Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to This is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode, alongside my co host, Bob pastorella, we chat with masters of horror about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more. Now today's guest is Haley Piper. She's the author of several books, including the possession of Natalie, Glasgow, Benny rose, the cannibal king, queen of teeth and unfortunate elements of my anatomy. Now we talk about the latter two in this conversation. We also talk a little bit about post pandemic horror writing, how Hayley thinks the pandemic will affect horror writing for the next five to 10 years. We talk about what Haley should be kinder to herself, a lot more. This is the second of a two part conversation. As always, you can listen to the conversation in any order. So by all means, listen to this now and then. Go back to 409 when you're done. Okay, before we get into things, a little bit of an advert break. Crystal

Bob Pastorella 1:41
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Michael David Wilson 2:43
alright? Well, with that said, Here it is. It's part two with Hayley Piper on this is horror. So you released your short story collection back in May, unfortunate elements of my anatomy, and in terms of that title, I believe there's an interesting story as to how that came about.

Hailey Piper 3:11
Yes, so I was in the car with my wife, and we were I was just chatting about, like, Lady stuff, and I phrased it as unfortunate elements of my anatomy, and she immediately stopped me from saying whatever else I was going to say next. And she was like, write that down like that sounds like a good title. And so I did, because, you know, I listened and I do what she tells me to and and she was right, because I was like, before I had put the manuscript together of the short stories, but I was going to title it, um, feast for small pieces based on the first story in there. But once like that came up, I was like, Oh, this. This would make a I'm not going to use this title for the for a short story. This is, this is title for the short story collection. It just thematically works. Um, yeah, so that's, that's how that came out, honestly, like, aside from the possession of Natalie Glasgow, like every most of my books have had something to do with my wife. As far as titling is concerned. Um, I was thinking about changing the title to the warmerness kings, because I was like, I think this would be confusing to people. And she's like, Don't you dare change that. It's interesting. People are going to wonder what it's about, and then they're going to read it. Queen of teeth is funny because she actually hated that title. And we ended up circling around a bunch of other titles before finally, just coming back to that. But it was good that she tested it and such, and just, yeah, there's a few. There's a couple other manuscripts coming in the future where it's just like, just kind of workshopped with her, like no no angels past Sunday. Around the splatter Western and that that's another one. So, yeah, she's, she's, she's, she doesn't think she's good with that stuff, but she is, or at least she's good at telling me what not to choose as the title for a thing, right,

Michael David Wilson 5:12
right? And has she been won over now with Queen of teeth after, you know, initially not enjoying the time, yeah.

Hailey Piper 5:23
Well, that's funny too, because she forgot all about that title, and then when I told her that that was what the publisher felt would be the strongest title, she was like, Oh, awesome. And I was like, You hated that title. And she's like, Oh, I did. Oh, okay, well, whatever. Okay,

Michael David Wilson 5:40
that's a good reaction. It sounds like maybe she she didn't hate it as much as you know, I guess you thought she did, or she forgot how much she hated it. She

Hailey Piper 5:52
forgot. She forgot, and that's okay, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 5:55
now, who is responsible for the cover art for Queen of teeth, because that, that is one hell of a cover, right there?

Hailey Piper 6:05
Well, so the, there's a hardcover, there's a there's a limited edition hardcover that has very pretty cover art, and that's by Nicholas Day. But I'm proud. I'm going to guess you're you're referring to the paperback that is got the eyeballs and teeth and and the division, yeah, between the face, yeah, that's Don noble. So the Nicholas Day and Don noble are both the owners of Rooster Republic, which through which, strange house books is an imprint, and that's the publisher for Queen of teeth, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 6:39
and just the color palette on it. I mean, it's got a very kind of Neon Demon almost effect into the colors. One could argue that that is certainly going along with the gay as fuck ascetic. It is amazing. So too,

Hailey Piper 6:56
I agree. I feel that it definitely screams that kind of thing as well as, you know, teeth and tentacles and all that fun stuff too.

Michael David Wilson 7:04
Yeah, it's just perfect. It's perfect. But now I, now, I want to see the hard the hard cover art, and, um, it may be that the power of the internet will allow me to do that right. Search

Hailey Piper 7:19
for Queen of teeth on Google. It should come up as one of the images.

Michael David Wilson 7:23
Yeah, that is exactly what I'm doing. I'm not normally, oh, okay, I don't know if this makes great audio, to be honest, everyone Google alone, unless you're driving then, you know, come back to this bit, but that is very striking and completely different, like, but, but they work together. They're like, one of a piece. Yes,

Hailey Piper 7:57
that's it. I'm sorry, and I keep almost cutting you off, and I'm sorry. Yeah, I feel that each captures a different element of of Queen of teeth, that the hardcover cover is, is very like drawing into her stare. It's it's gentle in an interesting way. I think it captures some of the more the softer elements of that, like more of the a little bit of the the weird love story in it, some of the playfulness of magenta in the story, and the curiosity, whereas the paperback cover is much more of the visceral body horror that you experience in the book.

Michael David Wilson 8:40
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hailey Piper 8:43
And it captures the division of, kind of, the division between Yahya and magenta, the kind of the whole sibs issue in the book, the the the honestly, the the idea of the chimeras in the book in the first place, the genetic difference, the twin thing, yeah, each, each one, captures a lot of different things, but it's together. They do kind of express the

Michael David Wilson 9:09
book, yeah, I kind of want a print of the paperback version, just like frame that and put that on my wall.

Hailey Piper 9:19
I think they do sell them in the rooster Republic shop. I'm not sure I know that they sell, like, stickers and little cards of the hardcover art.

Michael David Wilson 9:28
Yeah, yeah. They definitely need to, yeah. I mean, you said they do so good. They need to, and they're doing that. That's great, yeah. And of course, I mean, you said with, I think it was Natalie Glasgow that you kind of started at the point where things get interesting. And boy, oh, boy, do you do that with Queen of teeth. You are not messing. About when that starts. And, I mean, yeah, to find something growing inside her. And of course, initially, it kind of has to bring to mind the movie teeth, which I'm sure you're familiar with. I hope I've got that title, right? That's the title, yeah? But then, you know it, it morphs into something so much different to that, something that I think you know, David Cronenberg would be pretty proud of

Hailey Piper 10:39
it. It's, it's funny. Yeah, I wanted to, I mean, I wasn't sure where things were going to go, because this, this story, like, you know, like, Yaya herself morphs, morphed so many times as I was telling I must have been like, the in the middle of, right? And typically, I'm very much a don't revise, don't rewrite until you've finished the draft. Type of writer that was not the case with Queen of teeth. I was changing whole chapters while I was in the middle of, like, I'd be in the middle of writing the second act and changing a bunch of stuff with the first act. Like, I must have rewritten the first act, like, you know, more times than anything else, there's like, 100 pages of cut material because of just alternative versions of events, characters being merged together or cut out of the narrative or complete like events that don't happen because I, like, figured this other thing out, and just a very, very messy, very messy process, not anything like what I've done with other books, because I kind of was just trusting, like Yaya was such a such a like, the kind of character who takes over a narrative, like I had different plans for where this story was going to go, and she just did not give a shit. Yeah? Like I would try to write something based on what I planned, but it wouldn't feel right. And I have this thing where when a character's doing something that I like in my subconscious, I like, I feel like I know that they wouldn't do when I messed that up, it bothers me the whole day. So I spent months being constantly bothered, until I just gave in and just changed and changed, and I got to, like, probably I would say, into the climax, into a completely different climax, before I just rewound and just started rearranging a bunch of things and changing them again. Yeah, yeah, it was just, it was such a chaotic process. And I kind of hope enough no other book ever puts me through that. But I'm really happy with how things went. And then, you know, Nicholas Day of Rooster public and I went through that draft and like, we re we rearranged some things some more to try to just improve the pacing a bit. And it worked out really well. Like he had a lot of great ideas for just kind of little little tweaks here and there that really made it a lot smoother after, after such a messy, you know, getting that thought process of getting that far, yeah, God, I can't, I can barely even remember what it used to be like. There was, like a there was like a road trip in there. At one point, was the plan, like, she was supposed to leave Newark after the the second night at um docks. And that didn't like, that was like, this makes no sense. And then it was just, it was so much weirdness, but I'm really happy with how things turned out. And I think, I think at a point, and I didn't realize it until, like, Magento is really becoming a bigger and bigger presence in the story. Was just, I wanted this to be like, going when sounds ridiculous, but I wanted to go where no vagina didn't Tata story is gone before, and I wanted to go bigger in that aspect. So I just stopped saying no to myself, like that was the that was the thing that saved me with this manuscript, was, and ultimately the book was that I just stopped saying no to myself every time I had a weird inclination. I didn't worry about the plan I was doing, I just started being like, yeah, you know what, let's do it. And that led to all kinds of interesting things, like the cop tanks and the like the mazers and the and the interesting transformations and the shit with Bryant Peters and just all this crazy stuff happened, just because I was just like, Yeah, you know what? Let's just do it whatever. I mean, I'm not, I'm like, I'm gonna go gung ho on whatever nonsense that I'm come up with. And I will, I'll figure it out. And ended up making a lot of sense, like, a lot of stuff. Like, was just like, I want to do this. And then I started looking into it. And then I was like, hey, there are actual scientific principles that back up what I'm doing, which. Is always nice, like, you don't have to care about that, but it's kind of cool when it works out that way. But yeah, so I just lost what I where I was going with that. But, yeah, don't I? I've said this before, but I pretty much just, eventually, just filled up a bucket with my personality and dumped it all over the book. And that's, that's, that's, that's where we are now. That's what it became.

Michael David Wilson 15:23
Yeah, I kind of think it would be a bold and amazing move to just have on the back of the book to go when no vagina then taka story has ever gone before. I kind of love it as a tagline, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 15:40
You know, and when I think it's cool, I finished reading it. And of course, immediately I got these, these David Cronenberg vibes, which is always a good thing, um, because he's, he's like, my hard daddy. And so I felt very comfortable reading this, and what I found is that the the more crazy it gets there, you're writing with confidence and you're you're writing with in what I would consider considerable restraint, whereas, because I've seen other other writers trying to take their stories where, where it really, gets really, really wild, and it just, it just feels, sometimes it feels rushed. And there's, there's no rush here. And that's it was that was very refreshing in and I was reading at a feverish pace at the end, I would say, like the last half was done, like in two cities. I'm a notoriously slow reader. So yes, if you're listening and you're on the fence about this, get get just go ahead and move on to the other side of the fence, because you need this book. You really, really, really need this book.

Hailey Piper 17:04
Thank you so much. I there, and there was a method to that. Honestly, the I kind of was, like, I didn't want to introduce too much at once to the readers. I wanted it to be one step at a time. And that's probably why there's, like, 30 chapters. I don't think any of my other books have this many chapters are divided into this many chapters, but I wanted things to go, you know, each step is a new idea, and I didn't want there to be too many new ideas at a time, and anything that was going to be too out there, like, you know, there's room to plant that. Like, the predator engine doesn't come out of just nowhere. It's, it's, it's there a little bit earlier. It's, it's hinted at first. It's just like, yeah, Alphabet pharmaceutical makes weapons. And then you've got Greenwich being essentially a huge fanboy about, like, I get to ride in the giant, you know, giant horrible death machine. And then, yeah, and then it comes into play, you know, for real, just things like that. And I wanted it to be, you're going through it, mostly, like a lot of it, through yaya's point of view. I mean, you get you slowly, it becomes more about Doc's point of view. But I wanted it to be a lot of things where, like, not too much for her to handle at once, either. Even, as you know, the disgusting stuff happens at certain points, which also that's a fun story separately, but I'm just like, I ended up surprising myself because I sent the manuscript off and kind of forgot about some things because of the chaotic nature of writing it. I kind of forgot some what, what was, some things that were in the manuscript and what got cut. So when you know edits came back from the editor. I was going through it, I ended up, I ended up making my own blood run cold at one point because I was like, Oh my God, that's disgusting. Oh my god. I couldn't believe I'd written that. And I was just like, well, it's staying in considering got that reaction out of me and I'm the one who wrote it, yeah, yeah. Because usually that doesn't happen. It's so funny when people talk about the climax of Benny rose, and they're like, oh my god, I was eating. I shouldn't have been eating, and other stuff like that. And I'm just like, I didn't really think about it while I was writing it. Like I didn't, I didn't, I felt what the characters were going through, but I didn't really feel like what was physically happening. So like, I'm realizing people who are reading it were engaging in that and I'm like, I am so sorry. I would have, I wouldn't have done what I did in that end of that book if I'd realized that was happening. This one was a bit more deliberate, where once I realized that I was bothering myself. A little bit. It's like, Yeah, but you know, that's kind of what you have to do sometimes, like, I feel like, if you're completely unfeeling about it, you're not going to make the connection you want. Because I don't just want, obviously, I don't want somebody just be disgusted, like, I want them to get something out of it. And I think that, like, a certain disgusting thing that happens, like in chapter nine, ends up improving the relationship between Yaya and magenta bit, because you you see that magenta will does care about what Yaya feels, at least as far as what their diet is concerned. It's not completely selfish. This sounds like nonsense to anyone who hasn't read the book,

Michael David Wilson 20:46
and that's just a reason for them to go out and and read it, and then, you know, you can listen to the interview again. Double value,

Hailey Piper 20:59
yeah, this, and that's, and that's one of the things with this. This is probably, I don't know what the right word is, like the world building of it is thicker, I guess is what the word I'll choose, then other books. I mean, there's a lot going on in, like Queen of teeth and stuff. But I didn't, I just are not queen of teeth, the worm and his kings. But honestly, I left out so much of the I left out so much of the lore from that book because I really wanted to be this very lean book that was like, You know what Monique wants, what Monique cares about, is what this book's going to be in, anything that isn't touching on that I'm just not, I'm not going to force it into the narrative where it doesn't belong. So like, yeah, so people ask me questions, and I'd be like, Ah, well, I'm trying to think of a way to explain that that actually is based on what's in the book and not getting into all this other crap that I left out. Whereas queen of teeth it even though there's a lot of stuff that didn't get into the book, it's at least touched on. So it just, there's a lot going on in it. There's a lot of terms and thoughts and just kind of, like, there's a lot of ideas that you don't really have to engage with if you don't want to, but they are there if you find yourself like caring about this world.

Bob Pastorella 22:17
Yeah, I can see that. And it just, I don't know, it hit upon so many different levels, like the the corporation, the evil corporation, how they own 50% you know, and it's, it's like, it's, it's so deep. And to me, it's like, there's, that's, that's like, I grew up watching movies about this stuff, you know, like similar things, and I hated those corporations. And it's like, oh man, you know. So when they you know, and I'm just, I'm not gonna say anything else, but you know, it's refreshing to see that, that sometimes, you know, things can can end in such a way. Yes, that's what it like, that they can end in such a way.

Hailey Piper 23:10
Yeah, I, I mean, I don't think I was subtle about the feelings of the book. You know, there's just this rampant militarization of like, law enforcement, there's just this complete dominance of this corporation in things, to the point that they just like, you know, it's and this, like, it's not a spoiler, but, you know, in chapter three, it kind of references how they, they went into court about the whole fact that, yeah, we infected a lot of pregnant people with this and weird stuffs happening, and it's kind of this, like, we don't actually know how this thing, this, this, you know, contagion we created works. So, you know, stuff's gonna happen. But you know, considering that, there's people who wouldn't exist the way they do, unless we had done that, we should get, we should be able to profit off of it, and that the government's just like, Yeah, sounds reasonable,

Unknown Speaker 24:05
yeah.

Bob Pastorella 24:08
It sounds so real. Because, I mean, it's just like, we're kind of, I feel like we're at that point with with most governments now, they're just going to come out and say, Yeah, we screwed up, and we did that and but there's a lot of benefits from it, and we should be able to make able to make money from all of it.

Hailey Piper 24:24
Absolutely,

Michael David Wilson 24:26
yeah, and I think it's really apropos that this was the book that was the kind of messiest and the most chaotic to write. I mean, obviously, perhaps at the time, not the best of experiences for you as the writer, but it just seems Yeah, so apt for the experimentation and just for the absolute wildness and chaos of you know what's happening here?

Hailey Piper 24:56
Yeah? Um, no, it definitely was stressful. And it's so funny because, like, my, my wife and I had talked about how just the concepts of it, and, like, you know, both the vagina, but also, like, the, you know, the different things that happen with yaya's body and, you know, magenta developing and such, and just all these different things. And it was just like, we kind of like, this is going to be a really niche book. I wasn't honestly sure I was going to find a publisher for it, but it ended up working out really well. And it's, it's been nice seeing people really excited about it and interested in it, and getting responses from some people who have said like that they you know, one reader was telling me how he was finishing up the book, and his girlfriend walked into the room and she was like, Are you crying? And he was just like, I'm just, I'm like, I'm nervous. I'm nervous how things are going to turn out. And it was like, and I know that sounds might sound silly, but like that meant a lot to me that that's some that the reader that, that that person was so invested in what was going on, and it's just like, or there was another reader on on Twitter who was just like, I am ready to go to war for this, you know, vagina monster. And I don't know how to feel about that. Yeah. And like, that's like, that's really what I wanted, because it, it is about that kind of thing. It is about like, you know, just because somebody's weird, and I know typically, typically, the people you meet in life are not going to have vagina monsters in them, but like, just the idea of, like, you know, somebody may be weird and such, but like, there's still a person that doesn't mean that a company gets to decide that they own them and or that they don't have bodily autonomy. And that's part of where it's I feel like, even though the main characters of this are not trans, that this is my most trans book, because that's something that is just constantly an issue. And I don't want to go on a soapbox or or rant or anything, but just like, just in a sense that there's a lot of decision making by, you know, people who are not going to be affected by it, about what someone can do with their body, and that goes through, you know, women's rights the body, whether they're cis or trans, you know, just in general, just this idea of, like, whether we are able to have any say over that. And I, I think if, like, I know, I don't want to put messages in my book. I want to have like, their invitations to conversations is, is how I look at it, but I do think that there's this idea of, like, well, what's going to happen if you keep crushing people down? What's going to happen if you keep constraining them? I'm not saying that there's going to be, like, you know, vagina monsters everywhere, but it's just not like, it's not the kind of, you know, you're setting this pot of water over flame, and you're keeping the lid on it, and it's like, you know, you can't do that to people forever. You can't do that to human beings forever. You and I think, and that goes even beyond the trans elements, and just goes to, in general, just people being squeezed and squeezed by corporations, just like alpha beta pharmaceutical in the book. And just like, you know, the government in the book and the, you know, militarized forces in the book, like it just, it can't go on forever. Yeah, nor should it. Yeah, off my soapbox.

Michael David Wilson 28:36
No, of course it's so it's so very valid what you're saying and necessary, really. And yeah, so you stay on the soapbox as long as you like. But I mean, you said earlier in the conversation about how you initially wanted to be a movie director, and I think, I mean, a number of your books would be great on screen. So I wonder both, are there any conversations in terms of having some film adaptations of your stories, and then specifically with you and movies? I mean, is this something you're still on some level hoping to pursue, whether as a director or a screenwriter or some other involvement? So yeah, let us know your thoughts on that.

Hailey Piper 29:37
Well. As far as conversations, all I can say is yes, and I can't say more than that. There are the my, my film agent, Carmen, wells, the rights factory is very hard worker. She's, she's, she's actively pursuing a lot of things. And so stuff is happening, but I can't talk about any of it. Sure as far as involvement goes, not really that's I remember there was a point where I knew I didn't want to ever be a film director, and it was when I was in college, and I had the Hellboy DVD, and they had like a two hour thing on it. That was all the stuff that went on with behind the scenes, and I realized how much if you care about what you're doing, like Guillermo del Toro obviously does when he's making a movie, oh my god. Like, I was just like, I can't I? No way. No, thank you. Like the the level of responsibility and the number of, you know, hats you have to wear, and how many, like, you know, balls you're juggling or whatever. It's just, it's just no, that's not for me. Not really, honestly, my opinion with that is I know a lot of people with adaptations, they kind of want them to just like some people just want it to be the source material in a different format, like they want to see the book put on screen. That's not how I am, though. I honestly I prefer things to be very different. I like it to to capture the spirit of the thing, or like this, the, you know, the major elements and tell its own thing, like annihilation, is a good example. I saw the movie first, you know, back in 2018 when it came out in theaters, and I loved it. And only this year did I read the book, and I also love that, but they are very different things. And so my opinion with my work is I've already told my version of the story, and if I were to try to do that myself, it would just be the book on screen. And I don't think that's the best thing you could do, because somebody else may read one of my books and be like, Oh, I can see a movie of this, not this as a movie, but a movie of this, if that makes sense. And yeah, and I would much, I would be more interested in that, because then I get to, I get to experience it from somebody else's vision, their their, their version of this. Because that's, I think goes back to what we were talking about, the beginning of the conversation with, like fanfic and such, is just and then the next step from that, which is people taking public domain things, and you know, changing in this sense, it's obviously more constrained, because it's not public domain or anything, but it is more like you get to, At least see someone else using those things you created to tell something a little different. That's also something a bit the same. Um, it, but it ends up being something new. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 32:49
So I think the takeaway here, really is, if come and can have a little conversation with del Taro, and let's see, you know what, what is, what is his vision for Queen of teeth. But in all seriousness, I think that would be fucking awesome. I would love Tarot. Could do with this?

Hailey Piper 33:09
Oh, my God, you know, that's it. That's funny. You say that, because when I was writing about, I think it's the 10th floor in the book, where the the exhibit hall that Doc visits a couple times, I made sure I thought about him, because he, his movies always have things in jars, and so I made sure to describe some things in jars, because I just felt like that was, I just felt like that was the right thing to do. And I was like, yeah, like, you know, that's that. That was the little bit of Guillermo del Toro influence into the book was that, was that, that description of that area, yeah, which ended up being a major plot point because of, because of the Kentucky incident and Camille, which, oh, I should plug that. Um, if somebody reads queen of teeth and they want a little more from that world. There's going to be an anthology from perpetual motion machine publishing lost contact. And the story in that, my story in that, is Life begins at injection, and that is about the Kentucky incident from Camille's point of view, like everything that happens pretty much before doc shows up.

Michael David Wilson 34:26
Nice, very nice. And actually, Max spoof recently put out the titles for the lost contact anthology, and was asking people you know, which of the story titles did they think stood out? And Life begins at injection. What's the title that intrigued me? It's like, yeah,

Hailey Piper 34:50
oh, that's funny, yeah. And the funny thing is, I guess I can talk about this on here. The funny thing is, um, so I wrote that story before I wrote the book, and it. End up kind of being like a proof of concept a little bit, because I kind of was just doing what I wanted with the story and it, you know, obviously, with a story like that, it's only a fragment of that world, and like a teenager isn't necessarily going to know all the backstory of things that Yaya does as you know, as an adult and stuff, as much as Yaya does not pay attention to a lot of things, but I wrote it, and I was like, because I had, I had queen of teeth in the back of my mind. I had a lot of notes, but I wasn't sure if it was a good idea. I was a bit iffy about, again, the whole, like, you know, the relationship between this woman and her vagina monster and another woman. And I wasn't sure about it, but I wrote, I wrote. I wrote life begins an injection. And I was, I kind of was just like, Yeah, you know what, yeah, I'm going to write this book, which is, and it's funny, because that didn't, yeah, that didn't finding a publisher till later because it fit the submission call. But it ended up being the thing that was just like, Yeah, you know, I'm gonna write. I'm gonna write queen of teeth. And if it worked out,

Michael David Wilson 36:22
yeah, yeah. And actually, all of

Hailey Piper 36:25
my books have started as short stories first, that just kind of either ended up not working as short stories or or Springboarding into something else,

Michael David Wilson 36:32
yeah, yeah. It's interesting how that can happen with a lot of people. And we were speaking with Catherine Valente recently, and she said that, like a lot of her, novels do, in fact, start as short stories. So it seems to be something that fairly frequently happens, in fact, which

Hailey Piper 36:54
is awesome. I think, I think the neat thing with that is short stories are often more experimental, at least, that I found. And so if one of those can leading to a book that I think that ends up making a really neat kind of it ends up being a neat kind of book, you know, from the from, at least from my point of view,

Michael David Wilson 37:20
yeah, I think it's great at the moment, the sheer variety of horror and genre books that we're getting. I mean, we were talking before about unnerving and and, you know, just how kind of experimental, you know, those books are. But, I mean, I think we're kind of getting a renaissance of of horror right now, but in fact, not just a renaissance, but more an evolution. We're like, seeing how far things can be pushed. And we're having, like, more exciting, original voices and perspectives, and I think, you know, the like of which has never been seen. And we need to continue that. We need these fresh stories. It's so exciting.

Unknown Speaker 38:10
Absolutely agree.

Bob Pastorella 38:13
I like how it's it's pushing in all directions. It seems like, you know, in especially like in the in the 80s and stuff like that. I guess, you know, the slasher, you know, reigned, that was, that was the, the theme of horror. But now we, we're seeing it in in all directions and all subgenres. It is expanding, you know, just globally. It's going to take over, and it already has. It's been doing it for a long time. But you know, it's, I love it. I love it because it's like, no matter which direction you turn, there's always something there that's going to interest you. It's going to make you want to read it. And we're getting more and more people involved in reading and creating on their own, and it's just, it's, it's a fucking awesome time to be in right now. Absolutely.

Michael David Wilson 39:09
Yeah, I wonder of Your short stories in the collection, which was the toughest to write?

Hailey Piper 39:20
Oh, that's, thankfully, that's an easy question. Definitely the novelette at the end recitation of the first feeding. That one was a struggle, because originally I had originally that was kind of going to be an IT type of structure where it bounced back and forth between when the main character is a child and when they're an adult, and that's how I wrote it at first, and then when I realized that wasn't working, after I'd finished it, I had to spend a lot of time disentangling that and doing a lot of revisions to re smooth. It out, because just was kind of messy that way, because it was, it couldn't, it couldn't call back the way it was, especially since it was first person story, it only made it more confusing. So but eventually, eventually it got straightened out. And that one, it also was hard, because that was a very personal story I based a lot of it's a fictional town in that story, but it based a lot of it on, like, the area of New York I grew up in and and then after the collection was signed with the seventh terrace, that story went through more changes, like, just it was funny, because I cut it down a bit. I was trying to make it shorter and shorter so it wasn't going to be so much of a behemoth of a short story. And when the editor was going to going through it, and I was asking me questions, and I was like, well, this and all that. And she was like, well, we should touch on that in the story. We should expand on it a bit and end up growing back again to what its original what its original length was, just from making those little touches. So shorter isn't always better when it comes to short stories. Sometimes it really needs the story. Sometimes just needs to be what it needs to be, and we don't have. We often don't have as much say in that as we think we do, yeah, but yeah, so it was a lot that one went through a lot of developmental edits on my side, and then more developmental edits on the editing side with the publisher. So yeah, that was, that was a tough one, but it paid off, because, like, again, again and again, I see people listing that as they're like, like, they're like, Oh, I loved a lot of these stories. That one was the best one. That was my favorite. And even people who didn't like the collection so much have said, like, it's worth reading this story. So it just seems to be an all around like, crowd pleaser, I guess. So I'm glad for that, because, you know, obviously, you know, we like it when people like our work. But also it feels good because it was such a personal story, because it took so much effort to to pull it off.

Michael David Wilson 42:16
Yeah, and I think in terms of story length, the idea that the story needs to be, what it needs to be, is one that, you know, we all need to be mindful of.

Hailey Piper 42:28
I think I absolutely agree. Yeah, there can be, I see, sorry, go ahead.

Michael David Wilson 42:34
There can be a lot of people that they get an idea into their head like or writing a novel is the ultimate achievement, or this is a kind of higher form. But then because of that, you can see people kind of expanding and bloating a story that would actually have been better, just as a novella. And then equally, someone's writing a short story for a submission call maybe it's 5000 word limit, but it's like, this isn't, this isn't a short story. There's so much. So you just need to let go of that idea, let the story dictate what it is, and then, you know, if it doesn't meet the cool, then it doesn't meet the cool. I suppose. The only time this gets a little bit complicated is if, like, you know, you've got a book on contract with a big four publisher, and it's like, well, it was a short story, and they're like, well, we just paid you quite a big advance, so we made the novel,

Hailey Piper 43:40
yeah, yeah. And that's, and that, like, you can, and you can sometimes see that when you're reading a big four book, and it's like, this, this middle is a little soggy. There's like, 50 pages here that didn't need to be here. Like, if you just, if you snip this out, nothing changes. Yeah. But you know, that's one of the great things about indiehar, though, like the novella, is is so popular in indie har enough that some some in some areas, it's breaking through to being to the mainstream. You see more novellas in bookstores, because I think novellas are an awesome vehicle for horror. A lot, a lot of those stories are just there at their best when they're being a novella,

Michael David Wilson 44:28
yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a number of arguments that is the kind of perfect form for horror, which I kind of see to a point. But then, as we said before, well, the perfect form for a story is the form that that particular one needs to be. So, oh

Hailey Piper 44:48
yeah, I was trying to write once I decided to write queen of teeth as a book. I was trying to write it as a novella, and but after a point, I was like, that's not happening. And I think the sooner you surrender, because. Troll and realize you don't have a say in this stuff. If you want to make it the best version of self, the happier going to be, even if it means having to miss out on things here and there. Because, like that, art should exist in its best form, however long or short that is,

Michael David Wilson 45:19
yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think not being afraid to cut parts that not necessary, and not being afraid to add parts when necessary too, is kind of the key here, yeah,

Hailey Piper 45:35
and I think it's good to experiment with different sizes too, that way you can get comfortable with them. I think if somebody's always just like, okay, word count, goal is 70,000 words, because that's what I need to do for a novel. It's just like, or you just write things until one of them ends up being that long, and then that's where it is. Because I think it is good to practice with flash fiction and short stories, novelettes, novellas, you know, novels to work at all angles of that because, then, because, then you, you become more flexible, yeah, and then it's not such a big deal if that's if that particular story didn't end up the length you thought it maybe should be, because it ended up being the length it actually should be. And then you're free to go write something else. Instead of, kind of like, focus over focusing on it's like, Oh, why couldn't it have been a 70,000 you know, word novel, like, I have to change it into that. It's like, Don't Frankenstein it just, just write something else. Because the more flexible you get with that, the more fluid you with that, more you with that, more you can write, and the less it's it's the end of the world because your plans didn't work out.

Michael David Wilson 46:47
Yeah, yeah. And like you say, there's a number of mainstream publishers now that are putting out novellas. So I wonder if this kind of weird snobbishness about the novel being the superior form will start to die out. And, you know, to be honest, I think when I was younger, I had that snobbishness as well. It was like, you know, I want to write a novel that's kind of the highest form. But, you know, luckily I realized, well, no, I just want to write a damn good story, or I want to tell the story that I want to tell. And yeah, yeah, that's the most I think.

Hailey Piper 47:29
I think letting go of that kind of control idea is ends up being the more powerful thing, because then you can work with anything. You can do anything. Yes. And I like, honestly, I was, I was that way too, not, not like I was looking down on other stuff. I just didn't realize there were other options. Yeah, because the publishing industry was very like, novel, novel, novel. It's just like, well, I guess that's what I have to do. And I think that, like, obviously that's not like, what caused depression with me or anything. But, like it did stifle me creatively for a long time before I realized that, like, yeah, you are free to just just just write and not worry about it. And if I had waited until I was ready to do a novel, like all the experience I would have gained from writing all those short stories and novellas, and especially from working with so many different editors. I mean, like working with more editors is one of the best things you can do for your for your craft, because you you get to see some of the things that maybe you're, you know, doing consistently, that maybe aren't the most you know fluid of things, or maybe aren't you know. Are you like? You learn things. You learn new things from from working with other people and like, like, that's the biggest benefit of having sold so many short stories, is because after that comes editing and working with the editor and making it its best version of itself. And sometimes that's just a little bit of changes, and sometimes it's a lot of changes. But you, you know, you obviously learn cooperation and stuff, and you also learn sometimes when you need to put your foot down and say, well, this, this is important this way, but and find and identifying what those differences are, but getting that experience, getting to see so many stories from another person's point of view, helps hone your craft into better idea. Because, because all of this is just trying to communicate like we're trying to communicate what we're thinking about into a text form, and then we're trying to communicate that text form to somebody else's imagination. We don't have an imagination to imagination pipeline, like, straight away, this is how we do it. And so when you're improving your craft by experiencing how other people are seeing your stuff, you're learning how ideas get across. And obviously it's not like 100% like sometimes, on occasion, you're going to get an editor who doesn't understand what you were going for. Or you're gonna have a disagreement or whatever. I had one story where the editor was kind of trying to turn it into a YA story, and it was very much not a YA story. And we, I kind of had to stick up for the vision there. But I mean, that's, that's a that's an outlier, like most of the time. These are positive experiences. And you know, you get you learn so much. And I'm just repeating myself at this point, but it's just, it's, it's very valid. It's really valuable to be able to engage that way, because then it just goes back to flexibility. It goes back to being able to do all kinds of different things. And, you know, isn't that what we want as artists that we get to do all kinds of different things? Yeah, and I would have had any of that if I hadn't been willing to write short stories and write novellas and just let these things be. A 15,000 foot word book here, a 32,000 word book there, or, you know, at 700 word story here, an 8500 word story there, you know, just, just being able to diversify what you're doing,

Michael David Wilson 51:10
yeah, and, I mean, it can be so frustrating, you know, like the experience of the editor trying to turn your story into a YA story, Because it's like, well, now you're kind of doing what I'm not meant to do. You're trying to put it in a box that it can't fit in, so let's just, right, keep it in its original box, please.

Hailey Piper 51:31
Right. But again, that's, that's a rare experience, yeah, um, at least for me. Like, I've, I've worked with, like, I've worked with like, over 60 editors for different short stories. And, you know, like one bad experience out of all that is pretty good. I think,

Michael David Wilson 51:50
yeah, yeah, I'd say, so definitely. Well, I wonder, what should you be kinder to yourself about,

Hailey Piper 52:03
oh God, like it's, I don't know. I mean, do I really deserve that? I don't know. Probably scheduling stuff. Honestly, I kind of overbooked myself a little bit, and then I feel guilty about it. And I think the obvious solution there is one, stop beating myself up over it, and to probably stop doing that, and not not overextend because, like, I try to do a lot because, I mean, that's I love writing. I enjoy it, so I do it constantly, because I'm just, I'm, I'm having a blast. Like, I've heard Stephen Graham Jones talk about how, like he just, he writes so, so much. He writes more than than is getting published at it at a time. Like, that's, that's the same with me. I'm, I'm just constantly writing so sometimes I over commit with that. I assume too much about what I'm going to try to do. Like, I'm not trying to be. Like, what's like that? You know, that classic work interview question, like, what's your biggest loss? Like, oh, I work too much. Do I care too much, but, but, you know, I, you know, you, you see all those submission calls sometimes, and like, if for whatever reason, every three or four months, a bunch of them cluster their the deadlines up together. And so, you know, there's a bunch of us, poor writers trying to make it all work. And like, you gotta let it go. You gotta let some of them go. You gotta decide what, which ones you care about, and forgive yourself for that. And that's one of definitely something I need to be nice to myself about, because I'm just like, I really would love to do that one. I really like working with that editor, but I just don't have the energy with all these other things that I'm doing, I just can't do it. And I'll I'll get on I'll get down on myself about it, because I'm but it's just like we can't do everything. We don't even if you love it, even if you love it more than anything else you do. There's only so much time and energy and and it's just it's pointless to berate yourself for that. I say as somebody who does berate herself for that?

Michael David Wilson 54:22
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I tend to find that sometimes, you know, it's like, listen to what I'm saying, not necessarily what I'm doing, because I'm trying to listen to myself too. But it right. It's difficult, and our mind can be unreliable and cruel and say unreasonable things to ourselves that we wouldn't say to other people. So yeah. Well. Ryan Whitley, via Patreon, would like to know how. Do you think the pandemic will affect horror writing for the next five to 10 years? That is a massive question.

Hailey Piper 55:11
Yeah, that's a, that's a juicy Well, I've already seen it affect some things, because, like I mentioned earlier, I've been, I was a guest editor for Planet scum, and we saw a few pandemic stories, and I've seen those pop up here and there. And so I expect we will see more kind of virus or contagion or like outbreak type of stories than we were previously. But I think the bigger thing is kind of going to be the collective trauma of it, people experiencing a lot of isolation, or a lot of kind of repetition, or, like, a greater sense of apathy with things like, I'm sure cosmic car is going to continue to grow in popularity because of, you know, as a as a response to the pandemic, you know, it's, I think, transformation as Well, like I've noticed a lot of people have because they're not experiencing society and, like the general societal expectations, and they're not having to do certain things, have discovered different elements of themselves. I've seen a lot of people like questioning their you know, where their gender lies on the spectrum. A lot of people, or people discovering like, Hey, I'm I'm not straight, or even on, even on smaller things, just somebody being like, it really is like, they just don't want to wear makeup anymore, um, or don't want to do like, this job that they've been doing for like, 20 years. And once things have shifted, they're just like, I quit. And I'm not saying that that is like, we're going to see horror stories of those things, but I think that those aspects can't help but creep in of just this sense of like, maybe through something terrible, gaining some control. You know, or or realizing something was terrible all along that you didn't notice before, because you were, you were still mired in it. Um, I can definitely, I mean, I feel, I definitely feel like we're seeing that with the pandemic. A lot of people waking up to like, hey, our our society is kind of a disaster, and they just didn't realize it before. Yeah, so I think those are the kinds of themes we're going to see more of as as people kind of are processing what's gone on with them in the pandemic, and hopefully the pandemic itself does not continue that long,

Michael David Wilson 58:04
yeah, but I guess as well, because the nature of the pandemic has meant more time alone and time with our own minds. That's why people have been able to make these discoveries about themselves and to really reflect on who it is they are, but also because we're almost removed from normal societal ways, such as going to our job and whatever else people can say. Actually, that's bullshit. I don't have to do that. And you know, we've been given an extended amount of time to see, you know, this is the alternative. So, right? I mean, obviously, on balance, I would have rather a global pandemic hadn't happened. But, yeah, there are some, some kind of positives to come out of it. Yeah, statement to make. But you know what I mean? Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 59:13
yeah. I mean it's, it's something that has affected every living person on the planet. There's not any one person or group of people who honestly don't know about it. They may not believe it, but though their awareness is on high, right? And it's going to be interesting to see how we know how things are affecting people, socially in groups, what's going to be interesting in fiction is how we see individuals grapple with those type of changes. And it's going to be really interesting to see how. How horror writers translate that into something that's an effective story, something that's original, something that we haven't seen yet. And I think it's it's going to be something that probably next couple years, somebody's going to write something that's going to blow our fucking minds. And I'm here, yeah,

Hailey Piper 1:00:21
yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:00:24
Well, thank you for spending the majority your evening chatting with us. This has been a lot of fun, and we've covered pleasure. Yeah, so much ground here. I wonder where can our listeners connect with you?

Hailey Piper 1:00:41
Um, well, my website finally got back up online today after being down for like three weeks. So you can go to www dot Haley piper.com, and I try to keep that updated with new information announcements, what books are out, what short stories are out. I'm also on Twitter at Haley Piper says, and I'm on Instagram as Haley Piper fights,

Michael David Wilson 1:01:08
all right, so whether you want saying or fighting, choose the social media for you.

Hailey Piper 1:01:18
Yeah, Instagram's a little more chaotic. So, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:01:21
yeah,

Hailey Piper 1:01:22
pick your poison.

Michael David Wilson 1:01:24
Yes, that's it. Well, do you have any final thoughts to leave our listeners with?

Hailey Piper 1:01:32
I would say, um, you know, horror is so varied, like we were talking about, with the sub genres expanding in all kinds of directions. There is something for everyone. And just go with what you like. Just go and check it out and enjoy it, and you'll have a blast. And just because there's there is something that can can feed each of us inside. And my end of it, make horror gay as fuck.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:07
Thank you so much for listening to the podcast of Haley Piper. Join us again next time for the special. This is horror award show 2020, but if you want to get that ahead of the crowd, if you want to get every episode ahead of the crowd, then become our patron@patreon.com forward slash. This is horror. Not only do you get access to each and every episode early bird, but you get to submit questions to each and every guest we have, the likes of Alex e Harrow and Cassandra core coming up soon. So if you want to get questions into them, it's patreon.com, forward slash. This is horror. Okay, before I wrap up a little bit of an advert break, winner

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Michael David Wilson 1:03:59
sometimes I wrap up with a quote, other times I wrap up with a thought. And today's thought is this whatever creative endeavor you're working on, remember it is oftentimes a marathon, not a sprint. So this really is a case of slow and steady. Does win the race, so just make sure that you're writing as often as you can, that you're putting in the work, and after time, you will see the rewards. Is often said that we overestimate what it is we can achieve in the short term, but we drastically underestimate what it is we can achieve in the long term. So keep going, keep writing. You've got this. And with that said, I will see you in the next episode for the this is horror award show. But until then, take care of yourself. Us be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have a Great, great day.