Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to this is horror podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm your host Michael David Wilson. And alongside Bob Pastorella, we're going to be rejoining Josh Malerman for part two of the conversation. Now if you missed part one, all you need to do is head back to Episode 305. And in that conversation, we talk about so much we talk about Mallory, the sequel to Birdbox we talk about writing movie adaptations, selling rough drafts, talking about incomplete stories, vague booking, and much, much more. Now remember, at the end of October, a house at the bottom of a lake will no longer be available to buy. So if you have yet to pick up that This Is Horror published novella, now is the time there are less than two weeks to do that. So please do please do not miss out on a house at the bottom of a lake. And if you can't afford to buy it, but you're a member of Kindle Unlimited, you can get it for free. You can read it for free, so do take advantage of that. Okay, well before we get into the episode, let us have a quick word from our sponsors.

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Michael David Wilson 2:58
Okay, well, with that said, it's time for part two of Josh Malerman on This Is Horror. So before you mentioned that you'd recently moved into a new house. So I wondered how that was working out for you and how that has affected things both personally and creatively. Because I know that when we write in different spaces, it can almost have a different energy and it can affect the setup and the way that we do things.

Josh Malerman 3:35
100% So I've forever gauged like where I'm at, by how productive or not I am there. And you can argue my friend told me once he's like, you've transcended Senate. Like you're going to work no matter where you go, like, you know, because I would say to him, Well, I'm moving into this house, you know, we're gonna rent this house. And if I don't write something new in six months, and I'm in the wrong place, you know, and he would say things like, you're you're going to do it either way. And I remember when I first moved to New York, when I was Oh man 23 I told my brother if I'm gonna send you a new batch of songs in six, seven months and um, you know, I like to start thinking about telling me to come back home right. So whether or not my friend is right, whether or not I have transcended setting or whatever he said, which I liked that he said that, um, whether or not that's true, we moved in his house a month ago and like I told you, I am 50,000 words into this rough draft. So to me that's like a really good sign. This is the first home I've ever bought in my life. I'm in my 40s now and so there's some I don't know the right word I there's some horror to like, oh my god, I like this is such a responsibility, all that stuff. But there's it's more like it's more like I'm just like, so like, like delighted are glad I'm like, oh my god, I own a house now, and it has a huge yard for our dogs and, and Alison and I are no longer, you know, month to month in this place where we're at for three and a half years and, and the area that we're in feels, I wouldn't say it feels like it's up north, but it feels like it's removed from the city. But meanwhile, we're only two miles from one of the busiest intersections you know, where all the highways meet in the area. So, so far, so good. I you know, I'm gonna obviously work on Mallory and all this. But I do think that, like, it was important to me to immediately bust out a novel here, it'd be like, Okay, this is a place that you can write. And the office that I'm talking to you in probably sounds a little cavernous, a little echoey, because it's mostly empty, and it's bigger and brighter, and there's four windows, than the last office I was in now, then the thing becomes not how good is it what you're working on, but something like that, right? You don't want like, like the next. So now you're we know you're still working. But how is the work? Like how are the ideas, this kind of thing. And honest to God, man, it feels exactly the same as if it was like a color form that was peeled off the other office and just placed into this one. I feel pretty much exactly the same. And I think that's a good, that's a good thing, rather than overwhelmed or distracted. I have here I am working on 50,000 deep. So let's go let's finish this one less work on Mallory, and then we're exactly where we were at before.

Michael David Wilson 6:34
Yeah, I mean, that's so awesome. And some people a month or so in would have barely finished unpacking. So for you to be 50,000 words deep into a project. And, you know, soon you'll be going over those extensive notes for Mallory. I mean, dream come true.

Josh Malerman 6:54
Yep. And but I also have not really unpacked yet.

Michael David Wilson 6:58
Okay, well, but I mean, I feel that writing is the priority anyway. And if you need if you need something that much, then you'll go rooting around in the box for it. And if not, well, I guess you know, you didn't need to unpack it just then. Right.

Josh Malerman 7:14
Exactly. That's how I feel too. This is this is priority. But if I'm missing something, I'll go freakin find it.

Michael David Wilson 7:19
We're good. All right. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 7:21
But it is, it is, you know, there's a little, I don't know the right word. It's like, I don't love the thing that makes me nervous about owning a house. And maybe it'd be the same if Allison I had a kid is that like, their I don't wanna say it's like a loss of youth, or innocence or something. But there was something about being like, sort of like a maverick who didn't own shit for 20 years and writing books wherever you go. And whenever there was, there was a certain romantic lilt to that, that I that I enjoyed, like that lack of responsibility, you know, yeah. So I so and I do, I find myself like, This is amazing. And I so happy to be here. But I do find myself like, Hey, don't, don't suddenly become like, you know, like, sedentary like, we can still be our crazy selves here. Just because we we can we can still write all over the walls, just because it's ours doesn't mean we have to stop doing that.

Michael David Wilson 8:16
Yeah, yeah. I guess when you move somewhere, and then you own it, you've got that stability and the stability as you say, it's both frightening. Yeah, and liberating. And I think maybe what can be most frightening is having something that is then permanent. And if you're a creative, creative, often late, often you're not used to permanence, you know, things are shifting and changing all the time. So to have that can be a little bit daunting. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 8:54
Allison and I. So there's a couple of things going on. One includes one of the books being shopped as a TV series, right. And if that come, if that happens, if it goes through, I would go to LA to be like the head writer of the show for six months, or whatever it is. And Allison and I have already talked about that, and how awesome that would be, just because we're both really big fans of new phases. And I feel like the same thing with the writing when you have like, this is the 30th book, and I don't I'm working on right now. Right? When you have that number of books, you start to see phases that you've gone through, and this is what we were talking before, about doing about two a year. I finished my first 115 years ago and here I am about to finish number 30. So that's about two a year now that it's so you know, dogmatic but but it's worked out that way. And so they're like there is a sense of like I'm what's the right like when a friend tells me I quit my job or I'm moving or this or that. I'm always really excited for them because I'm like, Oh, this is a new phase. Even if like friends that I thought were a good couple break up, it's like, I'm excited for them because this is a new phase for you guys like, and I think that that's obviously super fucking important in writing that, you know, I don't want to write, you know, like 30 sensory horror novels, you know, while Birdbox was sight, and now we got smell and now we got taste and oh shit. Now what do we do? We ran out of five, right?

Yeah.

So like, I don't want to, you know, you want like a whole new thing happening. And so I think naturally by if we did have a kid, um, or if we did move into a house, which we did I think that's going to naturally create a new phase. And that is freaking really exciting.

Michael David Wilson 10:42
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, this is something that I've been thinking about a lot recently, because me and my wife had our first kid. So she's now 15 months old. And so I think we're gonna be in London for quite a while. whereas before we were in Portugal, and then in Japan, and then went to London and back to Japan for a bit. I mean,

Josh Malerman 11:08
You are definitely someone who knows about different phases. Yeah, right. Yeah. I've been following you through the years. Oh, my God, I can't believe 15 months already, but that is nuts. To me. It's like, if you would have told me that. Um, it was she was four months old, I would have been like, Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, but yes, you definitely understand phases and like, and then that doesn't even mean that, um, that they, it's not like, it doesn't always have to be, quote, unquote, progress. It doesn't always have to be this phase was better than that phase is just, I think it's healthy, for a creative to shake shit up whether or not they feel like it's even time.

Michael David Wilson 11:49
say Yeah, and I mean, the way that I see things at the moment is living in London and being back in the UK, that is now our base. But it doesn't mean that we're necessarily staying permanently for the next 18 years, while our daughter grows up in the UK, it just means that maybe I could go and live in another country for two to three months, or I could spend the summer back in Japan, or maybe I'll go to Korea, maybe I'll spend some time over in America. So it it like you say it's a different phase. But it doesn't mean that you have to stop moving, it doesn't mean you have to settle down in a traditional on a boring way. You know, it doesn't have to be standard by any means. And I mean, I do miss Japan quite a lot. But I understand that that phase was great at the time, but it's no longer the best phase for me right now. And so the way that I'm going to combat that is, hopefully every year or every two years, I'll spend a summer in Japan. So then I'll scratch that Japan itch. And then I'll return back to the UK. And I mean, if you look at Elizabeth hand, she has a property that she lives in, in Maine. And then quite often, I think she's got an apartment in Camden in London. So you know, these ways that it can work for people that you can actually go between two locations, and then you actually get the best of everything? Can you know, that's what we want?

Josh Malerman 13:34
Yeah, we talk about, Allison and I talk about, well, like write a book, like, like spend a season in LA and write a book spend a season in Finland, Allison's 100% Finnish, spend a season in Finland and write a novel there like, so it doesn't have to necessarily for me feel like I'm see that the novels have always sort of rooted reality for me. If we just went to Finland for four to six months, I might just be like, What am I what are we doing? Like, I guess we're just living experiencing. But if I went there, and also knew while we were there, I was going to write a book. And it doesn't have to have anything to do with Finland, although maybe it would. I'm like, There's something really exciting. There's extra like motivation for me like, oh, not only are we going to experience Finland, but I'm going to write a book there. And I wonder what that will be like.

Michael David Wilson 14:24
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Bob Pastorella 14:27
You're talking about moving in, in change, and in going through different phases, and it just reminds me as we get older, some things that are that we should know, early on, become solidified. And one of them is that with the only constant is change. Yeah, that's a paradoxical statement.

Josh Malerman 14:56
Yeah, but that's it's a good thing to accept, to embrace to, especially if you're, I mean, look, I know that there's some writers that, you know, if you call yourself an artist or an author, like you're being pretentious, but I, I do consider us all artists I do, but I don't see artists as a stuffy thing. I see it as a really colorful, elastic, almost cartoonish thing. And so, if you're an artist, um, like the, what you're bringing up right now, I mean, dude, like, that's, that's, and again, that doesn't mean that the next book is about a man who buys a home like, oh, man, no one buy a home and, and he writes his new books that it doesn't have to literally reflect those changes what you're working on, like, you will just naturally change, and you're all peeked in a different way than you normally are. That stuff's like super valuable.

Bob Pastorella 15:49
right? It's on how you how you accept it, you have to acknowledge, accept, embrace, and those, those are things and I talked about that all the time. Because it's your attitude of how when change check, because change is going to affect you. You know, in you can you can perceive it as a negative thing, sometimes change is a negative thing, you have to adjust, you have to adapt, you may not embrace it, but you work through it. But there are some changes that are neutral. And you should you should recognize those, accept them for what they are, embrace them and find a positive way to, to incorporate them into your your life. So essentially, you change as well.

Josh Malerman 16:43
And you start then you start thinking you see this like chain of phases. You're like me, I had a good I guess I had a good time in high school. You know, I ran and made a lot of good friends was college. You know, was high school better than college? No. College was great for this. And then I moved to New York with my band, was that better than or was college better? You know, which one is? Well, I don't know which one was better? And then from there? Oh, you know, I started writing novels. Well, shit. Was that better than the than the band on tour? Well, maybe there. And then from there, got a book deal. Met Allison, all these and then it's like, which phase is better than which phase doesn't even matter? It's like, but they're dramatically different. If you allow them to be if you let them be, and I can't even imagine what like having a fucking kid would do. But that that would have to change everything.

Michael David Wilson 17:29
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think the problem with trying to worry, your quantify what phase is better done another that just means you're spending too much time worrying or thinking about the past when you seem to be living in that moment and enjoying the present stage, because the present stage is the only stage that we have right now. And so don't worry about trying to decide which is or isn't better, and what why do they even need to be why does something need to be better? It's just different. And, you know, think about what you're gaining from me. I mean, be it being a father, for example, yes, there are going to be more challenges, it's going to mean that I can't do certain things that I could or I can't write and dedicate all the hours that I could before, but then all of the positives and the joy and being able to watch my daughter grow up and learn things and develop every day. I mean, there's just no point in trying to quantify things because you've got different positives, you've got different challenges. And that's why life is interesting. It would be really, really boring if it was just stagnant.

Josh Malerman 18:44
And then also one way I think to ensure that you don't look at the past is to continue working like regularly. Yeah, if I hadn't written a novel in five years, oh, my God, I would be like, looking at myself from five years ago and be like longing to be that person again. Oh, my God, he was so inspired. Oh, my God, like he, you know, he was talking on This Is Horror about, like, how he writes two books a year, what happened to that guy, I would, so to ensure sort of, like not falling into that, you know, looking back and romanticizing the past would be to for an artist, or for an athlete or something that has someone who has like a life passion to keep doing that through those different phases. Yeah, it's almost like the fountain of youth, like writing novels is almost like the fountain of youth. Because you're, you're I'm doing the same thing I was doing or trying to do when I was 19. And I started being able to do when I was 29. Now it's been 15 years. And it's like, in a way you it's like a fountain of youth like you're still in love with and still passionately approaching this thing that you were approaching when you were 19. Right? You allowed different phases to happen and you allowed yourself to grow was an artist and this and then weave around and whatever. So you don't know if you don't feel like oh, here's another one, I'm going to just write another, you know, book, you know, you're like, excited to do a new fresh idea because we've sort of accepted these changes.

Michael David Wilson 20:12
Yeah. And here's the thing, if you do at some point thing, Oh, here's another book and you're feeling quite down and out, then what you do is you just move on, you do something different, you create something different, you find another art form, or you find something else that lights you up. I mean, when we were talking with Craig Davidson, he said, he'd never want to get to a point where he felt like, Okay, this is the best book that I can write, or get to a point where he felt that it was just stagnant, he was not really going anywhere. If he gets to that point, he'll do something else. And I mean, that's how I feel about anything that I do. If I ever think I've reached a pinnacle in terms of what I'm capable of in that art form, then, you know, that's okay, I can do something else now. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 21:05
you're right. I have a real fantasy to direct a movie. And one of the, and I've been talking to Ryan about this regularly. And we feel like this is, you know, a possibility. I've now written NICU screenplays. And obviously, I've worked with like, you know, teams in terms of like editors, and Ryan and me together and my band, all this in terms of, you know, now I don't wanna say being a band leader, or director, but in terms of that team sort of approach. And so Ryan and I are talking about maybe the first book I wrote would be a fun movie to direct because it would be a strange full circle thing for me to, that's the first book you wrote. And then 15 years later, it's the first movie you direct as well, or something. And that whole that idea, it's like what you're saying, I don't feel like I've reached some pinnacle in with novels. But still, like, dude, let's spend, you know, my God. Like, even if it takes a year, even if it takes longer like to, let's just see, aren't you curious? What that would be? Like? Yeah, you know, self and, you know, I mean, come on, you know, so, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 22:11
right. And I think it's also quite good to have different stages of your life and different periods where you're concentrating, or you're putting more energy into a different art form. So when I started, This Is Horror, I strained to publish a lot of books and editing a lot. And then I don't actually I want to see what podcasting is like. And then after podcasting for a long time, and getting to a point where I felt okay, I've proven myself in that area to be decent at podcasting, I don't, let's crank it up with the writing a little bit, dial back on the publishing and the editing. And now I'm getting to a point where it's like, Okay, so I've got the novella coming out, I just finished a novel novella, which is about 30,000 words. So I've got, I think I must have had about 12 short stories out this year, and I'm just kind of doing different things. And when I decide I've got to a stage where I'm feeling more comfortable, then it's like, what else can I add to this, and it doesn't mean that I stopped doing the editing or the writing or the podcasting or whatever, but it means that different things are a priority at different stages. And, you know, to the best of my knowledge, we have one life. So that's through as much as we can into it and do all the things that we want to do. Because I mean, those first few years of publishing, it was a challenge to myself. And I was asking myself whenever I could be a publisher whenever I could put out something decent. And then it got to a point where I thought Well, with This Is Horror, I certainly have done that. It's something that I'll continue to do, but I don't feel I need to prove it to myself, but I think it was in 2016. Even though I've been writing much of my life, I hadn't really been chopping things enough. I hadn't been getting things published. And I thought, Well, you say you're a writer, that's part of your identity. So prove it. Right. Get your work out there. And then since 2016, that's exactly what I've been doing. So as always writing but now, it's like, no, we're not playing around. We're gonna write a lot of things. We're gonna send it out.

Josh Malerman 24:40
I sometimes wonder what I would have done had that friend from high school not comment, of course, I wonder this, had that friend from high school not contacted me. And he's the one who sent Goblin out. And that's all led to Bird Box and all this, like, I don't know, because I had never shopped anything around and I was just writing and writing and writing and sort of blind Really delusionally believing it was all gonna work out. And then I don't know what I would have done if that dude never wrote man, I imagine I would have came to the same realization that you're describing right now where it was like, okay, like, here's you got to do this now, man. Like, like, as you've written all this stuff, but now you actually have to, you know, submit this stuff. And, yeah, oh,

Bob Pastorella 25:26
you have to do it, you have to change. I mean, I remember 10 years ago, talking to another writer. And we were talking about Kathy koja. And, and his what he said, it really kind of pissed me off. He's like, Man, I just wish he wouldn't. She wasn't doing the young adult stuff. I'm like, Have you read any of it? Right, right. No, well, no, then then then he goes walk because I don't I don't read them. Well, why wouldn't you read? Why wouldn't that read? You read those those kinds of stories when you were younger? And also, she can do whatever the hell she wants to do. Yeah, no shit. So people can Laird Barron because he you're like, well, he's right in crime now. Okay, he's writing. He's writing stories. So you know, that hasn't changed. You know,

Josh Malerman 26:20
in that writers defense. I said dumb shit when I was younger, you know, like, I remember. I remember saying to someone about like, Clive Barker, like, oh, he will turn to like, more fantasy stuff. Like, oh, like, that's bad. Or something like that. fucks with you judge. Like, in like I said, dumb shit like that, too. You know, where? Because I had some, some thought that like, you know, if you weren't writing horror, then you were turned your back on the genre or something. And yeah,

Bob Pastorella 26:51
you're upset shit like that, too. You know, as you get older, you have a wiser? Yeah, then didn't you have like what you're talking about? Like, can't you know you want to direct movie there's, you know, invariably, there's going to be someone that's like, well, you don't know how to do that. Yeah, that's like, Well, neither did our Eostre. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. Neither did Stanley Kubrick. Yeah, he really knows what they're doing until they do it. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 27:17
dude, no shit, right. And it's really amazing to me like, you go write a book. Hey, guess what, now you're a runner. And that's it. I mean, it. That's all it took was just fucking doing it. But it doesn't. It seems when you're on the outside of that looking in. It feels like it's a different breed of person that would make a movie, or like or like Kubrick descended from Mount Olympus with film. You know, it's like, oh, that's not what happened. He was a photographer who was interested in this and he just fucking he dove in. And he fucking did it, man.

Speaker 1 27:50
It's like, we have this. We have this thing that he was born fully formed. Yeah. Oh my god, that was a big baby. I mean, certainly going, Hey, um, I need, like, can you build me this black thing is really, really tall. And you, you perfect. I need you in makeup right now. Come on, let's go. We're rolling.

Josh Malerman 28:13
Right? Like his mom and dad are like, immediately like, you know, like, in his movie.

Bob Pastorella 28:19
We're so proud of him. He just he just started or at a very early age.

Josh Malerman 28:25
I know but that leap, that leave that there, we had to come up with a word for that or phrase that brave, leave that initial one. When you write that first book, you make that first movie, there's got to be a word for that. Because there's no coming back from that. Like you write that book. You wrote a book, you're right or not if you're in and there should be a word for that, you know, not in something well beyond diving board or platform. And there's a lot I'm going to think about that. You got to think about that to whoever things have been first of all, we'll try to coin it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 28:58
This is what happens when you just you just do it. Right. And that's you know, always reminds me what William golden Goldman said, you know, is when he wrote his book about Hollywood, the most profound thing about that is no one knows what they're doing and all that no one knows. Decisions are made without anything being known. And so if that's the case, in pretty much and if you think about it in art you think about in writing anything about in movies and television in anything creative. If the people who are where I run the business really not not to not to be say anything negative or anything like that, but if they don't know, then nothing would ever you know, unless you do things nothing would ever get done. You know, in that state, just do it. Just Nike just do it.

Josh Malerman 29:48
Well, it reminds me like me and the drummer of the high strung the two of us. When we were living in New York, we were like 23 and we we used to call this the myth of professionalism because we would be trying to find jobs. You'd go to go to a coffee shop or whatever. And they'd be like, Have you ever done this before? And you'd be like, um, yeah, even though you hadn't, and then they would still they would show you how it's done there anyway. So now you know how to do it. And then you get the job. You're all nervous that you don't know how to do this. And you've never done it before. And within like a month, you're the one everyone's asking for, like, Hey, Josh, where are the beans? Hey, Josh. And you're like, oh, that took like a month for me to be like running this place. There's like, a myth of like, professionalism out there. And that's exactly I have that book. I haven't read it yet. That Goldman book.

Speaker 1 30:40
I've read parts of it. But it's, you know, in here's the thing, there's a difference between trying to do something. And like what you're saying, the myth of professionalism. And there's even, you know, because my mom got her first job, basically, when she was, you know, a teenager by saying that she knew how to do something. And she didn't, and she, and she got called out on it. And but her heart thing was, you know, Hey, you don't, you know, they were like, Hey, I thought you said you need to do this job. And my mom's answer was needed to, you know, yeah. And it's like, and they're like, Well, okay, point taken. There's a difference between that and doing saying something specific. Case in point, not naming any names. One of my co workers got hired on the ability that he could speak Spanish. And at the end of the day, at the end of the time, it was discovered he could not on his career was neither can you see, you know, and it's, it's like, well, hold on a second. Now, that doesn't really worked that way. Lied. So there's a there's a big difference there. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 31:57
See, I quite liked the idea of fake it till you make it. But I do think there are some limitations. And if you can't speak a word of a language, you should probably shouldn't pretend you're fluent. That might be a little bit too ambitious. But I mean, I love I love the coffee shop idea. Because you can just say, Yeah, I'm totally good at that. But why don't you just show me how you do it here. And I'll kick that we're aligned. Oh, yeah. That's pretty much how I do it. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 32:29
Exactly how I do it, because it's the only way I've ever been shown how to do it. Yeah, no, I'm just like, you and you love me for it. It's like, it's yeah, we quickly learned that in New York. Like, nobody knows what the fuck they're doing, man. And like, we wouldn't be like, on, you know, we were on like, small record labels. And, and they were doing like, pretty well, though. And but then to like, we were like, they would you know, be asking us for advice. And we were like, Oh, shit. Wow, you because I think that there's this like, especially with novels, too. There's this assumption that like when your book gets picked up, like, it gets fed into this, like, super glistening professional machine, you know. And now all publicity is taken care of. And now all the best edits have been made. And now, and now you are on the shelf Forever, forever, forever, forever, you know? And it's like, no, like, Allison and I, when Bird Box first came out, we were like, wait a minute, we could be setting up our own book tour, we could be doing our own readings for these. We, you know, for this book, and, and you you don't really think about that going in. You're just kind of like, all right, it's in their hands now. Ooh. Now let's, you know, let's hang out and watch. And watch this beauty unfold. No, that's not how it goes.

Bob Pastorella 33:44
Yeah, it's amazing to see that any, especially the bigger the project, the more it arrives on time by the seat of its pants. There's people that's like, you know, hey, you were actually supposed to do this. And it's like, oh, yeah, you're right. I was, well, it's due. And then by the nick of time, things get handled, getting handled date, they may look on the surfaces, they were handled perfectly perfectly. And there could be someone sitting in a trailer somewhere crying their eyes out because they had to lie to someone to get it right. You know, so you don't ever see it. Unless you're so immersed in it, then then you know that, hey, you screwed up, but you fixed it. So you redeemed yourself, you know? Yeah, the bigger the project, the more likely it's going to arrive on time just in the nick of time by the seat of its pants. Yeah, yeah,

Josh Malerman 34:42
I totally know. You mean, man. I feel like I've been experiencing that with all these rewrites and like Malorie, ah, you know, I'm gonna get all those. I got those notes. You know, I have no concept right now. How long that's gonna take me it's just gonna take me three weeks it's gonna take me months. I have no concept. It And then that and that's kind of like, a little, that's daunting, isn't it? I'm not that I'm at that point with this book, you know, where it would be the same as when you're like, 50,000 deep writing it, that sort of like you're out to see. And you're like, um, how far into this? Am I? I don't really know for sure. That's, I feel like I'm that way with now. Because I thought three weeks ago, I was like, I think that's it. I think, I think yeah, they're gonna send back some, like some small things. But no, they have some, like, some big, you know, some big notes. So we'll see.

Bob Pastorella 35:32
He opened up that file and the ready just dripped down off the computer onto the desk. That's happened to me. My.

Josh Malerman 35:41
Yes, I know, man. And you know what, though, again, I don't mean to sound like noble by saying this, like, I welcome that shit, man. I do like I'm used to. I played in a band. I've been playing in a band for years where I bring the song, I wrote the song, and they do whatever they want with it. And they all have suggestions and this and that. It's similar in this way. It's similar. It's not the same. When I wrote the song Malorie, I bring in, the editor says, you know, Malorie and Tom, I like this, when they talked about this, can they talk about this more? And you're like, oh, okay, in a way, that's like repeating a riff in a song that I wouldn't do. And so I'm used, I'm very used to that kind of thing. It's not the collaborative level that Skipp works at, but it's totally, I'm open to like all of that. The only thing I do worry about, you know, because I, because I have like four other novels I want to write and blah, blah. So I, you know, I gotta be, I just want to make sure that I don't rush through it, that I give it to do that kind of thing.

Michael David Wilson 36:40
We've got a number of Patreon questions. So let's start with this one from Ryan Whitley. He would like to know, what is one horror story of any length that you'd like to see made into a movie that has not already been made into a movie? And who would you like to see in the cast?

Josh Malerman 37:06
Well, I'm, I'm like a big fan of this. I'm sort of I don't want to call it quiet or, or slow burn, because I feel like that undermines a lot of what's going on with like the witch and hag Azusa, you know, I don't know if you guys saw that went on shutter. Oh my god, it's so good. Um, so the book that I would love to see made into a movie is the Aloni. That Michael Hurley It's it's just unsettling underneath at all the whole freaking time. Man, I have no idea who would play the brothers. I don't I don't usually even think in terms of that. I would rather was probably just unknown awesome theater actors. Even with, even with Birdbox I was people would be like, Who do you see playing Mallory when it was picked up by Universal before Netflix and I was the man I have no idea. I don't know. So on that side of it, I don't know. But I would love to see that one made into a movie. And I also, I heard that, um, you know, Charlie Kaufman is doing that I'm thinking of ending things that Ian Reid. You guys read that book.

Unknown Speaker 38:10
I've heard of it, haven't read it.

Josh Malerman 38:12
It's good. It's unsettling. But his second book FFO really blew me away. And I would love to see like a movie of that one too. And now and also is singular setting a couple characters. Just as unnerving undercurrent you know, I was talking with Paul Tremblay at scares that care. And we were talking about how certain movies, it's okay. If certain things are unbelievable, or this doesn't follow the, you know, pattern of reality. What what really the hardest thing to pull off? Is that sort of just that undercurrent of of it being unsettling. And I think it follows totally well that off the which pull that off a lot of these modern movies, midsummer seems Zoo. Like, it's almost like the directors. And editors are like, keeping that sort of one note tension in mind the whole time, rather than rather than a series of jumpscares. Or like you're traveling through a haunted house and things are jumping out at you.

Speaker 1 39:13
Right, it's deliberate with the work they're doing. And yeah, there's a lot of synchronicity involved in that kind of stuff. Things just have to happen in a certain way. And a lot I know a lot of it is editing and I think it's, they're, they're in tune with it, and they see it and they, they like, Okay, how do we increase this? If you could find what it is and bottle it, then you know, that would be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But yeah, at the same time, as soon as you homogenize it like that, then it becomes ineffective.

Josh Malerman 39:47
Right, exactly. If every movie starts having the same Well, it's all got that that one, that singular now then we're going to be like fiending for something outlandish. Something that we will we will the monster jump out of a box at us and that might Be, that might be what's next, there might be a period following this one because, you know, I was talking with someone at scares that care about this as well. What is the next phase going to be a horror film and fiction because right now it does seem, again, I don't want to call it quiet because I that is not really what this is that's going on right now. But that's sort of that that 10 Bird Box falls into this to that sort of, like single note, like ding, ding, ding ding through the whole movie. You can play that one there the whole time. What's gonna come next, something outlandish, like, you know, return to the living dead, like the blob from the 80s. Like, is it going to be a really colorful elastic period that comes next? Or is it going to get even, like, smaller and more? No, no. Yeah, it's something that I don't know. I think about it often not, not that I'm concerned necessarily with being on the cusp of that. But I do think about it often. Like what is going to follow this, because if you look at music, punk follows Prague and, and Disco, disco follows punk, whatever, it always seemed Nirvana, like Nirvana and then follow like, really shiny production of the 80s. You know,

Bob Pastorella 41:14
It's cyclic.

Josh Malerman 41:17
So it's like, follow this sort of heightened tense, this heightened tension period, this undercurrent period, well, maybe it'll be really obvious and over the top, and maybe that sounds like a lot of fun already. To me right now.

Speaker 1 41:30
It's pizza horror. But no kidding.

Michael David Wilson 41:35
I wonder as well, with so much on demand television and movies. And we've as having so much entertainment more than we've ever had before. I wonder if we'll see less trends and more a case of anything goes. So I love that.

Josh Malerman 41:53
Yeah. And that in what you're saying, right there is definitely a product of the Internet age like, it's because there's room for everyone like there is there isn't like one singular style that's in there might be one that's sort of dominating the genre or that kind of thing. But you can see any you can, you know, branch out and experience any style from full chord splatter punk to to the most horrific hardcore, Jack Ketchum story to the goofiest one over here, right. And you can experience all of that, like it's all at your fingertips right now. So I think you're, what you just said is probably right, that maybe there isn't going to be like even a singular next step. But then there are things like Stranger Things brought in this, like, everything seems like it has to be the 80s. Right. So like, that's been going on? And, and like, that's kind of like, alright, alright, enough of that. Right. Yeah. But so there are like trends still, but I know it mean, I don't know if it's gonna be a singular Yang, that sort of takes charge.

Michael David Wilson 42:53
Yeah, I think that'll be more many trends. And in a way, everything you've just said, has confirmed that because Stranger Things, has started that mini trend with the 80s. And then hereditary and midsummer a quiet place, but barks, etc, etc, or a role in that very broad category of quiet horror? And so, I mean, also, I think we're seeing things that are more lingering and art house I mean, for sure, yes, so. So also with, like, smaller budgets as well, we're getting the complete opposite end, we're seeing more big movies and more, kind of, I guess, Splatterhouse splatter punk. I don't know what you'd call it. But there's so much there's almost a buffet. And when you've got shadow, which you mentioned earlier, now we've got not only have we got Netflix and Amazon, but we've got this specialist horror streaming surface. And that's going to mean more diversity in terms of story, topic and film subject matter. Because obviously, if you're just putting out horror, then you've got to make sure that they're not all playing the same tune or going along with the same note. And I think I mean, the interviews and conversations we're having here on This Is Horror. I'd say that that confirms that things are very much in an age where it's anything goes. So I mean, we're speaking to you now. We recently spoke with gamma files and Brian Keene, John F. de Taff, and Lauren Buca. So I mean, these are all people doing things that are very, very different from one another. And if you look at music and you look at heavy metal, I mean some of the biggest releases recently we've seen toe who are progressive metal very experimental, but then Slipknot who are new metal of arguably tore out the biggest album they've ever done in a decade. Then you've got Killswitch Engage who are more metal core, then you've got opare who combine prog and death metal and extreme metal and everything. It's doing really well. And it's a buffet and that there is not one big trend. And this is a very good thing.

Speaker 1 45:25
And one of the things that I've noticed that, because mainly because I've been doing a little bit of research on it is everything that's set up for like, what what happened, that made splatterpunk happen, is aligning again, it's like the stars are aligning. But at the same time, these things happen organically. I spent a whole weekend with some of the people who who started the spider pop genre. And there was a point that was made that was that that's so effective. Because when you you know now looking back at it, you know, what, what was it? What was a bunch of people who got together? No, they didn't know each other. It was archaic. And to know that, when you're in the back of your mind, you already knew you're like, Oh, of course it was organic. But when you actually define that there's a power there that you don't really that you never recognized.

Josh Malerman 46:23
For sure man that it's so interesting to look at it that way. Like, in you look through all like trends in art and history in it. Any like, this guy didn't know that guy was doing this to? No, they both just had a, it was almost like a natural reaction to what was going on what was sort of dominating, dominating the landscape. When we were at Scares That Care, you know, someone always brings up like, oh, who do you think the next Stephen King is? You know, and, and I was like, Man, I really, I think there's like, about 60 to 100 of us that make up the next Stephen King right now. I think there's like, then what you want what you're asking is, like, who's going to dominate this genre? Or song? And my answer that is, I think it's a group of like, 60 of us. And, and I love that, like, you are listing off all the names on the show, and you can I'm gonna My God, you could, how many more? Could you name Victor LaValle and Max and all these all these names, and, and like, but I think it's very exciting to be a part of that. I don't care how big the number, I don't care if there's 500 of us, whatever it is, you two included, we're all a part of this modern era of the genre. And like, there's something really awesome about that. And that there's no, there's no spotlight or pressure on one dude or one girl to like, you know, carry us? No, no, there's a million outlets. There's a million different styles. And there's a million of us. And let's all just Let's keep it that way. And let's roll. Yeah, let's do this variety. And let's, let's bounce off each other. Like I'm different than Victor. And that's good. And Victor is different than me and like, we go well together because of that. Yeah, I think that that's when you look at it that way. It becomes number one. It's less competitive, although there's always some of that in your mind somewhere, probably. But it's less competitive. And it's also just like, you realize that we're in the middle of like, a hell of a moment. And we talked about that in our short talk last time also.

Michael David Wilson 48:24
Yeah. And I think people will ask things like, Who's the next Stephen King? Because they want easy answers. But I mean, you can just say, well, I've got one better. How about instead of the next Stephen King, I present to you the first Josh Malerman the first Paul Tremblay, the personality evoking you know, you can go on and on and on.

Josh Malerman 48:48
Yep. And when you add us all together, it's almost like, I don't know, there's some Frankensteinian, you know, like, like thing that's running the genre right now. And and I think that is partly because of the internet age and how there is nothing. Nothing is necessarily like obscure anymore, of course, in a mass way it is. But if you're deep in the genre, like we are, we know the bestseller to the to the self published like equally. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 49:16
David 13 has a question. He says, I'm a complete Malermaniac, and enjoy both your major and small press books. After the well deserved success of Bird Box, will you be changing the rhythm you've been keeping the last while we have publishing two books a year with both big and small press? Also has the old way of approaching your writing change that.

Josh Malerman 49:46
Great question. The first half the second half is an easy answer. No, and that's been answered in this. In this podcasts already, were waiting for the notes on Mallory law lenses and That's just bizarre another one? And that's exactly let's, let's never use the no reason at all the front half of that. That's a little, that's a tough one to answer right now, because as you know, Del Rey has picked up a house at the bottom of Lake goblin on this the day of the pig and spinning black yarn, which is the short story collection that hasn't come out. In other words, they want to take the indie press releases, and go wide with them. So what does that mean in terms of the future, right? So they're gonna put out wide paperback releases of those three that came out. And two of them were limited editions. And you know what I mean? So what happens now, now I do, because I've really enjoyed, like the going back and forth between the big release Black Mad Wheel followed by Goblin a limited edition, Unburied Carol followed by Pig a limited edition. And I've, it's really been exciting for me, because, as you know, there are 23 other novels in this office that I, you know, to me, none of these are trunk novels, you know, those, to me, the trunk novels don't didn't make it I started some, you know, this one doesn't happen or whatever like that. So how I don't know yet, how that's gonna happen is obviously Del Rey has made a move that suggests that they want to thing wide. But if I realized when I'm with them that that means they want to do only one every 18 months or something, then I'm going to have to figure it out. One thing I'm thinking of doing is an 1100 page that was inspired by Taff's The Fearing, John knows all about this, and I actually asked permission to write this book. It's not the same idea or anything, but it was just entirely I was electrified by the Fearing. And I was like, I want to write a book that begins in a very similar way to his and I want it to be a big book, like yours is a big book. And, and him and I talked at length the books dedicated to him. When is that 1100 page book gonna come out? Oh, my God, who knows? Right? Malorie's coming up. I already have signed with Del Rey for the book or two following that. So what are we talking to a few years before them? It's yours and right. So I'm considering doing like a serialized audiobook of some of these. And the reason that makes a lot of sense, for me is because I already have this theatrical troupe with me. We call ourselves wild town, right? And we do all the readings. You know, Allison does all the effects and everyone plays roles. And we have a narrator, and we play characters. And I'm in a band, and we play scary music and this, so why not do like a serialized audiobook of that 1100 pager and release a book that way? So I don't know exactly how I'm going to or what form that back and forth is going to take from now on because I've also loved that back and forth for the last few years. And so but that is one way that I can see it working is is stepping outside of the printed world and doing like theatrical, you know, theatrical audio version of them.

Michael David Wilson 53:23
And that actually seems very cyclical, and comes back to what we were talking about before about your switching creativity and mediums in which you're working in.

Josh Malerman 53:36
Yeah, for me, and it's similar also, in a way to like, what we were talking about in terms of like directing a film. If I have 1100 pages, where I can, like, you know, Allison, will you play this part? And, and like, really give it like, like, here's how the guy talks or whatever. There's almost like a director mentality to doing what I'm talking about for this book, too. So, yeah, it's exactly what you're saying. It's similar to what we were talking about earlier.

Michael David Wilson 54:02
Well, we've got another question. This one is from Roger Venable. He says, Any plans to revise or edit your older novels you wrote prior to submitting your first to your lawyer? Or are you focusing mainly on writing and releasing newly written works to better align with your current abilities and interests?

Josh Malerman 54:26
No, I so I've written 30 Now Birdbox was number four. Okay. So, um, and inspect? Well, well, I'm trying to think I have one. I mean, I guess you can say this box was number four. Mallory was number 29. Right. So I'm working on number 30. Right now. So to me, like I was saying a moment ago, they're all I want them all to come out. Yeah. I want to rewrite and fix all of them. I have some sort of fantasy where, you know, like, like, is there any possible way to release for At once you're you know, I have these fantasies, I don't really know, I'm hoping that Ryan or I or Alison can come up with some breakthrough way to bring to get these out sooner, and all of them out. But then one way that I got one out, so I had written a novel called Dandy short for the lead characters named Dandelion. Dandy was about 70,000 words, I wrote it on a typewriter, and it had something to do with like a circus, kind of like the state fair. And then I was asked to be a part of an anthology for Cemetery Dance of stories that take place in circuses, state fairs, etc. And I asked them, can I get you like a 35,000? Word like novella? And they're like, Yeah, we would love that. And I was like, okay, so then I, I smashed dandy from 70 to 35. And I actually, I can't even I don't even understand how it could have gone 70. Now it seems to work exactly like as it is. Now. The point is, though, that was one way of getting one out. Also, you know, was finding like, okay, like, here's an outlet, they asked for a short story, maybe they'll accept like a long like, like a, like a pretty long novella. And they did. So okay, dandy is going to be out sooner than later. Um, so my plan is to eventually, yes, you know, rewrite every single one of them and get them out in some way or another. Because, again, there's really only one book out of the whole frickin batch. There's one book that I feel like I you know, I was really drunk when I wrote it. And so that one, that's, I wouldn't say it's a lemon. But that one, I could see rereading and being like, yeah, maybe not this one, right. But all the rest of them. I'm like, I'm 100% Trying to make them all happen. Yeah, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 56:49
And have you ever considered the possibility of independent or self publishing? Because I mean, I know that you're always looking at different ways to do things. And I know that your agent Kristen Nelson, has previously represented people who have been self published. I think Hugh Howey is probably a famous example. And I know that at one point, I'm not sure if it's still ongoing. But Christine actually had a self publishing service for people. So I mean, is that something you've considered? Is that something you might be able to do? Is that indeed something that you could strike with Delray so that then...

Josh Malerman 57:32
If I could figure out a way to do that in a in a more like, theatrical way? And I don't know what exactly what I mean by that? If I knew then then then we would, we would be there. Yeah. If there's a way to release it. Like, without it just being like, you know, I did the cover art, or we, you know, Allison did the cover art, and I edited the book, and then we put it out, like, now it's available online. Like, if there's a way to do it in a more, I don't know, you know, more than just theatrical like, sort of original way. And I don't know what the hell that means right? Now, if either of you. Or the person who asked the question, if either of you think of something if you have some, like, holy shit, revelation of I had 23 novels in my office, I might do that. And I might drop them from a helicopter, right? If you have any ideas, let me know. And

Michael David Wilson 58:25
can you imagine if you actually did that you found like the biggest book convention and you were like, I'm just gonna drop a single copy of all 23 of these books in the middle. And then you know, whoever catches it gets the read that limited. One and one. And it'd be a hell of a publicity stunt.

Josh Malerman 58:44
My friend James and I, we have talked at length about like writing and all of that we bury, like very, like in an in not in our own yard, someone else's yard or some other place. And like, just just just let's see what happens. Bury it somewhere that like there's a possibility it would be dug up.

Michael David Wilson 59:02
Yeah. What about if you bury it? And then you slowly release different clues. So it's some sort of mystery and, you know, hardcore Malermaniacs as they'd be in terms can try and figure it out. And I'm very the novel.

Josh Malerman 59:16
No, see, as silly as this sounds. This is more like what I'm talking about. Is there a way to make this like, like some, like thrilling or like, like an event? You know, I always I always, that's really what I mean. So far, is felt like every release either big five or independent press. Every release so far has felt eventful. And I would want to maintain that even if, even if that means just getting super creative. And like you said, even if that means dropping a book on a convention, like if there's a way to somehow maintain it being eventful, I'm game and I and if Del Rey was fine with it, then yeah, let's roll. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 59:56
yeah. So we got a question from Patrick Barb who says, with the forthcoming Mallory expanding the story of Birdbox? Were there any writers or stories series that you look to for inspiration, or potential pitfalls in terms of world building and world expanding with a horror franchise? If so, who are what were those sources of inspiration?

Josh Malerman 1:00:24
That's a great question. The one that I keep referring to, in my mind is, is really Thomas Harris and thinking about how Silence of the Lambs is like, mad the difference between Malorie and Birdbox is not the same difference between Red Dragon and tons of lambs, but, but I have kept in mind that it's okay for a book in that world to be like, loosely related or unrelated. In that way. Also, the key to me, for Malorie has been to, like I've always considered Bird Box to be a very small book, in setting in action in, in really everything about it's always felt very small to me. And I wanted to make sure with Malorie that it was either the same, you know, just as smaller, even smaller, like a day in the life of eight years later, rather than, you know, all of a sudden now there's military involvement. Malorie has rifles for arms, she can kill creatures with her eyes, right? You know? Like, let's let's shrink this even further, rather than accidentally like ballooning in this world and like totally ruining the whole vibe of it or something.

Michael David Wilson 1:01:42
All right. Well, Josh, thank you so much for chatting with us. It is always a pleasure. Always great chatting with you. And same to

Josh Malerman 1:01:52
you guys. And again, congrats again on the milestone. I know that this isn't that episode, but this is beyond that now. Um, congratulations again on that. I mean, it's, it's like really inspirational. Talking to you guys and what you've done and bolo is barking to let you know, she agrees. How are ya? Hey, buddy, okay. All

Michael David Wilson 1:02:13
right. Where can our listeners connect where you

Josh Malerman 1:02:18
just Facebook and, and I do have a website. But But I want to I don't take like updated enough. I want to put like a short story up there for free? Or maybe I'll put a novel on there soon.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:32
All right, do you have any final thoughts to leave people with?

Josh Malerman 1:02:37
Yeah, just in terms of like what we were talking before, not to sound like so inspirational, but to really aim for other writers especially to really embrace those different phases and to not, you know that that thing we were talking about before, it's not worry if this phase is better than the one before it so long as you're writing throughout each of these phases. I think that that's sort of like optimistic, most important thing you can do. So to me, walking away from this today's conversation that's like, that's what's like freshest on my mind.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:07
Definitely.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:14
Thank you so much for listening to Josh Malerman on This Is Horror. As I said at the start of the episode, if you haven't bought a house at the bottom of a lake, it is only on sale until the end of October. So pick up a copy ASAP. You know, get it in the next two weeks or regret it forever. Or, you know, just don't regret it because why? Why live in regret, but you don't have to pick it up house at the bottom of the lake. Next time we will be chatting with danger, Slater. And if you want to get that ahead of the crowd. If you want to listen right now, then support us on Patreon. Become a member of the hottest horror fiction membership site on the planet. Get access to the writers forum on Discord. Submit questions to each and every interviewee get story on box, the horror podcast on the craft of writing. Get q&a sessions, myself and Bob Pastorella. Get the video cast on camera off record, and much much more. And speaking of patrons, we'd like to thank our latest patrons for joining the family. So thank you to Jeff Haney Kitt Hallows, rollin three editing, Steven patience, and Thomas so in it, it's great to have your support. We appreciate the hell out of it. And now we are just made dollars away from $700. So, if you're on the edge if you're wondering about joining a family then it is a great time to get involved@www.patreon.com forward slash deaths is a horror. Okay before I wrap up a quick word from our sponsors,

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Michael David Wilson 1:06:21
remember, another way you can support us is to leave a review on Apple podcasts and we've now got over 100 ratings on Apple podcasts USA. So a big thank you to all of you that have taken the time to do that. And to people in the UK we all need to step it up because we don't have that many or len.co.uk It's in the URL you need to sorted out so please if you're a listener in the UK, drop us a rating and or a review on Apple podcasts and thank you so much in advance. Well as always, I would like to finish with a quote and this is from Carl Sagan books break the shackles of time proof that humans can work magic I'll see you in the next episode one we'll be chatting with dangerous later but until then take care yourselves be good to one another read horror keep on writing and have a great great day.