Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to This is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson and every episode alongside my co host, Bob pastorella, we chat with masters of horror about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more. Now today's guest is Laurel Hightower for the second of a two part conversation. Now, of course, Laurel is the author of books such as whispers in the dark and crossroads. And in this conversation, we talk about crossroads, which has, of course, been nominated for novella of the year in the this is horror awards. We also talk a little bit about classic horror literature, and speaking of which, we compare and contrast Hill House and Hell House. Now there's a lot more. There's quite a bit of humor towards the end, actually, as we learn about hands guy, although not really a humorous character, actually quite terrifying, but you got to stick around to find out about him, and we also delve into things such as Laurel's horror fiction Mount Rushmore and indeed, things that Laurel should be kinder to herself about. But before any of that, a little bit of an advert break,

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Michael David Wilson 3:22
i Okay, well, with that said, Here it is. It is Laurel Hightower for part two of the conversation on this is horror. So, as I said earlier, Crossroads is a grief horror novella. So I'm wondering, I mean, what experiences have you had with grief?

Laurel Hightower 3:51
Um, I think I experienced kind of a lot when I was younger. There was just a stretch of time, actually, one really bad year where we hadn't really dealt with anything like that, even the loss of a pet, and then in quick succession, every animal that we had died, and my parents split up, and my grandmother died, and she was I was 11, and she was just absolutely fantastic, really lovely, just sweet Southern woman, just, you know, the kindest person, and you know that that was big, just because I hadn't lost anybody, and she was somebody who was really close to me, but you experience it very differently as a child. And think I mentioned my uncle passed away when I was 18, and that was, you know, that was a little bit harder, because I was older, and I understood it more. But I feel like, as far as you know, the kind of intense grief, it's not that I would want to compare and say that, Oh. This was worse than that, because grief is experienced in so many different ways and so many compartments of the heart. And you know, you can grieve for things that are still alive but that just don't belong to you anymore. Grieving for the loss of relationships and the probably the biggest and most extended grief that I experienced was over. It took me three years to get pregnant with my son, and it was the kind of thing that you know was okay at first and kind of annoying, and then got worse and worse and worse. And it's a grief that it's a grief of the maybe never you know it's it's a grief of, are you ever going to have this thing that suddenly seems so central to your life and your happiness, and you know, are you going to be able to experience human interaction the same way? There's just so much of it that it cuts down your life, you know? You almost have to grieve for the person that you were before, because, and it's a different experience for everyone. But I got so far down that road I didn't even know who I was anymore, you know. And there was a lot of regret, honestly, for stepping onto that road because I couldn't find my way back. But, you know, again, I wouldn't want to compare that to someone's grief, who, you know, lost a person in that fashion, or something like that, but, but that was really kind of what I drew on for. It was that particular grief, you know, kind of just the the grief of of not knowing if this is ever going to be right or okay again.

Michael David Wilson 6:32
Um, there's a lot that you've said there that I think is very powerful. And how you know grief doesn't necessarily mean a person dying, but it could be a phase of your life dying, or it could be a loss of a relationship. It could be a relationship changing. It could be something you don't was permanent now becoming temporary. Becoming impermanent. It can be that a person wasn't who you thought they were. Absolutely there's a lot, there's a lot that I can really relate to there? Yeah, Hmm, I've always fucked myself up with that question, because now I'm thinking about different things that I'm kind of in the middle of grieving at the moment. I've never I've never derailed myself on a podcast. I've derailed many other people.

Laurel Hightower 7:49
Well, you know, if we're, we're talking about grief. So if you want to throw it out there, your it's your podcast,

Michael David Wilson 7:58
yeah, yeah. And I mean, unfortunately, right now, I can't get into to specifics and in terms of what's happening in my life on the podcast, but it's something I've mentioned in the outro before and said that I will speak about what's going on when I can, but I'm just not in a position to do so. But I think, you know the Yeah, never take anything for granted. Never take any situation to be permanent. I mean, it doesn't mean you don't have to, you don't have to take the opposite view when approaching life. You don't have to be so cynical that you think everything's going to end. But be be prepared for the fact that something might not be permanent and and through no fault of your own, or even through anyone's fault at all, you know, sometimes bad shit just happens and it sucks,

Laurel Hightower 9:06
yes, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 9:09
yeah, damn. I really need to turn up the I have turned down the mood. Well, that's,

Laurel Hightower 9:17
you know, I'm usually used to being the one who does that, because I wrote the horribly dishearsing book and, you know, taught talk about grief and but, but it's one of these things. I'm working on another novel right now that's still in pretty early stages, but I have a character who is a victim's advocate, and he is, you know, he talks about it being an observation that he's made that Americans grieve backward. And that might be, you know, true for for British as well, or maybe all of us, I don't know, so much of it happens behind closed doors, like it's not, in some ways it's not. Okay, May, and maybe those are even just our own restrictions. You know, I don't want to grieve in front of people. I don't want people to know that I'm not okay. I don't, I don't want to to cry or speak of these things that that will make me sad, you know, or experience that. And I just think it's one of those things that sometimes, when we do that and we just try to get through then we're, we're not really dealing with it. We're not getting better. We're just squishing it like a trash compactor. And it's not, you know, it's not helping anything. And there, I mean, you're right that you can't necessarily take anything for granted, that there is impermanence in all things through all kinds of different situations that we can't control, but there is a measure of safety and confidence in knowing that you know how to grieve, and that you know that there are toolboxes that you can that you can open and that you can use and that there are resources that you can reach out to. And I feel like, in a lot of ways, that's, I don't even want to say it's maturity. Sometimes it's, it's simply life experience. Sometimes it's um, encountering someone who helps you discover, you know that that because, I mean, I think we've all been there in that moment where you've just been hit. You know, you've just learned the thing. Your vision almost changes. You have this immediate perception of a before and after this moment, my life before, it my life after. And in those moments, it is really hard not to feel overwhelmed and like you're about to be swept under, because you don't know which way to look, you don't know where to reach, what to do. And in just knowing that there are people who've been here before, that there are resources and that there are people in your life, that there's not a damn thing that you could say to them that would drive them away, there's power in that you know, doesn't make everything okay. It doesn't immediately make it stop, but it helps you to realize that there is going to be a next step, and there is going to be an after that didn't make it any lighter. It all did.

Michael David Wilson 12:17
I think it's so really, really helpful, and I think it's so important that you make sure you have people you can talk to, that you don't keep things all to yourself. And certainly, you should not be afraid to cry. You shouldn't be afraid to express any emotion that you feel because that's human, that's being alive, and that's also a way of processing it. So, I mean, with my particular situation, just because I can't talk about it in a public forum, that does not mean that I'm I'm not talking about it, or I don't have, like, a close network of people who I can talk about it to, because if I couldn't, then, then it's just going to multiply. It's just going to consume me. And, I mean, I don't think as humans, we're designed to be able to withstand all of that grief and all of that pain alone. So certainly, for people listening who are going through things, and you know, there's going to be a lot of people going through things, make sure that you have someone that you can talk to and and just like I said, not to be afraid to cry or to express something. Just don't be afraid of just being you, of being vulnerable, of being authentic. Um, don't see it as weakness. It it's strength. It's strong to cry. It's strong to be honest and to be vulnerable. Yeah, none of us are ending with like, Oh, and there's no some comedy that you might want to check out too.

Bob Pastorella 14:11
But, I mean, you're right. I mean, we haven't enough frustrations and pressures without throwing grief into the mix anyway, in life that doesn't necessarily have to be grief. You can be angry about something, and this terrible stigma of, you know, never showing emotions and all that kind of stuff. You know, it's if you continue to sweep that stuff underneath the rug, eventually you're going to slip and fall when you're standing on the rug, and it's all going to come crumbling down on you. And it's, you know, it's important to be able to release and feel and you're right. It is, it's, it may not change anything, but it can be. Be empowering to embrace your vulnerability, and you know it's but it's tough to do you. I don't know if it's almost like a learned activity, but to me, it's like you just have to to to have the confidence that it's okay to let go. And that's that's helped me out a lot. Because, I mean, I don't, I don't, I'm not. I don't really have any kind of grief, but I do get, like, really angry about things, and then I just, I can't let that stuff stay inside. And sometimes, you know, especially, it worked lately. You know, I destroyed a cardboard box the other day. Boy, that shit felt fucking good. That's all I'm gonna say on that, you know. But I got it out. That's what it was, you know, yeah, and I cried. That's the thing. I was so pissed off. I was crying. And, you know, we have to be able to to release that stuff. Just gonna, it's just gonna eat you alive,

Laurel Hightower 16:11
yeah, and, you know, to to allow I, you know, I often it's hard for me to practice what I preach because I'm an easy crier. You know, I don't have any problem with crying, but it is gosh, you know, if, if I'm having a hard time and need help, it is so hard to reach out, and it's so awful because, you know, if my sister or one of my friends or my husband, or you know, somebody at work, or someone that I very peripherally knew was, was doing that and saying, I, you know, I can't, I can't, I don't want to bother anybody. I'd be the first person to step in silly. For God's sake, it's not a bother. Open up, you know, I'm here. Let's talk, let's get a drink, let's do whatever. But it's like, I don't know, uh, sometimes it's, I feel like I'm just turning to stone, you know, like it's, I just get so stressed, and I just don't want to be a bother to anybody. And so it's, you know, I don't always practice what I preach, but it, but it's, it's an interesting aspect, I think, of social media too, because you really see a range of what people share. And some people share very deeply about things. They're very, very open, and sometimes I'll see them sort of retract that or regret it or something. And I mean, I think you do have to do what's right for you and what feels right and what leaves you feeling okay at the end of the day. And for it's not being completely vulnerable for everyone. But you know, if somebody is really hurting, and they throw it out on Twitter that they're depressed or that they are having a rough time, or that they, you know, have no faith in something to you know, they're throwing a hand up when they're drowning. And I'm glad, because that gives people an opportunity to throw them a life raft, you know, and pull them out. And I just think that as humans, that is just our primary responsibility towards one another, if we can. And not everyone's going to always have the bandwidth for it. Not any one person has to save everyone that's that's not right. But you know, you've probably had those situations where you got to have an emotional connection with somebody that was unexpected, that you maybe didn't know very well and maybe never talked to again. But there's such power in that, just to know that as alone as you feel sometimes, that you're just not, you know, I don't know. It's way, it's it's just one of those things that makes me it's a little bit Pollyanna, but, but I just genuinely believe that, at heart, most people are good and have that capacity.

Michael David Wilson 18:47
Yeah, me too. I mean, that's why I think, really, we should all try to be kinder to one another, because I think the vast majority of people are doing their best of trying to be good people and making decisions that they genuinely think are for the best, and even if we really disagree with their actions, or we disagree with you that the way that they've gone about things I think very few people are actually operating, you know, with hatred or to cause other people pain, however flawed their methods they're doing what they think, you know, is the best thing to do at the time. So let's be fucking kinder to each other. Let's believe more in forgiveness and let's have more conversations. That's my take. Anyway, there's probably people completely disagreeing or thinking I'm naive, and that's fine. That's that's their opinion. They're entitled to it. You

Laurel Hightower 19:57
can forgive them for thinking. That, yeah, now they

Michael David Wilson 20:01
definitely turned up Fuck you, I think as well. I mean you, yeah, you were talking about the different ways people are when dealing with problems and on Twitter and social media, and how some people very much lay it out raw. Other people are more guarded, and you do what you have to do and what you're comfortable doing, and don't feel any pressure to act in any way other than the way that you want to, just because someone else is laying it all out, that doesn't mean you have to. And equally, just because somebody else is being very guarded doesn't mean you shouldn't lay it all out you do not only what you want to do, but what you need to do, because anything else isn't gonna work exactly well, we have a Patreon question from Johann Thorson to get us back on track with horror and reading and all that good stuff. So to begin with, he simply wants to know, what are some classics that you love

Laurel Hightower 21:23
books or movies,

Michael David Wilson 21:24
he hasn't matter. He hasn't specified. So why don't we go wild and say both? Wow, it's that time in the show. I

Laurel Hightower 21:39
I think I'm gonna, I feel like I'm gonna get hung up here on books, because I definitely, you know Shirley Jackson Haunting of Hill House, as I've mentioned, absolutely love that one. Wondering what else would be I know Richard Matheson the legend of Hell House. Not sure if we consider that a classic, but it's definitely I really like that when I sort of like to read it as a companion a little bit to The Haunting of Hill House, because it feels like two very different takes on something a little bit similar. So yeah, I love both of those. And I I know it's not a classic, but it feels like it should be. It feels like it should be like part of everyone's, you know, education in particular, with respect to cosmic horror. But John langens The fisherman, and since he turned off as soon as he realized I didn't know the difference between whiskey and Barb, I don't have to worry about embarrassing him here. But it just feels like, it feels like something that, I mean, when I was reading it, I just kept making these notes of these lines, you know, about when is, you know, when it's at the beginning, when he's talking about his wife getting ready to die, and he felt like she was entering the lobby of this, you know, this long, dark lobby of a place that she was going that he couldn't follow. And, I mean, I'm, I'm mangling it, but it was just, so, you know, just punched me straight in the gut, and I just the the legends within it. It just felt like something ancient, you know. So I'm gonna cheat and throw that out as a classic that's from for movies, I'll my favorites that I always come back to are poltergeist because I I love that. It's like a love story to to a family, you know, like I feel like that's one of the more realistic depictions of how a family would either come together or fall apart during something like that. I love Poltergeist, and I love the exorcist. And, yeah, I mean, those, those are the kinds of ones that I look at, and the changeling is fucking fantastic. And, you know, those are the kind of things that I look at and say, I, you know, I want to evoke that kind of feeling, yeah, so I'm, I'm going with those answers.

Michael David Wilson 24:01
You know, since you've mentioned both Jackson's Hill House and Matheson's Hell House, I mean, I wonder is a little compare and contrast. What do you think each does? Well, what would you say are the strengths and potential weaknesses of each

Laurel Hightower 24:23
Hill House. And this is a little bit funny for me, because I mentioned, I'm not good with symbolism, so it really never occurred to me in reading that that there wasn't a ghost, that there was a possibility that was centered. So I, you know, I think that that's one of those things, you know, in retrospect, reading it with a little bit more with a little bit more experience and a little more age. Yes, you know, I feel like, and I love well done ambiguity. I think it's fantastic. And I feel like Hill House does great with that ambiguity. I don't from a character see. In point now, kind of drives me a little bit up the wall, but I think that part of that just has to do with the time period, you know, and the expectations that are placed on genders and that sort of thing at that at that stage. And, you know, just being myself, I would have loved more ghost, you know, I but I'm not saying that I would change anything about that. But as far as an enjoyment level, more ghost and Hell House, I like that. It just went there, you know, they, I mean, there's just, it's not really ambiguous. You You punch straight through. There's a hell of a lot going on there. It's very intense. And I liked the focus on, on feeling on because I feel like that's one of those things that's most likely to affect you, that then, in a lot of ways, the most effective and most frightening haunting is being possessed of emotions that don't belong to you, just this extreme anger or need for control or jealousy or something like that, that you know you might be a balanced person or found ways to deal with your own emotions, but you get socked like that, like I don't, you know, I don't know how many people remember very clearly how it feels to be an adolescent when you get just this rush of hormones that is, you know, just makes you livid, just so furious in the moment. And it's, you know, I mean, that sort of thing, it's like kind of almost frightening, because as much control as we expect an adolescent to have over their feelings. Ha, ha, ha, you know that that sort of thing? I mean, that can hit you so hard. I don't know. I'm going off on a tangent here, because it's one of the things I was thinking about with with Hell House. But, yeah, I don't know that. I'd say that there was anything wrong done in either one of them, really. But I feel like, you know, mathesons is definitely more action packed. Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 27:06
So I have to ask out of the films, I guess the film wise, from both stories and I would compare, you know, I guess the haunting which came out like in the late 60s, to the film Legend of Hell House that's based off Madison's book. Out of those two,

Laurel Hightower 27:29
Rodney McDowell, is that one? Yes, yeah, yeah, oh, out of those two, definitely, Hell House that Yeah, yeah. That's, I thought that was, yeah, that was really cool, you know, and the reveal there at the end, I mean, it's a little tiny bit hokey, but I don't know, I thought it was, I thought it was really well done. And, yeah, I love that one. I like to rewatch that one.

Bob Pastorella 27:58
Yeah. I mean, you can't really compare that film to, you know, The Haunting of Hill House the series, and I don't think it's very fair to compare to the haunting the one with Liam Neeson. You know, that's an Owen who's in Owen Wilson, wow. But anyway, and you know, that's funny, because when I first saw that movie, I thought was pretty cool. And then I, as I got older, I'm like, this is, like, not very good movie, but I can watch the legend of Hell House any, any time I love that movie.

Laurel Hightower 28:36
Yeah, same, same. I think it's excellent. And I just one of the things that's always fun for me with haunted house stories is observing how the how the writers answer the question, how do you get them to stay in the house? Because, you know, obviously, if there's something awful happening and ghosts like you book, you know, so you have to, you have to give them a compelling reason to stay. And I thought his house, you know, that's a, I think that's a Netflix Original that came out, like, maybe last year about the refugee family. Yes, man. I mean, what a great answer to that question, because they, there's nowhere else they're able to go, right? That is really being stuck in a haunted fucking house. That was a really, really good one. Yeah, that's

Bob Pastorella 29:28
they answer the question. Because, I mean, I've always believed that horror happens when you make a bad decision. The bad decision has to be organic. Yeah, it can't be like, well, the car wouldn't start. You know. So we just went back inside, yeah,

Laurel Hightower 29:47
two feet to the neighbor's house or anything. Or, you know, use our cell phones. Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 29:52
exactly when we went back in there. It's fine.

Laurel Hightower 29:59
I let it. Did you have you seen the wicked in the dark? Or the dark in the wicked? I always get that messed up.

Bob Pastorella 30:04
Not yet. No, okay, and we can't really talk about in front of Michael, because he didn't have shutter in Japan. But, oh, man,

Michael David Wilson 30:15
so point,

Bob Pastorella 30:19
so, but I need to watch it. Though. It's got Alexander Berkeley's in it too. He plays the dad, huh? I think so. And what's her name, Maren, something the girl from Sneaky Pete. She's in it. You never seen Sneaky Pete? Nope, nope. Michael, turn me on to that one that

Michael David Wilson 30:41
was damn Yeah, yeah. Thank

Laurel Hightower 30:45
you, Pete. I'm looking it up right now.

Bob Pastorella 30:48
Yeah. Once you start, it's like, you're gonna realize this is a pretty up show. It's got Giovanni verbisi in there, and you really cannot go wrong with him. He's one of those actors that really didn't have to work, but when he does, he's really, really good.

Laurel Hightower 31:05
Oh yeah, I recognize her, Marin Ireland, yeah, yeah, she was in that. She was the daughter. Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 31:09
I need to see that. I have it on my to watch list, but I just haven't got there yet.

Laurel Hightower 31:16
Well, I do think there's, I don't think it'll spoil it. To give you a line from it that I like, where the, you know, the brother says, and I didn't, I didn't imagine it, because that doesn't happen. And I love that, because it is such a fucking stupid thing to me. It, you know, it's like the, oh, you imagine it. Seriously. I'm 39 years old, and I was perfectly lucid. No, I didn't hear things or imagine it, either. I'm seriously having, like, Vision hallucination issues, or there's a fucking ghost. I don't know. I just And again, maybe it's because I'm Southern, but it's like, like, if my husband comes, you know, up to me, and it's like, holy shit, I saw a ghost on I'd be like, Okay, I'm gonna have you committed. Like, you're seriously crazy. I'm gonna be like, motherfucker. Where is it dangerous? Can I see it?

Bob Pastorella 32:05
Yeah, that's gonna be me. I'm gonna be, you know, I'm, I'm skeptical of everything I'm getting, I guess, a little bit more looser, and the fact that maybe, maybe there is something out there. But, I mean, it's like, my scientific background is always going to be, like, there's some kind of logical explanation. And the thing about logical explanations is this, they can also be fucking weird. That's, you know? They could be like, yeah, there is logical explanation. It's even worse. You're gonna be like, Oh, well, we were all fucked So,

Michael David Wilson 32:39
yeah, I know the other week you went to a haunted house, any, any tales or experiences from that

Laurel Hightower 32:50
um, nothing, nothing real major. One of one of my friends that went with me is very, um, very sensitive to that kind of thing. So, like she, she will usually kind of have a good idea of, you know, oh, is, you know, is there something going on here and and she felt like it was all pretty benign. She felt like the house next door to us probably had more going on. But, you know, would have been awkward to just knock on their door and be like, Can we stay? We want, we want ghosts,

Michael David Wilson 33:20
but what? And as a writer, you must have been tempted. It's like, Can we, can we just do a house swap for the evening? Yeah, you go in this one that's supposed to be haunted, because I think you got the good shit. You can take a break.

Laurel Hightower 33:40
We'll take the haunting for the night. Yeah, yeah. So we did. We did some. One of my friends has one of those little, like, ghost meter things, and we never really picked up anything on that. But, like, one of the rooms really felt creepy to me, but they actually, both of them slept in there because they're insane, and they had no problems. But the next morning, we were going around doing like, you know, EVP, just trying to get some recordings, just asking questions and things. And in another room, we got a pretty clear male voice responding to two of the questions. And it wasn't clear enough that we could tell what he was saying. But it was such like it was, you know, it's just very quiet in that house. There was nothing going on and there, you know, when we're playing it back at high volume, it was just very like, you know, it really felt like, Yeah, and again, you know, I'm with you, Bob, that for that, especially, someone could definitely say, oh, that, you know, that was what are. There's so much ambient noise, there's so many opportunities for things like that, so, but I don't know it felt real and that, and I'm not going to say that this is a result of a haunting, but so I get sleep paralysis. I don't get it super often, and I'm likely to, I'm more likely to get it when I'm stressed out. I've never had it twice in one night. And I did there, and I get touch sensation with it, which is really disturbing to me. So the first time I was, like, curled up on my side, you know, just like, kind of holding on to the blanket, like dead asleep, and it felt like someone under the bed was pulling the covers out from my hands, like, just like, pulling the cover off me, and, you know, I struggled out of it. It's totally sleep paralysis. I don't think that really happened, but then the second time, I felt someone sit on the bed and just like, put their arms, like, kind of on either side of me, and just lean in real close and touch my hair. And again, totally sleep paralysis. But it's weird to me that that happened twice and that they were so I don't know, interested. I don't know, so I can't say that. That definitely says any hauntings, but it was creepy as all fucking

Michael David Wilson 35:52
Yeah, yeah, whatever, a supernatural experience or simply sleep paralysis. I mean, it sounds like a creepy and deeply unpleasant thing to have to go through. Quite frankly, this, yeah, yeah,

Laurel Hightower 36:10
it's not fun. It's not fun.

Michael David Wilson 36:15
Well. Johan Thorson, second question, why do you think Stephen King so massively dominates the horror section when other sections of bookstores have more variety of authors?

Laurel Hightower 36:32
That is a good question. Also shout out for your your cover reveal his his cover reveal is absolutely fucking gorgeous. So side note there. But so for Stephen King, I feel like it's, I mean, part of it is, I don't care what anybody says, whether you like him or not, whether you enjoy his work or not. The man is an excellent writer, and he writes characters very well, and he he is talented at pulling you in and making you feel that fear. And he has such a wide range of stories, you know, that he tells. So it's not like it was solely luck, but I do think it to a certain extent, it was right time, right place, with the popularity of it, and, you know, the way that it that his work was kind of pulled into the general population, as far as that kind of popularity. So it's, you know, and his stuff is intense, you know, it's not like it's horror light or anything, but it's like the acceptable, recognizable thing to throw on your shelves. And since he has so much, you can fill up an entire section with it. You shouldn't, but you can't,

Michael David Wilson 37:42
right? Yeah, yeah, I guess the Stephen King has written so many stories that, I mean, he's written in almost every genre, particularly if you take a wide definition of each genre. I mean, even though we see him as a horror writer, primarily, he has transcended that. He does so much more than horror.

Laurel Hightower 38:10
Absolutely, 1122, 63 is just, there's certainly some horrific elements in that. But that's, that's one of my favorites of his, and I would consider that more romance than anything else. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 38:23
yeah. And obviously, he's done a number of Hard Boiled crime and some of his books, I mean, almost seem just more human drama, as it were. Yeah. Damn, there's a reason as to why he's so bloody successful. Yeah. I mean, Doom a key is perhaps one that I'd consider more kind of drama for one of a better word I better

Laurel Hightower 39:03
word, that is, I feel like such an underappreciated King novel. I love Doom key. Yeah, I love the interplay between the main character and, you know, the the people in his life is his wife, and the way that accident messes with him and there, but there's also a couple scenes in there that just scared the hell out of me. So, yeah, he can't, he can't help doing that just a little bit.

Michael David Wilson 39:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I imagine if he was asked to write a rom com, and, well, actually, I imagine if he was asked to write a rom com. He'd say, No, I'm Stephen King. I don't need the money. But in some weird situation where he's not only asked, but legally obligated. I mean, there'd be some, some fucked up scenes in there. It's like, What the Why did you throw that in? It's like, I. I'm Stephen King, motherfucker, definitely what you'd say.

How are you, of course,

Bob Pastorella 40:15
roll that motherfucker right on in there. Yeah. What's that one that would like with Max's, uh, Castle Rock. He had that quote from Stevie King, I'm gonna scare the hell out of you. I'm gonna get y'all horny too, really. Like, that'd be good. That's a good sound point. And, yeah, sure. Steve, you know, take three, yeah.

Laurel Hightower 40:45
Oh, good. Stephen King, erotica.

Michael David Wilson 40:48
Well, Joanne's final question, what was your gateway book into reading?

Laurel Hightower 40:57
That is hard to remember, because I feel like I was pretty much always reading. But I remember my father reading us The Wind and the Willows when I was very little. That was probably before I could actually read. So yeah, he would, he would read a couple of chapters of the Wind and the Willows to us at night, before bed. So that's, I think that's the earliest thing I remember reading that's not horror at all. Is it? That's disappointing?

Michael David Wilson 41:28
Well, that's so good Johan, if he wants to be disappointed. But he did not, he did not specify horror. So that's what you get you and your wonderful cover reveal the other day. Well, I wonder what is something you should be kinder to yourself about,

Laurel Hightower 41:55
um, about not being perfect, especially right out of the gate. And, you know, I don't mean that I'm that I think that I'm perfect, but that I need to stop beating myself up for not getting absolutely everything done, that I think that I should and not fixing every problem that anybody has, you know, and just and not meeting every possible obligation, because there's no way to do it. But that's, you know, that is hard to stop beating myself up for, for not maybe spending as much time as I feel like I should on certain things, even though there's just limits. There's limits to how much time there is in a day.

Michael David Wilson 42:47
Yeah, is perfectionism something you've always battled with?

Laurel Hightower 42:51
That's a hard thing to answer, because in some ways, definitely not like I there's just a lot of ways in which I know I'm not perfect, and have never tried to be, you know, I'm, I have always been, and probably will always be, the person who's at least somewhat sloppily dressed, who's, you know, work clothes don't quite go together, and that's not the right shade of shoes, you know, or things like that. So in in some ways, I I've never even tried, but in others, I feel like it's almost more trying to think of the best way to phrase it, like a performance, a perfection in performance, or perfection in behavior, as far as like, making everyone happy. You know, I want to be able to be everyone to everything that's in my life. I want to, you know, do all of the things I can for my son. I want to be a good mother, and I want to feed him, you know, healthy meals and, and, yeah, that's not a thing. I don't cook. But, you know, I mean, just all these things that you can absolutely pile on the guilt about. Yeah, so I think it's a I think it's a weird mix of being an absolute slob in some parts of my life and just what, just wanting to have a perfection in I don't know, just just never have the wrong answer to something and never make someone feel bad by saying the wrong thing or phrasing it the wrong way? I don't know. That may not make any sense, doesn't doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my head, either, but

Michael David Wilson 44:29
wow, it's interesting, after almost two hours of conversation, to find that you hate having the wrong answer to anything he's like. Has this been like, the most fucking stressful experience of your life?

Laurel Hightower 44:44
Well, no, because I hopefully I haven't said anything that's like, horribly, horribly offended or upset either one of you. But you know, if, if I have, you can tell me, and then I'll, then I'll worry about it the rest of my life.

Michael David Wilson 44:56
I mean, not so far, but there's still probably 15 minutes. So, so free to have that opportunity. So it's not over yet. You know, I'm pretty difficult to offend, but by all means, give it your best shot. Just waiting. So give it your best shot

Laurel Hightower 45:17
to try to offend

Michael David Wilson 45:20
you. I'm not actually gonna wait for 15 minutes. That was, I know that's how my my brain was like, yeah, that'd be funny. Let's go, go quiet and see what happens.

Laurel Hightower 45:42
I feel like googling insults. The meanest thing I could say that

Michael David Wilson 45:47
would definitely be an activity on ghoulish podcast, and just stop and Google insults be a whole episode of Max just trying that shit out. I would listen. Yeah, yeah, me too, me too. Very entertaining podcast. Particularly enjoyed episode 100 Not, not because Max died in it, yeah, I'm not that sick a fuck, and not because me and Bob had a cameo in it,

Laurel Hightower 46:28
but those things helped

Michael David Wilson 46:29
both of them did enhance the podcast absolutely well. What advice would you give to your 18 year old self? Oh, man,

Laurel Hightower 46:43
I'm wondering if I should parse out what my 18 year old self would be most likely to listen to and not just do a dramatic Hair flip and tell me I didn't know what I was talking about, but if I thought I would listen, I probably would, would tell myself, you don't have to fix everything or everyone. And I don't know your type is terrible. Laurel, please stop it. Please just whatever your type is, whoever you immediately feel that attraction to just stop it. It's probably a poor choice. Yeah, yeah, the 18 year old me would not listen to that. She would, she would go date the heavy metal musicians and, yeah, well, you know, like you said earlier, kind of have to have those experiences in your life to a certain

Michael David Wilson 47:38
extent. So it sounds like the present you and your uncle would have got on, then you've been united in your disgusting 18 year old Laurel's type

Unknown Speaker 47:51
absolutely, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 47:53
it'd be difficult advice to receive. Don't date your type. So it's like, so I gotta do the opposite, like, look in the room. Who, who do I feel I'm least attracted to? Okay, there's a there's a safe bet, it's like, so what? What first drew you to me? Well, it was the fact that there was absolutely no attraction whatsoever. So I thought, yeah, safe bet, get together.

Laurel Hightower 48:29
I think part of it, though, really. And again, I think this is probably just something everyone learns with maturity. To an extent, I met my husband on a on a dating website, on match.com and by the time I was doing that, and especially after I'd been doing it, a little bit like I just recognized that that when people were filling out, you know, online dating is so interesting because you go in and fill out a little survey of what you want, it's like you're placing an order, right? And, no, that doesn't mean you're gonna get that, you know, exact thing. But I just realized in all the things that you could require or say were was important to you, I noticed how many women would be like, you know, well, the guy's got to be over six foot, and he has to have, like, dark hair, and he has whatever. And I'm like, what does that have to do with happiness? What does that have to do with compatibility? You know, like, like, I don't know. So it's, I think it's one of those things that things again, when I'm 18, it's like, I see this, you know, guy with long hair and tattoos and and, you know, he's playing a guitar. And it's like, oh, yeah, okay, that's, that's it. That's my type. But you don't know anything about that person, you know. And it's just, I don't know. It's, I feel like it's when, when you get a little bit older and get a little bit more experienced dating, it's like, I don't know, what are your you know, where do you like to go on vacation? Do you read? You know, what kind of movies I mean, and like, bigger life stuff, you know, that's just, I don't know. I just thought it was so interesting. And it's. A really bizarre thing, because I've my husband is, I think he's like five foot nine or 510 and I have a brother who's, you know, under six foot, and he did dating too. And I talked to a lot of other men who did online dating, and it's like half the time they couldn't even get a first look because there was this bizarre cutoff on height. I don't know that's just that's been something that stuck with me. Like, what a weird, what a weird way to choose your mate, you know, what a weird way to narrow people out.

Michael David Wilson 50:28
Yeah, and, I mean, I I've found having recently separated from my ex, so something liberating about, you know dating when you're a little bit older, and you realize that you know when you like in in your early 20s, at least, from my experience, it's like you don't really know what the fuck you're doing. You don't you don't know who you are, let alone what you want. And so actually dating when you do have more confidence than you are, just more self assured. It just means that, like you know, you've got such a larger cancer success, because not only do you know what you want, but you know what you don't want, and I don't know it. Maybe it's just me, but it seems they're much more efficient the whole dating process, because everyone's a lot more confident. And so, I mean, it is liberating. I also find with my own personality that I almost have, like a kind of self editing mechanism, because I'll start talking about philosophy or something pretty quickly, and it's like, you know, if people aren't into that, it's like, so we're just gonna move away. It's like, great. I'll just fucking be my own weird self. I'll throw in some philosophical points and a joke or two. And if you stick along, stick around for that, then something serious could happen. You might you might be lucky. You might get it to date. Michael David Wilson,

Laurel Hightower 52:21
but, I mean, look at, look at how that pans out. I mean, it's, it's, does this person share interest with me, or at least, even if they don't understand, you know, or have a background of like that, are they? Are they interested in listening? I don't know these, these things are just so much more important to compatibility than, Oh, he's, you know, he's, he's two feet taller than me.

Michael David Wilson 52:47
How big is this man? Jesus Christ? It's the undertaker.

Laurel Hightower 52:56
Six foot seven.

Unknown Speaker 52:58
Yeah, wow.

Bob Pastorella 53:00
That is one of my best friends. Is six seven, and I'm like, 510 and it's like, Dude, you're like, super D duper dog.

Laurel Hightower 53:14
Well, he would do great on a dating website. He would clean up. He would do great on a dating website, he would clean up. You wouldn't even have to put anything else on his profile.

Michael David Wilson 53:26
I'm saving for seven. Match with me now. Now in capitals,

Bob Pastorella 53:33
use your name, six, seven. Picture of a smiling face. Just be like, tell us something about yourself. I'm six seven. That's it. How do you do it? I'm six seven,

Michael David Wilson 53:52
just imagining some absurd comedy. And that's basically all he talks about when he goes on days,

Bob Pastorella 54:04
this other time I was so tall, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 54:08
like, and, you know, it's like, what? What movies do you like? I'm six, seven. What the fuck do you think I like?

Bob Pastorella 54:20
I can't even go the movies. Yeah, six seven,

Laurel Hightower 54:27
social experiment. We need. Like, how far would it go?

Michael David Wilson 54:31
Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 54:34
six seven,

Michael David Wilson 54:40
I don't even know how this happened, or where we go, where we go from here, but what is it that frightens you apart from dating men, six, seven, because it's far too tall. I.

Laurel Hightower 55:00
That didn't turn out well, honestly, but, yeah, what scares me? Well, I feel like there's like different phases to that answer. Because I feel like there's like legit, like fears like, oh my god, you know, like losing my kid, or, you know, yeah, I can't think of anything worse than that. But, I mean, you know, like, it's like something happening to those just kind of, why Crossroads is a little bit little bit hard to write. It's like, I don't know. Sometimes I'm a little superstitious, and I'm like, I don't want to say its name, you know. So there's those kinds of, like, grounded type of fears, but water scares the hell out of me, you know, like stuff in the water, not like liquid. HBO,

Michael David Wilson 55:45
yeah, that would be really difficult when going to a restaurant, the way I bring you a glass of water, whoa,

Laurel Hightower 55:55
scream and knock it out of their hands. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 55:58
This is another character in this weird dating comedy that I'm gonna write, who got six, seven waterwoman, who else we can have?

Laurel Hightower 56:14
Oh, well, I'll give you one. How about handsy guy? I went out on a date. I went on a date once with a guy, went to a movie with him, and I started keeping count of this. He kept putting his hand in my lap, and I kept picking it up and putting it back in his lap. The guy did it 27 fucking times. 27 Wow. Now that's ridiculous, but you might also be asking, Laurel, why did you say

Bob Pastorella 56:42
you want to see how high number

Laurel Hightower 56:45
would be? I'll go with that answer. That's that's more fun than I didn't have another ride home, you know. But yeah, so yeah, there you go. Handsy guy. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 56:53
you know, he was just really fucking creepy. But you're late. I find out it's actually a weird medical condition,

Laurel Hightower 57:04
which case he probably needs to warn people about that. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 57:07
I'm also going to acknowledge that that that comment I made might be problematic and and I believe that if you say something problematic, if I just add the disclaimer, it was a joke. Nothing can go wrong. That's okay. Yeah, you're covered, yeah,

Laurel Hightower 57:32
but yeah, water, because you can't see that shit. You can't see what's in there. And also, probably most bodies of water are over deserted towns that have been drowned, and all the dead people are left, and they float up and they grab your foot. I'm fairly certain that that is common. Yeah, so that's, that's my big like, really irrational, bizarre fear, like, honestly, kind of boils down a little bit that I'm afraid of fish because I don't want to be touched by anything, and if a fish touches me, I'm going to freak the fuck out. So yeah,

Michael David Wilson 58:09
was Hansie guy also part fish, add to the fucking Cara of

Laurel Hightower 58:18
it. You know, he did. He did have some kind of floppy lips, I guess he i, that is the, that is the one time in my life I really did that thing where I slammed the door in his face when he tried to kiss me. That's, I know I'd never done that before, but I was like, Absolutely not handsy boy, not after that. Boy,

Michael David Wilson 58:38
I hope you said that to

Laurel Hightower 58:42
him, no, but I did say it to my friend who set us up. Oh,

Michael David Wilson 58:45
my God, it's even worse that you know that wasn't just someone you met on a dating site. Someone set you up with him.

Laurel Hightower 58:54
Yes, yeah, someone set me up. And I told her what had happened, and she went to him and was like, What the fuck? And he was like, Yeah, I don't know. And I'm like, No, I feel like we need more of an answer. What

Michael David Wilson 59:06
does he mean? I don't know.

Laurel Hightower 59:10
That was his move. That was his one move, and he just had to keep trying until it worked. He's probably still trying it. He's probably somewhere right now dropping his hand in the lapis on poor chick.

Michael David Wilson 59:25
Oh god. Well,

Bob Pastorella 59:28
hopefully he's got his ass kicked by some chickman out. So,

Unknown Speaker 59:32
yeah,

Bob Pastorella 59:33
I mean, that's just, I don't know. It's like, especially, like, you said this was, like, first date.

Michael David Wilson 59:40
Oh yeah, that wasn't gonna be a second I'm gonna

Bob Pastorella 59:43
be a second date. And my thing is, on like, first date is like, I do my best not to touch at all. You know, you're just to get to know someone, not to get to feel them

Laurel Hightower 59:59
crazy. That is That makes perfect sense, but also just the phrasing of that, for some reason, is hysterical, yeah, to get to know someone, not to get to touch them,

Bob Pastorella 1:00:10
yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's just, I don't know this. This is when I hear stuff like that. He's like, really, kind of like, really, it's like, if I was a friend of mine, if I had set you up with this guy and I found out about that, I would have, like, hung up the phone with you and called him and go, What the fuck is your fucking problem? Shit? Man, I'm sorry that that happened to you. God, it

Laurel Hightower 1:00:41
was, it was more weird than anything, because it's not like, I don't know, it was just like, just in my lap, just like, kind of like a dead fish. I guess it just was such a bizarre like, I don't want to be Stop it. I don't know. I just feel like it's pretty direct to pick it up and throw it back, not work. I don't know. But yeah, no, he's, that's, that's the thing about dating is you get to collect all these fun characters.

Bob Pastorella 1:01:08
He's gonna die in a story. In me,

Unknown Speaker 1:01:10
I know it

Bob Pastorella 1:01:12
fucking No.

Laurel Hightower 1:01:13
Now that I think about it, I should do that. Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 1:01:15
you should.

Michael David Wilson 1:01:19
I'm just imagining his persistence is so much that he he gets beat up. He's like lying on the floor bleeding, and then like floppy fish and reaches up try and put his hand in someone's lap.

Laurel Hightower 1:01:42
Yeah. It's like this zombie hand, like he's finally dead. The hand's still going, you can't see all of this happening,

Michael David Wilson 1:01:50
yeah, horrific. And his coffin is, like, gonna have to be like an artificial lap that his hand is resting in it, like how you'd want to have gone out. I'm aware, in saying this, that I've, I've taken this topic far too far. We literally moved on a few minutes again, I've brought it back to him.

Bob Pastorella 1:02:21
This is gonna be the best outtake ever.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:25
Is it an outtake? I don't premium content.

Bob Pastorella 1:02:29
I think it's I think y'all leave it in there.

Laurel Hightower 1:02:34
Watch me get, like, an apology email through like Facebook. I was fish hand guy.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:42
No. Hans boy. Think Hans boy is his username, maybe with a Zed instead of an S for handsy. Yeah,

Laurel Hightower 1:02:54
that's an instant block right there.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:57
Oh, good. Well, what are some of your personal philosophies?

Laurel Hightower 1:03:05
Oh, gosh. Well, live fast pet dogs and put hot sauce on everything

Michael David Wilson 1:03:17
for you to put hot sauce on. Unhealthy then you might not have gotten 27 times if his eye got itchy. So, yeah, it's good advice.

Laurel Hightower 1:03:33
I could, I could have put the hot sauce right in his eye too. Honestly, by that point, that would have been fair. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:03:40
yeah. Oh, my God, I can't, I can't end the episode with, with shit like this. I need, I need to ask you something that, yeah, whatever your answer, I'm not tempted to segue with, with a handsy boy reference. Could be difficult. Could be difficult. Well, if you had a horror fiction Mount Rushmore, who would be on it? That's a Brian Asman question. Oh,

Laurel Hightower 1:04:19
that's a good question. I like that. Stephen Graham Jones, for sure. And Shirley Jackson, obviously, I feel like you gotta have Stephen King, I've gotten so much enjoyment out of his work. You know, she's gonna kill me for this. But Haley Piper, because she's just, I'm sorry, she's a modern, she's a modern master, and I fucking love her work. So, yeah, there's four, right? Yeah, they're four. Okay, there we go.

Bob Pastorella 1:04:54
That's a good mount. Rushmore, thank

Laurel Hightower 1:04:57
you. I like it.

Michael David Wilson 1:04:59
Mm. If you appear dead, then I guess we know it's Haley Piper. There's the motive right there.

Laurel Hightower 1:05:13
Wow, I was ambushing her.

Michael David Wilson 1:05:18
Thank you so much for spending the majority of your evening chatting with us. This has been a lot of fun, apart from the part where I decided to have a 20 minute grief segment. You know, it's all been useful, but I wonder where can have listeners connect with you.

Laurel Hightower 1:05:44
I am on Twitter to a detrimental degree. My handle is at Hightower Laurel, so that's primarily where I am. I have a website that I never update, but I do check the email from, and that's just Laurel hightower.com so that's mostly where the where you can find me. And I appreciate you guys having me on. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you for working with my ridiculous schedule.

Michael David Wilson 1:06:08
This is this has been awesome. And, yeah, no need to apologize about your schedule. Oh, I wonder. Do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to leave our listeners with kind

Laurel Hightower 1:06:27
of a little bit of a recap, just if you want to write, write and don't let anyone tell you that there's no room for you at the table. Read diversely, and if you have an opportunity to be kind. I think you should take it.

Michael David Wilson 1:06:45
Thank you so much for listening to this is horror podcast. Join us again next time when we will be chatting with Jennifer truedrung, the writer of the nest, which is available to watch to stream right now, but if you want to get that ahead of the crowd, if you want to get every episode ahead of the crowd, then become our patron@patreon.com forward slash, this is horror. And look, I know that the last few months we've had a little bit less content, both on the podcast and on Patreon, but we are back. We are really taking things to the next level in terms of the content that we're putting out. So if you want to see what this is horror is all about, if you want to see what Patreon is all about, now is the time to join us. Not only, as always, do you get early bad access to each and every episode. Do you have the ability to submit questions to each and every interviewee, but you can be part of the writers forum on Discord, and you can have input in terms of the direction of this is horror. So you can reach out to me on Discord. You can send me a private message via Patreon. What do you want to see from this is horror podcast, because this is what it's all about. It's putting out the content that you want and talking about content. We have quite a bit coming up. We will soon be chatting with cat valent, or it may be Valente. I've never actually heard her interviewed before, so obviously I will be looking that up before we chat with her, so I can get the pronunciation right. We've also got Haley Piper, Cena paleo, Cassandra core, Alex e Harrow. So plenty of great writers coming up on the this is horror podcast. And if you want to submit a question to any of them, as I say, it's patreon.com, forward slash, this is horror. And if you're looking to have a story edited, reach out to me. Michael at, this is horror.co.uk I'm taking on new clients right now. I've got quite a bit of space in August. So now is the time, and if you want to advertise on this podcast, like our sponsors of today's episode, then again, reach out to me. Michael, at this is horror.co.uk. When that said, I think it is apropos to have a little word from our sponsors,

Speaker 1 1:09:31
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Bob Pastorella 1:10:27
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Michael David Wilson 1:10:54
Well, to wrap up, I would like to end With a quote, and this is from Mahatma Gandhi. No human being is so bad as to be beyond redemption. And you know, that really fits in with what I was saying in the outro to the Anthony Johnston episode. You know, I really do believe in redemption. I don't think there's anyone who has rung to me so much that I don't honestly believe that, you know, they are beyond redemption. And a lot has happened in my life. A lot has happened, you know, fairly recently, but I think we are all capable of redemption. No one's beyond that. So you know, it really fits with the theme of being kind to one another and not knowing the battles that other people are going through. So until next time with Jennifer true drunk, take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have a Great, great day. You.

Bob Pastorella 1:12:28
This is horror podcast, music.

Michael David Wilson 1:13:09
I don't even fully know what you're talking about, Bob like I don't know what you don't entirely know what you're talking about, and I'm not even sure if this was just a max booth invented quote, or if at some point, Stephen King actually said that. I don't need to know,

Bob Pastorella 1:13:29
I'm gonna scare the hell out of you. But

Michael David Wilson 1:13:33
he didn't add,

Bob Pastorella 1:13:37
if he did a rom com, he would have to add that to that.

Michael David Wilson 1:13:40
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah,

Bob Pastorella 1:13:44
yeah, see that the laughter now kind of loses its power when I have to explain it.

Michael David Wilson 1:13:50
You know, don't fucking worry. I can edit it out. You've got your power or

Laurel Hightower 1:13:57
at a laugh track, either way. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:14:00
yeah, yeah, there are some absolutely terrible precepts that I have on my audio editing program. Never use them. It'd be pretty funny for for Episode 404 we've actually added a laughter track. What are we? A 90 sitcom.