone you know, talking to Elmore Leonard for goodness sake, that's

Charlaine Harris 38:54
the way I felt. I thought, This is my moment. Okay, I may never see Elmore Leonard again, and as it turned out, I didn't he passed away, but I thought, you know, please, let me have this just, you know, three more minutes. Come on. Let me have it. But no, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 39:13
well, I'm sorry to hear that, but at least you have, you know, a wonderful memory to cherish

Charlaine Harris 39:22
my few moments on the balcony. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 39:26
Well. Lisa Quigley, via Patreon, says there is so much to love about your work. But one thing stands out to me, you write phenomenal sex scenes. The best part is how seamlessly these are woven into the narrative. They are sexy without feeling gratuitous. So I have to ask, Do you have any tips for writing great sex scenes? Ta.

Charlaine Harris 40:00
Ha, act them all out. No, I think really, if you identify what's exciting to you, you can convey that to the reader. If something gives you that tug below the navel, it's going to do the same thing to at least a certain proportion of your readers. I never want to stick sex scenes in there just to have one, because I'm not a sex writer. But if I'm going to have a sex scene and it's part of the story, I want it to be good. I want to write mediocre sex there's plenty of that. I want it to be something that genuinely pulls it, not only things below your waist, but pulls at your head and draws you into the moment.

Michael David Wilson 40:52
Yeah, I love that advice. And I think really, I mean what you said could be applicable to eliciting so many emotions. I mean, with a sex scene, you want to do something that's exciting to you, but if you want to scare the reader, why don't you scare yourself? If you want to, you know, make him sad, then do something that you would find sad too. So, yeah,

Charlaine Harris 41:18
looking for the emotion, not for the mechanics,

Michael David Wilson 41:21
right? Yeah. And as you say, I mean, there are enough mediocre sex or awful sex scenes out there. I mean, there's the whole bad sex awards that I think Stephen King is usually up for every few years. Well, Robert S Wilson, would like to know if you could collaborate with any author that has ever lived. Who would it be, and why that author, and what would you want to write?

Charlaine Harris 41:58
Oh, my God, I've collaborated a couple of times, well, three times, once with Chris golden, who is a good friend of mine, once with Rachel Kane, who is another good friend of mine, and once with a thriller writer for The thriller biannual. Biannual means every two years, right? Right? Or does it mean, okay, their biannual anthology. And those were all fun, some of some of it felt a little weird. Rachel Kane is so much faster a writer than I am that I wrote her and said, Would you like to collaborate with me on this story? It was like asking somebody on a date. It was very uncomfortable. And, you know, honestly, she sent back the first draft. Oh, okay, I guess this is a yes. If I could collaborate with anybody, I've collaborated as an editor with my dear friend Tony Kellner, and that worked out super we think alike. Who would I

PMMP 43:12
collaborate

Charlaine Harris 43:15
with? I keep rejecting names on one basis or another. I probably collaborate with Christopher golden again in a minute, because he was just super generous and patient about teaching me how to write a graphic novel that was very interesting. Oh, Jodi Taylor, that's who I'd collaborate with. Have you ever read Jodi Taylor?

Michael David Wilson 43:38
I'm afraid I haven't, but I'm gonna have a

Bob Pastorella 43:41
familiar,

Charlaine Harris 43:42
oh yeah. Start with the first book in her St Mary's series. It's called just one damn thing after another. Well,

Bob Pastorella 43:51
with a title like that, I need to read that book. Yeah,

Charlaine Harris 43:55
it's such a good book. All of her books are really, really good. I just admire the hell out of her.

Michael David Wilson 44:03
Yeah, well, I mean, say no more. I'm gonna be picking that up as soon as we finish this conversation and great title, and looking forward to digging into it good. And by the way, you were asking about biannual and I know that if I don't announce this correction, that someone will write in, so I'm actually wrong. It's not every two years. It does mean twice a year, and every two years is Biennial. So there you go. People can't write in corrected. The

Charlaine Harris 44:42
minute I said by annual, I thought, Oh, I bet that's wrong. So thank you, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 44:46
well, I mean, I agreed with you. I don't, yeah, that sounds about right, biannual. But no, in fact, it was not. Well, here's an interesting question from Ryan. And Whitley, what do you think horror's particular places in the contemporary literature and political landscape?

Charlaine Harris 45:13
Oh, my goodness, I'm gonna have to get deep. Um, well, it's place is obvious in the political landscape. We're kind of living through a horror novel. Now, I think that there's a need for horror because I think it's a it purges you. I think that you get your your fear and your trembling done, and you face things that you don't want to face, but at a safe distance. So hopefully that makes it simplifies your emotions and makes you calmer. You know, that's my armchair psychiatrist theory. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 45:57
I think it makes a lot of sense. And I mean, sometimes I wonder, like, you know, we write and we read horror so that we can almost live out those darker times without actually being the people committing these acts. I guess it's almost a kind of vicarious thing.

Charlaine Harris 46:18
Oh, it's and Mystery Writers too, I think because if you kill enough people on the page, you're not nearly as likely to do it in person. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 46:30
there was something I can't remember, if this was from a podcast that I listened to, or if it was a true crime documentary, but there was this mystery writer who had written an article about how she would kill her husband if she had to. He's

Charlaine Harris 46:51
accused of it. So in my point of view, she's the least successful writer ever because she didn't cover her tracks at all, if, in fact, they find her guilty. And also, this is just not a subtle way to conduct a murder, right?

Michael David Wilson 47:11
Yeah. And I mean, as you said, before you know, you write about, you wrote about your own problems and issues, and it was more like kind of centered towards yourself when you were going through that kind of teenage angst, you know, period, at least, if you're gonna look at killing your husband, maybe put it in like a supernatural context, or something that's hidden a Little bit. Oh

Charlaine Harris 47:40
yeah, you I think you could cover your tracks much, much better, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 47:47
Well, the final Patreon question is another from Alan smulling, and we did talk about this a little bit before, but just for completeness, I will read it. What are your feelings about the HBO True Blood series, and do you feel that it has helped develop your storytelling, or has it been constrictive to your creative process? I suppose the third option, which Alan didn't name is that it has had no effect on your storytelling or creativity. I

Charlaine Harris 48:26
don't think it's had any effect on it. The TV writers were doing their own version of my story more or less while I was writing my actual story. And I just every now and then they would do something I really liked, and I thought, Oh, I wish I had thought of that. But of course, I've always got to like my own story better. That's just natural. And most often I was, I was ahead of them by several years. That was a real help. Yeah, if I had written the first Sookie book the year Alan started the show, I might have been much more influenced. But as it was, I was like, three or four years ahead of him by the time the show started, and I was committed to my own storylines, so I really don't think the show affected me much at all.

Michael David Wilson 49:30
Yeah, I imagine if you'd only had one book out and they were running alongside each other, it could almost be a hindrance to your own writing, especially because you'd probably have even more of that pressure from readers, not that I expect you take any notice of it, but you'd have people asking you to do certain things even more.

Charlaine Harris 49:52
Yes, I agree. So I think I was very fortunate that my first experience. Was, was that way that the show came quite a bit behind the first book.

Michael David Wilson 50:06
Now, you mentioned earlier that the midnight Texas series has recently wrapped up on NBC, but my understanding is that universally shopping it round for a new home at the moment. Is there anything that you can tell us about, that, anything you know about that?

Charlaine Harris 50:28
There is nothing I know about it and but I you know, they don't really keep me in the loop. But I hope that happens, because it was a wonderful show. I really backed it to the hilt. I love the actors, I love the set, I loved the writing. I just thought it was great. And I was really disappointed in the fact that NBC waited so long to renew it the first time, and move the time slot, and then, you know, it had such an abbreviated second season. I really hope it finds a home somewhere else. Very much.

Michael David Wilson 51:15
Yeah. I mean, there's too many good TV series that are being canceled whilst we see so many terrible reality television shows being renewed and reimagined. I mean, another couple of particular saw points within the genre, the cancelation of hap and Leonard and of Hannibal.

Charlaine Harris 51:41
Yes, and I agree that both of those were bad decisions, right? It's

Bob Pastorella 51:47
like NBC. They they want it. They want to be daring. They want to try out new things. And it's like prime example you had, you know, your series, Hannibal and then Constantine, which could have been great. It was just getting its its start, you know, just really kind of moving along, and then they, they cancel. It's like they, they dare to be different, but yet they get a little conservative with it later. And they're like, Ah, we're afraid of it now,

Charlaine Harris 52:18
you know, without knowing their inner machinations or financial considerations, I have to agree with that. Now there's a lot I don't know about the situation, but, you know, I have to think that the show should have stayed because it didn't really have a chance to get traction, right?

Michael David Wilson 52:43
Or something that I noticed in one of your biographies, that I know would be quite interesting to dig into, is apparently you are a former weightlifter and karate student, so let's talk about that.

Charlaine Harris 53:01
Well, if you could see me now, you would never believe it, but it's quite true, I was a serious, at least for me, weightlifter, and I took Goju karate for six years. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 53:13
so at what point in your life was that? And I wonder, what if any lessons from either of those disciplines were transferable to your writing?

Charlaine Harris 53:27
Hmm, well, I never was very good at either one, but I tried, very sincerely because it satisfied a part of me that wanted to be able to defend myself. And at the time I needed to, I felt like I needed to be able to defend myself and my children, the world is a scary place sometimes, and it seemed to me that if my teacher was willing to accept somebody weak, and you know very much past my youth, at that point that I should give it a good try, and the fellowship in that class was just amazing. My sensei has since died of a kidney disease, but he was an amazing person, and we had a wonderful time in the class, no matter how bad I was. He welcomed me every week, and we had a very I learned a lot about myself in that class, and also weightlifting, because it's only you and the weight. Can you do it? Can you not that it's really simple,

Michael David Wilson 54:34
right? Yeah. And I think with, like, a lot of disciplines where it is a solo activity, that mindset, that it's you, and the weight is key. And I've found that where people often go wrong. And in fact, you can do the same with writing, as when you take a solo pursuit and then you start comparing, let's say. How much you're writing or how much you're lifting with other people, and it's like, well, you're not that other person. You don't have the experience that they have or don't have. So it's just futile. Or the question is, are you getting better? Are you developing?

Charlaine Harris 55:16
Are you happy with what you're doing? And

Michael David Wilson 55:18
are you happy? That is a good one. I

Charlaine Harris 55:20
agree. When I look at some writers like, oh, Jonathan Mabry, yeah, and Rachel Kane, who I mentioned before, and many other writers, Chris golden included, who write so much more a year than ever do I just, I just, I can't, I just can't grok it. I thought, how can you do that? Because that's what they do all day, every day. And I do what I do maybe half a day every day. I have children, I have grandchildren, I have two dogs, and I'm married, and I just, I have a life, and I just enjoy that part of of my existence, also maybe too much to ever write, you know, constantly, eight hours a Day, right?

Michael David Wilson 56:17
Yeah. And in terms of collaborating with Christopher golden on Cemetery girl, what was that experience like? I mean, specifically in terms of crafting the story, because, as you said, typically, you're a pantser, but I imagine collaborating and on a graphic novel that might have had to change a little bit.

Charlaine Harris 56:45
It did, because we had to know where we were going to get there in a timely manner. You can't just futz around in a graphic novel. You have to know, and I had to learn so much about it. Chris was so nice to teach me that you you have to write what the reader can see. You can't write dialog that they can't see happening. You can't write movement because the movement's going to be shown. That's not a dialog thing. Yeah, yeah. So it was, it all boiled down to the dialog, and that was, that was a big learning curve for me. Finally, Chris just got a little aggravated with me, and he said, You can't write what they can't see, right, right? And I thought, Okay, that's a lot of negatives, but I understand finally, yeah, and everything went went much more smoothly after that.

Michael David Wilson 57:56
Yeah, I think sometimes to really understand something. It just needs to be put in the most simplest terms. And it's like, okay, that is easy to understand. You can't write what they can't see. It

Charlaine Harris 58:12
just worked. It just clicked with me, and I was so grateful to him. We've been friends a long time,

Michael David Wilson 58:20
yeah, and I mean, if you were to collaborate on something else with him, do you think you'd fancy giving a novel, go with a novel, a go with Christopher golden? Or do you think it would be another graphic novel?

Charlaine Harris 58:38
You know, we kind of got a little burned down cemetery girl, it wasn't the best experience, because after the first two books, our publisher lost faith in the series and our artists quit. What do we do next? Because we had already written the third book, and finally, dynamite picked it up, and we were very glad they hired a new artist and but it went so extremely slowly, and knew it wasn't gonna wasn't gonna be a huge success, because it was years too late. If it if the third book had gotten to appear in time, that would have been one thing, but it didn't. Anyway, I was glad that the third installment got to appear, and I really enjoyed the whole process, and honestly, I think it's a good trilogy. I am sorry that it didn't do better for complex reasons, but I, you know, I stand by it,

Michael David Wilson 59:52
right? Well, I know that we're coming up to the time that we have together, but earlier. You spoke about aspirations, and I wonder, what are some of the career aspirations that you have? What are some of the white whales or things that you'd like to achieve?

Charlaine Harris 1:00:14
You know, if I, if I talk about them, I'm afraid I'll put a jinx on them. There are awards I would still like to win that I've never even been nominated for. There are I'd still like to have a movie. I'd still like to have a hand in casting for one of the I have two TV series coming up, and I would love to have a little more say in casting than I ever had. That would be interesting. I would like to observe that, gosh, I've just had such a blessed career that it's really hard to think of things to still want. But I find you have to, yeah, because you have to keep, you know, putting the carrot out in front of your face,

Michael David Wilson 1:01:09
right? Yeah, it sounds like you're in a tremendous place. I mean, you're still hungry for a few things, but equally, you're very happy with what has been achieved, and, oh,

Charlaine Harris 1:01:22
honestly, who could imagine a career like, like, Moon, um, golly, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:01:28
yeah. Well, I'm sure most people listening are incredibly envious, but, you know, in the in the most positive way, like, you know, an envy that comes with love. Let's say that,

Unknown Speaker 1:01:43
yes. Well,

Michael David Wilson 1:01:45
I wonder, what advice would you give to your 18 year old self? I

Charlaine Harris 1:01:50
wouldn't give my 18 year old self a word of advice you have to learn as you go and you know, unless you're old enough to appreciate the advice you're given, which I wasn't at 18. There's really no point in giving it.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:08
That's great. Yeah, that might be one of the best answers we've ever had to that question, yeah. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us this morning. It has been a tremendous pleasure. And I mean, honestly, anytime you want to chat with us again, we've got a lot more that we can chat about. Oh,

Charlaine Harris 1:02:31
well, thank you so much, and I've enjoyed it as well. I hope that I have answered everyone's questions, and if you need to follow up, I'll be glad to help. That's

Michael David Wilson 1:02:43
wonderful. I wonder where can our listeners connect with you?

Charlaine Harris 1:02:49
On my Facebook page. I have a public Facebook page. I also have a website, Charlene harris.com where you can ask questions. I'm very easy to get in touch with. Good Reads. I answer questions on Goodreads, so I'm very accessible.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:10
All right, do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to leave our listeners with? Well,

Charlaine Harris 1:03:17
I just guess that this career path is one of perseverance and

Michael David Wilson 1:03:28
blind faith. Thank you so much for listening to our podcast with Charlene Harris join us again next time when we will be chatting with Anya Martin. And of course, if you want to get that ahead of the crowd, if you want to listen right now, then join us over on Patreon. If you go to www.patreon.com forward slash listeners horror and pledge $1 you can hear the first part of the conversation with Anya Martin, and if you join us at $4 then you get the full conversation. You could be listening to that right now. And not only do you get the full conversation with Anya, but you can submit questions for each and every interviewee. We've got Elizabeth hand on the show, Eddie generous, Doug Marrano, te growl. He'll be coming back on the show. We've got Lauren buchas, Keelan, Patrick Burke, Caitlin, Starling and many, many more. So already, as you can hear, so many people lining up to be on this is horror. And believe me, we are just getting started in 2019, it will be the biggest and the best year for the podcast. You're going to see or you're going to hear, I should say more episodes than ever. There are going to be more patrons, there will be more downloads. You know, it's a case of, Let's do everything that we've done, but better and bigger, and we're putting in the work, and we're getting you these conversations. So if you have $1 please join us. Www.patreon.com forward slash. This is horror. All right, before I wrap up, let us have a quick word from our sponsors. Do

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Michael David Wilson 1:06:40
always. I would like to end with a quote, and today's quote is from Chuck paulinek. So this is why I write, because most times your life isn't funny the first time through, most times you can hardly stand it. That's why I write, because life never works, except in retrospect, and writing makes you look back. Because since you can't control life, at least you can control your version. I'll see you in the next episode, but until then, take care of yourself. Be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have a great, great day.