TIH 290: Paul Tremblay on Creating Emotional Impact, Drafting Novels, and Humour

Michael David Wilson 0:00
Welcome to This is horror. I'm your host, Michael David Wilson, and today, alongside Bob pastorella, we're going to be chatting with Paul Tremblay for part two with a conversation if you missed part one. And as always, head back just one episode to 289 and learn about Paul's new short story collection, growing things, learn which kid he would sacrifice at the end of the world and much more. But as with all of these conversations, you can listen to them in any order and what an episode this is. And I should point out that around about the 45 minute mark, there is a spoiler for the cavern at the end of the world. So we warn you in advance. It is a Patreon question that was submitted, but be on the listen out for that one and skip it if you haven't read the cabin at the end of the world yet, because kind of spoils quite a bit of it. As always, the show notes are pretty extensive. So not only did we let you know when that starts we let you know when the spoilers are over. Now, before we jump into the conversation as always, let's have a quick word from our sponsors.

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Michael David Wilson 2:39
Okay, well, with that said, Here it is. It is part two of the conversation with Paul Tremblay horror.

Well, the next question from Brian Whitley is an interesting one. So he says, recently on the Lovecraft ezine podcast, the question was posed about who would win if you Laird Baron and John langen had a brawl, the crowd favorite, based on the comments, seemed to be lead Baron. Would you like to dispute this claim?

Paul Tremblay 3:26
I am not going to participate in a discussion of toxic male behavior. I'm just kidding. Yeah. I mean, I'd say Laird would definitely probably win. I will say, though, with only half modesty, I am by far the most athletic of the three. So I kind of feel like, if I had to, where are we, like, are we, like, in a closed space? Then, yeah, I'm definitely toast. But if we're like, outside and like, I've got a lot of room to run, I feel like I could sneak in get a shot and then run until he gets tired, and then come back in, sneak a shot, and then run around until they're both tired. I feel like I could do that, but I imagine Laird would never give up. Yeah, and then John would be become interested in something else, right? So Laird would eventually become the winner? Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 4:22
yeah, I like how you said. I'm definitely not going to engage in this toxic masculinity kind of question. However, this is how I might win or do quite well in the fight.

Paul Tremblay 4:36
Yeah, if we're talking like playing basketball or or even ping pong wouldn't even be close. There

Michael David Wilson 4:42
you go. Has been laid down. I do like as well, though, in your version, how John langen just kind of gets a bit bored if the fire just goes off elsewhere, is like, right? That's, that's enough for one day. Yeah. Okay, well, the final Ryan Whitley question, who is a current, up and coming horror writer that you'd like to see get more attention.

Paul Tremblay 5:14
Geez, all of them, well, I mean, the first one that jumps, jumps to mind, you know, she is getting some attention. But certainly, you know, I want, I'm thinking, I'm interpreting this as like I would like to see published by major, you know, large publishers. Yeah, Nadia Balkan would be first and foremost in my head with her collection. See, she said, Destroy. That's almost like a tongue twister to try to say that fast. She said, Destroy. It's an amazing collection, although I know she's working on sort of a hybrid sports, tennis memoir. So I mean her. I mean anything that she writes is going to be amazing and interesting. So I'm looking forward to bigger and greater things from her Carrie laban's novel A hawk in the woods is excellent, just out from word horde press, and she and I have the same agents, which is awesome. So I'm hoping, I'm hoping the hawk in the woods gets read by more people, and again, that you know, bigger and better things happen for her as well. She's trying to think I'm so terrible at just coming up with with names, you know, right off the top, like that, Gabino Iglesias. To me, I guess an obvious one, although, I mean, obviously his name is, is just sort of skyrocketing. You know, I wish for Gabino a large, seven figure public, uh, advance from a publisher, that'd be awesome. Yeah, we'll stick with those three. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 6:46
difficult to argue with them. Unlike

Paul Tremblay 6:54
I was gonna say, Put cabino in the room with Laird, John and I, and then I, there's a new champion to that, to that fight to the death,

Bob Pastorella 7:02
yeah, oh, yeah. He's, he's big, yeah, yeah. And I met, I met him in person, and it's just when you since he's not very tall, but it's like, Dude, can you put down the weights? Yeah, he's, he's kind of physique that that I used to want. Oh, my god, yeah. Do

Michael David Wilson 7:25
you not want any more, Bob? Did you just decide one day

Bob Pastorella 7:29
I tried to get when I was I used to be a lot, a lot heavier, right? And I tried to to use that as a way to get even bigger. And that's, that's a lot of weightlifting, and at my age, and gabina, I mean, Gabino is a lot younger than me, my when I was trying to do it, even at my age, and it was, man, it's hell on your joints. Man, yeah, you know, especially, especially as you're trying to do that, he's been, he's been doing this for years. I mean, he's, you know, he's, he's a trainer, you know, so he's got, he's got that, that kind of, I guess, that muscle last See, that older people don't have when they try to do that. And, no, it was trying to get, like, that size, you know, for me was it was quite painful, and I was just like, Nah, I'm done. I'm not doing this. Yeah, so I went the other direction and started doing a lot of cardio and just lost weight. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 8:31
I think it's a little bit silly when people decide to put esthetics over health and actually functionality. So I mean, I've had a number of joint and arthritis problems, so anytime I try and bulk up, it just like ends in disaster for me. So I'll just be a slim, hopefully not too slim guy, though, but it's difficult. Anything you'd like to share, Paul about your physique and fitness?

Paul Tremblay 9:05
No, it's funny, like, I'm in an age where, you know, I do, like, essentially, well, I hurt my left knee playing basketball in July, and then discovered, not July, January, sorry. And then it was a J month. Discovered there was arthritis in both knees, which is a bummer. So I did like, four or five months of physical therapy for my to strengthen the muscles around the knees. So basically, I'm doing like an hour's worth of exercises a day. You know, I do like 100 push ups and sit ups and stuff like that. But it's all not to get bigger or anything. It's all just to hold on to what I have to maintain, just to try to maintain. Yeah, like a weird Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 9:46
yeah, yeah. I mean, that's kind of one of the jokes that people make as they get older. It's like it takes a lot of work to look this mediocre. Yes. Well, Kevin. Watkins would like to know as a fellow t shirt junkie. Not to be confused meth junkie, that was me, not Kevin, with all the T shirts you own, what is your rotation like?

Paul Tremblay 10:14
Oh, man, there's it's weird. I almost feel like, at times, like I'm, uh, when I was a child, I had all these, you know, a very young child, 18, I'm just kidding, um, I had all these stuffed animals, you know. And there would be, it'd have to be a rotation, like, which one do I sleep with on this night? And the rest sort of, I would build a fortress around my head so the boogeyman wouldn't get me. But I would always be like, Oh, I'd feel bad if I neglected one stuffed animal over the other. So it's funny, I will admit, like, I have the core T shirts that are in my dresser, and then I've got stacks of T shirts like in the shelves above my in my closet, and the T shirts in the closet we are under things, you know that no one sees, but the T shirts that are for show are my dresser, but there's still a lot in there too. So I don't know if I have a rotation, but it's funny. I do every once a while, I'll get the pangs and like, oh, that poor t shirt toward the bottom I haven't worn in a while. I feel bad for it. Yeah, someone at this point, honestly, is now vanity. It's like, I mean, I love this t shirt, but does it? Does it look good on me? Whatever that means in my head. But there's always, oh, boy, I'm okay. Are you okay? Lisa, yeah. She gets upset whenever I talk about all the T shirts that I have.

Michael David Wilson 11:45
Maybe, you know, the t shirt that you're wearing at the moment, that was the reaction to me, and

Paul Tremblay 11:54
she was a fault. Yeah, there's definitely a good Jaws t shirt or two that's always sort of like a go to for me. Yeah, because I have, like, three to four but, but today for my son's graduation party, I think I've picked out a special t shirt to properly horrify people, and it says, maybe tomorrow, Satan on

Michael David Wilson 12:15
it. Well, maybe Kevin's most important question, clutch or helmet? Oh,

Paul Tremblay 12:25
Kevin, you bastard. Oh, man, that's really hard. I'm not Yeah, I can't answer that. I these days. Geez. I mean, clutch has more records, you know, more of a discography to listen to. But, I mean, helmet was so important to me. I was so, you know, and am still, like, so obsessed with me and time and Betty and some of the other records, you know. And Paige was, Hamilton, was the first musician I met and became friendly with, you know, I'm gonna continue to weird, brag and say, I've also become friendly with Neil Fallon of clutch, whose lyrics have been a huge inspiration to me as a writer. You know, this is even an older short story where I sort of trim from one of his lyrics. So, yeah, I'm gonna say it's a push, Kevin, I'm not, don't make me choose. You're like asking me to choose between my children. I'm gonna go have master now to deal with this.

Michael David Wilson 13:22
Yeah, that's his third question. Cues between your children. It's not actually, but yeah, I remember last time, or possibly two times ago, you did tell us about, you know, your interactions with Neil Fallon, so if people want to listen to that, then go back to whichever episode it was. Paul Tremblay. I'm not going to tell you the number, but if you search, then maybe you can find it. Okay. Well, the next question is from David buzzboom, and he says, just this year, I read in the meantime and swallowing a donkey's eye, I'm hoping to dive into your more recent stuff in the near future. But can you tell us more about those two books? Sure.

Paul Tremblay 14:19
So in the meantime, was a short story collection published in 2010 with cheesy and publications, I think was like 13 stories. And okay, I mentioned earlier, sort of there was sort of a loose theme of apocalypse, or of the end of days with those stories, and swallowing a talkies eye is a, is sort of my Ode to Vonnegut, sort of kind of novel. It's a, it's a weird, satirical, I wouldn't call it post apocalyptic, but it's like a sort of an unnamed future where there's this city just called city built, built up atop of this. Giant, like on the coastline, and it's built above, like a 200 foot tall wooden pier, like the post to the pier, or like sequoia tree. So, I mean, it's just a huge wooden pier. The city above is really technologically advanced, but sort of mirroring our society. You know why I wrote this? I wrote this in like 2005 ish. And actually, I mean, I wrote over a period of years, so I probably started it in like, oh 405, anyway, if you're homeless in city, you get shipped below peer to eke out in existence. But the novel opens in, you know, it's just called farm, and farm is the food supplier of city. The people who work there are sort of indentured servants, like you have to sign up, like a six year contract to live there, kind of thing. And, you know, it's definitely much like sort of a political like crazy Kitchen Sink satire. There's a lot of cool stuff in that. Still, it was funny that was from a period of my writing where most of my novel attempts to that point, even including my first two novels that were published by Henry Holt, those were all sort of humor, dark humor novels. So I'd say like from 2000 to 2010, just about all the short stories I wrote were horror. But anytime I tried to write like a novel ended up being like a dark humor thing. Again, to go back to the, you know, horror and humor so closely related, and a handful of ghosts. I mean, when I wrote it 2013 part of the excitement for me for that book was, it was the first horror novel that I'd written, because, again, prior to it was, you know, the goofy, not goofy, but the sort of humorous detective novels swallowing donkey's eye. The novel I wrote that I didn't publish, but I I managed to get my agent with, was a comedy novel set in Boston. So yeah, definitely swirling donkey's eye is a fun read. I mean, there's still some, like, really dark, twisted stuff in it too. But definitely proud of that book. Thank you for reading that.

Michael David Wilson 16:59
And have you found that in recent years you've had to rein the humor in? I mean, do you find that maybe in your first draft of, like, the last three novels that you've written, you found there to be more humor and you've had to cut it out? I mean, I should add as well, it's not like they're a dry read. It's not like they're devoid of humor, but, you know, compared to the earlier stuff, it's obviously more in that horror than humor mode.

Paul Tremblay 17:30
Yeah, I didn't have, I didn't have a hard time with Devil's rock and cabin because, I mean, they're both pretty grim, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 17:36
I mean, I think Devil's rock is the one with the least humor of the laugh. Yeah,

Paul Tremblay 17:41
right, although you know, you know that hopefully you know the humor or the kids talking to each other, you know was supposed to be both annoying and humorous, because, you know, middle school or 13 year old boys were annoying even when they're making jokes and making fun of each other. So I mean, yeah, they're still like and I was actually pleased to hear some people thought that there were parts of a head full of ghosts that they thought was, like, really funny and fun, just cool. But I will say I definitely have an itch to someday, even soonish, you know, if not right, like, a full blown like, something that's humorous, but try to mix more humor in. And actually, I would say, like, I'm trying to, in this novel that I'm writing now, to have a little bit of a tone shift, like the first 100 or so pages, you know, it's obviously very dark and bad stuff's going on. It's not that stuff isn't dark anymore. But in the middle, I'm trying to have a little bit of a tone switch where there is some humor before it switches back to awfulness again.

Bob Pastorella 18:43
Well, that should come fairly easy, because, you know, like you mentioned earlier, horror and comedy kind of go hand in hand, you know, and it's like even even in even in film, we see that some of the, some of our best comedic actors can take a dark turn and pull it off so well is because they have, because they have that empathy, you know, no thinking, and you need, and you need that when you're riding horror, you know. So it's, to me, it's like, you know, they, they go hand in hand. I can't do comedy work with shit. I mean, it's, I guess I can. I can write things that will kind of make you maybe chuckle, but, you know, fall out laughing, you know, like catch 22 funny, you know,

Paul Tremblay 19:39
right? Let's fight. I mean, yeah, I mean, both are, they're hard to do. I mean, I think part of the pro, you know, part of the challenge, I won't call it a problem, is that both what scares, what scares people, is so subjective, right? What scares you might not scare me and say, and definitely, obviously, the same thing with humor, maybe even more so with humor. You know, what you find funny? Some. Else might not find funny, you know, the course, you know, someone else might find offensive. You know, it's, it is a lot more fraught. Or maybe, maybe the same amount of fraughtness equal frontness will go math. Yeah, so, I mean, it is hard, I don't know. Like, I tend not to be a giant fan of, like, humorous horror movies. I mean, Evil Dead two is one of my favorite movies of all time. So it's not like a hard, fast rule, but I don't know. Sometimes, you know, when they try for that mix, it just gets, you know, too goofy and not funny for my tastes. But again, I know that's my taste. But like I said, evil that too to me, Ike is a work of genius and is still hilarious. I think part of why that movie still holds up so well, not just the humor, but sort of the energy with which it's presented, with how it's shot. And I do think there are still some genuine moments of horror in that movie, too. I think that's maybe what a lot of other movies that try to do the humor horror. Thing is missing is that they don't have, actually, the moments of horror as well. My favorite kind of humor in horror would be something like in Jaws, where it's it's sort of quick, it releases a little bit of energy, and it brings empathy and like, it brings you into the story. Like, to me, a perfect moment. Example is, you know, and Roy Scheider is, you know, you know, chumming. It's like, you come and Chum this shit, like, so you're with him, like he's obviously frustrated, like he doesn't want to do this, you know what he's doing. And then when he sees the shark, and backs up, and this is the first time we really see the shark, too, and then you back up, he just says, You're gonna need a bigger boat. I mean, that's such a it's both funny, but it's also, it also like, verbalizes the horror of that moment, like the realization that they're screwed. You know, it's like a nervous laughter. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's the humor part's definitely hard

Bob Pastorella 21:55
to do. Yeah, it's and evil did too. It's so organic,

Paul Tremblay 21:59
right? I agree, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 22:03
And to me, it's like, the more organic it is, the better it's going to work. But, you know, at the same time, and I mentioned, like, test 22 there's, you know, the the part with, with major, major, major, major, you know, you know, being, you know, double major in in his name is Major Major, right? That's humorous. Is funny, but if you look at it from his perspective, it has driven him insane, which is also, can, can be funny, but also has this kind of, this, this evilness to it. Yeah, there's a horror that's there. I can only imagine how having a name like that, you know? And of course, in real life, you run across people who have like you, very strange and unusual names. And the first thing that comes to my mind is like, why? Who would name their kidnapped, right? What kind of evil fucking person are you to do that to your kid? And then, of course, you know, you see this person, and they're very well adjusted. They've, they've, you know, you, but in the back of your mind, you're like, going, Man, I wonder if there's any kind of anything there, you know, that's, that's dark about that, but just, you know, it's, it's, it's hard to pull off, but, uh, I so love the the creators and writers who can do it.

Paul Tremblay 23:31
You know, definitely,

Michael David Wilson 23:32
yeah, I think I actually, at times find right in humor to be easier than right in horror. And I think, I mean, you said that you can find, obviously, what you find funny is not necessarily what someone else does, and the same with what frightens you. But I think really, you just have to trust what you find funny or what you're afraid of and go with that. And you know, hope that there is going to be someone else who has that same response. And I think that that generally works. I mean, as you say, as well make sure that what you find funny isn't grossly offensive. I know that. I know that offense is subjective, but I would like to think that most discerning people could work out what may kind of rub people the wrong way and may upset the majority of people right. But I think the humor that perhaps I find most effective, and yeah, there are going to be exceptions, like Evil Dead. Two are those that are more funny characters or funny situations, but they're played in a completely straight way, so it's not slapstick, it's just an amazing scenario.

Unknown Speaker 24:57
Yeah, definitely. Mm, hmm.

Michael David Wilson 24:59
But shifting away from horror and humor, Roger Venable has got a couple of questions. So Okay, the first one, I think we've probably dealt with, because he wants to know, what are you working on next? So I'm assuming that is the novel that we've spoken about. I mean, if you know what you're working on after that, I guess you could, you could tell Roger that, I do not know. Okay, there you go, Roger. That's your answer. And the second one, any books coming out soon, you are particularly looking forward to

Paul Tremblay 25:38
none of them. No, jeez. I don't know. It's hard to think it's funny, because, I mean, I'm, I'm in a very fortunate situation where I get sent a lot of arcs from upcoming books like so, for example, I just got Alma katsus The Deep sort of her not a follow up in terms of, like, a sequel, but, you know, the next book after I

Michael David Wilson 26:03
assumed it wasn't the donapa ear back resurrected,

Paul Tremblay 26:11
they're in a boat. Yeah, no, apparently. So this one, I guess, you know, is a fictional account of a different another ship. I don't know if this is true in history or not, like I just briefly read the description on the back the Britannica. I think is the name of a ship that sunk, like right around the same time as the Titanic, or maybe she's creating this. I'm not sure. I don't know the history of boats, but I'm sure I will after I read on this book. So I'm definitely looking forward to that. Richard cadre just came out with a new novel that I just got, that I can't remember the title of, but it's not sitting in front of me, the grand dark. Yes, the granddark, thank you, which I'm looking forward to reading. Yeah. Otherwise, it's funny, like, I'm sort of so it's, I just finished school, like, a few weeks ago, right? I've had two weeks off of school, essentially. So I've on, it's weird to say, but I've totally been focused on two things, getting my stupid house cleaned for the graduation party for my son that we're having today. Man, the basement. Spent so many hours cleaning out the basement. And also, more interestingly, to the to the podcast, just really focused on the novel survivor song. I've really been totally in my head in that book, so I to almost, like, to the exclusion of other things, man, that's one of the skills I picked up, like, as a, you know, full time teacher, is that when it's writing time, time, I'm really good at, like, just blocking out everything else, and so I know I have to write. Basically, you know, I've read, I'm at about 50,000 words. I think I have 20,000 words left, and I've written maybe, you know, five since I've been out of school. So even when I'm not working on the book, I've been thinking about it. So I guess I'm trying to make an excuse for not having more titles that I'm looking forward to coming out later this year. But don't worry, I'll be getting plenty of arcs, and I usually post pictures of them on my Instagram. So that's sort of like a fun way. That's sort of why I do it too, even if I don't get the chance to read some of these arcs that it gets sent. It's almost like having that nice little record or seeing, you know, seeing what's coming up soon, you know, particularly from horror publishers, yeah, although I will say is because it'll be new for Roger Damian Angelica Walters, has a novel coming out later this year, and I just got to read again an early edition of that it's called the dead girls club, and which is really good. And I was, like, blown away, honored that, like the publisher, like within the description of the book, actually used a head full of ghosts as a comparison, which is just sort of weird to think that publishers are using one of my books as a comparison now. So I believe her novel comes out in either like October or November. So that's definitely one that you're going to want to look out for. I believe. Have you had her on? This is horror we

Michael David Wilson 29:13
have. Oh, yeah. But, I mean, it may be time to get her back on to talk about that too. Yeah. No, yeah. So I think it has been a couple of years now, but you said that you've written 50,000 words, and there's about 20,000 left. So I mean, I'm wondering is, is that kind of a first draft, but at the same time, the first draft is pretty clean, because obviously, we're at the end of June. Now you're dead, right? Is August, and I know that some people kind of take the time to make sure that the first draft is pretty polished, and then they'll go over it a few times after, whereas other people. People will just race to get it out as quickly as they can. So, I mean, what's your approach at the moment as

Paul Tremblay 30:08
I, you know, I definitely do a lot of editing as I go, like, and you and when it's a novel, I'll typically, you know, rework and go through a chapter, like, a bunch of times before I move on to the next chapter, you know. And then when I start a new chapter, that whole sort of process starts again. So typically, my, you know, my first complete draft is, you know, fairly clean, you know, I wouldn't, you know, call it fully clean, you know, I still have to edit it and stuff like that. So, yeah, no, I'm definitely behind where I usually am, you know, in terms of a deadline. I hope that I make it, though, but I play my editor, because last summer, she said to me, you could be late with a deadline. Don't tell me that. So if I think, if I'm a few weeks late, I'll think it'll be the worst thing in the world. But I still in my head. I'm really trying to get it done for the first week of August.

Michael David Wilson 31:04
Yeah. Well, we hope you meet as well. Might have said, yes,

Bob Pastorella 31:10
that seems like the opposite of what they should say, yeah, yeah. Almost like hanging that deadline. You actually need to be a little bit before that. Yeah. So now would put you in the mood to make it well, I made it by deadline to exactly what they wanted. So

Paul Tremblay 31:25
Well, Lisa gets upset when I say this. Now she's in the room, but the whole deadline thing seems to be like a blurry thing for people who are her English majors. And I'm gonna like John Langan is a perfect example that guy is never is yet to meet a deadline he won't blow past.

Michael David Wilson 31:48
I wish you I could argue with you, but if I think about, you know me and deadlines, and we've got the episode where we spoke with Joshua kioplin ski of lit reactor, and he he may have ousted me as someone who is very good at keeping the deadlines that you've

Paul Tremblay 32:08
Yeah, it doesn't make you a bad person. It just makes you an English major.

Michael David Wilson 32:17
Well, moving on from such a controversial claim, we've got a question from SM fedo, and he says on the maybe impossible to answer front, each of Paul's books have emotionally and powerfully hit readers in different ways. I know a head full of ghosts hit me hard, and others have shared their experience with cabin. What do you think you are putting in your writing that it affects readers so strongly?

Paul Tremblay 32:54
Oh, well, first, thank you. I'm so glad the books worked for you. I mean, that's definitely the hope. I don't know. I mean, I kind of, I try to approach all the characters with empathy, maybe even the ones. They're the quote, unquote villains of the story. You know, with the possible exception of one character in cabin Redmond, I think I try to, you know, approach all the other characters in all my other books with empathy. And again, empathy is different than sympathy. You're not sympathizing with them. It's the want to understand them. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to answer. I mean, I feel like, if I care about what's happening, you know, I hope that the reader does too, you know, maybe I think, I think it definitely helps that, you know, so in a headphone goes, for example, I think I talked earlier in the podcast about in a novel, I try to have, like, maybe, you know, some of the big horror, or the main big horror happen, not at the end, but you know, either that minute, you know, towards the beginning, or the halfway point, or the two thirds point, and then, like, show how the People do, how the characters deal with it afterwards. So I think I, you know, the hope is that when I do that, it lends, you know, it gives the reader time to think about how they would react if that had happened to them, right? You know, to me, it was important to me and a head full of ghosts, to have the attempted exorcism not happen at the end, but happened at like the two thirds point. And I definitely think the most sort of crushing part of that book is what happens after the attempted exorcism. You know, I think disappearance of Devil's rock, the disappearance happens early. So really, the whole the rest of the book is sort of like a tough go, right? So, yeah, I'm not, it's weird. I'm sort of, like talking my way around it, because I'm not quite, I don't know quite how to answer that question fully. I'm just, that's for me. It's just like part of the process that I trust. But, you know, I always question it, like I wasn't sure, especially with, like, disappearance of Devil's rock. Talk if people were gonna like that story or not. I feel like I'm sort of struggling with the same thing with the novel that I'm working on now. But I think if you're as a writer, I think if you worry about like people, if you worry about people wanting not again, not to sympathize with your characters, but to want to understand them, to understand the decisions they're making. I think, honestly, that's like more than half the battle. If you just sort of focused, even in your own head, if you just sort of focused on, like, what happens from A to B to C to D, if you spend more of your time thinking about the characters, I think it can't help but it can't help but make those characters more real for you, and I think that's going to make it more real for the readers too.

Bob Pastorella 35:45
Yeah. I also think that if you knew what it is that you're putting in, and if you could, if you could narrow it down, and you could define it, and you could even, you know, say it then trying to replicate it would fail, right? Because it's part of an organic process, you know? It's like, hang on it, and it page 212 you put in this sentence, just change the character's names, and everything else will just fall right into place every single time. And it's like, you know, I did that exactly like he said. I paid $39 for this. It didn't work, you know. So I think it's just, it's too it's something that that yeah, it is maybe the impossible question,

Paul Tremblay 36:33
although I do put math on the pages, yeah, here's the answer, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 36:36
I mean, that's gonna be a common theme. Well, that has been a common theme, yeah, so maybe we can finally call the episode Paul Tremblay on meth. We've always got the topics and yes, I don't know, whenever I write on like, through my immacule mind, I do think of like all the various drugs, or it'd be be funny if we called this max booth third on Coke, or Paul Tremblay on meth, on

Paul Tremblay 37:09
meth. Yes. You

Bob Pastorella 37:11
know, there's always that one person who's gonna say that we misspelled math. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 37:20
Nothing to add to that. Bob, well sm fedo has a second question, and he's gleaned your hatred for pickles over at your Twitter feed. He says, What did a pickle ever do to you was your dad a pickle that went out for a pack of smokes and never came home, so you have a raw resentment to all of them, or what

Paul Tremblay 37:52
that's that's awesome. I won't write that story now. Yeah, it was a pickle. Pickles are just horrible. You know, I will point out that Stephen Graham Jones is on my team of anti pickle. This is, this is not pickle zero. This is not the reason why I did not like pickles before this. But there was an odd pickle incident in my childhood where a guy was, geez, probably like seven or eight, and I was being babysitted by a high school students, local high school students, and they were probably high or something, because she was there with her friends. And I remember I was laying in bed asleep, and I woke up to hear them giggling. You know, I was laying on my side, there was something went in my ear. They were sticking like a pickle in my ear. Oh, wow, see, that's

Bob Pastorella 38:44
dramatic, right there. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 38:45
I think I I vaguely remember you telling us about this incident. Obviously, SM wanted you to relive it all over again.

Paul Tremblay 38:56
It is so weird. I mean, because, like, you know, I have that memory, but it's like, one of those, such as, like, there's no context to it. There's no like, follow up memory to it. It's also like, Did that really happen? But I don't want to tell you that's what, that's what I do remember happening.

Michael David Wilson 39:12
Yeah. And can you confirm for the podcast audience that your father was not a pickle, because you have my father, haven't denied that

Paul Tremblay 39:21
my father was not a pickle. Okay, I'm sure he doesn't like pickles. He's like, super, super picky guy who, even though he's seven years now, like, doesn't eat salad, so he's definitely not eating a pickle.

Michael David Wilson 39:35
So maybe, maybe this is where your hatred for pickles actually came from. It's a kind of genetic thing that's been passed down. I mean, does your son like pickles?

Paul Tremblay 39:48
No, my son definitely does not like pickles. My daughter does, though,

Michael David Wilson 39:51
maybe it's just a male thing.

Bob Pastorella 39:55
I'm surprised that they were even exposed to pickles, which are deep. Hatred of them. Yeah,

Paul Tremblay 40:01
I don't know how I must live through I mean, because there's definitely no pickles in the house this terrible world that we live in, yeah, people put pickles on everything. Everything comes with pickles. Even when I ask for no pickles, it still comes. And then I get angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. I'll tell you what, if I go back to the Laird Baron question if, like, we were getting ready to fight and then someone tried to give me pickles, I think that would give me enough rage that I would prevail. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 40:31
we know you said before that you couldn't pick a favorite between your daughter and son, but now that you've said that your daughter likes pickles. I mean, isn't it obvious?

Paul Tremblay 40:43
Yeah, that's okay. I love is blind. I can overlook, I can overlook that she likes pickles.

Michael David Wilson 40:49
Okay, so I've been unsuccessful in trying to incite you into choosing your favorite child. So, you know, I'll try again the next time we get you on. Okay. Well, the final question is from Shannon F Scott, and this is a spoiler question, so this is to do with the cabin at the end of the world. So if you're listening and you haven't read it, then you might want to skip and look in the show notes for when we stop spoiling it. So with that said, here we go. The cabin at the end of the world was so well written and almost impossible to put down, but it will be hard to read again now that I know how it ends, I kept wishing for a different outcome, even though I could see how much this one worked and made sense, how did your early readers or editors respond to your choices with Wen's character? Did anyone try to change your mind? Did you consider other scenarios with her, or did you know what would happen to her from the start of writing the novel?

Paul Tremblay 42:06
Huh? That's a great question. No one tried to talk me out of it. I think I might have one person reads like, Oh, they're gonna make you change it. And I'm like, Yeah, I don't think they are. And I did know that she was going to die, basically from the start, you know, the how might have changed a little bit. No, I mean, that was, it was obviously, it's not, it's not a nice thing. It's pretty horrible. I mean, when I was thinking in terms of, like, cold, calculating, just in terms of story, I don't know. I knew that one of the family members had to die otherwise, like, because I kind of feel like one of the reasons that works so well is that, like you're sort of sailing along, okay, the invaders are now killing each other. So maybe you feel like, even subconsciously, that the family, Andrew, Eric and and when are safe, you know, they're not, you know, one of them's not going to die. Or maybe you're starting to feel that safety a little bit, especially the point in the book where we are, like, where we get to so that it was important to me in terms of story, that one of them had to die, just so you know, to shock the reader, not just like a cheap shock, but to make the reader realize, oh my god, none of these characters are safe. None of us are safe. Now, it's horrible, and it was hard to write, especially I thought a lot about the chapter after Wen's death, like how, or even the rest of the book, what was going to happen after her death, because I was really concerned about, I was worried that that might be the emotional climax of the book, and, like, everything afterwards would sort of like, not be a letdown, but like, you know, wouldn't be as impactful. And I don't know if it is or not as impactful after her death. I mean, I was aware of that issue, though. So, yeah, no, my editor never tried to talk me out of it. I mean, I I had to present to my editor 50 pages in a summary before they offered me the book deal. So that would you know her dying was in the summary. She knew it was coming. I mean, she did say, I think this is going to be a hard book to pull off, but I think you can do it, which is both cool and scary to hear. But when the book was finished, you know, she her praise was effusive. And honestly, of all the books that I've done, I had the least amount of edits, like we didn't really change any of the story. Sort of got lucky with that. Really only thing I tweaked was, like, at one point, the point of view of the Leonard chapter, right after when's death wasn't second person. I ended up changing it to first person. I mean, third person, based on some commentary I got back from Stephen Graham Jones. Actually, he was. One of the first readers. So, yeah, no, the publisher was on board with me and that story the whole time, we've probably already scared away some of the spoiler folk. But in the United States anyway, July 2, the day that growing things come up, comes out the paperback, the trade paperback of the cabinet in the world comes out as well on July 2, and the paperback does have, like, one extra to it. It's got, I wrote a 2000 word sort of essay, like liner notes section, where I go through, you know, chapter by chapter, and talk about some of the origins, talk about what some of the different things mean to me, some like Easter egg stuff that I put in the book, and I definitely talk about the ending of the novel and the why of it, we'll call it, we'll call it my rebuttal on the ending. So I know I've heard some people have issue with the ending of the book.

Bob Pastorella 45:53
No, I didn't. I definitely didn't have any problem with with that. I remember when I read it and I came to that I came to that section. I was, I felt like, you know, at first I was kind of like, alright, that's a dick move, but, but then, you know, I understand how it worked. So I had to give it to my coworker, the one who, when she read a head full of ghosts, was taking pictures of the book and reading it on her phone while, while working, yeah, and so, of course, and she had it for like, a month, in fact. You know, I was like, I was like, Christy, you have to read you have to read it. You have to read it after read it. And finally, she started reading it. And, and she was like, oh shit. She read, like, the first chapter, and she she goes, I don't know why I waited so long. And it was like, two days later, she, you know, she gave me the book back. And she was like, okay, oh, wow, um Yeah, I cried, you know,

Unknown Speaker 46:55
she was like,

Bob Pastorella 46:56
this book fucked me up. And I was like, I go, I told you. I said I don't know why you waited so long. And, and she was just like, wow. And it was just, but she, she didn't have a problem with any of it. Because, I mean, we taught, I said, Did you, did you have a problem with that? And she was like, no, she was, it was, she was, it was rough. Just because, you know, I have kids about, you know, her age, and, and shows, but you know, it makes, you know, she if it made sense, and she has, now she has the kind of thing that I knew, you know. And I'm like, Yeah, it's like, in the back of your mind, you kind of know, you know. And it's like, you're just like, oh, when it came, when it happened, I was like, oh, but great book, thanks,

Paul Tremblay 47:44
yeah. I mean, it was hard. I mean, I so I really wanted to make, you know, I really tried hard to make one, like, a really interesting, you know, full, full full blooded, you know, character, you know, so that, you know, for two things, actually, because I know, like, you know, killing a child can be, like, a cheap thing to do in a horror movie or a horror story. Movies in particular, I think so I thought it would only be fair the reader to, you know, make sure that they did, like, really know her well. And obviously, because she's a child, you're gonna, you know, really like her, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't like an evil child story where, you know that it's hard to do, I mean, so I really spent a lot of time, like, building one up, you know, with, you know, with that sort of moment in the book of mind, you know. And it couldn't be Andrew or Erica time, because the novel was about their choice, you know, that was the story. What was the choice that they're going to make? Right? So, yeah, sorry. One, I didn't mean to say that and then cackle. Like, yeah, that was a nervous like, I'm a monster laugh. That's what my my Titan publicist, Lydia, calls me a monster all the time. One,

Michael David Wilson 49:00
yes, yeah, well, moving away from spoilers and welcoming back the readers who have yet to read cabin. I mean, you mentioned writing a summary and turning that into your publishers. So, I mean, I wonder, do you find that writing a summary to your novels ahead of having written it helps or hinders it? Because, I mean, on one hand, you've obviously got a great plan in terms of that summary, in terms of that document, but there are other people who would say that can be creatively quite stifling, knowing how everything's gonna pan out and in writing the summary, it can almost suck out some of the fun of writing the actual story. So I mean, how do you find it?

Paul Tremblay 49:56
Yeah, I mean, for me, I find it helpful. Um. Um, like, I need it, especially if it's a if it's going to have, like, a plot heavy, almost like mystery setup, like, for example, disappearance in Devil's rock. I just don't feel like I'm good enough to make up, like mystery and twist like that as I go. I haven't done it for every novel, a head full of ghosts. I did not write a summary for I kind of feel like I had that story. Mostly, I was lucky. In my head. I had to make up most of the middle, but I knew, like there was going to be the three part structure. I sort of knew the beginning. I knew the end. I didn't know how to get to the end, necessarily. It was funny with cabin. I didn't really want to write a summary, but I sort of was forced to to get back on book deal. So the first summary that I wrote was sort of half assed, not half assed, I should probably say two thirds. Asked I wrote. I wrote probably a summary for the first two thirds of the novel. And then I said, you know, for the end part, I'm like, I don't know, does this happen or does this happen? I have to write it to find out. And actually, let's see. SST publications over in the UK, they they're doing limited editions of a head full of ghost, disappearance of Devil's rock. And also they're going to do a cabin at the end of the world. And one of the extras that we're going to include with the limited edition of cabin. But you know, you know we'll include, like the liner notes essay, where I talk about the things that in the book. But I thought it would also be kind of fun to include the first summary that I wrote for cabin that I sent to my publisher, because actually the novel became quite different. To go back to the original thing that you had said that sometimes you know, write me is writing the summary. Does it spoil the book sometimes? And for me, I found that the total opposite that, to me, the fun part is how things change, you know, because I view the summary as this, like really loose map, or maybe not even a map. Let's go with a building metaphor. It's, you know, it's the scaffolding. It's not the actual building. And I find with almost all the books that I've done, you know, the summary is there, but you know, things change, you know, you know, not maybe the the biggest plot points of like the ending or or some other things. But I know those moments of discovery for me are the fun part. And I find that the summary doesn't doesn't ruin that. For me, it doesn't ruin the discovery.

Michael David Wilson 52:27
Yeah, and I mean, if, while you're kind of writing, you do find that there's a major change that is going to benefit the story, is that something you've got, like freedom to do? Do you have to talk to your editor before you write it and just give them the heads up in terms of what's going on?

Paul Tremblay 52:51
No. I mean, I guess it would depend on the book, but not No, no, I guess the short answer is no. I've never felt like I've had to do that. I also hadn't really had, like that, like, huge of a deviation. I mean, with cabin, they didn't know what the ending was. So even though I started off the different ending in mind and the ending changed, you know, I didn't really have to tell her about that. And with this new novel I'm working on, I wrote, like, I don't even know if I would call it a summary, it was almost like a pitch. It's only, like two or three pages, although at times in this process, I kind of wish that I did write a summary, because I have had to make up a lot more of the plot stuff than I thought. I thought it would because I didn't take the time to write up a summary. I don't know which is fine, like I still try to treat every novel that I do is like it's my first one, in the sense that, like, you know, as a way to remind myself, you know, every story is different. You know, whatever I try to do to prepare for it, I try to tailor it to that novel. And honestly, some of that is just a way to keep the process for myself, like feel fresh and exciting and even frustrating like that. I have to do something different, you know, as a way to push myself. Yeah, so I don't know so much of it is, so I feel like it's funny so many, so many things I do is as ways as a writer, so many things I do as a writer are different ways, just to try to self motivate me, and to try to overcome, like the inherent self doubt in the whole process. Yeah, it's a weird it's a weird balancing act. It's a weird existence, almost as weird as teaching almost as weird as teaching math. But yeah,

Michael David Wilson 54:34
I guess in last few years, since we last spoke about self doubt, you haven't kind of had any revelations or ways in which coping with it becomes easier, have you? No,

Paul Tremblay 54:48
I have not, and I I can't. I don't know if we've talked about this before. I don't think we have, but I was talking to someone recently, and I know it sort of occurred to me. I'm sure someone else has said this at some point. I know this isn't a discovery, but it was a discovery for me. It's like, man, you know, in addition to the just the natural self doubt of the writing process, I mean us writers who are working at this time now, there's no other time period in which we get so much, you know, feedback, like the writers working in 2019 these writers have never had so much feedback to their work, you know, in the history of writing, right? I mean, even like in the 1980s if you were like Clive Barker, let's say, sure you're gonna, you'll see, you'll see reviews and newspapers and stuff everywhere. But that was it, right? But, you know, working in 2019 us writers, you know, cert, I guess you know, you'll see some newspaper reviews, but then there is, like, you know, gobs and countless reviews on Goodreads and Amazon, or, you know, Instagram and like, everywhere. And it's like, even if you try to avoid reading as many as those, as I do like I've stopped reading Goodreads. I've stopped reading Amazon. I'm actually quite proud that I only read one Amazon review for cabin, and then I stopped, which I did not do for the for a head full of ghosts and disappearance of Devil's rock. I sort of drove myself a little crazy reading most of those. But I guess the point is, I feel like it's never been as difficult to deal with the sort of the doubt part of things as it is now, just because of the flood of data, like and even when you try to avoid things, someone will tag you in Twitter, on like, on their negative review, or on Facebook or something. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 56:39
that's very, very bizarre.

Bob Pastorella 56:43
I mean, here's a shitty review I wrote, and I'm going to tag you in it, which is like, move,

Paul Tremblay 56:51
you know, at the same time, yeah, sorry, I would say at the same time, I just want to be whinging the whole time. You like that? Michael, using an English term there for you. Yeah. You know, on the positive side of things, you know, we get so much contact with our readers. And, you know, I get to, you know, I've met so many amazing people because of social media that I never would have met otherwise. So, you know, you know, there's definitely the positive and the negative to both. And it's, it's, it's difficult. I think it's difficult to navigate, and I certainly have no claims on how to navigate it. I'm just trying to do the best that I can, you know, and some days, honestly, it's almost overwhelming to the point where I'll spend time like fantasizing about not writing ever again and just sitting on the couch and watching Netflix all day, or, you know, or like, man, that would be so awesome. Or just like, reading all the books that I, you know, I read a lot, but there's still things I don't get to read, and I can be great if I could just sit around and read all the time in those like, sort of lowest where I'm feeling sort of overwhelmed that all the noise that's going on beyond my control, you know, surrounding my own work. I mean, which? Again, it's a, you know, believe me, I'm a small fish in a huge pond. But you know, most of the time I still go back to the I still go back to the laptop and write most every day. Yeah. So I don't know what question set this off, but it was a good one.

Michael David Wilson 58:28
Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying to remember now what actually

Bob Pastorella 58:33
you're talking about self doubt. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 58:35
yeah, that's the Yeah, yeah. I know that we, we went from pickles to self doubt pretty quickly. Yes, they'll lead you down that path. Yeah, it's a dark, dark road,

Unknown Speaker 58:50
right?

Michael David Wilson 58:52
Well, I wonder, what do you hope people say about you when you're not in the room?

Paul Tremblay 59:00
Oh, boy, that's just a horrifying thing to even like, consider like people talking about you when you're not in the room. I don't know, hopefully you're saying he's not an asshole, which I think is true for the most part. Yeah, everyone has their asshole ish moments.

Michael David Wilson 59:19
Why are they saying it? Is it because they expected you would be an asshole? He's not an asshole. No, I

Paul Tremblay 59:26
don't know. Wow. I mean, just in Oh, any parts of your life, you just hope that people don't think you're like a jerk or a bad person. But I don't know, in terms of my writing, if people are moved to talk about my writing, you know? I hope you know. I would love to think that that people who did enjoy the books, it's cool for me to imagine that, you know, people are talking about, you know, maybe the endings of a head full of ghosts and cabin and talking about their different interpretations, or what it means, or even like, you know, people talking that the books. Affected them in some way, emotionally, like, you know, if that happens, you know that that means a lot, you know, sort of, you know what I what I'm trying to go for, I guess, as a writer,

Michael David Wilson 1:00:13
all right? Well, it's been fantastic chatting with you as it always is. And, I mean, I'm sure we'll do this again for the for the next book, and then I think as long as someone like John FD Taft doesn't come barging in and try and beat you, I mean not physically, but just in terms of being on the podcast, and I think definitely you will be the reigning king of the most appearances on The Satara. So that's something that you were hoping to do. Then next time you can, you can live that dream. I'm sure that you know, being a New York Times bestseller, this will be something that would eclipse that. In terms of achievement,

Paul Tremblay 1:01:00
I will get like, a wrestling belt made that says this is horror. Podcast champion. Yeah, sure. Why

Bob Pastorella 1:01:10
not? Well, podcast champion, Yeah, hello.

Paul Tremblay 1:01:14
Well, thank you, and I appreciate it. And I hope people aren't sick of listening to me. And I hope you guys will get sick of this is a lot of fun.

Michael David Wilson 1:01:21
Yeah, we enjoyed it too. And, I mean, I wouldn't have reached out to you and asked you to be on the podcast if I was sick. I mean, I don't hate myself that much. Well, for those who have not listened to the other episodes, and because I'm not gonna include the audio in where can people connect with you?

Paul Tremblay 1:01:49
So these days, I'm, well, I guess I'm on, sort of like the big three of social media, although maybe I shouldn't even say the big three. I know, like my children, for example, don't use any of well, it's not true. They use Instagram anyway. I'm on Instagram, at Paul G Tremblay, I'm on Twitter. I pretty much answer anything's tweeted at me, as long as you are nice and reasonable at paltry at Paul G Tremblay, you know, I'm on Facebook as well. I have kind of a crappy website that I need to update. I probably should do that at some point, but I think the best places would be Twitter and Instagram.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:23
All right, you haven't graduated to Snapchat. You're not down with a kid for that one. No,

Paul Tremblay 1:02:30
no, I did. You know, I had to do Snapchat research, and I use that a lot. Disappears at Dell's rock. Snapchat is just too scary for me. All

Michael David Wilson 1:02:39
right. Do you have any final thoughts that you want to leave our listeners with?

Paul Tremblay 1:02:47
Jeez. Read growing things July 2 or or in the US. In case you missed the spoiler part of it, the cavity in the world, comes out as a paperback in the US on July seconds. Uh, otherwise, be kind to your fellow horror authors, people. It's hard enough as it is.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:13
Thank you so much for listening to this is horror with Paul Tremblay. Join us again next time when we will be chatting with Keelan, Patrick Burke, but if you want to get that one ahead of the crowd, if you want to get every episode ahead of the crowd, then become our patreon@www.patreon.com forward slash. This is horror, and welcome to our latest Patreon. Patrick Barb, welcome to the family. It's a pleasure to have you here, and I hope you're enjoying it. I saw you're on the discord writers forum, so it's great to see you getting involved there. And hey, that is another fantastic perk of Patreon, not only are you getting every episode ahead of the crowd, but you can submit your stories to other listeners and other writers to beta read and to give you feedback. You know, for $1 I don't think you're gonna get a much better writing club. Then that. This is horror podcast, Patreon. So if you're on the edge, if you want to level up your writing game, www.patreon.com, forward slash. This is horror Okay, before I wrap up a quick word from our sponsors, you

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Now every episode, I end with a quote, and this time we go in with one from Ernest Hemingway. As a writer, you should not judge. You should understand. I'll see you in the next episode. But until then, take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror. Keep on writing and have a great, great day.