TIH 404: Laurel Hightower on Whispers in the Dark, Shirley Jackson, and Growing Up in Kentucky

Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to This is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson and every episode alongside my co host Bob pastorella, we chat with masters of horror about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more. Today's guest is Laurel Hightower, and I'm joined by Bob pastorella now, and I believe Bob that you have Laurel's bio.

Bob Pastorella 1:03
Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Laura Hightower grew up in Kentucky, and she lives there now with her husband, son, two rescue animals. By day, she is a paralegal and mid sized firm, but at night, she's a bourbon and beer girl, a fan of horror movies and true life ghost stories. Whispers in the dark, is our first novel, and most recently, she has released crossroads, and that is Laurel Hightower,

Michael David Wilson 1:29
all right. And as with much of these, this is horror podcast conversations. This is a two parter, and we covered a hell of a lot. Of course, we spoke about early life lessons growing up in Kentucky. We spoke about Laurel's journey as a writer, how she got into writing. And of course, we spoke about whispers in the dark and crossroads. What were some of the highlights for you Bob,

Bob Pastorella 2:03
well, I liked whenever she talked about, you know, basically, like, recently, she went on, like, a little ghost hunting adventure. And that was pretty interesting, though it seemed like uneventful. There were some, there was a little creepiness there, you know, and then just, basically, just talking about, you know, her, her routine in writing, and, you know, getting into, you know, talking about whispers in the dark and crossroads, how they were kind of different, yet still a lot of the things the same. So it's just a very interesting and far reaching conversation. I think everyone's really, really gonna love it, all

Michael David Wilson 2:45
right? Well, before we get to it, let's have a word from our sponsors,

Bob Pastorella 2:55
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Michael David Wilson 3:53
Okay, well, with that said, Here it is. It is part one at a conversation with Laurel Hightower on this is horror Laurel, welcome to this is horror

Laurel Hightower 4:10
Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here.

Michael David Wilson 4:12
Yeah, it's good to have you back. Of course, we spoke with you for the launch of their watching alongside Josh maleman Last year, but this is the first time we've actually had you on as a solo guest for the full This is horror treatment, and I mean, it's almost strange, because it feels like you Know we have had you on before because of the conversation we had previously, and also our interactions over the years. But no, this is the first time.

Laurel Hightower 4:52
Yeah, I'm excited to be here. And yeah, I loved taking part of that launch that was so much fun getting to hear y'all reading that. That was so good.

Michael David Wilson 5:01
Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, and a good cameo from your sister. And if people are wondering what the hell I'm talking about, well, you gotta go back to that episode. This isn't meant to inadvertently just start off as a plug for our live launch. Apparently, that's what's happened. So,

Laurel Hightower 5:24
I mean, it's your show and it's your book, I'd plug the hell out of it. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 5:28
that's not really the way we normally start an interview. It's like, thanks for coming on and sharing your time with us. By the way, have you read our book? No, that's not how we normally do things. So before it gets out of hand, I want to know what were some early life lessons that you learned growing up in Kentucky.

Laurel Hightower 5:55
Oh, Kentucky specific ones. Maybe. Well, horses are beautiful, but we'll straight up knock your ass out. Yeah, I have, I have been thrown across a horse stall and lost consciousness when I made contact with the tail board and woke up shirtless about a minute later because he took my shirt. I don't really know why, but that, I guess that's another lesson. Is that a horse may sometimes steal your clothing. Probably, it's not a very well known lesson.

Michael David Wilson 6:29
I mean, that's what we're here for, for all these exclusives, these are the lessons you won't get on the other podcast,

Laurel Hightower 6:36
right? No one's going to warn you. You know about the true danger of horses. They they are clothing thieves. I guess. You know, I really wish that I could say something brilliant about like, the real difference between whiskey and bourbon, but I gotta say, I'm not even really sure. I just look for what's labeled on the bottle so I don't look dumb when I ask for it at the liquor store. But that the beauty of living in Kentucky is we have a ludicrous, ludicrous, expansive choices of whiskey and bourbon. So that's, that's one of the main benefits of living here. I don't know if we have any other but I

Michael David Wilson 7:15
think, I think led Baron and John Langdon just turned off when he couldn't give a definition or a distinction between whiskey and pepper, and so we've lost Laird and John, unfortunately, early doors.

Laurel Hightower 7:30
I should probably have googled that first. I mean, for the love like, how have I gotten this far and not been able to answer that question? It's terrible,

Michael David Wilson 7:36
right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, especially because you said, you know, there are all sorts of bourbon tours that go on in your neighborhood.

Laurel Hightower 7:48
Oh, yeah, yeah, just Yeah. I live Lexington is part of the Bourbon Trail because we have all tech brewery here and distillery, and we might have some other ones in town. But there's Buffalo Trace and, of course, Makers Mark, and just this whole stretch driving through Kentucky, you can just stop at all, all the stops on the Bourbon Trail. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 8:14
I certainly hope we will at some point. And yeah, please do Yeah. Now that we've mentioned it on this is horror. It has to happen under the guise of research. This is hard work.

Laurel Hightower 8:32
It's become part of canon. Yeah, it has to happen

Michael David Wilson 8:33
now. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I wonder what were some of your first experiences with story, and I understand that one of your parents was a writer.

Laurel Hightower 8:48
Yeah, that's right, yeah. My My mom is she wrote primarily mysteries, although she started out with science fiction series, and I think one of the biggest things with that was just kind of having it set in your head early on that storytelling was, was a, you know, a valid career path. It was, it was, you know, art and everything was a worthwhile thing to do. And, you know, we, we all three. I remember my mom got a note home from my sister's teacher once because she was writing these, like slasher these very short little slashers in like fifth grade. And apparently she thought she was going to be in trouble, but apparently they asked her to write another installment for, like the the class sleepover or something. So I think she was, she was always afraid we were going to get in trouble for being the kids who, you know, watched all the horror movies and new words like sociopath when we were like, you know, eight, but mostly it's, you know, I think there's always been a wider audience for horror than anybody really thinks outside of the genre.

Michael David Wilson 9:59
So then it sounds like your parents were quite instrumental in encouraging your love for horror, or certainly didn't discourage it. If you were watching horror and familiar with sociopaths at eight years old.

Laurel Hightower 10:18
Yeah, you know, I kind of can't remember where that came up. I think it might have been we were having a conversation with a dare officer, which, I don't know if you all had that, but Bob, you may have, or the, you know, the drugs you know, that come in and tell you about drugs and all that, and think they asked something about, like, you know, what do you what do you call somebody who you know doesn't care about anyone else? And I was like, sociopath, and it's, you know, probably my, my shining academic moment, right there. I peaked then, but, but, yeah, they, they, um, definitely encourage that. And, you know, we were allowed to read pretty much whatever we wanted and watch whatever we wanted. And my parents are both readers. My husband is too. We're just, you know, books all over the place. So it's, it's one of those things, you know, it's just hugely instrumental. And it's, I actually, really didn't want to write, because the the lifestyle is very, you know, if you, if you take it on full time, which I have not, it's very, it's hard because it, you know, you don't know you've got ups and downs. You don't, you don't always know whether you're going to get another deal or another royalty check. And I'm very much a person who likes to know, you know, what's happening next, but I just, I kind of think in story, and I think in characters, and it's something that I've glad, you know, I've been glad to be able to do, because even if, even if I'd never published, or was never going to be published, I like thinking in that fashion. I like living in my head in that way. So, yeah, I'm definitely glad to have been, you know, to have been raised with that being part of our, our thought process,

Michael David Wilson 11:57
yeah, and given that you were initially resistant to write. I mean, what was the moment where you realized, okay, this is something you have to do. You don't necessarily have a say in the matter these characters and these words, they need to come out.

Laurel Hightower 12:18
It was when I was in college, I I always worked full time. I had one semester when I started college when I didn't have to work, and the rest of the time I worked full time and went to school either full time or half time, whatever I could manage. And so I my my days were crazy busy. It also took me an attorney, to get through school. But you know, I had just been in school and so busy for so long, and you would think, you know, that the last thing I'd want to do would be to write more words, because, you know, I'd have to spend my weekends writing these appellate briefs and all these things. I was in Paralegal school, but I just realized that there were words in my head that I wanted for me. You know, that that once I was done with all that stuff, I had stories in my head. I had, you know, characters that Wanted Life breathed into them, and and, you know, in some ways, it's, it's almost a little bit like just transferring your fantasy or your imaginary world onto the page. And there's joy in that, because you get to revisit it, and you get to tweak it, and you get to to really answer the question of what happens next. And so, yeah, I mean, I got that comment a couple times from friends, like, I can't believe you're reading, you know, for pleasure. I can't believe you're doing this while you've got all this school. And I'm just like, but that, you know, that's what combats it, that's, that's what makes it yours, you know. And kind of pushes back against the sense of duty on everything else,

Michael David Wilson 13:38
yeah. And I love the way you put it, words in my head that I wanted for me that's just perfect.

Laurel Hightower 13:48
Well, I'm interested to I mean, I always think that's so interesting too. I mean, when, when did you guys know that that was something that you

Bob Pastorella 13:56
wanted to do? And I was thinking back to my college days, and I went through the same thing. I couldn't stand reading the assignments in college. I mean, I hated it, and I but, you know, my, I guess my classmates were kind of like, you know, a lot of them weren't readers, and so they, they, they would have their nose in the book just trying to get it to they could, you know, get the grade. But then, you know, they catch me in the library, and I've got books on demonology, and, you know, like, are what classes that for? And I'm like, well, it's just, you know, it's personal reading. And like, You mean, like, you know, reading, like, outside of the work, when he have time. I'm like, you make time, yeah, you know. And it's like, my, my, my dad was, you know, he inspired me to read. And he got to a point to where he was playing golf more, and he was reading, and he he just said, basically, that he didn't really have time to read the book. Had. Really grab him. So I'd have to go and find him stuff that would just really, really grab him. And a lot of times, something that I really, really liked he didn't like. And he just like, I just really don't have time to read anymore. And I'm like, Man, you have to find the time to read that. You know, you have to find it. And I tell those people all the time. I have co workers who used to read they don't read them. I don't have time. I'm like, you have to find a time. How do you find a time? You find the time. You know, to me, I think once you're a reader, you're always a reader, maybe you step away from it for a while. But, I mean, you know, going back to what your question was, I think I was, I was probably about 12 or 13 when I realized I wanted to be a writer. And then, you know, I was, I've also discovered I was pretty terrible at it. So, so now I'm 54 and I'm like, Yes, validation, you know. So,

Michael David Wilson 15:59
I mean, first of all, I want to acknowledge that you just Jonathan Jan's desk, which is the act of turning the interviewer into the interviewee. So don't think that I didn't notice what just happened, and that

Bob Pastorella 16:14
did feel familiar, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 16:18
Yeah, classic Jan's tactic. But I mean, my my answer feels almost cliched, because this is something kind of, in a sense, always been doing. And I mean, my grandmother told me ghost stories from a very young age, probably a too young age. I don't know what the fuck she was thinking, really. So that kind of instilled my love for, I guess, horror and the supernatural and things of that nature. And I mean, I've always been a voracious reader. I've grown up in a house with books, and so writing and then storytelling has just been something that came very naturally for me. So I mean, I think as as long as I've been able to speak, I've been making up stories and then writing stories. So there was never a definitive moment where I thought, wait a minute, this is something I've had, I had to do because it's something I've always been doing. And congratulations again on dancing, yes.

Laurel Hightower 17:40
Well, I like that, though, because it's, it's one of the things I sort of enjoy exploring with part of it too. It, it's an interesting, um, way to grow up when, you know, when you're a parent like because she, she didn't just do it part time, and in the way that I do, she did it full time. And my parents separated when I was 11, and she supported three teenage children as a single mother, you know, just solely by writing, and she did it quite successfully. And when I was a kid, that was no big deal, you know, I was just like, what your your mom doesn't lock herself in her office for 12 hours a day and tell you to piss off when you want lunch. You know, it's this. I thought this was just what parents did and, you know, but she, you know, to feel like that's something that is just something you can reach out and do. It's, it's, it's extremely beneficial, you know, in in deciding whether you're going to do it. And because I grew up like that, because I grew up with the knowledge and the feeling that you know, if you, if you want to do this, you can, you know, you have the, at least the base knowledge of how to do these things. Because, y'all, she ripped our papers to shreds, like edited, and I wish I was joking, but like kindergarten papers with red marks all over. Just, you know, it was so harsh, but it was great. I mean, it meant that my papers, when I got to be older, and, you know, they were going on portfolios and graded, I did really well. So it was cool to have that skill. But, you know, in sort of venturing into the world and meeting other people who want to write, I think I'm sure you all have run into this too, where people will commonly call themselves an aspiring writer or a wannabe, or they'll say something a little bit self deprecating, because they feel like, for some reason, they haven't earned that title, you know, they might feel hesitant about it. And just something that I've noticed, it's, you know, I just want to just open my arms and say, guys, if you're writing, if you want to write, you are a writer, you've got your words, you know, make of it what you can, what you will. And I don't know it's just something that I really like exploring is seeing when people made that decision, that they felt like it was something they could do, you know, or that, or that would make them happy at the very least.

Michael David Wilson 19:56
Yeah, I feel that. I mean, as you're saying. Calling yourself an aspiring writer, it's just that you haven't got the confidence yet to label yourself as a writer, even though that's exactly what you're doing. And I think some people, they're looking for permission to call themselves a writer, but actually the permission. It comes from within. You're the one giving yourself the permission. So if you're listening to this and you look at your Twitter bio, and you're like, oh shit, there it is. Aspiring. You could edit it right now. You're not an aspiring writer. You're a writer. God damn it. So do that? Make that edit right now. Don't switch off the podcast. There's a lot of exciting conversation coming, even though, even though, obviously this is in real time, so I don't know what that is yet, but trust me, some of the things Laurel says, particularly in the second hour. Oh, my God, so you don't want to turn this to find out? Yeah, yeah, yes,

Bob Pastorella 21:10
I'm excited,

Michael David Wilson 21:13
but I wonder as well. I mean, what does your writing routine look like at the moment. And I mean, how is your work as a paralegal influenced your routine and approach to writing?

Laurel Hightower 21:30
I am very, very lucky right now because, and I love my job. It's very interesting. I do mostly litigation with some intellectual property, and it's, I really just enjoy doing it, and there's a lot of writing and reading in that, and so, you know, it's cool to be able to kind of apply that. But, you know, the pandemic was, was hell as it was on, really all of us. And I ended up, I just was, we didn't have, you know, daycare, so I just was on all the time, and I never got any kind of a break. And around April, March or April, I kind of realized I was burning out, and I talked to my boss about it, and they allowed me to drop to full time, I mean, part time. So I'm really lucky in that right now. I don't work until one, I work from one to six, and before that, I spend some time with my kid, and then drop him off late, and then I then I get to write some so I usually get to spend about an hour and a half or so a day, like in the mornings before I have to start doing other stuff, getting to work. And that's been big because it's just been ages since I've, I've, you know, been able to carve out time to really write that's like, you know, this is a convenient time, and I can do it. And of course, I've got all these ideas and everything all built up because of, you know, I kept, I was just waiting for this opportunity. I haven't had it that long. And so now I feel like I'm, like, getting bottlenecked with, like, you know, I keep coming up with more ideas and everything but, but I'm very fortunate to have set time, for the most part, every day, where I get to work on it pretty peacefully. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 23:10
it's always difficult as well, when you're working on something and then new ideas are turning happen. It's like, wait a minute, get in line. I can't deal with this yet.

Laurel Hightower 23:24
Yeah, the lure of the new works in progress when you're, you know, especially if you're under deadline on something, you know, that's never the thing you want to work on. It's, it's always the shiny new stuff, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 23:35
oh, I

Bob Pastorella 23:36
know. It's like, just when you get done and you they come knocking, hey, burn that idea. I figured it out for you, you know. And you're just like, Oh no, no, no, no, you go away. I don't need you no more. I need you later. I need this right now. Then you start thinking weird shit, like, maybe I can combine the two.

Laurel Hightower 24:06
You know, maybe I could just make a new job at once. Yeah, make the new genre, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 24:13
So this is like technical writing romance, yeah, yeah.

Laurel Hightower 24:19
Romance belongs in almost everything. I firmly believe that I don't think you have to shoehorn it in, but I think romance belongs everywhere,

Michael David Wilson 24:28
maybe not in intellectual property litigation, but you tried to shoehorn it in, it's like there's this steamy scene in the middle. What the fuck

Laurel Hightower 24:44
all kinds of things happen when people represent themselves with no attorneys. There we go. You can run across anything. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 24:52
I wish that you had permission to talk about it, because, quite frankly, that sounds like the kind. Content that we're after.

Bob Pastorella 25:03
Podcast,

Michael David Wilson 25:04
yeah,

Laurel Hightower 25:05
oh yeah, I do want to continue being employed, so I'll hold off for now one of these days. Well,

Michael David Wilson 25:11
when, when you retire, you need to contact us for the sexy litigators podcast, quite the niche. But I think we can do it. I

Laurel Hightower 25:23
think so too.

Michael David Wilson 25:29
Well, I mean a number of your stories, I mean include ghosts and ghostly experiences. So I wonder, what does the word ghost mean to you?

Laurel Hightower 25:45
Oh, I mean, from a visceral standpoint, it's immediate excitement. It's, you know, it's immediate. Yes, I want, I want to know what this is. I want to experience it. I want to hear whatever story is behind it. I love ghosts. I never get tired of it as a topic, real ghost stories, you know, fiction in any of that stuff, I absolutely love. But from, I guess, like in, like an existence standpoint, I mean it, you know, there's and I believe in ghosts completely. I think probably not everything that someone believes is a ghost that they've seen really is one, but I think that they're there, and I think you know that they're that some of, some of it is is residual energy. And you know, that's not, that's not a unique view on that. But I do think you know, it's one of those things, like if people are angry in a room, if they're really angry, or something like that. It's like you can feel it, you know, in the air. So it makes perfect sense to me that that could leave an imprint somewhere and and that you could experience those types of emotions just by kind of walking into their world or passing through where they've been. But, I mean, I also fully believe that that a form of spirit or soul travels sometimes either lingers or is able to, you know, to come hang out or, you know, check on things, or communicate in some way. So it's, you know, it's probably a few different things, but it's always something I'm interested in. What

Michael David Wilson 27:20
was your first supernatural experience?

Laurel Hightower 27:26
I don't even know if I would know which one my first one was, because, you know, when you're a kid, you're not really, I mean, I wasn't ever really sure what the validity of some of my experiences were, you know, so I don't, I think I feel like I saw things, you know, when I was much littler, but I don't know if they were real, but I know that. I mean, and I'm Southern, so this is kind of a thing with us, too. But I feel like most of the time when I've had a relative pass away, they they stop by in one way or another, and so, you know, I've seen them in mirrors. I've seen them, you know, just standing behind me, I've heard voices and I felt touches. I probably the most is just so opinionated of him. But my my uncle passed away when I was about 18, I think, and I was dating, as one does, a complete Jack wit, and I inherited a an answering machine from my uncle, just, you know, an old like, and had little digital readout thing. And it was like, had the phone built into it. And I broke up with this awful boyfriend, but then, like, immediately regretted it, because, you know, I was 18, and the phone would never dial his number again. I tried so many times and it would never dial it, but it would pop up, like, suggestions, like, it would be like, how about your sister? What about your mom? Thinking about your friend, Joey. Joey could answer, and I'm just like, Are you kidding me? And it just, I mean, it's, you know, I'm sure someone would argue with me that there's a perfectly logical explanation, but I don't care. Was exactly the sort of opinionated thing that he would have

Michael David Wilson 29:11
done, even if there is a logical explanation. I just love the way that it's like, no, you ended this relationship for a reason, you ain't ringing him.

Laurel Hightower 29:27
I think you know, especially, I have a stepson who's 26 and you know, when you raise kids and you you watch people go back through that sort of status when they're in their teenager, teenage years, and like, I wish I could send like, like a guardian angel dating ghost to some of these kids to be like, no, no, nope. Sorry. You're not gonna Nope. You're not gonna call that person. You're not gonna text them. I think, yeah, fabulous service,

Michael David Wilson 29:48
yeah. I just wonder though, if we didn't make these terrible dating choices and date these completely wrong people for us. I. Mean, would that then make it more difficult to find the right people, you know, having no reference point to realize what is a good and what is a bad relationship that

Laurel Hightower 30:11
is a good point, and probably would require another type of guardian angel, ghost. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 30:16
So basically, what we're doing is we're kind of forming this agency of ghosts, no different specialisms.

Bob Pastorella 30:28
It's like an agency of relationship, help through ghost.

Speaker 1 30:34
I like it, yeah, all right. We

Bob Pastorella 30:37
can have, like, living it, you know, goes to who are, you know, don't want to, you know, just stay with me. And then you have, you know, Neville. It goes through like, I think he's good, you know. So that could be like a story. I could see something like that.

Laurel Hightower 30:56
You got warring factions there. You have, like, the good agency that that has their interests at heart, and the bad ones, I like that. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 31:05
yeah. Well,

Michael David Wilson 31:07
this is the second podcast review, and the second time we've started to create a story. I can't even recall the exact specifics of the first time, but I believe we, we were talking about a film. Realized none of us really knew what happened, so we just invented what might have happened.

Laurel Hightower 31:33
Oh yeah. It was like, like, the something about somebody in a window, like they saw something, yeah. But it Yeah, I remember that,

Bob Pastorella 31:41
oh yeah. Like, I'm round robin, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 31:44
yeah,

Bob Pastorella 31:47
you know. And it's like talking about ghosts for the longest time. I don't know, I feel kind of bad even admitting this, but I didn't like ghost stories. They I guess I ran into, like a bunch that just felt the same, and, you know, and you grow up reading Stephen King and Peter strob and all that, you know. And so you get, I guess, you get a little jaded, you get a little cynical. So for the longest time, I avoided them because I didn't really like them, because I felt they were all the same, but I have discovered over the last couple years that ghost stories, whether in the written word or television series or movie, are really the things that creep me out the most.

Michael David Wilson 32:36
Oh yeah,

Bob Pastorella 32:39
because they're so it's, it's, in other words, like, it's hard to explain, but it, it's unlimited the possibilities, because you can have, you know, touch, sound, smell, sight, you know, all your senses can be, you know, totally evoked. You have, you know, writers like Peter Straub and stuff like that to use, like, I guess, what I would call remnants. These are, like, physical ghost like, they have like, weight, they have presence. They're not undead. They're ghost. And when you start thinking of it like that, you're like, Well, man, ghosts are actually pretty fucking cool, you know. But I mean, for the longest time, I'm just like, if somebody would say, yeah, it's a ghost story, be like, I'm not interested. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm a recent convertee, but I mean it's like for, probably for 15 years. I was like, Nah, I want to read that. I'm not going to watch that movie like paranormal activity. I was like, I've seen the first one. I was like, This is dumb, you know, yeah, but I watched it again a couple, a couple years later because it just happened to be on and it creeped me to fuck out. I was just like, oh shit. Maybe I was just watching it at a bad time.

Laurel Hightower 34:01
Yeah, yeah. Well, you, you said in the last couple years you'd run across that, what else have you read or seen that that brought you over to our side?

Bob Pastorella 34:12
Well, I mean, definitely, you know, honey, Hill House, yes, oh yeah, the series, and, you know, and then, I don't know it's like a another one that I really like, the witching window. Basically, it's kind of like, you know, it's got a ghostly presence. I think what burned me out on it was the Amityville Horror, because it was just so just and, you know, I think, the thing that pissed me off about it, too, was the fact that that I was, that I was that kid in schools, like, what this was real, you know, then you find out, you know, that it wasn't real. Then, you know, the most of the shit was just completely just, you know, made up. And as I think I got pissed, I was like me, it ghostly, even real, man, you know. So I. I was pretty, probably pretty pissed off about it, and I never really looked back. I got into like, aliens and monsters and vampires, which are kind of like because they're

Michael David Wilson 35:08
real. Yeah, that makes sense.

Bob Pastorella 35:15
The logic really wasn't there.

Laurel Hightower 35:19
Well, they hadn't betrayed you they hadn't betrayed you, though, so,

Bob Pastorella 35:22
you know, yeah, I felt, I felt betrayed. And I don't know, it's just, you know. And then I read, you know, I started reading more, more ghost, I guess, oriented stuff. But I don't know. I think it also have, uh, again, I probably won't pronounce it right. I have pareidolia, if you know what that is, that's where you see, like, things that aren't really what they are. Like, you know, like a, like a coat thrown up against, you know, on the back of a chair, could be a person sitting in a chair. And when, yeah? So yeah, a lot of people have this, and mine is compounded when I take off my contacts and don't wear my glasses because everything is blurry anyway. So I have, uh, thoroughly convinced myself that I had someone, uh, sleep in my bed. It was a pillow. Um, there was someone, yeah, I mean, so you can, I guess I've had to kind of like this love, hate relationship with ghost, you know. But it's always like, it's like, you know, because it was scared of shit out of me. And then it'd be like, Oh, it's just my pillow, you know. So it's like this, oh, well, you know, ghosts really don't affect me then, you know, and then I'm watching, like, haunting Hill House and stuff like that. And I'm like, you know, some of the, some of the stuff that, what was that book that really, really enjoyed? Oh, sundown motel by Simone St James. Is

Laurel Hightower 36:56
that good? I haven't read that. That

Bob Pastorella 36:58
book creeped me to fuck out. It's really good. Highly recommend

Laurel Hightower 37:05
it. Love to collect ghost stories. I just read one that's that's very recently been released. The author's name is Sh Cooper, and it's called inheriting for ghosts. It's very gothic, just super atmospheric. A really great, strong main character, and a couple of dogs, which is awesome. And just some scenes in there that just, I mean, made me about throw my candle across the room, just, you know, it was, it was just so good. And I think that's what I love, is the versatility of it, you know, just just that there are so many different ways that ghosts can creep you

Bob Pastorella 37:45
the hell out. And I'm discovering that. And it's is I say, I use the word discovering. I've known this. I've just ignored it. I guess I was kind of a snob about it, but I'm coming around and, you know, so I'm definitely going to check out that book, because I've also, you know, started reading some stuff that I guess would be considered Gothic. But yeah, I mean, it's just, I've come around on on Ghost compared to the other real monsters, like Michael Cohen so

Michael David Wilson 38:25
well moving along whispers in the dark is a paranormal police procedural, but one of the major influences is Shirley Jackson, so talk us through that. Well,

Laurel Hightower 38:45
yeah, and it's, you know, I definitely don't want to say that my writing style is, is like hers or anything. You know, it's definitely not that that same sort of tale, but The Haunting of Hill House, and I loved, I loved the Flanagan adaptation, was just excellent. And I know some people were kind of annoyed because they felt like this, you know, especially with the ending, the spirit of it wasn't right, but I did, and it's a different, it's a totally different art piece. Anyways, you know, putting it on the screen like that. But The Haunting of Hill House is still the book that the first book that gave me like a jump scare reading. And I was just so enthralled by that and, and I just thought, you know, I want to do that to somebody. I, you know, I want to put something on the page that that creeps somebody out enough just in reading it, you know, that it gives, it gives them a similar feeling to to feeling like they've seen a ghost or watching a movie, you know, where, where something kind of comes at you, like that. So, yeah, I mean, I think that was really where, and I read that really young, but the scene where Theo and Nell. Know, you know, she's saying, don't, you know, quit, stop squeezing my hand so hard. And it's like, you know, I'm

Michael David Wilson 40:05
not yeah at all. Yeah.

Laurel Hightower 40:07
It's like, whose hand Am I holding? And I've just about jumped out of my skin. And, I mean, it's just beautifully, beautifully done. Yeah? I just thought I want to do that to people. I want to scare the hell out of

Michael David Wilson 40:17
them. Yeah? Yeah. I mean that that is a scene that nobody forgets so iconic, right? I imagine, as well as The Haunting of Hill House that you must have, you know, consumed and been influenced by a number of Jackson's other texts as well. I mean, they, they all have this almost magical quality to them.

Laurel Hightower 40:44
Yeah, and there's just, there's a tone of just this instant, it's almost like, it's almost like it lulls you a little bit, because there's sort of, it's a bit quiet, you know, but you just know that there's this inexorable dread, like there's no way this is going to turn out. Well, you know, there's, there's definitely something waiting for you. And she's just one of those authors that I feel like, it sounds a little bit corny, but I feel like she it's a promise that you get from certain authors, that you know that no matter what they write, you're going to open that page, and you're going to be into it, you know, and it's, it's weird, because it's like, you know, and I'm sure he gets tired we talk about it, but Jonathan, Jan, is one of those authors. For me, no matter what he writes, he has such, you know, this huge catalog of just total range of stuff, and a lot of it is so brutal, but I just realized it's comfort reading for me, because I have every faith, and no matter what it is, whatever I pick up of his and start reading like it's going to be good. You know, it's, there's, there's a promise there that he keeps. And Shirley Jackson is like that for me as well. It's just, and it's such, I don't know, it's such a pleasure, I feel like, and you all may have experienced this too, you know, before, you kind of stumble upon the indie horror shelves and everything you you just feel like you're very limited in what's available. And I, you know, there's a lot of disappointment, because you you go check out what's in the library and and it sucks maybe, or, you know, you run through everything that's that's readily available. And so when you get enough of that, then when you discover new authors who are able to keep that promise, it's just this, this incredible thrill. You know, I have bookshelves now that are full of books that I haven't read, and that's just beautiful, because that means when I'm ready to read something new, I get to go peruse, like my own shelves. It's, I don't know it's fun. I love it.

Michael David Wilson 42:43
Yeah, and talking about ranging work. I mean, if we look at whispers in the dark, as I say, a police procedural and very action heavy, but then you look at crossroads, which was shortlisted for the this is horror novella of the year, so let's give that a bit of a plug. But it, I mean, it's, it's grief horror, it's much more understated. It's more subtle in its approach. But I mean, both are incredibly effective, and both, I mean, have really been very well received as well.

Laurel Hightower 43:26
Thank you. Yeah, I've been, I feel like I've been lucky in that, you know, to have kind of found my audience on it. And, yeah, it's, it's just to, you know, to me, it's, I don't feel like I had as clear of an idea of everything that horror could be. I've always felt like I was somebody who didn't understand symbolism very well. I just have always thought in a very literal and linear fashion, you know, to a degree that could be like, in some ways, like embarrassing. You know, when you're growing up, it's like, you can't, I couldn't, you know, I couldn't catch hold of the symbolism or the joke on something. I'm just like, I don't understand why these words don't mean exactly what you said, you know. And I feel like, from a from experiencing horror and finding all these sub genres that I didn't know were there, and that horror can be something other than just, you know, a leads to B, leads to C, leads to D, you know. And certain of these elements are there, and things happen, and there's a ghost, and maybe people die, or, you know, whatever, and whispers in the dark was kind of my what I, you know, what I wrote when, what I really just wanted was ghosts on the page, and I wanted this cool protagonist, you know, who was, who was complicated, but was perfectly capable of kicking ass. You know, that's, that's what I wanted, because it was what I wanted to read. And by the time I wrote crossroads, I just, I feel like I'd experienced so much other type of horror and saw that there were different ways that that sort of thing could man. Fest. And, you know, I by that point too, when I got the idea for that my stepson was in his early 20s, and he was driving and terrifying the hell out of us, of course. And, you know, I had, I had my younger son as well. And it's, you know, it just that kind of thing hits you on, what if, you know, what if the horror isn't the ghost showing up, you know? What? If it's what, if it's that you don't want it to leave. So it's, I don't know. There's such a range to experience in, you know? And what's available to read. It's, I don't know. It's opened a lot. It's opened a lot of worlds for me,

Michael David Wilson 45:38
yeah, and to just briefly detour back to whispers in the dark. I mean, I do wonder, obviously, like we said, you were resistant to write for a long time. How did you then go from initial idea to being published via journal stone, talk us through the steps in terms of the whispers in the dark origin story.

Laurel Hightower 46:11
Yeah, I don't even remotely remember when I started writing that I the first book that I wrote was called Dark harbor, and it's fucking awful. And I like to say as often as possible, please do not Harper Lee, me when I die, please nobody publish that. There's a reason that first saw the light of day, but whispers was what I wrote after that, after I'd kind of, you know, taken off the training wheels, and I remember I went to Memphis to do some research. I had a friend at the time who was on the the a member of the the Shelby County Sheriff's Office. So he was, you know, he was a cop, and he did SWAT and everything down there was, you know, it was interesting to kind of hang out with him some and hear what he was in the middle of. And, yeah, so, I mean, it took a long time to get it written and kind of polished up, and the this is where I was kind of like to plug, you know, and, and I totally get because for some writers, it really destroys their process to use an outline. But I love outlines, and I love planning, because it prevents me from wandering for hundreds of pages and directions that you know never end up going anywhere. So hopefully it won't take me nine years to write the next novel, but at that point, then so and I'll say here, I rode this nepotism train by God, submitted it to my mother's agent, because he agreed to look at it. He read it, liked it, and agreed to shop it out. And, yeah, we ended up placing it with journal stone so that that was that, that was that particular path,

Michael David Wilson 47:56
yeah. And what, what was the general experience working with Jan or Stan.

Laurel Hightower 48:03
It was good. I really Scarlett Algie, and I feel like I'm probably always going to mispronounce that, and I always forget to ask her exactly what's pronounced but, but it's al G, E. She's their editor, and I think at the at this point, I think she's like their acquiring editor, but she's she's got a great, very keen eye, and so working with her was really good. She was very fast, very responsive. And, you know, they, I really love their covers. That's just one of the things that's so important to me, you know, is to have a really well done eye catching cover, you know. So, they did that kind of thing. I learned a lot about that too. You know, just as far as maybe, I think a lot of us run into this where you don't realize, you know, how much you have to market yourself. So I kind of learned as I went on that kind of thing. But yeah, I mean, I'm happy with the finished product and and it was a really good first step in the journey, I think.

Michael David Wilson 49:04
And so on the note of marketing, I mean, what tips do you have for those who are perhaps getting ready to launch their first book? What are some marketing do's and don'ts?

Laurel Hightower 49:20
Um, well, it's this is, you know, especially because sometimes it can be an interesting kind of an atmosphere. But probably the single biggest thing that has advanced my writing career has been becoming a member of the Twitter community. I really fought against it. I did not particularly care for social media. I'm very much an introvert, and I have huge social anxiety. So the more interactions that I have, the more things I have to obsess over later, about what I said wrong, or, you know, did wrong. Didn't want to, want to go plunge myself into Twitter. And do that. But, of course, now I'm a horrible, horrible addict. But, I mean, I've made connections that there's no other way that I would have I would never have known, you know, of you guys, of this podcast. I wouldn't have known anything about it. I would never have made contact with with Ryan Lewis. You know, my media agent, your media agent, all of these things, and most of my audience, especially originally, I mean, God love the reviewers in this community, because it's an, you know, it's an unpaid and often thankless job, and but, I mean, you know, shout out to sci fi and scary they they were my first, like, big review. I submitted it to them and, and they did a they did a review. They thank God liked it, and because they're not afraid to tell you if they don't. But it really that that really started building up buzz, and really started, you know, kind of making connections elsewhere. So, I mean, yeah, as as much as it maybe sounds horrible to you, I would recommend getting involved in Twitter. And you know, just kind of the biggest things on it are, you're not, you're not going to know initially everything to do. That's right from an etiquette standpoint. I don't care what anybody says. So if you do something, if you screw up, if you send somebody a request in the wrong way, maybe if you say something wrong or something, just learn from it, you know, apologize where it's appropriate, and just learn better and do better. And then, when you become more experienced, be more forgiving of new authors who maybe screw up like that too. I don't know, I probably wandered away from that,

Michael David Wilson 51:46
no, a little bit, but I think is good advice, and I recall too as well that, I mean, your book really blew up on Instagram. There were a lot of people who were posting photographs and reviews of it. So, I mean, I imagine, particularly with such a striking cover as well that that was of benefit to you,

Laurel Hightower 52:16
absolutely, yeah and yeah, that's it's one of those things I am really, really terrible at using Instagram myself, but it's definitely one of those things that I benefit hugely from, the Instagram and Bookstagram community, you know, be they reviewers who do who do it consistently, who are awesome, you know, or just people who read it and want to throw up a picture of it and, you know, and a and a shout out. I mean, it's every every little bit gets you in the public eye some, and maybe puts your book in front of somebody who really is going to enjoy that. Because, you know, that's that's huge for me. That's the most rewarding thing is when somebody really connects, you know, with with that story or with that character. And it's not going to happen for everybody. And I'd like to take this opportunity to say, if you if you read one of my books, you start and you hate it, throw it across the room, stomp on it. Don't continue reading it, because reading is supposed to be fun. So, you know, go and DNF that thing and read something else. But I just, I think it's great that, yeah, and I mean, gosh, I found some really cool books just by following books to grammars as well, you know, and reading reviews and things like that. It's just, it's, it's a invaluable resource. But yeah, another word of advice is just treat your reviewers Well, buy them drinks and or chocolate, you know, and just, you know, be kind and be patient with everybody.

Michael David Wilson 53:49
Yeah, I think that's good advice for treating human beings. Generally. You have an AR or not a reviewer, this is true, yeah. I mean it, it's a good message as well to not be afraid to put a book down and say, I'm not going to finish it. Because there are a number of people who you know, once they start a book, they have to finish it. But, I mean, if you're absolutely resenting it and every moment, then just, just put the fucking thing down. It's okay. It doesn't even mean it's a bad book. All it means is it isn't for you, or it isn't for you at this time in your life, that's fine. Find a book that is for you, life's too short.

Bob Pastorella 54:43
That's real important. I tried to read Thomas lagani When I was in my early 20s, and really couldn't get what everybody was talking about. You know, thought Stephen King had given me, like a kind of like lied to me in this blurb. You know, and then I tried him again in my 30s, and I still didn't get it. I still didn't get it. And I tried him again in my late 40s, and I'm like, God damn, I wish I'd have gotten it as sooner, because you never know how. I mean, you It all depends on where you're at in your life, that's that's the thing. And I just happened to be at that right point at the right time, and boom. Doesn't mean that that summer's like, if you can't finish it now, set it aside. Read something else. Come back to him later. You know, mine come down. The fact that you just fucking hate the book, that's fine, you know? But, I mean, you might not six months down the road, you might give it a shot, and there you go.

Michael David Wilson 55:47
Yeah, yeah.

Laurel Hightower 55:48
I think the, I think that at that time, Michael is a really good, you know, kind of caveat to add to that, because, as Bob just demonstrated, that's definitely part of it is that sometimes it's not the right time for you to be reading that book. And you know, some of it I keeps, I keep saying, like, I feel terrible for releasing a book like Crossroads during a pandemic, when we were all in like, mental hell, you know, because it's just like, my god, could you think of something more depressing? Really high tower. Good job. Thank you. You know. And and the number of people that I've told, like, in my personal life, who, you know, very kindly wanted to support me. They're like, about your book? I'm like, okay, don't read it right now. You know, wait to you in a really good spot. Because, you know, I just, I don't know. I want people to enjoy reading, and I feel bad that on my timing there a little bit. But you know, what are you going

Michael David Wilson 56:40
to do? Yeah, well, no, I guess you know it depends from individual to individual, but sometimes you want to read a kind of grief, horror or a depressing greed, to forget about the depression and the sorrow in your own life. So it kind of kind of depends, really, how you approach these things. I guess too, you could think, Oh, this is even worse than what's happening to me. Or if you think what's happening to you is even worse, it's like, oh, well, you know, it wasn't as bad as what happens to me. So it's okay. I'm not too depressed. I see it no follow up to that. You mentioned Ryan Lewis is your media agent. Is there anything you can tell us about you, media, news, possible adaptations, things of that nature, or is this a example of something I will be editing out because the answer is no,

Laurel Hightower 58:01
yeah, I'm with it's so funny because Josh mailer Mina said a couple times, like, I don't understand why I can't just say things. This is I just want to say things, you know, and I kind of get that. But I'm also like, I'm the person who doesn't really believe that a publishing deal has gone through until the book's like, already in my hands. Like, I keep waiting for someone to change the mind, you know, so there's probably not anything specific I can say, except that it's Crossroads is being looked at by some folks and and I've talked to some very cool people, and it would be really awesome. So some of the people I've talked to have some really interesting, very cool ideas about how to adapt it. And Ryan gave me really, really good advice the first time we talked, which was that he said, You know, it's good to look at this as a totally different art form. It's, it's good if you can, if you can, just say the book is the book, and it stands alone, and any sort of media adaptation of it is a different animal altogether. And I feel like that's very true. You know, the the big thing that I said was just like, well, you know, as long as no one wants to make it like, racist or, you know, misogynist, or, like, cast it with a bunch of Nazis. I'm okay, you know, don't, don't, don't make it a message that I can't, that I don't want to be attached to. But otherwise, I, you know, I would love to see what somebody would do with it. So, yeah, it's, it's being, it's being looked at some and, you know, crossing fingers and toes. And it would be really cool. I would love to see it,

Michael David Wilson 59:41
yeah, and I mean, in terms of my own approach, I'd certainly go along with the Ryan Lewis school of thought there. I mean, I see an adaptation as almost like a cover song, an interpretation, a riffing on the theme. So I don't get too precious about that kind of thing. It's like, well, you you do what you want, but you know, I understand the people that do that's a completely valid, you know, point of view too. And of course, I mean, Stephen King wasn't so happy with Kubrick's The Shining because of how much it deviated, amongst other reasons. But I just think, yeah, like you say, the book, it stands alone. It still exists. So, yeah, let's see what, what happens with the cover, and if I think it was Sean Hudson, of all people, who said that his approach is, well, if it's adapted into a film and it's really good, he can say, well, of course it was really good. It was based on my book. And then if it's not any good, you can say, well, it wasn't the book was, it doesn't matter.

Laurel Hightower 1:01:07
That's fantastic. I'm gonna steal that. Yeah, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 1:01:11
Like that. That when the road came out and they had Carmen McCarthy on the set, and they had a real quick, brief interview with with him and the interviewer just, you know, and I guess, probably just not used to asking someone of his caliber a question. It's like, well, what do you think about the changes that make to the book? And karmic said that they haven't changed the book at all. It's still on the shelf.

Laurel Hightower 1:01:38
Yes, awesome. Yeah, that's very true.

Bob Pastorella 1:01:43
In other words, like, that's what, you know, we're talking about, what Ryan is like, you need. I wouldn't want anybody to hurt anything that I felt was my precious. But at the same time, it's, it's a movie, you know, it's like, and you might have very little control over what happens? It's a, it is, it is a completely different art form,

Laurel Hightower 1:02:06
yeah, yeah. And I don't, I think it's a very interesting process. I do not write screen screenplays. I don't do any screenwriting, and I don't really know, you know how I would start on something, so I'm perfectly happy for someone else to adapt it. And I think that's one of those things that I'm at least at the moment, my mind doesn't work in a fashion that I can say, you know, this is what would play well on a screen, and this is how much screen time you'd need for this scene. And, you know, this is how you would need it because it's, I mean, it's a different form of storytelling. So, you know, it's, it's something that seems kind of interesting. But also, as I told them at the time, because I think they were asking, you know, like, are you get it? You know, is it gonna upset you for someone else to adapt? And I'm like, Guys, I'm so tired, like, I don't have time to learn a new skill at this point, and, you know, and try to try to do it well, or as well as someone else who's really got some experience in it. So it just would, I would, I would love to see what someone else's vision of it would be.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:17
Thank you so much for listening to part one at a conversation with Laurel Hightower. Join us again next time for part two. But if you want to get that ahead of the crowd, if you want to get every episode ahead of the crowd, then become our patreon@patreon.com forward slash. This is horror. There are so many perks. Not only do you get early bird access, but you get to submit questions to each and every interviewee. You get story unboxed the horror podcast on the craft writing. You get the patrons only Q and A sessions. You get the videocast on camera, off record, and you get to be part of the writers forum over on Discord. So check it out, patreon.com, forward slash. This is horror. See if it's a good fit for you, and talking of ways that you can support us, I've recently opened up my editing, my freelance editing and writing consultations. So previously, this was something that I only offered patrons, but now it's open to the general public. You can get full details at Michael, David wilson.co.uk, forward slash editing or just reach out to me. Michael, at, this is horror.co.uk. Let me know what you're after. I can send you the rates, and let's see if we can work together.

Bob Pastorella 1:04:49
Yeah, definitely. If anybody is looking to work, you know, with a good editor and things like that, I've written with Michael, um, and he, he's incredible. Uh. Um, we, you know, I helped him. He helped me. So, you know, as a collaborator with the project, and probably gonna be a collaborator on a future project, then I can tell you right now, it's, it's gonna be money, well spent. The guy knows what he's doing.

Michael David Wilson 1:05:13
Oh, yeah. Thank you very much. And before we wrap up, a little bit of an advert break

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Michael David Wilson 1:06:21
Okay, well, to wrap up, I wonder, Bob, what is it that you're watching and reading at the moment? Well,

Bob Pastorella 1:06:30
I watched a pretty, pretty good little flick the other day called Blood. What's it called Blood Red Sky. And it's not, you know, a movie that's that's real deep, or anything like that. It's, I guess, it can be described as vampires on a plane. And didn't, did have some, some, some questionable moments. But other than that, I thought it was, you know, it was entertaining. I thought it was, it was pretty good, I will say at this point in time that I'm I'm reading. I'm reading several things, but one of the books I'm reading is slaughter Slaughtery falls by Brennan lafaro. And I want to just go ahead and just say that this book is does have some, some quite striking scenes in there. One scene in particular gave me actual goose bumps, and I quit reading for the evening. Wow. Yeah, it, it, there's, it definitely creeped me out. No, no doubt about it. And I'm not exaggerating, and I'm not kidding about it. It's, it's definitely a creepy book. I had to, I've read a little bit more on it last night, and I know we're about to get into a creepy scene, and I actually quit reading it because one, I had to go to sleep, and two, it was dark. So I mean, I highly recommend this book. Some things on the horizon. I'm really super duper excited about this new 824, film called Lamb. I have not seen the second trailer, and I will not watch it because I seen the first trailer, and that's all I need to know. But I have a feeling that this movie could actually be the horror, the most talked about horror movie of the year, and I'm, from what I understand, it's going to come out at the end of this year, so I'm hoping to see it before the end of the year.

Michael David Wilson 1:08:32
All right, well, there's a two huge endorsements. And I mean, Brennan's book it's his debut book. So for you to have had such a reaction where you're like, I need to put this down. I need to take a breather. I mean, I'm sure he'll be delighted to hear about that. I mean, that's what you know anyone would want as a reaction, and you certainly piqued my interest.

Bob Pastorella 1:09:03
Yeah, you need, you need to get it, man, I think, I think you'll like it. It's, uh, it's, it's about a group of Ghost Hunters. But the these aren't just the ghost hunters that you would that you would think that you're reading about, um, they're almost at bud at the point I'm at now, not really spoil anything, but they're reluctant ghost hunters.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:28
Okay, let's

Bob Pastorella 1:09:29
just say that. So, yeah, it's, it's really, it's really good, and for him, for a debut novel this, or it's actually a novella, but still, I mean, it's tight, it's, it's very well written, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:09:48
yeah. Well, I'm also looking forward to watching the nest, and we'll be interviewing the screenwriter of that. Later this week, in fact. So yeah, that's one that's on my radar at the moment. Well, that about does it for another episode of This is horror. We will see you in the next episode, part two of Laurel Hightower. But until then, take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have a Great, great day.