Michael David Wilson 0:07
welcome to This is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode, alongside my co host, Bob pastorella, week out with masters of horror about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more. Now today's guest is Sina paleo, and I believe Bob that you have her bio. Yes,

Bob Pastorella 0:59
it is Cynthia paleo is a two time Stoker Awards Nominated poet and author. She is the author of Lotteria, the missing poems of by night, her recent poetry collection into the forest and all the way through, explores crime fiction and the epidemic of missing and murdered women in United States. And was also nominated for a Bram Stoker award and Elgin award. Her modern day horror retelling of the pied piper fairy tale children of Chicago was released this year by agora polis books, and that is Cynthia paleo,

Michael David Wilson 1:30
all right. And as we have many of these conversations, this is a two parter. And in this the first part, I mean, we kick off talking about life lessons growing up in inner city, Chicago, and it must be one of the most powerful openings to a this is horror podcast we've had. I think it's right up there with the likes of John skip.

Bob Pastorella 1:55
Mm hmm. I definitely agree she, she had a tough upbringing. And it's, it's, and I just believe that it's really kind of shaped her, her life, her fiction. And it's, it's just, you get that inner city turmoil, and it did definitely shapes people,

Michael David Wilson 2:17
yeah, and this part is very much the personal, whereas the second part is more about writing. But we certainly do get into some writing tips, particularly how to write about villains and how to write about flawed characters. Well before the conversation, let's have a little bit of an advert break. I spacefaring

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Michael David Wilson 4:08
Okay. Well, with that said, Here it is. It is Cynthia Palea on this is horror. Cena. Welcome to This is horror.

Cynthia Pelayo 4:21
Thank you. Hi, thank you for having me.

Michael David Wilson 4:24
It's a pleasure, and been a long time coming. And I thought to begin with, let's jump into things. I want to know what some of the early life lessons were that you learned growing up in inner city, Chicago.

Cynthia Pelayo 4:39
Oh, wow. We're really, we're really starting. So, yeah, I am. So I was born in Puerto Rico, and my parents kind of went back and forth between the mainland and Puerto Rico. Both my brothers were born on. Mainland. So they were born in Chicago, and then my mother had some difficulty after her mother died, and so she they went back to Puerto Rico, and that's where they had me. And I was only there up until I was two, and then we moved to Chicago. My parents moved back to Chicago. They didn't move to the original neighborhood that they were in. So they moved into a neighborhood that was, like, really mixed. So it's like German Polish Hispanic, but we were, I think, I believe I'm on our block. We were the first Hispanic family. And within like, 10 years, like, you know, that we it was, it turned into, like, you know, 90% Hispanic neighborhood, mostly Puerto Rican Mexican. My husband's Mexican, and his family has a very similar story, where they came here, I believe his family came here in the early 80s. But, yeah, it was. It was a strange upbringing. My parents grew up in the 40s in rural Puerto Rico, and so I think a lot of it was a shock for them, like how we raise children when they really didn't have the most loving upbringing themselves, and then to bring them into a completely different type of environment. So I wasn't I grew up speaking English. They forced my parents forced that on me. I didn't learn Spanish and more formal Spanish into high school because my parents were very worried about us being discriminated that was a constant worry of my father. And my father had gone through quite a bit like he used to get kicked out of restaurants because they would hear his accent. He had been called names, he had been attacked, and my father was very like protective. He didn't want me to experience any racism. And I remember the first time I experienced it. It was a shock when I left my neighborhood. But, you know, we grew up in a very I think at the time it was, it was pretty it was still a poor community. Gangs were certainly part of the environment. Crime was a part of the environment. I have friends that were classmates, that were killed, and gang and crime we it was, it is the city. And so I think anything that you can imagine that that would entail I had been exposed to, I had seen, you know, 12 year old classmates be pregnant, which, you know, that was very confusing at that time. I have seen, you know, fights in the halls in high school breakout, and there's like, blood on the floor, and it was an environment where I had to find my place and be safe. And my place was, you know, with a very small group of people that, you know, we were very protective of one another. My parents were super, super protective. My high school was probably, like, two blocks down, and my dad would drive me to the front door. Everybody in the high school knew who my father was, because my parents were just terrified that something would happen to us, and I had a really good support system, but I think a lot of that trauma is still with me. You know, we're still I still live in the same neighborhood that I grew up in, and the neighborhood's changed. I mean, lots of parts of Chicago have changed because of gentrification, and I feel like at least for me, it was important to stay in the neighborhood that I grew up in, or at least in the area that I grew up in, to be a mentor to youth, to say that I know these are the struggles. I know that there's frustrations of poverty. I know there's there's the fear of gang and gun crime, but you can make a choice to select a certain path. I was the first person in my family to graduate from college. I remember getting my master's degree, and you know, the Dean of our School said, if you were one of the first people getting this degree today, stand up. And it didn't dawn on me at that point. I remember standing up and my father just completely crying because we didn't think that was a possibility. We thought, at least for me, I didn't think I would live past 21 just because of the environment that I grew up in. And I think a lot of that seeps into my writing. I. Wanted to be a journalist. I had like, these romantic visions of being like this, you know, community reporter and and I did. I worked as a community reporter for a little bit, but seeing crime face on again after finishing college, I couldn't take it anymore. And I feel like I had, like, a bit of a mental break after I arrived on a scene where there was this young man, and everybody in the neighborhood knew him, like he had just gotten out of jail. He had a girlfriend. He was young. He's probably, like, 1819, he was trying to get, you know, things together, and there was like, five bullet holes in his back, and the police were on one side screaming at me, and the community was on another side screaming at me, telling me the police shot and killed this young man. And I called my editor, and I was like, I can't I'm not gonna write it, because I'm gonna tell you what I see, and I see that this young man was murdered. So that's the story, and I'm done. And that was my end of my journalism career, because I just I couldn't speak objectively. At that point, I had seen what I couldn't deny, and I still wanted to keep writing. I just didn't think I could do journalism anymore. And so, like, my dream was always to go to the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. And I was like, Well, I can never someone like me. Can never go there, that fancy place. And I applied, and I got, I would get rejected, and the chair of the program called me at work, and he's like, can you get in a cab back then, this is before Uber. He's like, can you get in a cab and come down here and talk to me, because I want to understand what it is you want to do, because your portfolio shows journalism, and you're telling me you want to be a fiction writer, or you're telling me you want to just want to write creative fiction. Like, what does that mean? And I went and I spoke with him, and I told him, I want to write. I don't know what I want to say, but I cannot not write. And so I got accepted. After it was like, petitioned to the to the board that like, well, she can write, let her explore. And at the time, the School of the Art Institute didn't have, I don't know what it's like now, but genre was not something it was something that they looked down on at that time, and so they didn't know what to do with me. They were like, well, she's a journalist. She wants to explore this inner city experience that she lives with. What do we do with her? And so they teamed me up with my graduate advisors, became were the two playwrights in the program, because they thought, well, let's explore emotion, let's explore dialog. And throughout in that, in that experience, I discovered a lot of mystery and crime writing, and that just felt like it clicked, and I started being able to put connections together. And I think ultimately what I've been wanting to do is tell people what I've seen, tell people that I am I am not supposed to be here. I I do not I believe that I'm here on some luck or fluke or some, you know, the universe, kind of like, I don't know how I wound up

surviving that experience growing up. And, you know, maybe it was, you know, my my parents were just viciously protective and to the point where it was almost abusive and scary. I couldn't leave my bedroom, like, that's scary as a child, like, I can't leave my bedroom, I can't go sit on a porch, I can't talk to friends, because they were just so scared that I would get mixed up in something that I couldn't get out of and all I had in my bedroom was like a little TV and a little VCR and, you know, movies, and I watched a lot of monster movies. And it was that connection of being stuck in my house because I couldn't go outside, because there were gangs outside, and then also living that experience when I went to school. I mean, like my freshman year in high school, I think what was it? We started with 800 900 kids my freshman year and only, like 200 of us graduated senior year. We lost a lot of kids, and it was losing them because they were kicked out. They were pushed out. Being pushed out was definitely a thing. A lot of these children were pushed out. You know, gang violence was an issue, but these were really great kids that needed support. And I realized that the reason I was able to explore writing, I was able to go to college. Just because I had mentors, I had people that believed in me enough to say, Hey, you're going to be somebody. And a lot of these kids didn't, and that's part of why it was important for me to stay here. It's important for me to be a presence in this neighborhood, to be a mentor, because these are some of the most brilliant people I've ever worked with. And you know, we have we have grit. People from the inner city, like, you know, we we get, not we get, like, our entire identity and experience is getting knocked down, and people telling us no, and people telling us we're not good enough and we don't belong, and we just get back up because we have no choice. We don't have anything. I grew up with nothing. I started working when I was 14, and I started working because my parents couldn't afford to buy deodorant for me, like that's how tough it was. I couldn't get deodorant, so I had to work weekends. I started working full time at 17, and I'm 41 so I've been working full time and one job or another. Since I was 17, I've always worked because I it was the, I mean, it was embedded in me that you you need. We can't. My parents were always like, we can't help you. We can give you a roof over your head. We don't have any money to give you anything else. So that's a very long way of saying, This is how I've gotten here, and this is how I'm still here, but um, you know, I've worked hard, and writing has been a way to writing and monsters have been a way for me to kind of work through what I have lived through, and the people that I've lost and the people that I knew deserved better but couldn't get better, and I feel like I want to make them proud. I want to people to be proud of people in the city, and to show that there is beauty here, even though there's a lot of scary things here as well.

Michael David Wilson 17:01
My goodness that, wow, I don't even know where to go from there. Thank you so much for sharing everything with us. I think, I mean, I feel like I've been on a journey just listening to To everything there. And I mean, there's so many directions that we could now take this. But I wonder, as someone who, from an early age, didn't think you would live past 21 I mean, how did that inform your actions and choices that you made both the good and the bad.

Cynthia Pelayo 17:44
Um, I mean, I look back and I see a lot of situations where I was like, wow, if my child was in that situation, I would just like, pass out because I did some dumb stuff. I did some really scary things. Was around a lot of bad situations I probably shouldn't have been, and I have no idea. I have no idea, and that's, I have no idea how I've come up on the other side and I'm physically okay. I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't like, there was always threats. I mean, I've had, I remember, I remember one time. I have clear memory, my brother like, burst into my classroom one day, and he was like, we had any and the teacher was like, What's going and she just was, like, freaked out. And my brother's like, I need to take her because she's gonna get jumped and she's probably gonna get killed, because there was, like, eight girls that were planning to, like, jump me after high school, and that wasn't like, a good thing. And I think a lot of that was, I mean, I was the weird, you know, I was the weird kid in high school. And at that time, people in my neighborhood didn't have green hair and listen to like Nine Inch Nails, or like Kurt Cobain, and so I just people didn't understand me, and they thought I was very strange, and maybe that was scary to some people. And so I used to, I used to get beat up a lot in high school. I, you know, I remember getting my glasses like punched right off of me in the hallway by somebody. And I don't even know why, it's always scary. It was, it was scary. It's scary to be different. It was scary to be the weird kid, especially in this neighborhood back then and then, you know, in the 90s, where I didn't really have many places to turn to. I would just go home and cry and watch my monster movies, and that was my comfort like to see horror like that was. Only place I could turn because I couldn't get out. And, you know, working, maybe that's why I worked so hard. And I've always worked and worked full time, gone to school full time, because that was like a distraction too. Like, well, if I work, I don't have to worry that, you know, I'm dirt poor and I can't afford, you know, socks or something like, and I could work for this, you know, I remember. I remember even in college, like sleeping in my car in between classes, and there's like, this little deli, and like, the owners knew, like, I was completely broke. And like, for I would just give him $1 and he would just, like, give me, like, a grilled cheese sandwich and tea and french fries and whatever, because he knew that I was sleeping in my car. It's like freezing outside. I had, like, 20 minutes between my next class, and then I'd have to go and, you know, work a double shift at a restaurant. So I think I got a lot of that from my dad. You know, I remember, I remember my very first day going to college, and this is the first time I, you know, my first time ever being in a classroom with white people, because up until then, you know, most of my classmates were always Hispanic or or black. And so my first time in a classroom with white people, somebody called me a spec. It was a derogatory it was just like, I didn't even know how to process that, like, I remember coming home and telling my dad, I'm dropping out. And he told me, Well, why? And I told him, Well, somebody called me this name, and my dad's like, they're gonna call you everything get ready, because you're the only Puerto Rican girl in class. You think, you think this is going to end today. He's like, you can stay home. You can stay home and go work in the factory with your mom, or, you know, you know, stay at your the job that you're at and but this isn't going to end today. Like, I'm sorry that this is the first time you're experiencing this, but it's not going to go away. And I don't know, I, you know, I went through my four years of college always being like the only Puerto Rican growing class. I didn't make any friends in undergrad, because I would go to class and leave and, you know, I had teachers, you know, call me derogatory names too. And I feel like things are better today because there is a community online, like people can connect with other people. And back when I was going to school, there really wasn't like online communities that I can turn to and connect with people, um, also part of part of that was um, like my now husband, like I I've known him since we were, like 1314, years old, and we were friends for a long time, and I feel like part of our relationship has been supporting one another through these things that you know, his parents, too were factory workers like his father. His father crawled through the sewer system from Mexico to get to the US. And like, he was deported, like, I think, five times, and he just persistently kept coming because he wanted to reunite with his his wife, who was he had come here first, and so between his experience with his family and my parents coming here to live on the mainland for Puerto Rico, and living in factories and or, sorry, working in factories, I guess I had no choice. It was either work hard or, I mean, sync, like, there was, there was not they had no choice. It was it there was no choice. And it's, it hasn't been easy. I mean, I even, like with actual writing, I think sometimes people don't understand what it is I'm trying to communicate, or they might look, look at it on the surface level and say, well, she's writing about a villain, so that means she probably sides with that type of individual or or experience. But a lot of what I have written recently, you know, I like with children of Chicago, is I wanted to kind of explore someone that is a villain. I wanted to explore somebody that had I felt like I had gone through so much trauma growing up that I could have chosen to be completely wicked and completely hateful, but I chose something different. I chose to love myself, and I chose to look outside and look up at the sky and realize how I'm alive. My other friends aren't so lucky. I have, you know, friends serving life for murder. One young man that I know, you know, he was playing football in college, and he came home to visit and he was killed. And so it's like, they don't have, like, what I literally. Have right now looking up at the sky, and so what can I do? And so I chose love, but with children of Chicago, I wanted to explore, what about someone that has gone through all this trauma and all this hate, and they just choose to just stay wicked and evil. What does that mean? Because we have a lot of bad people out here. I mean, I've almost gotten carjacked, like, twice. The last time almost got carjacked was last year, and my children were in the car, like, I'm standing there, my parents are in the alley, and somebody walked up to me, ready to carjack me, and, you know, my kids was in the car. So it's like, there's some really awful and wicked people out there, but I want to choose every day to be positive. And it's work. It's work to wake up and write. It's work to acknowledge that the bad things that happen to me are not me. To acknowledge that I can choose a different reality for myself, to acknowledge that my parents went through probably a really difficult upbringing. They didn't know how to show me love because of that, and so I'm going to choose a different way to show my children. So I think it's it's just constant work. I wake up every day and it's work to stay positive. It's work to work. It's work to choose something better for myself.

Michael David Wilson 26:29
Yeah, and I mean, on the matter of writing about villains and writing about the awful things that happen in this world. I mean, I know you've said before, there can be a misconception sometimes from people that almost, I guess, put the the artist and the art together. And so, you know, we need to show people that, of course, like just because we're writing about these terrible things, it does not mean we are these terrible things, or we endorse those. So, I mean, I wondered if you could speak a little bit about that.

Cynthia Pelayo 27:14
Oh, sure. I mean, it's, I think if there's anyone that can hold a mirror up to society and tell society like this is what is wrong with you. It's the artist. And it's a very vulnerable position to be in, because you're always, you're always going to be prone to criticism. You're always going to be prone to or open to it, right? You're always gonna be open to this harsh critique of what you should have said and how you should have said it. I mean, granted, I do, I do think the artist also holds responsibility for the potential of causing and creating harm. So that's that's a given, but I think that, especially as writers of dark fiction, of Horror, Mystery, crime, I think we're in a really interesting position, that we can explore characters and works you know that have you know Hannibal Lecter. I mean, every major like villain that up until you know that, I feel like the the dark fiction in the horror community is fascinated with that was created by somebody. That person, the per, you know West Craven, was not, you know Kruger from the last house on the left. You know, Wes Craven. Is not, you know, fr Kruger, you know, he created this very wicked person, entity or Nightmare on Elm Street. And then he also, in turn, you know, his first work was, you know, creating that last house on the left work, which is very gruesome, but it explored the viciousness of some people, and Is it painful? Yes, but I think at least for me, that's something that I've been very interested in exploring villains, especially the female villain, where I feel like we haven't seen a lot of the female villain in art and and, like, why is that? I feel like women can be really cruel. You know, I've some of the, some of the harshest, you know, attacks I've ever experienced are from, you know, my mother, for example, you know other women. And so I've always been very fascinated to explore the female villain, and just what does that mean? Why can't we explore it? Or why is it that every time? Or why is it very often when a female villain, villain is explored, there's very, very harsh critic. About that. And I think it's a lot about, I think it's still a lot of ingrained misogyny that we still expect women. You know, people might be upset when I say this, but you know, you know, we still really love the, you know, the figure of the final girl. This is a woman that awful things happens to happen to her, or happens to her throughout the course of the narrative or the film, and she defeats the monster, and she comes through at the end of, you know, at the end, victorious. What if we flip that? What if we make a woman that is completely in her own power, that is completely okay with being a monster and owns it and doesn't care. That's really terrifying, I think, for a lot of people to even think of and so at least with in children of Chicago, you know, the protagonist is a villain. She's a Latina, she's an officer, and that was definitely, that is definitely a very difficult story to read because of all that we're experiencing with law enforcement and the US, and it's like a constant issue that we've dealt with. But, um, that was a very hard story to write, because children should look to the adult to protect them and to trust, but I wrote a story where the person that children were supposed to trust could not be trusted, at least for me and growing up, that was very often the case where The person that was the adult, the person that was the person of in a position of authority that I should have trusted turned out to be the bad person. And so, I mean, it's not a happy ending. Not everything that I raise a happy ending, and I feel like in horror and dark fiction and crime. I mean, it's not always going to be a happy ending. There's awful people out there. You know, my poetry collection into the forest and all the way through is a collection of 109 poems of missing and murdered women that there is no happy ending there. And so what does that mean? Like, we have to stop and look at these awful things that are happening. I can't answer the questions. I can only tell you, as an artist what it is I see, and I do see, at least for my upbringing, I have seen a lot of cruelty. I haven't, to date, allowed it to break me, but I've seen a lot of it, and I think that it's scary to sit back and see the monsters out there, and we are the monsters. People are the monsters. I mean, I've never really I, at least today, I don't really gravitate to like creature feature in horror. I'm fascinated with humans as monsters, because we do some awful things to each other, and it's so sad. And

Michael David Wilson 33:01
I'm wondering, when did you first realize that you couldn't trust or rely on those very people that you're meant to be able to trust and rely on?

Cynthia Pelayo 33:14
Oh, I mean, it was like constant throughout. I mean, gosh, very young, very young in school, especially teachers telling me things about my culture, teachers making fun of the way my dad spoke English you know, people telling me that I didn't belong in this country, people telling me that I wasn't American because I'm Puerto Rican. You know, I've had, oh, gosh, I've had, I've had more than enough run ins with the police myself. You know, I've, gosh, I cut school because, or, you know, that was like, what I was a kid, so I, you know, skipped class, and, you know, was with some of my friends. And, you know, as opposed to the police just asking us, like, go back to school. What are you doing? You know, I got my my arm, like, twisted behind me, and then slammed up against, you know, the squad car that happened a few times where, you know, the police really roughed me up because I wasn't in school, or as with people that they didn't think I should be with. I mean, I've gotten pulled over by the police, like, outside of my garage, you know, and, you know, with guns drawn, and it's like, what the hell am I doing? I'm coming, I'm going home. So, yeah, I've, I've, I've seen some stuff. I've been through some stuff. College undergrad was a huge struggle. Goal, because it was constantly having to prove that I belonged in college at a time where there wasn't a lot of Hispanics in my college and, you know, and my MFA program, oh, gosh, that was a whole other experience where, you know, I it was, I was the only Latina in the program at that point, and it was constantly trying to prove myself, that tried to prove to them that I belong there. And I felt like to those people and to some of those people, it didn't matter to them, I never belonged, and I never will belong. So I think a lot of it has been coming to terms with not going to be accepted by a lot of people. And I mean, that's okay. I have to kind of get over this idea that I have to be I have to prove myself to people. I think I've, I've always been in this position where I'm trying to prove myself to people in positions of power, people in positions of authority, to say, Look, I am smart enough and I am good enough, and I am not what you think I am. And I mean, I think I'm just exhausted of it now. And it's like if I haven't proven to people by now my worth, then it's not worth proving to them.

Michael David Wilson 36:24
Yeah, and I mean, what can we do for the other people who are in a similar situation, those who feel that they're not supposed to be here, or those who feel like they don't belong? What kind of things can we do to teach them that they are supposed to be here? And, you know, how can we support them? How can we look at reversing that narrative?

Cynthia Pelayo 36:57
I think things are, gosh, I'm so, I'm so happy with the diversity that I'm seeing in art. It's just it makes me really emotional, because I was, you know, I started writing. I started writing like with journalism, like, gosh, too early. 2000 like 2000 I started writing like fiction in 2008 and I remember queering agents, you know, back then, and, you know, their responses were literally like, Hispanics don't read this is, this is what I was getting told from agents in in 2008 1008 Yes, 2008 um, It was like they were really bold with the things that they would say. And then the constant, I can't connect with your voice was like, you know, I'm a, I'm a Puerto Rican woman from the west side of Chicago. You probably don't get my voice. And, you know, especially when, you know, at that time, the premier person writing horror, Stephen King, was like, you know, a white male from like Maine, you know, we need to explore other voices. And so it was a really lonely time back then, when I was writing, trying to explore my voice and trying to explore stories. And while the internet and social media can be hell, it also could be like this really great and supportive and beautiful place, because we have a great community of diverse writers that are doing amazing things, that are finally getting published and hitting the New York Times bestseller list. We have the essay Cosby. We have Stephen Graham Jones, Sylvia, Moreno, Garcia. It's just I, I am just so happy to see this. I think there's a lot more openness and understanding that these are stories that have never been told before, and that doesn't mean that they're wrong. And I think people just need to be open that there are great stories from the LGBTQ community that have never been told that are finally being told, and I'm so excited to read those. There are great stories from the Native American community that are finally being told and supported. And so I know that you know, traditional publishing has been a piece of work. It's been, you know, a constant struggle to get recognition there. But there, there, there are movements that are being made. There's changes that are being made. And you know, we're seeing, you know, some great writers moving into being traditionally published, and then just that indie horror community as well. That's been a really great space for experimentation and for new voices to be heard and to grow and just explode, because there's just some amazing tasks. Element there. So I think a lot of it is being open to these are voices you've never heard or read before, because there were gatekeepers. And the indie community has been more, has been really receptive to them, and traditional publishing is now being very receptive to them. So I think listening to what they have to say and why they have to say it. Yeah, so I think, I think we're, I think we're, we're getting to a really good place where diversity is really being celebrated right now, and it makes me so happy and thankful. And I just wish, I wish I had that way back when it makes me a little sad that I was kind of alone. I stopped writing for a long time for a few reasons, but in part, it's because I felt like I was just talking to a wall and there was no one listening. So I left writing for a long time, and I just came back to writing in what, 2019, I think after taking, like, few years off, three, four years off,

Bob Pastorella 41:10
yeah, it's good to see that. It's like the barriers are being broken. There's still a ton of work to be done. And I think that a lot of what we see with traditional publishing, the the changes that are happening are happening because readers don't really they don't really care about where it comes from. They just want a good story and and they I think traditional publishers are finally coming around and seeing the power that the indie publishing, whether you're small press or sub published, can actually do. You know what, what good it can do, and the you know, the strengthening does the sales and the marketing that it can do, and the stories that it can tell, and how diverse it is. And I feel like that, they're, they're finally coming around, like I said. And there's a, there's a ton of work to be done. I mean, for every, for every, it's like, for every one step forward, there's, you know, it's, you know, traditional publishing will do something dumb and take a step back, you know, and so. But I think we're, if we can get, I feel like if we get the right people on place and remove the the gatekeepers, and have new gatekeepers who want to keep the gate open, then I think that things are going to be a lot better, lot of work to be done. Yeah,

Cynthia Pelayo 42:41
where there's definitely been great movement in the last few years, and it really makes me happy to see support, especially some of these newer writers, are getting and it's been, it's part of my, my, you know, goal to be a mentor too, because when I started writing, I had nobody, and so I, I tried to mentor. I mentor with the HAR Writers Association. I mentor with pitch wars, you know, I try to, you know people, you know people know that if they email me, you know, I've been, you know, pretty open to helping out new writers and giving them feedback on things. I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't know everything, I don't know all the answers. But if I can be supportive in any way and help someone, then, I mean, that's, that's great. I don't want anybody to feel this is a really tough industry. This is really brutal for a number of reasons. You know, writing is isolating. If you have a young family, I have young children, you're away from them. If you have a day job, I have a day job. You know, it you're if you have a day job, you're working two jobs, because you're working during the day, doing one thing, and then you have to switch gears at night or on the weekends and do something else. And so sometimes it feels like, you know what is? What am I doing? Like? And it's lonely and it's frustrating, and I tried to tell people, it's, it's not a race, you know, think about what it is that you need to create and tell. I mean, of course there's people, of course there's writers, that this is, this is their day job, this is their career, this is how they pay their mortgage, and they have to, you know, meet certain deadlines and certain, you know, hit certain benchmarks and milestones. But there's some of us that have some flexibility, because we have other careers. So, you know, I asked people, what is it that you want to do? What is the ultimate goal? Do you want to. Tell a good story. Do you want to make this a career? Is So, you know, let's you have to, there's a lot to think about when you want to go full time writing. I know I'm not. I love my day job. I've been working in my day job for almost 20 years. It's, it's, it's a career. You know, I have two master's degrees. My first master's is in marketing, and that's what I do by day. I'm a researcher, so I'm I don't have the pressure that I feel like I have to make this a day career, I don't know maybe that'll change like I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know how things will I always have. I'm always I'm always open to opportunity. But as of now, I really I adore what I do by day, and knowing that I have that is freeing, because I know I can create whatever I want to create. Hopefully people will read it so and I

Michael David Wilson 46:09
mean so much is you choosing to love yourself, to work your ass off, and you know, to thrive and do your best, in spite of the odds, in spite of the obstacles. And, I mean, you spoke about mentoring and supporting others, but I wonder, I mean, who's your support network? And what are you doing when you need someone to lean on.

Cynthia Pelayo 46:44
Wow. When I was younger, I had a few mentors. My main mentor passed away a long time ago, and that was like losing a father. But I am really lucky and really thankful that my husband is my best friend. I have no idea how this man has tolerated me for like we've been together like 20 years. I think it'll be 20 years married, but he just kind of listens, and sometimes I don't want someone to fix it. Sometimes I just want to cry and say, This is awful. This is the worst day of my life. And he wants to fix everything, and he gets in a panic, and he doesn't want to see me suffer, but he knows that this is a tough I mean, this is tough on him, me doing this. And, you know, I don't think people talk about that a lot. Brian Keene is a huge mentor of mine. I absolutely love Brian Keene. And Brian, gosh, you know, we were talking recently, and he said something to the fact he's like, this is really hard on the spouses. Be be kind to Gerardo, because you're just, you know, stressed out all the time, and he's seeing you stressed out, and he can't fix it. So, you know, recognize that. And it was, like, the first time where I was like, wow, I am neglecting that. This is stressful for him, because he sees me, you know, up late at night, sleeping four hours a night when I have a crazy deadline into the forest. Was not an easy project to write. It was very mentally taxing. But he, he's just become my go to to decompress and talk to. And, I mean, he's kind of like my go to for everything, other people that I've talked to quite a bit, Brian Keene, who's, I mean, I can't thank him enough for his time and his support, Gabino Iglesias. I like, that's like my brother from another mother. I absolutely love Gabino. You know, it's Gabino has seen. You know he has had, you know, every writer has had their struggles and whatnot. But you know, he sees that my struggles are a little bit different because I'm a woman, Latina, and so he recognizes that, and so he's been really supportive. So I've been thankful for those two tremendously, and there have been others that have just kind of reached out. And I, and I'm always, sometimes I feel alone here, but there have been, it's been shocking to see, like, you know, other writers will reach out to me that I'm like, why are we? Well, you don't have to reach out, but you did, and that was so kind and I guess, establish, right? Get it. They get that this is stressful and sometimes it feels thankless. And many of them have taken time out of their day to talk to me and just say, hey at the end of the day, what matters is the work. Take some time, but you have to take some time for yourself and take care of yourself too. You know, I haven't mentioned yet, but on top of all my entire wildlife, I also have two special needs children, and I'm in a PhD that I am slowly trying to finish. So I do a lot and my and it probably goes back to having to have my every single corner of my brain power occupied with something so that I don't get sad and I don't get stuck in like some negative thought loop. And maybe that doesn't work for other people, and I don't think it should work for other people. No, I don't think people should work at this pace, because it's not normal. But for me, it's been helpful to kind of always be busy and always be working, because I notice when I'm not working, I get really sad about anything really so I think I'm just prone to being sad about things, and I try not to think about the past at all. But I've said before, like, I wake up and it is work to be kind to myself. It is work to tell myself, don't read review. I don't, I don't read reviews anymore. I've stopped. I don't, haven't looked at reviews like in months and months. But it's, it's work to sit at my computer and not hear every single awful thing launched at me and are about my work criticisms or whatnot, I just have to be good to myself, and I have to just work at being focused on the fact, at least for me, and my belief that there isn't a lot of time, I don't believe there's a lot of time. I believe I have a set amount of time on this planet to do whatever I want to do. And so when I get up in the morning, I have to tell myself, what is it that you need to accomplish today? Because you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. And I've seen that. I've seen that with beautiful young people that had every possibility before them and have that taken away. And so maybe in some strange way, it's my rush and my madness to just work and do things so I could leave something behind. And it's work to do that, to be okay, to say that it's gonna be okay. I'm gonna sit down, I'm gonna get something done, I'm gonna create something and hopefully it means something to someone. Yeah?

Michael David Wilson 52:46
And, I mean, I think it's important that we should never take tomorrow for granted. We should never really take anything for granted because we don't know when there's not going to be a tomorrow.

Cynthia Pelayo 53:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see, yeah. I mean, it's sometimes I wonder, like, you know, what would my outlook on life be if I, you know, haven't gone through and seen everything I've seen and so what I work so hard would I be so I, you know, constantly be in this data. I have to hustle, I have to create, I have to work. I don't know. I don't know. This is, this, is I? This is how I work. And I don't see it stopping. But I think, you know, at least another aspect of joy has been my children made me a little more happy, like I they, they have brought, like, tremendous joy to me, and just like creativity. And I feel like I I feel like I'm a different writer today because of them. And I see like the I see like the possibility and the whimsy and the joy and like the smallest things, and I, I feel like I needed that desperately, and then they have given that to me. And I feel like they've made me they've they've given me a gift because I was, I mean, I was not in a good place for a very long time, for a long time I was not in a good place. And having them, I think it's, it's they've given me, I think the healing that I that I needed.

Michael David Wilson 54:33
Yeah, and what is it that you're doing for self care? And I mean, how often do you take non work time for you? I'm

Cynthia Pelayo 54:46
trying to be better about that. I meditate a lot. I try to, I meditate every day. I like to spend time outside. So I I do a little. Rituals were like, you know, my my getting my morning coffee. Now that things are a little, you know, I can go out with a mask, and so a coffee shop, I try to go in the mornings and get a coffee and maybe sit outside and try to just be alone with my thoughts. Journaling has been helpful for me. You know, it's, it's a gift in the curse I've said about social media, because it's because, because of social media, I've been able to grow a platform, and I've been able to meet people and have an audience. But it's also, there's also, like, a level, level of anxiety and stress that comes along with social media, so I try to take breaks from it when I see that, you know, I don't think, I think that it's like I said, it's been an important tool for me to grow my platform and my community, and I didn't have that before, and I'm thankful because I've been able to do that, but stepping away from social media has been helpful so and forcing myself to not always be working. And I think there's also something to even if you're not actually writing, if you're thinking about what it is you're going to write that's also part of creating. I I have a I have an office now, which I'm very excited about. So I had an office created in the back part of my house, and I spend a lot of time here, and sometimes I'll just probably most of the day I'm in here, but even just kind of like thinking about the characters or the poetry I want to write, that's I feel like, also very helpful for me, just the process of thinking. So I don't know that helps, but yeah, self care is a very important thing for me. I mean journaling, meditating, saying good things to myself. I've been, I've been very like, like, a huge advocate of telling people and other writers to say good things about yourself, like, if you look like a crazy person, so go to the bathroom or go to the quiet place, but like say a nice thing about yourself. I grew up in an environment where nice things weren't said to me. My parents didn't really tell me I love you. My parents didn't my parents called you know they weren't they. They had issues with communicating, and so I grew up in a environment where I wasn't told I was smart, I wasn't told I was creative, I wasn't told I was pretty, I wasn't told any good things. And so it's been a lot of like deprogramming myself to tell myself you're good, you're smart, you're creative. Hey, this story you're working on, it's good, like you're doing a good job. You know, something as simple as telling yourself that it kind of changes your mood, it changes your day. I think that's important, and that's one of, one of the reasons why I feel like people should be very careful with social media, because it can get, can get really negative and just draining. And if there's something that you're doing that you feel like you come away from that activity and you don't feel good after you come away from that activity, then don't do it. Or if you can sit on that like your day job, like pull away as much as you can. So it's very like, for example, social media, if you notice that you're going on there, and every time you go on there, you come off and you feel awful, and then you can't write, maybe don't go on social media, or maybe put a timer and just use it for, like, an update. Like, Hey, today, I'm going to be on this podcast for today. I'm going to be doing this because you still want to be, if you still want to be part of that, you know, discussion. So being kind to yourself, I think, is part of self care. You're you're in your head all day, every day. And as writers and creators, we want to be to As humans, we want to be told that we're good. We want to be told that we're we're of value. And so it's very important that you, yourself think that you're valuable, you're important, and sometimes you know telling yourself that in the morning will change your day. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 59:49
and I think with regards to social media, I mean, sometimes you hear people talking about these are the roles. These are the things. To do to grow your platform. These are the things not to do. But the truth is, we don't have to do anything we don't want to do. We don't have to engage with anyone we don't want to engage with. And because somebody you know tweets you or whatever, you don't have to reply to anything we don't have to do anything we don't want. And you know, the sooner we realize that, the more liberating it can be. You know, we create we decide how we use our own platform, because it's our platform. It's like our kind of space, and we wouldn't allow a person to just waltz into our living room and demand something converse, and so we shouldn't do that on social media, either, exactly

Cynthia Pelayo 1:00:49
like your your time, your creativity is so valuable. You don't owe anyone your time. You don't owe anyone any aspect of your energy. I mean, it's you just don't in there's no rules in terms of, like, who you have to respond to what you have to do. I mean, we're all kind of figuring this out. Do what feels good to you and do what is positive for you and for your you know your work and for just like your you know your mental health. I feel like social media can be so draining. And again, like you said, You don't owe anyone, any of your time. You don't want anyone any of your energy. You don't have to respond to anybody. You don't have to engage with anybody that does not that you don't want to

Bob Pastorella 1:01:43
that's very true.

Michael David Wilson 1:01:45
I mean, you spoke about your upbringing and your parents issues with communication. I'm wondering how has this impacted your own parenting?

Cynthia Pelayo 1:01:58
Oh, wow. I remember after I had my first son, the one of the rules at the hospital when I had my first son was my mother is not allowed anywhere near the delivery room. I did not want that woman anywhere near me while I was in labor, I remember looking at my son and telling him I am not going to be anything like my mother was. I constantly tell this child, I love you. You're a hard worker, you're important. I mean, I have him repeat these things at night like that's part of our bedtime routine. When I get him into bed, you know, we go through and I have him say, you know, I worked hard today. I am creative. I am loved. That's so important. It was, it was a really sad upbringing for me. And, you know, I think again, it's my parents had a very difficult upbringing. They were raised in rural Puerto Rico in the 1940s my father left home when he was 16. My mother had all sorts of issues at her house, where she was not allowed to leave until she was like 21 or something, and even then, when she left her house, she had to live with her brother, she was on, you know, it's very strict upbringing for my mother, and sometimes I feel sorry for her, because I don't I think that she was made to be that way. And I know, I know they love me in their way, and we've had many issues that we're still working through. My parents are in their 70s, and I, I, I just want to make sure that my children know that I love them. My children know that they're important to me. I want my children to know that I think great things about them, and I'm never going to raise my voice to them. I'm never going to make them scared. You know, I was tough. My upbringing was very tough with my parents, and sometimes I wish it. I wish it wasn't, and it's part of recognizing what my past was like and knowing that I was able to be okay after growing up in a place where I feel like I probably should have been loved better. But, um, I am changing that with my children.

Michael David Wilson 1:04:47
Thank you so much for listening to part one of the conversation with Cynthia paleo. Join us again next time for the second and final part. But if you want to get that ahead of the crowd, if you want to get every. Episode ahead of the crowd, become our patron. Patreon.com, forward slash, this is horror. As a patron, you can submit questions to each and every guest, including the likes of Alex e Harrow and Richard goddrey, and of course, you'll also be getting patrons only episodes such as story unboxed, the horror podcast on the craft of writing and the patrons only Q and A sessions. So head over to patreon.com, forward slash, this is horror and see if it's a good fit for you. All right, before we wrap up a little bit of an advert break, winner

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Michael David Wilson 1:07:09
all right, well, we normally have a quote or some final thoughts at this point, but actually, we have timed this episode with Cynthia paleo's birthday. So happy birthday to Cynthia, and we want you to all wish her a happy birthday as well. And best way to do that, or the way that I'm going to encourage you to do that, is to head over to Twitter like I don't know if she's going to appreciate this, Bob, because I'm going to suggest that people tag Cynthia at Cena palleo and wish her a happy birthday in September the ninth. That is her birthday. If it's September the 10th, you know, say Happy belated birthday. If you're listening to this in November, November 12, maybe say, Oh, just wanted to wish you a happy birthday for September the ninth. I know it's a couple of months late, so because whenever you hear this episode, wish you a happy birthday. If you hear it in September 2022, and it's not the ninth, yet you could wish her an early birthday. So you know, make her feel loved, make her feel appreciated. Head over to her Twitter at Cena palleo and wish her a happy birthday. Well, you reckon Bob, is she going to appreciate that. I think, fucking now, Michael, you just flooded my Twitter messages saying happy birthday.

Bob Pastorella 1:08:49
I think, I think she will appreciate it. I really do so and definitely, you know, I like it when people remember my birthday, and it's in, you know, and as as we get older, like me, I'm just, I feel like I'm lucky to have another birthday. But it's, it's a good feeling. I'm like that it's, and I always try to make a point to tell people happy birthday. So yeah, let's we're definitely gonna wish her a happy birthday.

Michael David Wilson 1:09:23
Okay, so September the ninth, Cena palleo, happy birthday. But next year, June 18, want you all to head on over to Apple pastorella, because you gotta wish him a happy birthday as well. Now, apparently the birthday segment of this is horror.

Bob Pastorella 1:09:46
Yeah, I'm gonna wish me a happy birthday too.

Michael David Wilson 1:09:48
There you go. We'll see you in the next episode. This is horror for part two of Cynthia paleo. But until then, take care of yourselves. Do. Be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have a great, great day.