Michael David Wilson 00:00:28 Welcome to This Is Horror, a podcast for readers, writers, and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson and every episode alongside my co-host Bob. Pastorally, we chat with Masters of Horror about writing, life lessons, creativity, and much more. And today's guest is Josh Mellman. Now, we've been through a lot together. He first was on the podcast to discuss Bird Box. That was around the time of release. I remember it was my original co-host, Dan Haworth, who had told me about Bird Box and Josh Mellman, and I read it and was absolutely blown away by it. It's one of my favorite books, so it's an honor and a privilege to now call Josh a friend. Of course, if you listen back to that episode, it's pretty episode 100, but you'll be able to tell me and Josh and of course, Dan, we all get on really well right away. So. For completists so that this is our podcast, you might want to go back and listen to that one.

Michael David Wilson 00:01:43 But I mean, shortly following that conversation, I was speaking to Josh about whether we could collaborate, and so I asked him if he had anything that he might consider submitting for the This is Horror publishing novella line, and we worked together on a house at the bottom of a lake. And now fast forward a few years later and Joshua Elliman's film manager Ryan Lewis is also my film manager, and I'm also part of a group known as The Prolific, which we get into a little bit in this conversation. So a lot of personal history with Josh, and, I mean, the reason that we got together for this conversation is, of course, because of the release of Malorie, the sequel to Bird Box. And we do talk about that, although that will be coming up more in the second part. But in this conversation we talk about the idea of making it. We talk about how Josh has 14 stories in development for film and TV. We talk about his production company. We of course talk about the aforementioned Ryan Lewis and hey, much, much more.

Michael David Wilson 00:03:05 But as always, before any of that, a quick word from our sponsors.

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Michael David Wilson 00:04:10 All right, with that said, here it is. That is the conversation with Josh Millman on This Is Horror. Said yes. Welcome back to This Is Horror. We were last speaking to you in episode 300, which already is over 50 episodes ago, so I think we must be turning out these episodes pretty quickly to be that far along.

Josh Malerman 00:04:41 That is really crazy, because when what? What's the date on that? I'm the number 300.

Michael David Wilson 00:04:47 So I think it was sometime last year. I think it was. Was it maybe about September or so? So it's not even been a year yet. And we've. We've cranked out over 50 more.

Josh Malerman 00:05:01 It is not even close to a year yet. And you have so. Is that normal? Do you do about 65 years, 60 a year, or is it all over the place?

Michael David Wilson 00:05:11 So I mean, the way the standard way that we do it is we guarantee at least one episode per week. But then you may have noticed that I'll have these kind of mad creative drives where I'm normally trying to increase our Patreon, and I'm like, right, if we hit X amount of patrons, then we're putting out two episodes per week for the next two months, and then that happens and I have to actually do it. So I think that is that is what's happened. I mean, at the moment I'm back in Japan and as well as doing the writing and this is horror and all of that, I'm also teaching full time.

Michael David Wilson 00:05:57 So I think because of that, the pace is invariably slowing down a little bit. But then with the teaching as well, we have like the these various vacations, I've got the whole of August stuff, so there could be a two episodes per week stint coming in the not too distant future.

Josh Malerman 00:06:18 Wow, you're back in Japan. And, I was traveling. Weird. Bizarre with all this stuff or. No, what was. I mean, if you don't want to go, go into it, don't. But was it pretty wild?

Michael David Wilson 00:06:30 Well, I mean that that's been a few complications, so I, I got into Japan with about 18 hours to go until they were saying no British citizens are allowed to be in Japan. They they banned British citizens because of Covid 19. And originally that was till the end of April, but then they extended it till the end of May. Then the end of June, and I'm kind of expecting them to extend it until at least the end of July, because I think if they were going to lift it, they would have been talking about that now.

Michael David Wilson 00:07:15 And the only thing they've been talking about is letting people in and easing restrictions from Australia, New Zealand, Thailand and Vietnam because those are four countries that seem to really have it under wraps at the moment. But then the personal complication for me is the way that the visa works is traditionally the person with the main job will come in first and then a few weeks later, the other members of the family will come in. But because they decided that British citizens couldn't come in, it means that at the moment I'm in Japan and my wife and daughter are still in the UK, so that is not an ideal situation. But of course with with technology and things. We've been speaking every day. And I mean, I've said this to a few people before, but the good thing is that we anticipated that that might happen. I mean, I think with with Covid, all bets are off. You didn't know, you know what what complications there would be. So I think if I hadn't anticipated it, if we hadn't anticipated it, it would be a lot more difficult.

Michael David Wilson 00:08:38 But I mean, I, I tried to be very rational about things and logical and, I mean, I said to my wife at this point, you know, we, we're separated in terms of being a continent away. We can't do anything to alter that. Whether we choose to be happy or we choose to be sad. The reality isn't going to change. So we're choosing to be happy with choosing to get on with things as best as we can. And I mean that. That's working out pretty well. Of course we miss each other. Of course we want to be reunited. But this is a global pandemic. There's nothing that can be done, and hopefully soon we'll be back together.

Josh Malerman 00:09:29 There is this sense that, like, well, I mean, obviously that whatever's happening is bigger than, you know, bigger than my what I want. What my happiness, this kind of thing, my comfort. Like. And it's and it's, it's real easy to sort of, you know, forget or to think for a second that you're the only one going through this.

Josh Malerman 00:09:49 Right. And you see, you're like, I'm losing my mind here at home or whatever. And then I hear your story. I'm like, My God, this dude is split up from his wife and daughter, and I'm complaining about, like, being in my office and yard, like, shut up, you know? And then if I really think about what, you know, what has been canceled or whatever. I was supposed to go to, San Diego Comic-Con. there was one in Seattle, and, Alice and I were going to Hawaii, which that sounds insane to say out loud, but we were supposed to go there and we. That was canceled. And then the reading for Mallory, the, as you guys know, we do theatrical readings for all of the for every book release. And this one was, oh my God, it was so set up, dude. Dudes. And and it got we had to cancel it. And it was so incredible that Detroit Zoo has a train that goes around it, you know, for like, kids, really? And we got access to that train.

Josh Malerman 00:10:50 We were gonna blindfold everyone. Everyone rides the train. We narrate the book through, like the PA speakers of the train and the train stops at, you know, at stations where we would have, you know, scenes acting out or acted out for the people, live music, scary music as scenes are played out. Just so much awesome stuff. I was flying Rue Morgue in for the for the event to just to experience it. I was like, you guys don't even need to write about it or not. I want you to be a part of this. that was planned. So for me, though. Okay, so the biggest thing is, all right, you missed a few conventions and and, you know, a spectacular reading is let's just say it's put on hold, and it's exactly what you said. and you obviously, you can apply this to any walk of life, right? This is happening either way. You could choose to be happy or distressed. and you can be both and and and then, you know, that's really like it's almost like forced perspective right now.

Josh Malerman 00:11:51 Right? Because you almost like go out of your mind without it. And so I'm, I'm in a similar boat as you, but I'm not separated from a child. But I am, but I am, consciously deciding to be as bright as possible in this scenario.

Michael David Wilson 00:12:07 Yeah. And I think you saying you can be both is important as well. So just because I'm choosing to be happy, it doesn't mean that I'm not allowing myself to have moments where where I'm sad or frustrated at the situation. And I think anything where you're trying to force or suppress an emotion is going to be dangerous. So, you know, you feel what you need to feel. And I think as well. I mean, you say that like, obviously you hear about my situation and then think, oh shit, that one's pretty rough too. But then I could hear about someone who who maybe their partner is on life support because of Covid. And so then that makes my situation look tame in comparison. And I think really I mean, the idea is try not to compare your situation too much to anyone else's, because you'll always find someone who it looks like they have it worse than you and it, and also someone who it looks like they have it better than you.

Michael David Wilson 00:13:16 And just because someone has a worse situation, it doesn't mean that you're not allowed to feel frustrated or or sad or angry about your own. And of course, the great thing is, as I'm saying this, we can apply this immediately to the creative pursuit and to to writing. I mean, if if we were to always compare our writing and our success to to someone else, then we could be in a permanent state of depression, because you'll always find someone who who's a little bit further along, or doing a little bit better than you, or you feel their writings better, or you feel they're getting more money, or they're getting more film deals or whatever metric you want to measure it by. So just be concerned with yourself and and getting better.

Josh Malerman 00:14:08 I was just talking today to Ryan. You know, I let the audience. Ryan. Ryan Lewis is my manager. He's extraordinary. he, we were talking earlier to say that the only. And I've always felt this way, the only make the only quote unquote making it is actually making the work of art.

And if that sounds. Oh, my God. So trying to be so noble, altruistic. It's true. It's like, you know, there were 20 years or so of writing, I don't want to say in a vacuum, because I was surrounded by, like, the craziest bunch of awesome freaks in the world while I was writing all this stuff. But like 20 years of not having a book deal and this and that and the rough drafts are starting to stack taller than I am. And all this and I there was never this sense of, am I ever going to make it? It was never that sense. There was this sort of delusional, voice that always said yes to that. That sort of like, like it's going to work out, like, don't worry, it's going to work out. But never a sense of, like, I have to make it. It's like, oh my gosh. You know, to me it's like and anyone who has a book published and now I have a book on the, New York Times bestseller list.

Josh Malerman 00:15:17 Well, Bird Box not meaning right now, but I've had one and a hit movie with Bird Box and there's. I'm here to tell you there's nothing better than finishing the writing of the book. Nothing. Nothing will ever beat that. And when people write that online and they're like, you know, there's no feeling like it there, dude, there really is no feeling like it. Including any success that may happen beyond the book. And so to me, it's literally making it is literally making it like writing it. doing it, drawing it. You know, if you want to be an artist, you got to make work works of art. Right.

Bob Pastorella 00:15:52 Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 00:15:52 And it's interesting how with the kind of wider perception and this is something that I've been thinking about because there is interest in the girl in the video and possibly making that into a movie. But it's really interesting. How. Go on. Sorry.

Josh Malerman 00:16:12 No, I know all about that is it's just awesome. I'm so excited, you know, to because, you know, Ryan and I talked daily and to hear like that side of the interest and, and the buzz that your book is creating.

Josh Malerman 00:16:24 Dude, it's really exciting.

Michael David Wilson 00:16:26 Yeah. And in fact, now that you've said that, I'm going to interrupt my own thought with another thought and this is probably the direction that our conversation is going to go anyway, because there's always so much energy, and we're not only interrupting each other, but we're interrupting ourselves. But as you mentioned, Ryan, and what's going on with the girl in the video, I mean, whilst we have we had, you know, the coronavirus pandemic and that's still ongoing. And I was separated from my wife and daughter. It was really bizarre because I also had the launch of the girl in the video, and that's just been amazing. I mean, for a debut novella, not even a novel, and with an independent publisher, it's gained so much buzz and so much kind of accolades. And, I mean, I have to thank you for, first of all, for providing me with an advanced quote. I know that, funnily enough, I first spoke to you about that Off the Air after episode 300.

Michael David Wilson 00:17:33 So I feel all these things kind of have some sort of symmetry or a poetry. And you said, yeah, you check out the book, you did, you liked it, you provided that blurb. So obviously that got people excited. But then I got a couple of film producers interested in things. And so I was speaking to Max and speaking to you, and then suddenly, right, Ryan Lewis, he's like, okay, I'll call Michael, we'll have a chat. We spoke for over an hour, which was kind of insane because like Max had said, he first spoke to him for ten minutes or so, but we just hit it off and we had so much to talk about. And then a few days later, Ryan is my film manager. So like a lot of the good things that have happened with the girl in the video, you've played a part. And I mean a lot of people have spoken before about people who, who, who do things altruistically and, and for absolutely no gain to them, for themselves.

Michael David Wilson 00:18:44 And this is what you've been doing, not just with me, but with Max and with countless others and with Sarah Reid. And so I just want to thank you for having such an impact and helping make this weird fucking time, this weird pandemic, a little bit brighter for me.

Josh Malerman 00:19:06 That I can't do right on. You know, it's, Yeah. Wow. Okay. you know, and it got him, like, kind of like, choked up with words because that was. That's just really good to hear. Okay. Let's just talk about Ryan for a minute here. This guy, I meet this guy 12 years ago. I'm, at the time the brokers have ever been. I'm stoned. The first time I talked to him on the phone. Yeah, and I don't grasp that often. And that day, I happen to. And he calls and he's talking to me about being a manager and all this. And I was like, so scared.

Josh Malerman 00:19:46 Like, I didn't even know what these words meant, you know? And I'm like, and he's my age, so, so we're about the same age. And he definitely seemed warm and smart and cool and all this. And again, I'm Stone though, and I'm like, what does this mean? And then what do you mean you want to manage me? Well, like I don't even know what this means, right. And then we get off the phone and there I was with a bunch of friends because we all kind of lived in a flophouse. And I go back in and I had this sort of moment of like, just abject horror, this wave, this rush of like, am I ready for whatever comes next? Because talking to this guy felt like something was coming next. And not in a Hollywood like, you know, huckster way, not in a name dropping way. It sounded like it sounded like I had met someone with a similar worldview and work ethic that I have but he, had access to doors. I couldn't even, you know, I didn't even know that what building they were in. Right. And so I remember, like, literally sitting on this front porch and then in this house, like, just truly scared, like, are you ready for what? And then at the high wore off and I was like, yeah, dude, shut up. This is all great. And then so through the years, Ryan kept saying, listen, I'm, I'm telling you, I'm going to get Bird Box. picked up the second that you get a book deal. And he kept saying it. And maybe I've told you guys this story before, but it's just worth repeating. Because of Ryan really? And he kept saying, I'm going to get this picked up by film. And and I had no real reason to believe him. I think I was his first novelist. He had never exactly done this before. Anyway, Bird Box gets picked up by Harper Collins and like four months later, Ryan had it, option by Universal.

Josh Malerman 00:21:38 And I had just spent three years with him three years before that happened of just just blind faith that that this dude was going to do this because there's a bedside manner to everything and Ryan's bedside manner to managing and to meetings and his ideas, and his nose is just freaking smart. It's direct. It's, level headed. And again, no name dropping or giant numbers. It's just all very like, why can't we do this? And me too. You're right. Why can't we do this? So this leads to nowadays at some point after Bird Box the movie, Ryan said, hey, I think that we should start thinking of ourselves as a production company, Spin A Black Yarn, and let's actually look, you know, for other people's stories, because we were starting to get we were starting to get, a number of my books in short stories like placed, optioned and that kind of thing. Right. And so then he was like, let's try this with other people.

Josh Malerman 00:22:45 And then he started working with Richard Chizmar and Lindsay Barlow and Laura Lee Bahr and, and starting to get like, results with them. And then you, Max. Jonathan Janz. And it's like, all of a sudden, Ryan who I, you know, when I met him, I was his first novelist. And him and I, it feels like him. And I took peyote in the desert for three years. That's how it feels to me now.

Josh Malerman 00:23:14 You know, it's like this wonderfully idealistic and. And why not? Period that we had and still are having but to now have. I don't want to say that he has a stable that sounds funny, but but the people that he is working with you Jans max me. It's just like, I don't know man. They all sort of reflect him in a weird way. Smart, hardworking, usually prolific, men and women filled with ideas open to, a blockbuster movie path or the smallest indie path imaginable. Just open minded creatives, or as I like to now use as a noun, prolific S Ryan works with a lot of prolific s and and like minded modern men and women and yeah, dude, he he's suddenly become like like this awesome horror manager.

Bob Pastorella 00:24:10 Yeah, I still can't get that image out of my head. When you said when you said meeting in the desert. And remind me that scene from A Domino when Tom waits shows up just like out of the blue and, And gives a what's her name, Keira Knightley to the coin. And, I just had this vision of you and and all these people tripping on peyote in the desert, like listening to the kids, you know, and just, like, just just getting just, like, tripping. And I was like, I can't get that image out of my head. But it's so cool because you get, like, this feeling. You said prolific, but it's almost like a tribe. It's like really, really cool.

Josh Malerman 00:24:54 Yeah, it really is, man. And he's constantly asking me about, you know, other people. And in fact, he's kind of, stopped asking me because now he's discovering just on his own. He's like on Twitter looking up, you know, new releases, novellas, novels, looking into authors and this kind of stuff.

Josh Malerman 00:25:15 And he'll bring up people to me and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know her, you know, that kind of. And I'm like, how do you do? He's like, oh, you know, I discovered her through this path. Whatever. whatever. And so yeah, it's been amazing. And I it's like, I have this, I cannot wait. And my gosh, I, I hope this happens, but I cannot wait until, you know, girl in the video, let's say it's like a movie and we're and we all go to the premiere party together. Ryan, you, me, you know, I just, I don't know, I fantasize about that moment of just like all of us, like having a drink over, like your movie, you know, something like that.

Michael David Wilson 00:25:49 Yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:25:49 Yeah, man. That would be like an apex life moment right there for everybody involved, right?

Michael David Wilson 00:25:57 Yeah. And you've gotta come to Bob, and we gotta get Max, and we gotta get jams.

Michael David Wilson 00:26:01 We gotta get all these people. They're all amazing people.

Bob Pastorella 00:26:05 And the politics, the trial. Yeah. Yes.

Josh Malerman 00:26:08 I would love to set up some sort of. Oh, I say retreat. We could all just sit around and do nothing but but something where everyone that's working with Ryan, we all hang out somehow for a weekend, and I don't know what that means. I'm gonna look into that and I'm going to think about that. And obviously that's not going to happen anytime soon. But I think that that could be really fun. Jonathan Janz drove up here from Indiana. I think he's about 4.5 hours away. And he drove up the night that we hosted the brilliant, paranormal investigator John Tenney. I don't know if you guys know John. Oh, my God. He gave a lecture at our house. Alison and I hosted him. Everyone got everyone maybe got too drunk and stoned. And I would like to do it again. Where we stay a little more in check until he's done.

Josh Malerman 00:26:55 But the lecture was absolutely mind blowing. And Jonathan Janz came to it. He he drove the 4.5 hours, showed up in my house and and Jon Tenney and read his books and known him and and Jonathan was excited about ten his lecture and there was like 60 people here and everyone's drinking and smoking and we're talking about ghosts and UFOs and, and and I'm like, I want to do that again. And I want, you know, all, all like you and Max and Lindsey and everyone, to come over and let's make a freaking, like, Ryan Lewis party.

Michael David Wilson 00:27:24 Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. And I mean, talking about films and development, I know there's not too much you can say, but you said a couple of days ago that you now have 14 of your novels or stories in development for film and TV, and I mean that that is something that's amazing and something where you've got to take your own advice. And one of the great things you said to me was, you know, when you get some good film news or any good news.

Michael David Wilson 00:28:02 Be excited now because then if it actually is made into a film, you get to be excited twice.

Josh Malerman 00:28:12 Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. You said it better, I feel like. But I did say that to you. You're right, I did. I did write you that. But I would like to I would like to take a little clip of what you just said and then, like, post it in, like, my room somewhere, and I can play. Yeah, yeah. So, like, I, you know, it's almost maddening when good news comes in about a book and you're not allowed to talk about it. Not maddening because you're some ungrateful lunatic who needs his ego stroked, but just maddening because it's like, so exciting. And, you know, it would help the book and, you know, a million things. You're just like, oh my God. But then it is turned into like a whole sort of slew of, projects where Ryan and I are like, agree early on.

Josh Malerman 00:29:03 Like, yeah, no, no, no, if you don't want us to talk about it, we won't, you know, and just recently Ryan said to me, he's like, we gotta stop being so nice about that part of it. Like, he's like, for now on, we gotta just be like, hey, yeah, we're gonna just do this, you know? We're sorry, or we're gonna leak it somehow, right? You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. But then some of them, I'm trying to think how many? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Like 8 or 9 of them. The scripts I've already read. And. Yeah. And some of them are. Well, you know, that Black Man Wheel I have posted about that one and I posted that I printed up the script written by Barnett Brettler, and he sent in the original script was like 190 pages or something, and it's one of the greatest things I've ever read.

Josh Malerman 00:29:56 Guys, I, I knew they were going to make him rewrite it. And by the way, I'm a producer on it. So when I say they, I guess that means me. But there's no way in hell I'm gonna ever tell someone, you know, you should chop this down. No way. I wanted 50 more pages.

Josh Malerman 00:30:12 But I knew that the others. I knew the others were going to, ask him to chop it down. So I printed it out. And it's the only other thing I keep with my rough drafts, with all the stuff that I wrote in these crates, these crazy looking crates in my office. Is that Barnett Brettler script because it was so freaking good, guys. And I was like, dude, I called him up and he's a really interesting guy. He's young, super intelligent. I got hammered with him in LA last time I was out there. and, and he just wrote this mammoth, just epic script in this sort of grand Spielberg way.

Josh Malerman 00:30:52 And I was like, if you can imagine that version of Black Man, we are just like a sort of like epic adventure with, with horror, like underlying tones of horror, you know? And I was like, oh my God, this is this is it. And so that script is, has been rewritten and is out in the world and blah, blah, blah stuff, you know, we'll see what, what comes of it. But that's, that's kind of like the only one that I can even freakin talk about.

Michael David Wilson 00:31:17 Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll tell you something of yours that I was really excited about, which you absolutely can talk about. And I mean, as much as I was excited for Bird Box when I saw that you were working and I might, I might pronounce his name wrong. But with Skye Elba, who was in Greasy Strangler, and Beverly Luff Linn, like, I lost my mind because I love that guy. I think he's such an amazing actor. So I think it was a short story of yours.

Josh Malerman 00:31:51 And so James Henry Hall is the director, and he, Him and I love the Greasy Strangler. It's like one of the craziest things you've ever seen.

Michael David Wilson 00:32:01 It's so quotable as well. There are so many moments in that film.

Josh Malerman 00:32:07 And James was like, hey, can I make a short out of, Ben Evans film, your short story? And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, do we have to even go? I'm like, no, just do it sounds great. And he was like, who should we get to play Ben Evans on my oh no. And then he's like, what if I wrote Sky Alabama, you know, from The Greasy Strangler? And I was like, dude, that would be the I mean, that would be like, like a coup or something if you pulled that off, you know? So he, he wrote him directly, talk to him on the phone, and and Sky agreed. Sky comes to Michigan. James and this brilliant cinematographer. Oh there's there's two directors, James and James's uncle Brett.

Josh Malerman 00:32:43 and this great cinematographer, John Beavers. And Sky. Alabama's here in Michigan. And they're filming Ben Evans film. And I'm on set and I'm like, this is so crazy. And it was such a great experience. And then afterwards everyone came to my house, like during the, I guess you would say, the wrap party sky came over and he's like a wine connoisseur and I didn't know that. How could I own that? And he was like, we got this bottle of wine for him. And and we all hung out. It was amazing night. and then at some point after that, it was like, we need to now shop this short, as a feature. And so that is going on with A Ben Evans Film that James, me, Ryan, Sky and Brett are trying to get a feature made of that short man.

Michael David Wilson 00:33:30 I really, really hope that that comes together. I mean, as you and Ryan would say, Marty Feldman, which is going to be very weird for the listeners wondering what the fuck I'm talking about.

Michael David Wilson 00:33:43 It's gonna be weird for Bob, but we'll just leave it at that.

Josh Malerman 00:33:48 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. yeah. Sorry.

Josh Malerman 00:33:51 It's our secret code for good luck. Hey, hey, you should, Oh, my God, both my dogs are, like, trying to climb on me suddenly. Well, that's fine. Let them. Let them.

Josh Malerman 00:34:00 Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 00:34:01 They're just getting excited by all these developments. They couldn't contain themselves. But I mean. I mean, with your production company, Spin A Black Yarn is there anything you can tell us about that? Obviously you've told us a little bit about how it came about, but what about in terms of some of the films that you're looking to produce?

Josh Malerman 00:34:25 Well, you know, it's interesting that you ask that because recently we were asked in a phone call like, what exactly are you looking for? Because, it seems to me that I put all because almost everything I read, I'm like, dude, this this should be a movie.

Josh Malerman 00:34:43 This could be a movie. This, you know, and you know, so at some point, Ryan's like, you say that about everything, but but I believe that about anything. And so it's kind of become he's he's more of the I guess it's sort of more the final word on that front. If he's like, no, yeah I can shop this then there we go. So then but there doesn't really seem to be a underlying unifier between all of them. Right. The girl In The Video, Bird Box, Black Mad Wheel, we all I don't I don't know if there's like, you know, I don't know if it's lack of brutality or it's a slow burn or not or these things. And Ryan. Ryan, if he was on here, which, by the way, I don't know if he would ever do that, but have you considered interviewing him or is that just crazy? God, he might He might freak out if he had to do something like this.

Michael David Wilson 00:35:30 We can chat with Ryan.

Michael David Wilson 00:35:32 I mean, we probably. We probably shouldn't add him impromptu to the call right now. That might be a little bit harsh, but we should. We should definitely do it at some time. I mean, like I said, the first time we spoke, we just fucking spoke for an hour. So to have that kind of chemistry and to be able to do that, like it's going to be absolutely no issue chatting with him for the podcast. It will just be a matter of whether that's something he wants to do. But yeah, I actually talked to him about it because I think as well. I mean, we spoke to to Christine a number of years ago now. And so these are people who you don't always hear from, you know, a film manager. That's a pretty unique perspective. We haven't had that on this story. So yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:36:22 That would be super interesting I think for listeners. Exactly. Because like if I heard, you know, that, you know, Victor LaValle's manager or whatever was on, I would be like, oh, I'm gonna what, what what are they going to talk about? That's got to be different, you know? Yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:36:37 So like that. Yeah. That's definitely. Anyway, so I don't really, you know, with Ryan, it seems like I don't really know exactly what it is, but whatever it is, it seems to sing to him right away when he reads something. And I don't know if he's looking for, you know, something that's cinema-ready cinematic immediately. Because it doesn't seem like he's, Again, he's a it's not like he's afraid of a slow burn. I do know that neither of us are like fully attracted to something that's maybe brutality first or hyper realistic brutality. Right?

Josh Malerman 00:37:13 Of a man or woman being held prisoner and tortured forever. I don't, I don't know if something along those like that might be like, oh, I don't know, maybe, maybe it depends on how it's done. Right. I don't know if we would. In other words, I think we're probably less The Girl Next Door and more and more The Girl In The Video.

Michael David Wilson 00:37:36 Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. I mean, up until that point, I was gonna say it seems like, you know, its story first and its characters first, but then the moment you said you're not the girl next door, it's like, well, there's a hell of a lot of characterization and a good story in that one. I mean, Dallas, I know.

Josh Malerman 00:37:59 That's why I was hesitant to rule that out, to be honest with you, because it's like, actually, yeah, no, that can be amazing. And we all know that. So yeah.

Michael David Wilson 00:38:07 Did make a film out of it. It was pretty good. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:38:11 Did you I never I haven't seen that. I don't, I don't even know if I could bring myself to watch it. That book. I handed that book to my friend James, who made a Ben Evans film.

Josh Malerman 00:38:20 And he he read it and handed it back to me, pinched between his forefinger and thumb as if he was handing back like a, you know, like like a diseased rag or something. He handed it back to me, like, oh, here you go. Thanks for letting me this.

Michael David Wilson 00:38:35 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that might have been the first book that that I read where at the end, I just kind of broke down in tears because it's such a fucking emotional ride. And, I mean, it's based off a real life case as well, and it's so unrelenting. And, you know, you're looking for that, that light. And I mean, I, don't even know what what to say in terms of it's weird whether to give spoilers to something that actually happened. So then it doesn't even become a spoiler. But let's say, you know, it's unrelenting and you're looking for that light and maybe there isn't a light. It's it's a very traumatic journey. And I mean, in lesser hands than than Dallas Mayr and Jack Ketchum.

Michael David Wilson 00:39:31 It just wouldn't have worked or it would have seemed gratuitous or insensitive. But I think, you know, he he absolutely had the chops to do that. And it's, it's one of the best novels within genre. But it, it sure as fuck is not comfortable. I mean, Well, we spoke about maybe trigger warnings or content warnings. It's like if ever you needed, just like a warning on the front of a book. It's that one right there. I can't think of of many that are more brutal.

Josh Malerman 00:40:08 And it's like.

Josh Malerman 00:40:09 40 years old or something. And it's still like that. It's like that book, man, that would be the equivalent, right? They didn't come out in like 80, something like that. Right.

Michael David Wilson 00:40:18 I'm trying to remember because there are two books that are based on the same case, because there's also one by Mendel Johnson. I think it's called Let's Go Play at the Adams. And so I think that one came out the same year as Carrie, which I'm wondering what was that, 78 or something like that? And then The Girl Next Door came out a few years later, but then let's go play at the Adams was was largely unknown, and it was only recently, in fact, that more people started to to to become aware of it.

Bob Pastorella 00:41:02 It was a Paperback From Hell.

Michael David Wilson 00:41:03 Yeah. Because I found out about. Let's go play at the Adams I guess in about 2010, 2011, because I was speaking to the British horror author Joseph D'Lacey, and I was telling him how the girl next door was one of, you know, the best but most brutal novels I've read. And he was like, oh, you need to check out Let's Go Play at the Adams. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I definitely will. And he's like, no, you don't understand. So he he just gave me a copy of the book. He's like, you need to read it now. so so I did and I mean, that was very well done. But I would say that I think for me, Jackson's The Girl Next Door was more effective, but then it's difficult to know. Was it more effective because I experienced it for the first time, you know, and like, experienced that case for the first time.

Michael David Wilson 00:42:04 It's it's difficult to know. But I did feel that the girl next door seemed less dated and more, more in the moment, whereas there were a few things about Mendel Johnson's book that seemed, you know, a little bit old and didn't stand up so well. and as I've been saying all that the girl Next door was 1989, so. Wow. I guess there was about a decade between them.

Josh Malerman 00:42:31 No way.

Josh Malerman 00:42:33 Can't be 89. The girl next door. No no no no. It's gotta be like, no. Hold on. Are you looking it up?

Michael David Wilson 00:42:40 Yeah, yeah. Not that. I mean, don't always trust Wikipedia, but that is what Wikipedia saying. So the.

Josh Malerman 00:42:49 Like.

Michael David Wilson 00:42:49 The Sylvia Likens case with 65. The novel apparently was 89 and then the film was 2007.

Josh Malerman 00:43:00 Wow.

Josh Malerman 00:43:01 It seems like it was. I don't know why it seemed like so 30 years then. Yeah, 30. And that that would be the equivalent of like. And it's still like we all still consider that, like the flagship of what we're talking about right now.

Josh Malerman 00:43:16 That would be the equivalent of when that came out thinking that way of a book from like the late 50s. I mean, that's how powerful that freaking book is. Can you imagine in 1990, saying that the most powerful horror novel you ever read was from 1957 or something like no way. It really, man, that one, that one really did something. And it's one of the only times I've ever wanted to reach into a novel and change and stop what was happening. Like, like, I like, physically wanted to help my like I wanted to help them.

Josh Malerman 00:43:49 Yeah, yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:43:52 Anyway, Okay. Well, that was. Yeah. Now we're. Now we're all like, whoa. Sometimes I'll. Sometimes I'll just be like, at, like, a party or something or a family gathering and I'll just stare off into space and they're all like, what are you thinking about, Josh? And I'm like, off season.

Josh Malerman 00:44:06 Yeah, yeah. Oh my God.

Bob Pastorella 00:44:15 I still haven't finished reading The Girl Next Door.

Michael David Wilson 00:44:18 God damn it! Bob, what are you doing? Why are you even on this call? Why? You should be reading The Girl Next Door.

Bob Pastorella 00:44:27 It really got to me.

Josh Malerman 00:44:30 Oh, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 00:44:31 Oh, yeah. And I wasn't in a good place to read it, so I just, I, you know, I put it aside and I've never gone back to it. And I mean, you know, and what I read was like really, really well written and good. It's the actual content that, you know, it's like you can you think that you can write like the most disturbing thing and you and if you think it, you can, but then you read something that's really disturbing and you're like going, oh, man, I don't even know. Yeah. And that's that's kind of how I felt. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:45:12 Same dude.

Josh Malerman 00:45:12 And one of the things about that book and about him in general Offseason is like this too, is that it's the first like the first third or whatever has this like almost like Beat Writer sends this, like, just like this, like Like this.

Josh Malerman 00:45:30 Like the soul of a of a poet writing, you know, like you're like, oh, I've heard this book is unbearable. So far, so good. And then it's like, oh, well, they met on a rock. This boy and this girl and oh, they're like looking at fish and okay, I can I can handle this. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, oh no, no no no no no no. And then it's all like downhill, like falling off a cliff from there. But there's something about in off seasons, the same thing. There's something about that first stretch that, that I don't want to say that lulls you in, but it it's almost like Jack Ketchum is saying, like, it's like it's taking about like just, you know, like I'm about to perform for you. I'm a wonderful writer. And now here we go. And it's like, oh, man. It's like he it's almost like he like, pulls you in with his just brilliant, gorgeous openings.

Josh Malerman 00:46:20 And then all of a sudden it's brutal thing you've ever seen.

Josh Malerman 00:46:23 Yeah. Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 00:46:24 And that's, that's how I felt. It's like I used to say. And I'll still say it about reading Peter Straub. It's like, you know, Peter, when you start reading a Peter Straub book, he, you know, he held you by the hand. He shows you the path, he leads you on the way, and he let you go on your own. And pretty soon you realize that the hand that that you're holding is is not his anymore. It's, you know, it's the the ghost, the thing, the the entity and and it's guiding you. And it's like if you read if when you read the the girl next door, it's like Jack didn't even told you about the hand. He just like, here's the path. And then next thing you know, there's people on the path that are trying to pelt you with rocks, you know, and you're just like going, no, no, no.

Josh Malerman 00:47:13 Yeah, yeah. This is a beautiful path and now you're trying to kill me. You know.

Josh Malerman 00:47:16 I, like you.

Josh Malerman 00:47:17 Said that and framed that. I, you know, we can move on to any writer to talk about now, because what you're that whole idea of like showing some of the path. Stephen King obviously does that to where it's like, hey, come this way. And like I'm going to show you or I'm going to tell you the story, I'm going to show you this path. And not every great book has that I don't even like. I don't know if Moby Dick has that, but Moby Dick is a brilliant book. But that. That what? That sense of the author pulling aside the curtain drop down as that King has that, Jack Ketchum has that. And it's like, there's something interesting about that, I'm gonna think about I don't know if Edgar Allan Poe operates like that. His is more like, welcome to my nightmare or like, like you're you're sitting in the same, like, freaked out room as him or something.

Josh Malerman 00:48:05 but that is interesting to think of authors in that way that you were saying. I'm holding your hand. I never really thought of in that in those terms before.

Bob Pastorella 00:48:13 Yeah, I would think that Poe is probably he's not a hold your hand type of guy. He would have been like, here's the door. And I, you know, like you, you you have to knock on the door and but once you go inside, you know, you're you're you're internal. Your internal fears take over, you know. Oh yeah. Yeah. And and then it's like Lovecraft. It would be the same way. You knock on the door, you go inside and you realize you're the monster. So. Yeah, but you know, like.

Josh Malerman 00:48:40 Let's stick with this analogy for a second because it's interesting, like Straub actually walks you to that door. But I think that maybe you find that door with Poe because he's banging on it in another room and you're like, what's that noise? I mean, he has the most, like, frenetic, like frantic authors in certain ways.

Josh Malerman 00:49:00 Not all of it, but a lot of it. And Moby Dick is like that. I read something recently that also had that kind of like, holy cow energy to it. Oh, I'm reading it right now. A Philip Roth book. it's the first time I've ever read him. And it two has that just, like bouncing off the page energy. And and that is a different thing than the steady hand of a storyteller. It's almost like I hear that Walt Whitman is like that. I've never. I never read him. I haven't yet. I should, but. And I'm I'm really attracted to those kind of artists, you know, the the ones that are just, like, so, like, so alive that you can feel it, like it's just words on a page, man. But like, they're like, literally like leaping up at, like, like crawling around like bugs and bouncing. And they're like. It's like the words are like, in color and. But then I also love the kind of authors, but that steady hand also.

Bob Pastorella 00:49:55 Yeah. It's like it's it's almost like there's there's multiple different schools of it. But I've always felt that about about Straub. And that's, that's the way I would tell people, you know, to read, you know, like, hey, I want you to read this book. And I, you know, I'd loan them like my, my copy of Ghost Story or Shadow Land. And I'd say, look, you know, there's there's a this is don't Don't expect this to start with a bang. You know because it's not he it's will go story kind of does. But you still gotta you know kind of go in there. But I said he's, he's, he's gonna lead you down this path and he's gonna hold your hand. And pretty soon he's gonna, he's gonna let go, but you're gonna still feel someone holding your hand. And they're like, oh, that's kind of creepy. I'm like, yeah, you know, that's awesome. You can use that analogy on on on really on on any of them.

Bob Pastorella 00:50:52 Some authors are not going to hold your hand. I mean, like Ligotti, you know, you would be on the path and realize that that that not only are you the only one on the path, but you really didn't matter to begin with. So, you know, it's like you it's but that's that's just, that's because that's what they do. You know, that's their that's part of what makes their stories. You know why you read them.

Josh Malerman 00:51:19 Did you know that Ligotti's from like around where I'm from.

Bob Pastorella 00:51:24 now that you say it. Yes. But I didn't snap to that. Yes. Yeah. yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:51:29 Him and Kathy Koja are like two. Like, whenever I think about that, I'm like, those two are from here. Yes. You know. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of great minds and great writers and great filmmakers and Evil Dead, the Evil Dead team, and you know all that. But with Kathe Kona to be from like, literally like up the street, you know, it's like pretty pretty badass.

Bob Pastorella 00:51:52 Oh yeah.

Michael David Wilson 00:51:53 Yeah. I'm, I'm guessing that you probably haven't had much opportunity to meet up with Ligotti. He doesn't strike me as the type of person to just, like, meet up with a lot of people, but maybe cafe code? Yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:52:08 Yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:52:08 Me and me and Tommy, we went disco dancing one night. It was amazing. It was amazing. We drank. We drank a bunch of tequila. Just. It was amazing. Tom's the guy. He's the life of the party. What are you talking about? He was spinning records all night, like ABBA and stuff. No. My God. Yeah. No, I think that he moved to, I think he moved to Florida or something. I don't even know. He. He left town quietly. Just in this little wisp poof.

Josh Malerman 00:52:32 Yeah, yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:52:35 But, Cathy, I was seeing regularly, and she was there that night that, Jonathan Janz drove up here.

Josh Malerman 00:52:43 Nice.

Bob Pastorella 00:52:44 That's cool.

Josh Malerman 00:52:45 Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 00:52:46 I'm still thinking about that path analogy and how we can apply it to different writers.

Michael David Wilson 00:52:51 And I'm thinking with Haruki Murakami, you'd be walking down the path, then you'd fall down a fucking. Well, you get to the bottom, there's a cat, it probably starts talking to you, and then there's a little light and some jazz music playing, and you follow that light and God knows what happens from there.

Josh Malerman 00:53:09 Hahaha.

Bob Pastorella 00:53:11 Yeah.

Josh Malerman 00:53:12 I'm looking at my bookshelf, thinking of other ones.

Josh Malerman 00:53:14 Yeah, yeah, like Ramsey Campbell.

Bob Pastorella 00:53:17 He would hold your hand the whole time, but he would also try to convince you that what you're looking at could possibly not really be anything scary.

Josh Malerman 00:53:25 Oh man.

Bob Pastorella 00:53:26 Yeah, you know what I mean? But but maybe it is.

Josh Malerman 00:53:30 Do you have Bob? Do you have a favorite Ramsey Campbell book?

Bob Pastorella 00:53:33 Man? It's that's really kind of hard. I kind of have a favorite three. Okay. yeah. The Parasite, Obsession, and Incarnate.

Josh Malerman 00:53:44 I need to read Incarnate. I heard that that one's, super like, legit scary from a number of people have told me that.

Josh Malerman 00:53:53 Is that is that right?

Josh Malerman 00:53:54 Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 00:53:54 It's kind of like It's almost like the exact opposite of obsession, where you have people who believe they've had, some type of medicine or something administered to them or therapy regarding sleep and dreams. And their dreams start to, to come alive. And it's pretty freaking scary. Wait. That's what that's.

Josh Malerman 00:54:21 Wait, that's what Incarnate's about? Oh, that sounds amazing, dude.

Bob Pastorella 00:54:27 And Obsession is almost like the polar opposite of that. Were a pack of friends had made a that basically they made a pack, a group of friends had made a pack about something and it literally comes back to haunt them and, in and destroys them. And, this it's pretty, pretty gruesome. There's some imagery in The Parasite that has stuck with me to this day. that is just, you know, that I don't know, it's it's part of it. Here's here's the weird thing about it is that even though it's not really fully in the scene, but in Poltergeist two, whenever like with the the the worm thing that gets in from the, I guess, the tequila.

Bob Pastorella 00:55:17 Yeah. there's kind of like this, this. I don't know that. If I remember, it's been a long time since I've seen it, but then that didn't that creature really didn't have any arms and legs, and it was still trying to crawl. it had, like, appendages, you know, but they were. They were short and stubby. It's like they just weren't fully formed. There's something in the parasite that's not fully formed that does that. And Ramsay writes that shit like fucking top notch. I mean, it'll make the hair on the back of your neck stand up. And and I've read I'm reading this book, you know, probably I was probably about 18, 19, when I read it. And it just I was like, oh my God, this is the best chat I've ever read. And it's it's just, I don't know, man, to be able to, to, to, to capture that. And that's one of the things that he does that's so cool, is that he'll write about the most mundane thing in the world and make it possibly ambiguously creepy? And to be able to write it at that level where you're working on, on a surface and underneath the surface at the same time, and he just pulls it off like it's just nothing, you know? Or it seemed like that reading it.

Bob Pastorella 00:56:41 I mean, maybe it was pure torture trying to write it, but, you know, that's just that's some fine shit, man.

Josh Malerman 00:56:49 I read there's a scene in The Doll Who Ate His mother that I. It's like they're dancing in the. Did you read that one? It's like they're dancing in the basement. There's, like, play. I can't remember exactly what it was, but I was reading that in the last house Allison and I lived at, and I had to like, stop, like in. And you guys know it's you're always looking for that, right? You're looking for that moment of like, oh, oh shit. That was like I'm like actually like scared. Like I'm not. I'm not just like, oh, that was good. It's now it's like more like, Alison, you know. Alison, what are you what are you doing? What do you mean, what am I doing? You know, it's like, I'm just wondering, what are you doing? You know, because you, like, you're, like, scared to be alone all of a sudden.

Josh Malerman 00:57:34 That happened to me with that one. I started reading the parasite out loud to her, and then my dog ate it. but then I got another, I read a sweet ass thing, that he, like, curated called Fine Frights. Like a book of collection of short stories that he loves. And that was amazing. I just really like that guy. And the way that he writes, and it's all just. He's one of those guys that have taught me, in terms of because I feel like there's a tendency when you begin as a horror author to make sort of the scare, like a centerpiece, right? Or everything is leading up to the scare. But then a guy like Ramsey Campbell has taught me that like, no, no, no, you you have your scene and then you that is slid into the scene. It doesn't have to be like, you know, it's like the guy's heading towards the door, puts his hand on the knob, opens the door. There's the monster.

Josh Malerman 00:58:28 Right? No, it's like it's more like on his way to that door and he puts his hand on the knob and he's like, wait a minute, what did I what did I do? Did I see a face in the bush on the way to this door like that? He's like. It's like things are more like. Like just like not understated. That's not the right word. It's just. It's so classy and how it's done and it's like, whoa. It's almost like he writes in like out of the you. You experience the scene out of the corner of your eye.

Bob Pastorella 00:58:56 Right? Right. I mean, he'll and he'll write stuff that'll make you read the sentence again, not because you didn't understand it. You fully understand. Stood what you read. Yeah, but you'll read it again in the hopes that you can get that same sensation again. Yeah, and usually you can. I mean, it's like one, one sentence and I'm. I'm probably gonna butcher it and I'm probably getting the wrong thing.

Bob Pastorella 00:59:23 But just to give you an idea, is there someone that were in a car? They were going down the highway and they noticed there was like a crane working on something And the way he described the crane, with its arm bent and lifted over, was like a spider leg. And it was just like, you're like, going, And it kind of gives you an insight to the character's state of mind as well, because you're seeing it from their perspective, and you know that their perspective may not be very reliable and that that causes a lot of suspense right there.

Josh Malerman 01:00:00 Yeah, well, I wrote down Incarnate. I'm gonna I'm gonna read that one. I'm, I think I have it. If you hear my voice, I'm, I'm looking at this big mountain of awesome books to be read, and I think it's in this stack, actually. So I think because it's kind of a longer one, that one isn't it. It's like 500.

Josh Malerman 01:00:21 I mean I think I may check that one out, that one and another one that I really need to read is the ceremonies.

Josh Malerman 01:00:25 I gotta read The Ceremonies already. That one.

Bob Pastorella 01:00:28 Is. You mean by TED Klein.

Josh Malerman 01:00:31 Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 01:00:31 Yep. You haven't read The Ceremonies.

Josh Malerman 01:00:35 I know, dude, that one is like a major gap. Me that one has been. It's just I don't know what it is. You know how, like, you'll turn around and you're like, why the hell have I never read this, right? That one has always just slipped by and it's time. It's like, let's do this.

Bob Pastorella 01:00:50 Let's do this. This is this is be really cool. Because. Have you ever read The Events at Poroth Farm?

Josh Malerman 01:00:56 Yes. Yep. Okay.

Bob Pastorella 01:00:59 I figured you had. So now keep that in your mind and read the read the ceremonies. Because a nice chunk of The Events at Poroth Farm are in the ceremonies. Well, really, it's basically that story expanded out to its near impossible length.

Josh Malerman 01:01:21 I got it right here.

Josh Malerman 01:01:22 I went and got it while you while you're just talking. The sign is the forest was ablaze.

Josh Malerman 01:01:31 Yeah. Christmas before. So I don't know if you guys are aware of this, but what we're really doing tonight is I'm just going to read the ceremonies for the next 19 hours.

Josh Malerman 01:01:41 And that.

Josh Malerman 01:01:42 Would be an amazing thing to just, like, have to read this whole book.

Josh Malerman 01:01:46 Live.

Josh Malerman 01:01:48 Like, on Facebook Live, while Allison plies me with, like, cocaine and coffee or something. And then. No, no, no, no, that's too much.

Josh Malerman 01:01:55 But but I would. but I would like to,

Josh Malerman 01:02:01 maybe I will. Yeah. Now, the way you asked why I hadn't read this made me feel like this has got to be next.

Bob Pastorella 01:02:07 Yeah. I mean, to me, it's just, it's the. It's really hard for me. I love the books. That's really hard for me to be critical about it and to be realistic about it. but to be like, okay, let's let's go ahead and be 100% honest about it. The ending is a little rushed. but it's the journey that really sends it home.

Josh Malerman 01:02:34 dude, I'm on it, dude. I'm doing it.

Bob Pastorella 01:02:35 I'm doing it because. Because there's so many. Because there's so many great, great, great books that when you look back, you can sit back, you know. You know, that kind of rushed the ending. Yeah. I didn't really stick exactly. But here's the thing. You gotta you gotta give him credit. We're talking about Ted Klein, the guy whose most famous quote is, I will literally do anything I can to avoid writing.

Josh Malerman 01:03:03 Yeah, yeah.

Josh Malerman 01:03:04 I've heard that.

Bob Pastorella 01:03:05 And he stuck with this book for hundreds of pages so that that means something. You know.

Josh Malerman 01:03:14 I watched him on Eating The Fantastic. Do you ever see you've seen that episode? Wow. That was wild because it's just an interesting he, he's like such a New Yorker and, and they're in like a deli and he's like smacking his lips, you know, eating while he's talking the whole time, and, and, and you're like this dude, what an interesting role this guy has had in the history of horror, you know, wrote some of the most celebrated, most respected stuff in one of the most celebrated eras.

Josh Malerman 01:03:49 But yet none of us know that much about him. No, he didn't write that many books. He just a very interesting slot that he fills in horror history, you know.

Bob Pastorella 01:03:59 Right. And then it's like kind of like IRA Levine. He didn't write that many books. Yeah, but what he wrote was, was incredible.

Josh Malerman 01:04:07 And wasn't Cline also the, editor of Twilight Zone, the magazine, wasn't he. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 01:04:13 Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 01:04:13 He was the editor, one of the, he was the fiction editor. And then he went on to work for GQ, I think. Or one of them. One of them. Yeah. Just like totally different thing. He was a, and I hate I don't want to get it wrong, but what I remember reading it, he was a fashion editor for fashion articles, not for like, photos or things like that. It was for actual articles. And so he had like a team of columnists that he had to to, you know, work with monthly.

Bob Pastorella 01:04:51 and I if I'm wrong about that, then someone please correct me. But that's, that's that's what I remember reading. It was like he almost disappeared off the face of the earth. And I want to say that it was on a Facebook post by Richard Sizemore. I think we were chatting about that on Facebook back in the day and someone said, well, no, no, no, he he works for so-and-so now.

Josh Malerman 01:05:16 Okay. Okay. But yeah. Well.

Josh Malerman 01:05:21 You know, it's it's you know, it's funny. You know, it's very easy for me to be like, I don't understand. Why wouldn't somebody just want to write, like, a thousand books in their lives and and, like, put out ten books a year and keep going until they, like, you know, fall to dust. But I mean, everyone's got their own experience, man. And and like you said, his famous quote is he'll do absolutely anything to not write. Well, this guy wrote like a I'm looking at it right now, a giant like, you know, book that's like crazily respected in the genre.

Josh Malerman 01:05:52 And it's like, isn't that isn't that good enough? Josh. Yes, that's good enough. But it's funny when you hear of something like that as a prolific you, there's a side of you that's like, I don't get it. Why don't why didn't he write more? I don't get it, you know? But it's like, he's a different person than you, dude.

Josh Malerman 01:06:11 Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 01:06:13 Yeah, but I mean, he I think he discovered, like, David J. Schow, you know, and it's funny because in David J. Schow collection, he talks about how David broke every one of his rules when he was working at Twilight Zone magazine. You know, because he said, you know, hey, I set up some rules. No stories about Vietnam vets, no stories about movies, no stories about that. He has a son of a bitch. Breaks every single one of them. And I have to literally publish him because he's that good.

Josh Malerman 01:06:46 Is that from the collection, Seeing Red?

Josh Malerman 01:06:48 Yes. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 01:06:49 That one.

Josh Malerman 01:06:50 Yeah yeah.

Bob Pastorella 01:06:51 Yeah. That is that is the bomb.

Josh Malerman 01:06:55 Yeah. That guy man. And he's also awesome online by the way. Like on on social media I just like, like, I don't know, anytime I, see a comment or anything by him, I'm always like, thrilled.

Bob Pastorella 01:07:07 Oh boy Schow. Yeah. He's he doesn't show up very often. I've been to Killer Con twice, hoping to catch him both times. And, the first, the first time, I think is, daughter was having a knee surgery or something like that, and it was just absolutely no way that he was going to miss that. And then the second time something else happened and, there was absolutely no way he was going to miss that. So it was just bad timing. And of course, now, you know, we have, like, extremely bad timing, but we might I mean, who knows. They might have him on on the, the online version of Killer Con so who knows.

Josh Malerman 01:07:48 Yeah I would love to see.

Josh Malerman 01:07:49 That.

Josh Malerman 01:07:50 I'm dirty. You really got me like, you know how you, like your mind. Like it's snagged. Like I'm. I'm holding the ceremonies. Like I'm just like, look, I'm like, it's time. Here we go. You got me tonight. You can't read.

Bob Pastorella 01:08:02 It, right? Like, right now. You have to wait.

Josh Malerman 01:08:06 Now I'm reading. You can talk amongst yourselves. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 01:08:09 Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 01:08:15 Thank you so much for listening to this horror with the wonderful Josh Melman. Of course, if you would like to listen to part two now, if you would like to listen to every episode ahead of the crowd, then become a patron at Patreon.com forward slash disease horror. Not only do you get early, but access to each episode, but you get to submit questions to each and every interviewee, and we have a number of exciting guests coming up we're going to be talking to David Cummings of No Sleep Podcast, arena, Mason Jama, and more and many, many more people.

Michael David Wilson 01:08:59 So if you want to submit questions to them or other masters of horror, then consider being our Patreon at Patreon.com forward slash. This is horror. Okay, before I wrap up, a quick word from our sponsors.

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Michael David Wilson 01:10:14 Now, recently, I've been closing with some of my tweets that seem to be resonating with you good people.

Michael David Wilson 01:10:21 So I'm going to do it again. It's my attempt to to share some wisdom in terms of creativity and writing advice. And I'm probably going to keep doing this until someone gives me feedback, which would be great. I mean, even let me know, hey, this is working! Keep sharing your wisdom or tell me to get back to giving quotes from classic writers, which, well, I guess I've been doing for hundreds of episodes. Now, if there's another way that you'd like me to close out the show, then share that with me as well. I mean, This Is Horror Podcast has always been a collaboration in a sense, between listener and host and guest. We're always looking for your feedback, so please let me know how you getting on out. We'll send the Writer. But for now, here is a little tidbit that I shared on Twitter that some of you seem to have responded quite well to. When you get to that uncertain place where you're unsure whether a story is total rubbish, or if there's something there, that is when it's worth pursuing.

Michael David Wilson 01:11:34 Creativity shines when you're uncomfortable. I'll see you in the next episode for part two with Josh Malerman. But until then, take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have a great, great day.