Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to This Is Horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode alongside my co host, Bob Pastorella. We chat with masters of horror, about writing, life lessons, creativity, and much more. And today's guest is Josh Malerman. This is the second in a three part conversation. So if you missed part one, go back on episode 359. But as we've all heard these episodes really you can listen in any order. And for those unfamiliar with Josh Malerman, he is the author of bird barks, which was of course made into a hugely successful movie. With Sandra Bullock. It is one of the most popular movies that has been on Netflix to date. He's also the author of a house at the bottom of a lake which is a novella originally put out by yours truly at This Is Horror is coming out later this year, rereleased via del Rey. He's also the author of carpenters farm that came out on his website that happened this lockdown, I say this lockdown, like it's fucking an annual event. Hopefully, it's not going to be an annual event. But yeah, that happened recently. And he's also the author of Mallory, the sequel to Birdbox and we talk a lot about this in this second part of the conversation. So, lots to look forward to. But before any of that, let's have a quick word from our sponsor says

Bob Pastorella 2:15
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Bob Pastorella 3:04
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Michael David Wilson 3:33
All right, with that said here it is. It is part two of the conversation with Josh Malerman. We need to talk about Mallory. And I mean, what was it like going back to that world because me and Bob were talking before we got on air and I mean, for us, it just seems so cozy and comfortable. Like you're being welcomed back home again. And it was just such a wonderful feeling to read a book within that universe, but I mean, what fee What about for you? Did it come naturally with some trepidation? I mean, talk us through this a little bit.

Josh Malerman 4:22
Well, there's a lot to say. The original draft of Bird Box had a thread that was um, that made the book about twice as long and then I got rid of in the course of rewrites, um, because I felt like it was diluting the scare. I felt like if I'm I almost feel like Bird Box you could play one note on like a synthesizer and through the entire book, and this other thread kind of made it like you kind of had to add another note and I didn't I didn't want to establish like a chord. I just liked that one hum, you know, and so I got rid of it. And through the years, I've been like, what didn't you know? Would you ever use that? Or I don't know, maybe I got a million other ideas. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe. I do love that thread though. No, no, maybe. And Kristen, my agent would ask me, you know, would you ever consider a sequel? And I'm like, Well, no. Well, there's this one thread. No, maybe? I don't know. Not right now. And then, Allison, I saw the movie. Um, and in it. It did something to me. At the end, I turned to her. And it sounds like so dumb when I say this. But it's true. I was like, well, now what happens to her? And she was like, Oh, come on, like, how's the world arises? You know? Is it that's up to you, Josh, you know, and I was like, Well, okay, I guess it is. And then, um, and when we saw the movie, it was before it came out. And before the crazy success of it, and Bird Box being on the New York Times bestseller list. Wow, that is still just bananas. And then, but those three elements having a thread that I loved, that didn't make it. Seeing Sandra Bullock play Malorie. And the success of the movie all added up to Yeah, I'm gonna write that next one. Now. I'm gonna I'm gonna write that threat now. So I did something that I'm usually it's sort of against my nature, I have a rule like, never return to the scene of the magic. Don't ever try to repeat a great night. Don't ever try to repeat. Like, we all had so much fun. When the five of us went to the tiger game, let's all go again. Yeah, well, it never kind of works out the same this time, maybe we should all just hang out in the park at the corner or something. Right. And, but I literally went back to the room that I was renting when I wrote Bird Box. And I mean, I wrote that rough draft and Oh, six, you know, and I went back to this room, and nobody, it was unoccupied. And I rented it again. Or really was just allowed to use it, to be honest with you, um, and walked in there, and the same desk was there and the same little attic windows, and there's the bedroom I was sleeping in, in the bathroom in the kitchen. And I woke up every morning at seven to write Birdbox. So, so I went there early in the morning, and you know, it was the same staircase up to the room. And I just wanted to like, feel it again, that room, it had been so long. I don't know, I just whatever. I don't know what that was, maybe I was just being overly nostalgic. And I wrote the first couple chapters there. And then I was like, Okay, I got it. And then essentially, I took my own advice and was like, now let's let's write the bulk of Mallory somewhere else. And it really was, like I said, that thread. So I get through the whole thing. The whole thing. And I with Trisha, my editor, we go through numerous rewrites. And then we're at the redline stage. I mean, we're at the we're at the end, right? Where now we've gone through everything macro and this and that. And juggling scenes, if we, you know, needs be, and we've had all these discussions. And we're at the stage where it's like, now she redline the whole thing, you know, word by word when she thought and stuff, and a better idea hit me. And I wrote Trisha, I'm like, I can't believe I'm doing this. But I would like to throw the ball out and throw the ball over the plate again, I'm gonna get a hold of it this time. And she and to her credit, she she did not even not even for one second was like, Dude, we just spent all the things you know, she was like, using you can do a better version, like from from scratch. Oh my gosh, like, go ahead. And I did and it was so fluid. And part of it was Kristen said to me, she's like, don't be afraid to um, what did what did she say it was something along the lines of don't be afraid for it to be like Bird Box. Like, in tone. Like, I think I have a tendency to, um, with each book. It's like a whole new world and, and I'm in a whole new mood, and I'm a whole new man and all these things. And Kristen's advice was essentially, don't be afraid for it to be a little like Bird Box in town. This is that world, like, get into that world again. And I was like, Oh, right. That is okay, you're right. This, this is okay. It's okay for that. It's okay. For any book I write to be like Birdbox, but especially this one. So. So I had that in mind. I have the better idea. And that draft, the one that is finished, took it was like it was just gorgeous. I wrote a chapter the next day, rewrote it, added the next one and was done like within a few weeks and felt, you know, like there was barely any conversation or edits with Tricia at that point. It was just so so obvious that it was so much more natural and organic. And so it's interesting because that thread died twice. He was in but But it's interesting because what a what a what a strange thing that to have an idea that helped propel two books that you wrote in your career. But that idea didn't make it into either one of them. And that's, that's interesting to me. And I didn't feel any and I still don't. Um, I didn't feel any pressure. Because I think that just despite the absolutely abysmal madness of politics today, I do think there are scenarios where doublethink is okay. And one of those is, when you sit down to write the follow up to a New York Times bestseller, I think it's okay to say to yourself, This better be good. And feel that and then to also say to yourself, and if it's not, it's just a book. And I think it's okay, for both realities to be there at once and to believe both realities. So I never really felt any pressure, you know, this movie did well, um, the publishers banking on this, like, all these things are true, but it was like, I had a moment years ago, when the band was in New York, where I, um, I remember this. So clearly, I was in the basement where I slept and where we recorded songs. And I remember, like, there was a lot of like drinking and drugging and parties, and good news and bad news. And then we were broke. And we had a show and all these things that could have been quote unquote, distractions, right. And I had been trying to write books, but hadn't pulled it off yet. This is like the year 2000, or something. And I'm in this basement of this like weird place and knew where I lived in New York and Brooklyn. And I remember I was alone. And I consciously said to myself, I need you to put writing creating songs, books, I need you to put them in a place in your mind, in your soul in your body, your heart that is untouchable, that is untouchable by anything anyone says whether or not they, you know, they think you're good or bad crowd reaction to your song, or someone reacting to something you wrote, um, is untouchable by drinking too much. If you're drinking too much, you still need to write every day is untouchable by falling in love. Don't let that you know, you still need to write constantly, and pressure. And if there's ever a scenario where you sit down and there's all this trust pressure to write, I want writing itself to be in a space that is untouchable. And I made a conscious effort in like the year 2002. I don't want to say I locked it in a room because that sounds like it's in a stuffy place. I just put it out of reach. And we're only I even I can't really get to it until I sit down and write. And so to sit down with Malorie, there's all this stuff going on some pretty big stuff with Bird Box and the movie, and then the producers of Bird Box are talking to me, you know, I hear you're writing a sequel, what's it about? I mean, a lot of things that you could like get into your mind, right? Get in your head. And it just it didn't happen. I felt zero pressure. The first one was just a dud. Um, the first stab at it was, I think, again, I think I was just trying to write something different. And sometimes that can be good. And this one just felt like I had a friend that read both. And he's like, dude, the other one is great, too. He loves the other version, whatever. But to me, it's obvious that that this one was the one so i It seems like a scenario where there should have been a lot of pressure. But I intentionally keep that stuff out of reach of that and, and it and it worked in my favor with Malorie.

Michael David Wilson 13:47
And it sounds like with the second fashion, the final version tonally and stylistically, it's very different. And obviously for the better. But I'm wondering, in terms of content, are there a lot of commonalities? I mean, so I guess I'm saying What, no, so so like, literally when you say you wrote a new version, everything is a new version. Yep.

Josh Malerman 14:17
So I've written 32 books, and I count that other version as one of those 32 Because it's an entire novel that I wrote, that is nothing like malar is nothing like it. And it couldn't be I mean, I guess it couldn't be but I wouldn't even want it to be like a third book or something. No, it was just like, um, in hindsight, it almost feels like like maybe Mallory and I were just hanging out for 300 pages. And then I was like, it was almost like I was interviewing her. And then it was like, Okay, now I can tell your story. And but it's yeah, it's a novel that's like almost wholly unrelated except for obviously, Mallory, Tom Olympia and that they can't look at anything but any But, but in terms of plots and characters and all that, no, none of it was it's an entirely different novel.

Michael David Wilson 15:07
And that's fascinating. And I imagine in a number of years, there will be people who are like, come on, Josh, we want to see, we want to see that work. You know that people will ask for it. I mean, you, you'll say no, but people, especially when they hear this, they're like, holy shit. There's another 300 Page pages. I mean, it's like, you've literally written an alternate reality. It's like that is the timeline if you just stuck with that book.

Josh Malerman 15:44
Yeah, I just I don't know and there was one scene in there, that was really good, too. But, but and there's just literally no room for it, where it's actually like a dance at like, at the, at the most sort of pathetic stab at a party that you could have in this world. And, and I loved that scene, but it just literally, there was no room for it in this one. But then, but that might make it like a fun, like short story or something, just that scene it was it's like using like an old, abandoned prison that a bunch of people were using the cells with all open doors, obviously, as sort of like where they sleep, right? There's like cots and like, the rooms are decorated or whatever. And then like the center center, sort of like common area of that prison. There's a dance party. That's how, and that that seen. That one was good. I missed that one. But I mean, just overall, it's just like, you know, like, when you're playing music, or if you're pitching in a baseball game, like, I just didn't have my stuff on that one. I just didn't have it. And I don't know if Trisha would agree with that. If she was here, she might be like, it's just different. I don't know. But there's no question that the one that came out is more alive. And the one that's coming out, is more alive and that it's the right one. It's the right story and just better ideas. And coming from like a, like a place of like heart rather than mind. I'll place a feel rather than skill in which, to me is always more important. I'd rather have like with an album, I never usually care how well produced it is I want to I just want to like feel it. I always think of that, um, I went on a tour of the Motown Museum in Detroit. And they said that Barry Gordy said that when they were mixing, you know, once the staff and the janitors and the staff were like, sort of singing along or tapping their toes that the song was mixed, we're done, or what do you mean that it could use more guitar? No, no, no, everyone's dancing. Okay. He's like, we got it. It worked. And I think of that with the books, you know, I'm like, I'll be like, you know, with Malorie, I'm like, Are the janitors tapping their toes? Yeah. Okay. I think we got it. We got it. It could have been like, every every book could be slicker, or maybe the plot a little tighter or this Yeah, yeah. But is everyone in the room dancing? Like, yeah, we got it. We got it. Let's roll. And that first one feels like an unmixed song. Like, like it like it hadn't reached that spot or something. And wasn't going to you know what I mean?

Bob Pastorella 18:14
All right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you could definitely tell that it's, it's from what I've read. So far, it's coming from definitely a place of feeling that we have, we have three people that are, are, there's there's not much room for thought, of course, their minds are constantly thinking in, you know, in mulling over things, and, and all of that, but there's, there's a lot of feeling involved a lot of emotional attachment. And it's that kind of writing is very powerful. And to me, I think, I feel like the debt for this particular type of story, you did the right thing, because it sounds like the other one was maybe a little bit more cerebral. Yeah, this type of story, maybe that's not the approach that you want to have. I'm sure that, you know, it could have been really cool. But you really want to have some heart. Instead of, you know, some brain

Josh Malerman 19:17
and you know, oh, go ahead. Sorry, about, it's just, you know,

Bob Pastorella 19:21
and you can feel it, you can you can, when you read it, you can feel that with the characters, that these are people that you relate to in a way that you relate to, you know, to other people, and you can, you know, there's a lot of empathy there. You could put yourself in their shoes, and you could see how decisions that are made based upon feeling can cause a life or death situation to happen immediately.

Josh Malerman 19:48
Awesome. Yeah, no, I'm so glad. I'm so glad that you're reading this man. I'm like, like, you know, because I don't know this is almost like the second it was done. And then I knew was done. Then it was like I was able to like acknowledge, like, hey, there was pressure involved here, you know? So, so it was like, okay, like, you know, like get through that one without without, you know crumbling without without break down or falling, falling to pieces. And then now to see it, but you know what have yet and it's coming is the official like hardcover. I just got a what's it called an email the other day, I think yesterday saying that Delray got them and they're shipping them to me and I'm like, oh my god, I can't wait to like, hold that thing in the leaves through it, you know, and you hear that you're getting it and I saw your tweet, and thank you for that. And, and it's like, it's so huge, you know, I don't know, it's like, like I was saying at the beginning of this whole talk, man making it is actually a very literal phrase. It's literally making it the work of art. So like, to have that, you know, I don't know, it just, I'm just very, I guess I'm proud of this one. I guess that's an All right thing to say. And it's okay to say things like that. No, man, and I am.

Bob Pastorella 21:05
It is, you've done. You've done something here you can there's one scene I'm not going to spoil anything, there's no saying I'm a I'm right at the 50% mark, basically. So halfway through it. And there's one scene with with the character who's doing something that they shouldn't do. And that scene is the whole time. I think my hand was shaking when I was reading it. And I'm like, you know, got my finger and I'm reading on Kindle. So I got my finger ready, ready to swipe the page in there the turn to page and I looked at my hand my hand was shaking. I was like, oh my god, this is so intense. And I mean, so the people that are listening to this I don't know when this is going to air hopefully it's going to air around the time the book comes out y'all are in for fucking treat. Because this book.

Josh Malerman 22:00
I know the moment you're talking about, because I know that it's about halfway and God, if a movie is made, I would love to see that moment. I got that like film like I can just see it in my head right now. You know? Yeah. Yeah, I hope that makes it. Like Bird Box is an interesting one and Malorie. Well actually Malorie's not by much but a little, it would take a little bit more maybe like Barbarossa is a story that could have been filmed on your iPhone, or as the huge blockbuster way it was done. Like you're in a house, you're on a river, you're in a house, you're in a and Mallory's very similar, a little bigger in certain ways, not not that much. And it's just interesting how like, you can, it's almost like, in the same way that the creatures themselves are a bit of a Rorschach test, especially for a horror fan because what do you see here? And we've read all sorts of you know, we've read all sorts of monsters and and creatures and images and and what we find scary. We've, we've examined and talked about and all this right. And so then like, think about with like, like, just like the creatures themselves are a bit of a Rorschach test. So is, so would be the adaptation of Birdbox and Mallory, where it could be the smallest thing I mean, I can imagine like a stick figure animated version was scary music all the way to Sandra Bullock playing Malorie and both would seem sensible adaptations. There's just something like naturally very small about the story in both the world the story like I've never fully considered Birdbox like quote unquote, and times apocalyptic and I know we've talked about that before for sure. I've never really thought about it I've always thought about it as like a Twilight Zone episode a very small thing meaning one woman experience in this like house and Anna River and now in this case, I don't want to ruin anything but her experience now and now with the two kids as well. So I've always felt like there's something strangely Rorschach test about Birdbox and Mallory that I don't I don't really know what that is but I think it begins with the teachers and and and from them fans out this idea that like any anything goes that you a reader or an adapter can come up with

Bob Pastorella 24:29
and it does have that really small feel to it, which is good, it's personal. But at the same time expecially there's there's those that no no, I don't want to spoil anything but he he find out that there you know, there's others people and we already know this but you get you get a little bit of glimpse of that. But you almost feel like this might could possibly be isolated to like our Reaching, you know, you don't never really get the global thing which you get you get in a lot of, I guess, post post apocalyptic stories, you don't get this global aspect to it. And if you go too far into that global aspect it takes away from the story. So this is this is personal. And that's good.

Josh Malerman 25:21
You know, Bob, like, I think that you just said, I just like, like, got all excited and jumped up in my chair and turn the chair, let's face the computer. I was leaning back a second ago, but not anymore. Damn it. And I think I think that what you just pointed out to me, and I had never really thought of before is that the government plays almost no part no role in Bernbach. So Mallory, that is that is something that typically plays a major part in in an apocalyptic or end times end of the world novel, like, how is the government handling this? Are they lying about it? Is there a lunatic in charge? You know? And typically, the answer is yes. And these novels of this sort, but the government and that kind of thing is almost not even. Gosh, I don't even know is it even mentioned once Mallory, I don't even know what I mean,

Bob Pastorella 26:12
I don't even I don't even think it's mentioned once in Birdbox. And I think that's really a really good thing. You know, because you see it a lot now, and all kinds of paranormal stuff. You know, I mean, probably probably the best examples, Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Because the whole perspective, other than Richard Dreyfuss's character and Teri Garr and the others is from the government from an entity, whether it's the US government or a global construct, or whatever, trying to communicate with aliens, you know, and so you have these, these people in there. What, what you what you find is, it's like, it's completely secretive. But there are people within that group that are very, I guess, sympathetic. They're very, you know, like, the main guy can't remember his name. He's French, and the name escapes me, but he's, he's a very sympathetic character. You know, when he's he basically when he's talking to him, and he wants to know, if they've had a close encounter, you know, right. And it's like, what what do you what do you mean, you know, and he's, he's, he's genuinely interested in their perspective.

Josh Malerman 27:26
Isn't that actually Truffaut I mean, the director. Yeah, right. Yeah. I read that entire frickin book, Hitchcock Truffaut, where Truffaut interviews got it. If you guys haven't read this, where Truffaut interviews Hitchcock on every single movie he's made, every single one and almost every single one and in order and almost every single one Truffaut's extremely, like wow, direct, like, you know, this one, you know, is not your finest hour. This one, this was like, and then Hitchcock would be like, no, no, it's really not, you know, and it's like, it's like, wow, and then every now and then Hitchcock would be like that one I feel good about like, The Trouble with Harry is one of his favorites. And Psycho he liked and shadow of a doubt he liked and not many, though, out of like, you know, the guy Hitchcock what a dude, man, because like, we don't have time I would let's not let's not go on that trip right now. I'm I could. That's like a launching pad for me. But yeah, Truffaut to be in close encounters. I didn't know that as a kid. You know, I didn't know that. I just I was like, the foreign doc that foreign scientists guy, you know.

Bob Pastorella 28:45
But it was weird about it is like the whole entity. They don't take a sinister or a hopeful. Look at there. There is a hopeful aspect of it that you don't see till later. Yeah, but they don't. They're very neutral. Whereas from Yeah, seemed like from that point on, if you had something paranormal the government was gonna be involved about it. And especially like, even like E T. They're almost like they were the bad guys. Yeah, you know. And it's like, so anytime you read something, to me this paranormal part of the reason why I got away from it, which I'm working on something paranormal right now, but still, is that there's always the government and you know, and then of course, it's completely parodied in men and black. But it's just like, can we get away from that? You know, or does that

Josh Malerman 29:40
yeah, that is I enjoy you brought it up what you brought up moments ago, I never fully thought of that. And, and then now it's like, it's almost making me want to think of like, a challenge. And I can imagine everyone's saying no, but doing an End Time story where the government actually is helpful. Like that he's

Bob Pastorella 30:00
taking it from the other direction. Right?

Josh Malerman 30:04
I don't think I've ever read it and I'm sorry, where it's like and the government's like, Hey, we're getting we're we're giving you all the blindfolds, no way. No way. They're all like vanished and you know, but in Yeah, and especially, but bird, no bird box, or Mallory was written in this totally messed up era. And it never even crossed my mind men, I just, it's always been, again that Twilight Czone Outer Limits, self contained story that I never the minute you go to, I remember feeling weird about even mentioning the creatures, you know, being seen in Russia and Alaska and stuff. In Birdbox. I remember feeling weird about that. The editor told me with Birdbox. She was like, I think you need to, like add in just just a little bit, you know, that they saw some news, you know, like about it like, and I was like, Yeah, you know, so CNN actually made it into Birdbox. For that reason, where she was like, I think it just, you know, and I was like, Can I just say like, they saw the news. And she's like, but just just like a little bit more like, can you give me like three sentences about you know, they watch the news and the news shut down or something? Just because, like, there are certain things that people will ask like, what didn't you ever watch the news, right? And I was like, I'll do that for you, Shall she also with Birdbox? Tell me like, because there was I had read. I don't remember what it was. But I had a sort of intentionally left food out of the rough draft of Birdbox. I wanted it to be like, this isn't a physical survival. It's a philosophical survival story. And intentionally, like no mention of food. And she was like, I think you gotta just, can you just give me and I was like, Can I just say, there's much cans in the basement. She's like, done, oh, my god, great.

Bob Pastorella 32:03
Oh, me, you know, you assumed that your characters are gonna eat, they're gonna, you know, do do the things that they do. I guess in a situation like that, in time situation that you know, your union, you probably have to be careful about doing things that you that be just become that you take for granted. But, you know, I don't think that you need to sit there and talk about every time your character eat. Assume that they do, but you probably need to bring it up occasionally. Then plus dinner is like a great way for, you know, conversation. But you know,

Josh Malerman 32:45
I would love to read a book, a guy or a girl sitting on a rock, as a maybe at times just came. And the whole book is like just reflecting on like, what the hell just happened. And then like, literally the person doesn't even eat in the book. I'm just a lot. I feel like a lot of sort of doomsday scenarios, the survival in so heavily physically. And I'm way more interested in like, How the hell would I keep my head together in that scenario? Yeah, because I can barely do it now. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 33:25
Well, one thing we spoke about at the start of the conversation was obviously, a lot of the promotion and initial ideas for Mallory have fat to go because of COVID. So I'm wondering, I mean, what are you looking to do in terms of launching Mallory? Because like, I think sometimes when we have these limitations, they can force us to get more creative. Although as I say that I'm not sure how much more fucking creative you can get than going around a train with the PA systems and stuffing at speakers we were at stations of the scenes acted out but man I'd be interested to hear what you're doing.

Josh Malerman 34:12
Well, so Wow town is the name of our like troop in a major way, everyone's major player in wild town, but Cindy spires is a major planner and thinker and player in the whole scene. And she she's the one that actually set up the zoo thing Cindy's like, just as a brilliant friend of Alison of mine, um, and she'll, she'll do anything from setting things up behind the scenes to filming things to starring in it to reading she'd literally do anything. And she um, she brought up something it was hilarious. Because I was talking to her I'm like, Yeah, what do we do? I guess we can I guess we can just do it live, you know, like online and all this and then and then she's like, Josh, you do realize we could pre record something and release it that day, right? I was like, Oh yeah, you're right. She's like we can do whatever the hell we want. We can like film scenes we can do. You know, we could. It doesn't have to be like some like ether net live feed of us like trying to recreate an event that was canceled. We do whatever the hell we want. I was like, oh shit, Cindy, you're right. i Right. Why was I think you know, I? And then um, so we are talking that way her i Allison the group while town um, but I don't know exactly what that means yet. Some really bizarre ideas have been tossed out there. Like, like Mallory's at a resort. Maybe. Like, like, we're like, whatever we put Valerie forget all this. Like, God everything's so strenuous right now, Cooper Mallory like at a resort. Like we put Mallory in a hot tub. Like Gary shows up at the hot tub or something, you know, and like that, like the horrors from your past or something, you know? And, and we're like, we've been thinking about like, a million things. How can we do this? Can it be fun? So we're definitely thinking I also think that we would probably hopefully, do the Detroit zoo thing, man, even if it was a year later. But if we were able to some maybe, let's see where things are at in the autumn because God it would be great to do it around Halloween. Right. And then also, I'm doing an event with Joe Hill, um, the either like the night or two nights later from the release, where we will. Allison will be reading from Mallory like performing it a little. And then Joe and I will be talking about full throttle, and his book and Mallory and then like taking questions from people him and I did a man what a great dude, man. I don't know if you guys have you met him yet.

Michael David Wilson 36:54
So I haven't actually met him. Dan Howarth met him. There's a very brief interview back in episode nine of This Is Horror Podcast gets Dan went to a launch event. I think it was fair, Nosferatu. And then he managed to get about 20 minutes with Joe. So one of our earliest episodes is is a conversation with Joe Hill, just 20 minutes, but he is someone I would love to chat with von This Is Horror sooner is certainly a bucket list.

Josh Malerman 37:30
He's a great guy. And I, I was on a panel with him in Chicago, and it was my first time meeting him. So I'm like, nervous, you know, you know, we're all like in this field together, right? You guys asked guys, y'all all these. And we see each other online and all these things. And I hadn't met him yet. And I was nervous. And he walked into the panel and the rest of us, me, Daniel Kraus, and Christina Henry were sitting at the table. And he walked in and he goes, Mr. Malerman, and I was like, what that was, it was just the most like disarming, like, introduction, you know. And, and he was like, and right away, just warm, funny, thoughtful. The panel was the four of us where I thought we made an exceptional team. It was all very, we were able to play off each other and all this. And then from there, I met him and I did an event where we both read from on newer stuff. He read from Mallory actually, and I read a short, short short story of his, and from full throttle. And then we discussed and stuff and leading into that I was I wanted to say I was nervous, but like I'm like, you know, you gotta talk for an hour without a moderator. You know, right. That's some stuff, right? But it was it, it was so natural. And so it's like, it's one of those things where, like, it's one of the things I miss about the conventions right now is being around like minded people that, like, we can talk about horror all day out of nowhere, we're, you know, talking about Ramsey Campbell in the ceremonies and a million other things and, and meaning you just you and you guys can meet tonight. And then like same thing with him. It was just like any, you know, we all just love this shit, man. And I do miss that about the conventions. And I you know, I try not to let it get me to down but there is a sort of like checking in thing about stokercon and scares that care. There's a sort of certain like, like, Oh, yes, you know, I know you're all online, but it really is nice to stand next to you and talk about this new scary book or this or Freddy Krueger, I don't see anything really any sort of acknowledgement that we're all in this same haunted house together. Right. And so, so yeah, so meeting him was a very natural thing, and him and I are going to be doing that event for Mallory.

Michael David Wilson 39:55
Yeah, and I mean, hopefully, you will be able to To do something in the autumn, I mean, yeah, like you say, if you could do it for Halloween, that would be amazing. I mean, I think we're slowly seeing things open back up. I mean, in in Japan, things, really getting back to normal. Of course, we're all wearing masks and washing our hands and social distancing. But pretty much everything is, is now open again. And it does look like that kind of thing is happening with other countries. But obviously, some countries have a better hold on it than others. But wow, what a bizarre year 2020 has been for all of us. And I mean, there's certainly been good things and creative experiments that have came out of it. Speaking of which, carpenters farm, which I mean started off as US serializing, a novel, I mean, writing it from scratch, during this pandemic. And then there was suddenly music and poetry and it almost turned into this creative collaboration. So let's talk about that.

Josh Malerman 41:20
Man, that was unbelievable, because I had tried writing Carpenter's Farm about three years ago or something. And also just really fast. My first short story ever published is called a fiddlehead party on Carpenter's farm, and it was picked up by Doug Murano and de Alexander Ward, my first short story ever. And I always knew that I wanted to eventually write the novel of that I even remember telling them that at the time, I think, and that, but but so that short story was sort of like years before what the novel would eventually be. So then, three years ago, I give it a shot. And I made it 40,000 words. I mean, that's, you know, you're into it at that point. I mean, Mallory 70. Right. So 40 is deep, right? And as just a good time, man, no, there's just as an IT, and I know, somebody listening to this podcast may think I'm always scratching a whole novel is that no, it's that these were like, the two times I did this. But um, but carpenters farm, there was just something like, I think I was trying to write it like, the way that people write, what's the right phrase, like ensemble cast or something? You got to talk about this guy first, then this guy, then this lady then. And it just felt very inorganic, or something. Years later, February of this year. I was like, I don't know, I was outside. And it just I was like, Oh, I know. I know, I know how to write the story. And now, I know that it's about this group of actors. And one of them inherits the farm in Michigan and the rest come visit him because he seems like he's doing too. Well. Yes, he's doing too well. And that's, and what a bizarre thing to think that your friend is doing too well, right. And so it was just lightning bolt where I was like, Okay, I'm writing this in April, then the pandemic comes. And I everyone's strapped for cash. And it's kind of freaky, and very frequently, and my webmaster happened to ask me, Hey, do you want to put up a new free short story on your website? The same ones been up there for like, five years or something? And I was like, Yeah, I do. He's like, but I was like, Oh, I don't have one. He's like, do you want to write one? And we're coming up on April at this point. And I was like, No, I don't want to write a No, I don't want to write like a story right. Now. I want to write Carpenter's Farm write this novel? Can we host the whole novel on them for free? And he was like, Yeah, of course. And then we started talking about serializing. And, and, and this and that. And it was started to become and I called Kristen and I called Del Rey to ask if this is okay to do. And I called Ryan Lewis. And, and everyone was like, Yeah, go for it. Why not? This is a great idea. You're, you're giving a book to readers for free in a moment, where people are strapped for cash and freaked out. You're giving people something serialized other than TV, which that's cool. And you're writing a book that you've been wanting to write forever. So okay, this is a win win for everyone. And, and the only thing that I didn't really take into account was the day that it came out or the day that it started. I didn't fully realize like, oh, shit, now you're strapped in and you have to write a novel live be like, really strike me until that day one when chapters when the first chapters were like posted. And then I put out sort of a bat signal, saying, hey, if anyone wants to do music or art or if you want Add to this at all, like, feel free and I'll post it along with it. And I get this email from a dude in Atlanta. I'm Chris Campbell. And it says like this, you know, the this first part might be a little No, no, when you say, here's, here's, here's to music pieces. I really liked the first one. The second one you might think is cheesy or something. And I literally have no idea what I'm about to hear, right. And I've never met this guy and then I play it and I was like, Wait, whoa, let me ask you have you guys heard his soundtrack for it yet? Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 45:34
And it it's amazing writing music as well were killed visually. You know, when you're probably about young.

Josh Malerman 45:45
I was like, wait a minute, dude. Hold on. This has the the ominous tones of a horror story. It has the acoustic guitar earthiness of the farm, it has like a wide variety just it was just like, this is this is it. And I called him I'm like, I, I do you want to do the next chapter too. And he was like, yeah, and then starting at chapter four, I didn't write to anything except for Christmas music for carpenters farm. And we became then Shane Douglas keen and started writing poems for each chapter. And it became like, um, I wasn't alone on this, like, serialized live event. And when I say live, that means I wrote it, checked it, posted it, you know, so but that's about as live as you can get right? Pretty close. Right? And, and, um, but like I would I would send the night before or two nights before I would send chain and Chris the chapter that he would write a poem, he would write the music and we'd get it off all at the same day. And it was just so freakin thrilling. I never there's only No, I never had a moment where I had to backtrack where I was like, because none of this was mapped out. Like there was no outline or anything. I never had that moment where I had to like, like, oh, shit, I wrote myself into a corner. I gotta like backtrack. But, but I could have, I could have gone back and totally one hammer racing chapter 10 I'm going to put a different one, and then everyone would have got that right. Um, but I never had that moment. It was so fun. It was so amazing. And we all you know, made it all the way through the end. And it was so great that I almost wanted to make the story twice as long just to keep the whole experience going. Because number one, when that when carpenters farm came to an end, I realized like the only now I was just looking at the pandemic and lockdown without having this unfathomably exciting thing to do. And I was like, Oh, shit, because we just had like, the time of our lives together. And now I'm just still now we're all still just on lockdown. But I didn't want to like blowed the book just to do it. Um, so I was like, No, that was it, you know, and I would do another one. But Mallory's coming out. So you understand that mean? That had to sort of be like, that was it that was the end of the end of the experience. Um, I'm going to 100% print vinyl of Chris's soundtrack. He he chopped it down. I thought it should be double vinyl at first, but he chopped it down to from 79 minutes to 40. So it fits on one one album. Um, and him and I are already talking about working on other stuff together. And another even another thing like this, but maybe even like a movie and stuff like that, too. It just really was this incredible thing where people added photos, drawings, drinks that you could drink while you read this book. Poems music. Oh, Michael Bailey wrote an entire novella, like an offshoot novella from this my friend Jimmy Doom wrote an amazing short story about running to touch the house. That whole theme that's in it. Um, it turned out to be like, electrifying, you know, like just kind of a whim of an idea. My webmaster Todd Jackson his his he kind of started at all and also curated at all and everyone involved we all got together when it was done and got absolutely shit canned on over zoom to the point where I think I passed out and Allison kept talking to everyone but it was yeah, man you know enough years go by and I'm sure I will. I'll be talking about Carpenter's Farm with Chris and with Shane, like God that we we did something together there. You know,

Michael David Wilson 49:46
man, how much did you have to drink? Chili

Josh Malerman 49:53
I had almost a whole fifth of whiskey and I also smoked some grass so that not be out. Um, and sometimes that I'm not in drinking shape Allison, I haven't. I think I've drank like maybe twice in the last, like, five months or something. And so and that was one of them. And at one point, I was like, Chris, let's listen to the soundtrack. Um, let's just put, you know, we'll count to three and hit play at the same time. Me over here, you over there, you know, zoom. And we did that. And shortly after that, I woke up the next day.

Michael David Wilson 50:29
Yeah, yeah, I guess just environment was so relaxing. You were like, Okay, I'm just gonna drift off to this. Julie, you did?

Josh Malerman 50:42
Yeah, it was is. It was incredible. And I met like, you know, I could see, I don't know, I like a partnership with Chris like a, like an actual, hey, we do this kind of thing much more often together, you know, and that, um, who Ted Grau turned out. He was the one who tipped Chris off to it. And Chris didn't tell me that at first, like, halfway through it, he's like, Hey, so the author Ted Grant was the one who told me that you that you that you had posted about adding music? And I was like, really? He did that? And he was like, Yeah, and so I wrote, I wrote him. Thank you for that. And all that. And that's, that's one of those examples of how social media can be awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It's important to remember that now and then, you know, Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 51:35
Yeah. And you do find that so much. You're so connected. And so many things intertwine. I mean, we were talking about that with, with Ryan and with you and with Max. And then now that now that's tagged as well. And obviously, like, we all have a connection with Ted, because like, soon after, we'd released a house at the bottom of a lake we released they don't come home anymore. And Ted's been on this as our a numerous times, I think, three times now. So I think I think this conversation mean, he'll be in Chem by one episode. So you know, he's got to come back on now keep the competition alive.

Bob Pastorella 52:21
With carpenters farm is there, there's probably not a need for it. Because you know, it's gonna go to the website. But did you ever envision a physical aspect to it? No.

Josh Malerman 52:36
Well, yes, um,

Bob Pastorella 52:41
if it's something you can't talk about, and no,

Josh Malerman 52:43
no, no, no, no, it is, I don't know what it would look like. Yeah. Because there is a side of me that there's just something so cool about it just existing there for free without reviews without number of views without likes and dislikes without comments, but it's literally just sitting there. And there's something about that, that I absolutely adore in the year 2020. That said, if Delray, were like, hey, you know, and I know that Trisha read it all, and we've talked at length about it. But if she, if she was like, hey, we want to get this book out, I'd be like, Okay. So I don't, I don't know, you know, they are releasing, as you know, how's the dama Lake, they're releasing Goblin, um, they are releasing on this day of the pig. They are releasing spinner black yarn, which is a collection. They are obviously Mallory, and I'm already signed up for the next book with them for next year. So I'm not sure where Carpenter's farm would fit in. See, so I don't know. But I don't know. Maybe if she, she may see it differently. And I could get an email tomorrow about it. But I would be gamed, but I also understand that I don't want to overload them either. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 53:59
right. Yeah. And there's so much that you can tell us about the next book for next year.

Josh Malerman 54:07
Well, I signed the contract for one that I'm like, really excited about. But I got another idea. Now two that I'm really excited about. And I'm gonna I'm going to talk to Trisha at length about both of them. And my instinct tells me that she will be like, let's stick with the one we signed the contract for. But I don't know this other one feels really right, right now, not in a topical political way. Like, Oh, no way. But I mean, although, I mean, it's almost impossible not to want to write something, you know, infused with weight and meaning right now, and to be honest with you, but, um, I just thought, oh, there's something special about this idea. And when those and when those ones come around, where it's not it's not about it being clever. It's more about like, it feels right, you know, um, then I just want to run that by her first and once she, I think one She tells me the yes or no on which one of those then I would probably even put out like a logline or whatever it's about or whatever, at that point.

Michael David Wilson 55:08
Yeah. And do you think if Trisha says, Okay, let's stick to the original idea? I mean, are you tempted after you've written a draft of that to then quickly get some sort of fever dream rough draft of the other one, just because you're excited about it, and you need to kind of get that out your system so that you know that it's not, it's not something that never happens, because I always think it's, it's important to capitalize on that creative energy. But then also, from a practical point of view, you do have to write the books that you're contracted to write. So it's a bit of a tricky one.

Josh Malerman 55:50
Yes, the answer is yes. I'm gonna write one, hopefully in July, but July's very busy with Malorie, but the idea is to write one of them in July and the other one in October, probably, and whichever order that works out, that's fine. I probably actually write the the other one I was telling you about next. Because I do think the one that I signed up with for them needs just that. You guys ever have this with writing where it's like, you got everything, but it still feels like it's missing one little thing, which might even mean removing one little thing. You don't know what it is, but it's just not entirely in focus yet. And, and that one feels a little bit in that spot for me right now. I'm not worried about it. But that other idea, the newer idea feels completely in focus. All right, let's go right in right now. Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 56:42
Feeling of something being out of place on something.

Michael David Wilson 56:45
That's exactly where I was going. So Bob, and I collaborated on Peeper Ritual, a short novel, and we must have started there a few years back now. And there was always something missing, and we weren't quite sure what it was. And then we sent it a few months back to Lisa quickly, McKenzie carer to beta read it. And then something that between them that they said we just knew what that missing ingredient was. And we took it from, at the time a 25,000 word novella to a just under 50,000 word novel. And now we have that missing ingredient. And now it's singing and yeah, we're very happy about that. We're, we're actually looking to independently put that out via This Is Horror for this Halloween. So that is something that we're so excited about.

Josh Malerman 57:44
Guys, sounds amazing. And like, I can't wait for that number one and number two, so you know exactly, yeah, that's, you know, I learned a lot from watching Alison make paintings, whatever, because I'll look at I'll think it's done. What she's doing. And then she she's like, No, no, no, no. And then as a whole other layer and I'm like, Oh, shit, now it's done known enough as a whole other layer. I'm like, Jesus. Wow. And that's exactly what you guys just described. And that's what I still need to do with that idea. It really, but you know, when it's there, you know, you know, you can almost hear it all locked into place. And this is why it's almost there. Everything's it's not in a you know, disarray. Just one little freakin little element is missing. And I'm trying to find that.

Bob Pastorella 58:34
Yeah, so you till you find it. It's like pure torture. But when you do find it, you know, it's like that eureka that? Aha. You know, and I don't know, it's like, when we were we mean, Michael really had to brainstorm. Yeah. And we tried. We tried several different scenarios. And we know it's bad. So yeah, no, no, we know what you're going through. Yeah. Once it clicks. It's gonna be like that. I don't know. It's like Indiana Jones when he finally gets the puzzle to work. And he can continue on in the path or like, in Tomb Raider, when she realizes that she can't throw that switch. And if she jumps out of the way, She'll miss the rolling ball, but she can get through, you know, and yeah, it's like bam. It's like it's locked in and just like, man, you're gonna get there I promise you.

Josh Malerman 59:26
Yeah, I will tell you this. And I know I just want to say I think it's an alien story. That's all I want to say.

Bob Pastorella 59:35
Man and it's really like a big topic right now. Like we're I'm seeing a lot of people get a like a really interest including myself in the in the UFO paranormal. Yeah, yeah, me too. SPECT Yeah. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 59:55
on Twitter. I've seen a lot of that. Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 59:58
cuz the project and I'm one My current solo work in progress is is definitely paranormal, which I attended to get away from it. Because I mean, we were talking about this earlier, a lot of stuff just seems like it repeats itself. You know? And so there's like, you know, there's a temptation for me to put, you know, this The Men In Black aspect of it. But I mean, that's been done to death. So while I can't active, I'm tempted to do it, just for that familiarity at the same time, I'm like, why would I want to do that? You know, it's just, I don't know. I, I'm getting back into it. And obviously, I need to, you know, I've been reading a lot of John keels books. So but

Josh Malerman 1:00:49
good. I have one on my desk right here.

Bob Pastorella 1:00:53
Yeah, he's, he's written a few other than the Mothman Prophecies, which is, which is really cool.

Josh Malerman 1:00:58
I have that here. It's an awesome version. I'm on page. Well, I don't want to tell you, I'm on page 4446.

Bob Pastorella 1:01:09
Yeah, yeah, it's it's a good book and thinking is in his later books, he kind of cannot start to get into this concept of the of the supernatural and the paranormal, because the original school of thought is they were two separate entities. But there's, I don't know that. That's, that's what we're kind of leaned into. It's something that made me think of was no astrology came from, like the occult. You know, astronomy, which is the study of stars came from religion, and I'm the occult. So you know, and we're talking like, you know, centuries of go centuries ago, and it's like, how, how did these two entities get separated? You know, and um, that tried to bring them back together in a way

Josh Malerman 1:02:03
I you know, it has anyone ever written like the like, like the brilliant astrology horror novel, you know, I know I know that there was that like series and you know, um, you know, the whole series like Leo for blah blah, blah. But I'm just trying to think is there any like a brilliant like, astrology horror novel? Am I there could be

Bob Pastorella 1:02:23
12 books in the series though. But yeah, yeah.

Josh Malerman 1:02:28
And 1201 to rule them all. Yes,

Bob Pastorella 1:02:31
yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:36
Yeah, I'm not sure about that. But if anyone knows the venue then you need to tweet as that this is our last night

Josh Malerman 1:02:45
yeah, and well that that that I'm hearing normal as John Tani that I told you about I'm sure if I put out the bat signal on Twitter after this or he would he would send me a list of like 50 books that are at least related to what we're talking about right now for sure.

Bob Pastorella 1:03:00
Yeah,

well yeah that do that because I know that recommended reading list

Josh Malerman 1:03:06
on here guys, he'll blow your freaking lid man he has so many just really wonderful wonderful theories about a million different things and oh my god, I would love for you guys to just have a talk with like a paranormal it's like him that'd be pretty exciting. Yeah, maybe I can either. There's on Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 1:03:24
yeah, you should. Okay.

Josh Malerman 1:03:26
I will.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:33
Thank you as always for listening to This Is Horror if you want the third and final part of the conversation ahead of the crowd, then you can you could be listening to it right now. All you need to do is become a patreon and to do so, you head over to patreon.com forward slash This Is Horror. And you sign up you pledge as little as $1 You get all sorts of perks you get early bird access to every episode, you get to submit questions to each and every guest. You get the patrons only q&a sessions at higher tiers their story unboxed a horror podcast on the craft of writing, and even the video cast stone camera off record. So head over to patreon.com forward slash This Is Horror. Check it out. See if it's a good fit for you. All right before we wrap up quick word from our spawn says

RJ Bayley 1:04:32
it was as if the video had unzipped my skin, slunk inside my tapered flesh and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella 1:04:40
From the creator of This Is Horror comes a new nightmare for the digital age. The Girl in the Video by Michael David Wilson, after a teacher receives a weirdly arousing video is like to send to the paranoia and obsession. More videos follow each containing information no stranger could possibly know. But who's sending them and what do they want? The answers made destroy everything and everyone he loves. The Girl in the Video is the ring meets fatal attraction for iPhone generation, available now in paperback ebook and audio. Mark Tufo, Chris Philbrook and David moody have sold millions of books about the end of the world between them now they're joining forces to destroy the entire universe. A wars raging between gods and demons with an unstoppable interdimensional terror that bleed, destroying everything it touches. From ancient alien civilizations through to modern day London, to the deep space and beyond. Nothing and no one is safe to bleed once flesh, it wants to destroy life. It wants to be worshipped three worlds three authors, the mother of all apocalypses the bleed rupture is released July 14 as a paperback ebook and audiobook exclusive from Audible,

Michael David Wilson 1:05:51
say the last few episodes I have ended with a quote from my own Twitter things that I've been hoping will provide inspiration and help fuel your creativity. Before that, I'd end with a quote from a master of horror or a master of writing. Since I haven't got any feedback as to which you prefer, I don't. Let's mix it up again. Let's end the episode with a high IQ. So bit of a random one you're probably thinking what why why is the end and with a high IQ why not? Tweet me at Wilson the writer why shouldn't you end a horror podcast with a high IQ because that's what's going down. So this is over the wintry by Natsumi Soseki over the wintry forest winds howling rage with no leaves to blow. I'll see you in the next episode for the third and final part with Josh Malerman. But until then, take care yourselves be good to one another, read horror. Keep on writing and have a great, great day.