TIH 474: Brian Asman on Man, Fuck This House, Blackstone Audio, and Pranks

Michael David Wilson 0:07

Welcome to This Is Horror Podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode alongside my co host, Bob Pastorella. We chat with masters of horror, about writing, life lessons, creativity, and much more. Now, today's guest is Brian Asman, who is the author of books such as Man, fuck this house and Return of the Living elves. And this is the second time that we've had Brian on the show. It is always so much fun to talk to him. This was no exception. He brings so much energy to each conversation. And not only are you going to be entertained, but you're really going to learn something because Brian talks about the marketing for manufacturers house he talks about his deal with Blackstone audio and different considerations that you might want to bear in mind when looking for a publisher. So before any of that, a little bit of an advert break.

RJ Bayley 1:39

It was as if the video had unzipped my skin, slunk inside my tapered flesh and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella 1:48

From the creator of This Is Horror comes a new nightmare for the digital age. The Girl in the Video by Michael David Wilson, after a teacher receives a weirdly rousing video is like to send to the paranoia and obsession. More videos follow each containing information no stranger could possibly know. But who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and everyone he loves. The Girl in the Video is the ring meets fatal attraction from iPhone generation. Available now in paperback ebook and audio. From the host of This Is Horror Podcast comes a dark thriller of obsession, paranoia and voyeurism. After relocating to a small coastal town, Brian discovers a hole that gazes into his neighbor's bedroom. Every night she dances and he peeps, same song Same time, same wild and mesmerizing dance. But soon Brian suspects he's not the only one watching. She's not the only one being watched. They're Watching is The Wicker Man meets Body Double with a splash of Suspiria They're Watching by Michael David Wilson and Bob Pastorella is available from this is horror.co.uk Amazon and wherever good books are sold.

Michael David Wilson 2:58

Okay with that said, here it is it is Brian Asman. On this is hora. Brian, welcome back to This Is Horror.

Brian Asman 3:12

Hey, Michael, Bob, it's great to be there. I kind of said that, like YouTuber one entity, which maybe at this point in time during the podcast you are. So Bob. Michael, thanks for having me

Michael David Wilson 3:25

is an absolute pleasure. And well, people haven't seen us in the same room. So there are rumors that we are one in the same entity. But you know, I can neither confirm nor deny that though. Perhaps Bob will quickly deny that.

Bob Pastorella 3:43

No, I'm going to confirm and deny it. Okay,

Michael David Wilson 3:46

thank you guys. So

Unknown Speaker 3:48

I've long suspected this is like a Phil Hendry thing. Like it's one guy doing both your voices?

Michael David Wilson 3:54

Yeah, I mean, I, I've really gone to some effort. In fact, I do have two MacBooks in front of me and two different microphones just to give that different quality. I've gotten a VPN saying I'm in Texas, or is it a VPN saying I'm in Japan? I mean, you'll never know.

Unknown Speaker 4:16

It's impossible to tell, right? Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, you're like You're like an international criminal mastermind. But all you do is podcast.

Michael David Wilson 4:24

Yeah. It doesn't really have the same notoriety or indeed financial gain, or in fact, prison consequences. But yeah. It's me that people typically say about me.

Unknown Speaker 4:44

I will say the one thing that like I think is really in the favor of you being a real person. You totally do have a Japanese accent. It's like spot on. So yeah.

Bob Pastorella 4:54

is as good as it is his imitation of me. As good as

Michael David Wilson 4:59

y'all remember. Taishan of Michael Caine. But enough of all that. It's been three and a half years since we had you on the podcast. I cannot believe it has been that long. But I have to believe it cuz I looked it up before that is reality. So I wonder what have been some of the biggest changes for you in that time, both personally and professionally.

Unknown Speaker 5:27

Wow, wait, you're telling me that you looked up a fact and then chose to believe it when you found new information that's mind blowing. I think more people should probably do that.

Michael David Wilson 5:38

The new way of thinking or perhaps an old way of thinking,

Unknown Speaker 5:42

what a wild innovation. Yeah, so things have really changed for me since the last time I was on your podcast. And I'd like to think that my first appearance on This Is Horror really helped me launch into where I'm at right now. But yeah, so since we last talks, I've put out three additional novellas, jailbroke, muntjac city, and of course, the one everyone's heard of now, man, fuck this house. And I have another novella coming out in November Return of the Libyan elves. It's a Christmas horror comedy. But yeah, things have been pretty crazy. In addition to putting out a couple novellas, I resold the rights to Man, fuck this house, and another novel called Good dogs, which is a werewolf book to Blackstone publishing. And so they're going to be reissuing man fuck this house with you know, additional short stories kind of like what happened with Eric maracas book. So that's really exciting. And also, I sold the option for Man, fuck this house that Film TV rates. So that's in development right now. I can't say where but it's in development. And that's super exciting as well. So Oh, and I completed my MFA since the last time that we talked. So there's a lot going on in my world.

Michael David Wilson 7:04

And for the MFA, we're still ongoing the last time we spoke. That is how long it's been.

Unknown Speaker 7:10

Yeah, I was like a year into the program at that point.

Michael David Wilson 7:14

All right. Well, congratulations on completing the MFA. I don't know why I've taken that as a takeaway. You just listed all these things, film rights, and, you know, the success of manufacturer sounds, but apparently, you know, congratulating you on The MFE decided to lead with,

Unknown Speaker 7:32

hey, no, I will take whatever congratulations you would like to bestow and not be offended at me that you don't so it's all good.

Michael David Wilson 7:41

Yeah, yeah. Well, I need I don't I mean, surely implied, which is really helpful to imply through silence things in an audio medium. I've been told that that is the key to success right there.

Unknown Speaker 7:55

Absolutely, absolutely. But I mean, you have you have a very smart audience, probably the smartest audience in all of podcasting. Also the sexiest audience in all podcasting. So I think they'll get it.

Michael David Wilson 8:08

Yeah, this is not your first rodeo. You know what you're doing on the podcast? Second, you have to keep people listening. And I

Unknown Speaker 8:16

mentioned that I mentioned the sexiest audience in all the podcasting. Sexy audiences. That's how you I do have a new book coming out. It's coming November 29.

Unknown Speaker 8:33

I probably won't do that bit the entire time. Yeah. Like six or seven more times. Yeah, you can

Michael David Wilson 8:41

just break it's like, yeah, we're not even in the in the adverts. You can verbally do that. And now we just break from our regular programming to remind you that return to the living games will be coming out later this month. Okay, back to the interview.

Unknown Speaker 8:59

This is gonna be like the first episode of This Is Horror. That's only like 40 minutes, because you'll eventually have to, like, you've got to go back and like edit out all like the self promotion that I'm dropping into every single sentence and every answer that requested. It's just too much.

Michael David Wilson 9:14

Yeah, yeah. That is a good point reminder Return of the Living elves.

Bob Pastorella 9:20

He's taking the total Tony Macmillan style and just leveled it up to you know, 11 right there. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 9:29

Yeah. Well, I mean, let's talk a little bit about Man, fuck this house. And I mean, did you come up with the title before you came up with the story? And I feel with such a great title that had the potential to go viral. And indeed, did. That can't be a coincidence. I feel you knew what you were doing there with that title.

Unknown Speaker 9:57

Yeah, so new and hoped but didn't know for sure. Yeah. So to your question, I did come up with the title first, it was actually like a tweet a couple years ago. Right? I just tweeted, you know, I think this would be a really funny name for a haunted house book. And then a couple of people were like, hey, like, like, for people, like we're like, that's a really funny idea. And that's all it takes is for people telling me, something's funny for me to just dedicate my life to it. So yeah, after four people told me the idea was funny. I started working on the book from there. And it's I told that story a couple of times before, but it's kind of weird, and that my initial concept for the book was completely different. So it was like going to be like a really fratty ghost comedy, kind of like, Van Wilder with ghosts or something like that, where like, you know, people woke up, like, wake up with like Dix drawn on their faces. And there was no one in the room to dry brick on your face, who, like shit like that it was gonna be stupid. And then my friend on Christian had a tweet where she was like, like this tweet, and I will say something out of pocket about you. And so of course, I'm like, Yeah, I'm game I'll play. And she said, I feel like you write exclusively for bros. And that makes me feel left out. And I was like, Holy shit, you're right, I was about to write like a fucking frat boy comedy. And so I just kind of like, let that sink in a little bit. I was like, you know, I need to push myself in a different direction with this book, and do something like I haven't done before. So I decided to focus in write about like a family like a traditional nucular family, which is something I really hadn't done before. And it was it was interesting getting into that. And a lot of my own feelings about like, my family, and growing up kind of came out while doing stuff I didn't really expect. And that was really fun and interesting.

Michael David Wilson 12:00

Yeah, so actually, we have overcome Christian and in a sense to thank for the way that this turned out. And I do like as well, you know, almost that juxtaposition between the title and the actual content of the book. And I think, yeah, if you'd have gone for this frat boy, Dick yolk book, then I think there would be more synchronicity between the title and the content. But I actually think the juxtaposition works to the benefit of the story.

Unknown Speaker 12:33

Yeah, thank you. When I started writing it, that's when I was figuring out what the book was going to be. That juxtaposition was one of the things that first became really apparent to me where I like so one of the influences for the book was weirdly, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. So let me explain what I mean by that in. So I'm sure Bob, especially being from Texas, you've heard this ad nauseam. But there's so many people that like will bring up like an example of a really gory movie and say, Texas Chainsaw the original right. But there's hardly any gore. There's only I believe, I believe one scene of blood in the entire movie, and that's the hitchhiker cutting himself in the van. There's, it's all implied, right? And so my, my influence here was going like, I'm going to put the word fuck in the title of my book, and then I'm not going to use another swear in the entire book, other than when someone says the title late in the third act. So in fact, there's not even like a how, like I have a character say he double hockey sticks, but like, I don't even say like, minor squares like hell or Damn.

Michael David Wilson 13:39

Yeah, and I love it as well creatively when we give ourselves these limitations. Yeah, just to see kind of, oh, well, how that will test us and stretch. Yes. And I do think that when we give ourselves a role or a limitation or say we can't do something good actually pushes us to be creatively more interesting and Tibet around writing

Unknown Speaker 14:05

apps. I absolutely agree. You know, and it was also kind of a kind of a reaction to my previous novella, nunchuck city where, which has I'm not joking. Over 200 instances of the word fuck alone in that book, and it's only 40,000 words. Yeah, so I just wonder like, go go in a different direction. Try something different. And like, I love how I personally love how it came out.

Michael David Wilson 14:32

Yeah, yeah, me too. And you? Yeah, that's another compliment.

Unknown Speaker 14:42

Bob, I feel like you've been a little stingy with the compliment. So in this next segment, we're just gonna have Bob compliment me for 10 minutes.

Michael David Wilson 14:49

Okay, here we go. Folks, that happens every episode Go,

Bob Pastorella 14:53

go.

Unknown Speaker 14:55

Shower goblins.

Bob Pastorella 14:58

The best books that you've ever written. Thank you, I did not realize that you did not curse in the book. So kudos to that. Oh, the first word that that really destroyed me when it came out. It was it was so damaging. Anyway, I'm being facetious. It was great. I really, really liked it. You know, it's, it's different. Your other stuff, there was a lot of heart in that book. Thank you, there was a lot of heart in there. And I liked that. And I think that's, you know, when you combine, you know, the scares with, you know, the cares and caring about your characters, that you're gonna have a lot of heart and you did it. And, you know, I talked with a couple of times, you know, I laughed out loud a couple of times. And, and then this is the scary parts are really disturbing. You know, some of the imagery in there, I'm not really trying to spoil anything. But, you know, it's this. It reminded me of somebody mixing hunting of Hill House with the Pope with poltergeists in burnt offerings. And I thought that was just like, really, really cool. And I love the way how you had like this extra little Kota, right after the acknowledgments that was actually pretty tight. So

Unknown Speaker 16:19

thanks, Bob, those were some great compliments, 10, out of 10.

Bob Pastorella 16:23

Awesome, very much appreciated.

Unknown Speaker 16:27

But then, in all seriousness, though, thank you so much, because you really hit on a couple of the things I was really trying to do with the book. You know, I always say it's, the weird thing about being a writer is the kind of writer that people think you are, is based entirely on what you published, and not what you've written. You know, and so the couple of things I've had come out before, this were more definitely more in the horror, comedy vein. And there's comedy in this too, for sure. But a lot of this, like a lot of the long form stuff I've written is stuff that has quite a bit of heart, it can also be very bleak. And this was an interesting book for me to write in that it was really pushing things in a different direction for me, then what's not necessarily what I've written before, but what's been published before. And going forward, I'm really trying to show people, different sides of me as a writer, with different things that I do not everything will be for everyone. And that's okay. But, you know, I'm trying not, not to repeat myself too much.

Bob Pastorella 17:33

Yeah, I think that's a really smart move. Because we come up with so many different stories, and we, you know, we sometimes that one approach to a story isn't going to work, it's just you can try to, I have this idea as rather bleak, but I'm gonna throw some humor in there because I've done that before. And the next thing you know, you've got some, you know, a pile of nothing, that's not working it out at all. And so this is when you have to kind of play upon Hey, you know, what, they expect me to be funny, they expect me to do this. And maybe I can do that in certain ways. But I can also show that I'm versatile, and I can gain additional additional readers that way. And so I think that being versatile and being able to you know, maneuver your maneuver your way around a narrative and around a genre in being able to slide that dial that tone of you know being you know, something that's totally dreadful but something that's been very funny. I think that that's you know, important to every router you just have to find find the place to do it at you know Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 18:44

yeah, I completely agree.

Michael David Wilson 18:46

Yeah, and I think here as well the comedy is more understated and perhaps because of that in Return of the Living elves, which we will get to a little bit later it is so in your face it's like right I am not any more but I mean, I like the way that I mean, I mean it's very silly and almost as a moraine gi s kind of way to it that even in man fuck this house when you're talking about the Halloween costumes that they're wearing you you reveal Oh, it's Damien, who always dresses up as a Nancy every year. So you flip those expectations right there. But yeah, I mean that there's, there's loads of that throughout. So it's certainly for those who haven't read it, and they enjoy the Brian Asman humor it is that it's just a little bit more understated.

Unknown Speaker 19:48

Yeah, that was what I did for this book. It just felt tone wise to do things that were a little more understated but at the same time, like I my tongue is always a little bit in my cheek when I Right. And so some of that stuff is gonna pop out there gonna be like, because honestly, that's my philosophy in life, you know, shit can be really dark at times, but the humor is always kind of there bubbling up at weird moments. And, you know, I've had moments where I've suffered, you know, losses in my personal life, and then reflexively made jokes about them, you know, just to deal with it, you know. And so I think those things blend well together. And sometimes, like in my books, there might be dark moments. And then there's also a little bit of humor in there, too. It might come out at weird times. But that's because in life, the humor can come out at very weird times. It's not something you can necessarily control.

Michael David Wilson 20:45

Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean there. And I've mentioned it a few times on the podcast before but I mean, right now, I'm going through the worst experience of my life past a Libra a way that I deal with it a lot is to make jokes and is to lean into humor, because I mean, it's cliched, but I really do think there is some truth that if you don't laugh, then you cry, and well, what can I say? I prefer laughing over crying.

Unknown Speaker 21:16

Yeah, I absolutely. I feel the same way. You know, I think a lot of my humor is actually rooted in the fact that like, throughout essentially all of my life, I've suffered from depression off and on. And so that's a way of both dealing with it. And honestly, like, making myself feel better. Yes. So, you know, I had a collection come out earlier this year called Neo Arcana, that's exclusive to my website. And I have like a very personal essay on in there about my experiences with depression. And my my love for Thomas legati his work and how that's really helped me and moved me and changed me. And so that's the thing that you can we can get into separately, but anyway, I totally know what you're getting though.

Michael David Wilson 22:03

Yeah. Yeah. And of course, as per all of your work, there are a lot of easter eggs and horror references within, Man, fuck this house. I mean, of course, on the nose would be just the names Damien and Sabrina. But I'm wondering when you're coming up with references, particularly the more subtle ones, are those things that are happening in the moment? Or do you have like the Brian Asma notebook of references that I will one day put into books? I mean, how does that work?

Unknown Speaker 22:44

Yeah, so essentially, every book that I do, I have a couple of reference texts that I start with before I start writing the book. And so those could be movies, those could be other books, it could be nonfiction, it could be whatever. But there are a couple of things that I will consume, put into a blender, and then I'll go write the book I'm intending to write, you know, these are things that have thematic connections have connections setting, whatever, right. So with this particular book, you know, I was really engaged with things like The Haunting of Hill House, Poltergeist, you know, kind of like the standard haunted house ghost story type stuff. So because I have those references in mind ahead of time. When I when when it comes to naming characters, naming streets, things like that, I will often have just a tab with IMDb up as I'm writing. And so whenever I need to name something, I'll go look up like okay, like, who was like the screenwriter on this particular particular movie, for example, like, I'm not gonna go with like, you know, Steven Spielberg or something like who did not direct poltergeist but was a producer. But you know, there is a reference, strong reference to Toby Hooper, and there's references to other actors from the movie. So I find that's a great way to just name characters is like find like a couple of like films that are kind of in the same vein, and then use IMDb and still actors names.

Michael David Wilson 24:14

Yeah, yeah. That's a great way of doing it. And I mean, one of my short stories, I decided to only have characters named after people tangentially involved in Resident Evil and Silent Hill, but apparently I think it's so obscure that no one has ever kind of picked me up on it or mentioned it, but I mean, I know even if other people don't, and if certainly amused myself, which I think goes back to what you were saying before as well where sometimes I mean, particularly with comedy or humor, writing you first got to amuse yourself.

Unknown Speaker 24:56

Yeah, that's primarily the It's not right in the first place. If it wasn't, I don't think I'd be able to. Yeah, it's, I like I write because I genuinely enjoy it. And other people like it too, then great, but like, that's, you know, you know if the if I was the Mega Man, you know, like the old Charlton Heston Twilight's Twilight Zone episode, if I was the Omega Man, and the entire world disappeared, I would still write because I legitimately find it that much fun. So like, that's just how it is.

Michael David Wilson 25:31

Yeah, and actually, that reminds me a little bit of something I was listening to recently with the neuroscientist Andrew Huberman. And he was talking about, you know, people who find the work and the process, be it creative, or what have you difficult because they are obsessing and they are looking at the end result, rather than the process itself. But if you can find joy, within the process, if the process can become the reason for doing something, then you just unlock things. You know, I think probably there's people who deal with writer's block or imposter. Imposter syndrome is because they're jumping too far ahead. They're looking, you know, they want to have that completed story, that is where they find the joy, that is where they find the satisfaction, but if you can find the satisfaction within the writing process, then then you've won your wedding just through writing.

Unknown Speaker 26:44

Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think there's definitely a lot to be said, for really, whatever, whatever you're trying to do, learning and honoring that process. But the you know, the thing that you said about jumping ahead, really resonates with me, because, you know, a long time ago, before I seriously got into writing I like I wrote, I've written all my life, essentially. But I would go through periods of not really writing. And a lot of that was quote unquote, writer's block. I remember starting stories, like a long time ago, and you know, I'd start a story and write for a bit, and then kind of lose steam and like, I wouldn't be able to figure out what, what what should happen next, essentially. And so I abandon the story. And so I think when you say that writer's block is, like, kind of getting ahead of yourself with the final product, I think that's completely correct. Because, like, one of the things that really helped me write both regularly and complete things, was when I decided it didn't really matter what happened next, only that something happened. And so I think if you give your give yourself permission to do that, like, it's like the fucking the Michael Scott thing. When he is doing improv, it's like, oh, seven, two guys with guns, like, whatever. You know, I think if you train yourself to go, Okay, there's a whole whole lot of different things that could happen next. And it doesn't matter what happens next, because because you're still working on the story. And if you write the thing that happens next, then it's not the right thing. You could just go back and write something different. You're in complete control. Yeah. And like, you can, like Teach yourself that you can like, I'm doing finger quotes right now, which is great for a podcast, but you can fucking fail in the moment. That's okay. You can write things that don't work out. Like when we did the the story a week challenge with This Is Horror. Back in 2017. You guys remember that? I wrote lots of stories that didn't work out. But guess what, every single one may be a slightly better writer. Yeah. And they taught me It taught me to how to complete things, how to have discipline, things like that, you know, and that, that's the kind of thing that really helps.

Michael David Wilson 29:03

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, sometimes, if I do jump ahead of myself, and I mean, this will happen. We are human is inevitable. And rather than having crippling doubt, or abandoning projects, I try and think, what is the solution here? And so this is a highly specific example I'm gonna give but as you know, I am querying literary agents at the moment. And when I did that process, yeah, I know that they will obviously ask, what else are you working on? And the only thing I was working on when I started out, was a novel called daddy's boy, is greasy strangler inspired about an estranged relationship. I know But we have an incredible amount of dick jokes. I'm not sure some of these literary agents are gonna be entirely comfortable with this. If they're like, what else are you working on? And that is the only thing I can say. So then my solution to that was like, Okay, well, I'm still working on daddy's boy. The title which I love. Are you allowed to say that about your own work? I don't know. I just

Unknown Speaker 30:33

can say yeah, this is this is a safe space for loving around work, Michael. Yes, you

Michael David Wilson 30:39

did establish that about 20 minutes.

Unknown Speaker 30:42

Yeah, like you can, like you can compliment yourself, Bob, you can compliment yourself as much as you want here. Because, honestly, I feel like we're trained not to compliment ourselves. And because it can come across as douchey or whatever. But like, like, don't do it all the time. But like, my god, I think there's nothing wrong with being like, yeah, I feel like that's a great title. I feel like I wrote a really good paragraph right there. I feel like that particular character created is kind of awesome. Like, it's love ourselves.

Michael David Wilson 31:11

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, the solution was, well, I'm still writing daddy's boy. Of course I am. I mean, what I lost. If I wasn't I, I decided I will also plan another to command more. I say too much your look, they start off as very commercial ideas. But then I remember Oh, no, you're the one writing it. So there are inevitable dick jokes and weird kinds of into but actually, I think that create something creatively unique if you almost take a cliche, or you take something commercial, but then you don't compromise your own values and aesthetic, and who you are. And in fact, I would say that I've somehow segwayed it all the way back to Man, fuck this house, because that is what you've done. You've taken the haunted house kind of archetype, but then you've made it uniquely Brian Asman. And that's how you sell books, ladies and gentlemen, that's how you do.

Unknown Speaker 32:22

Yeah. And I will say right now, I didn't compromise anything. I wrote exactly the book I wanted to write. And like, I'm super appreciative that's taken off. But, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't compromise anything. And so now, like I mentioned earlier, it's been optioned for film and TV. And it will likely be quite different. Whatever, if it gets, if it gets developed, it will likely be quite different than the book. And that's okay. Because I got to write the book I wanted to write and that's amazing.

Michael David Wilson 32:57

Yeah. Nah, no, I hate you there. And I mean, with film adaptations, there are a number of offers that are incredibly precious about, you know, what happens with their film adaptations. Whereas, I mean, I'm kind of the elfia, I'm kind of the opposite. It's like, Look, I've already written the book, the book is there. So if you want to pay me like reasonable money to adapt it and to riff on it, because that's what I see it's riffing on it. It's a cover version is taking that material and then just doing what you want with it. You can do whatever you want. It is a unique, and a separate piece of art from my book.

Unknown Speaker 33:46

Yep, exactly. Yeah, that that's a great way to put it like, and that's what I've started thinking myself. Like when it comes to adoptions of things. This is a separate piece of art. And I don't even really, I try not to, like, compare things to the books anymore. And just because I just, it's a whole different thing. So let's treat it as that.

Michael David Wilson 34:08

Yeah. But

Bob Pastorella 34:11

we're going through that right now writing, you know, working on a screenplay. We're doing a cover version of something we wrote. And it's a lot of fun. You know? Yeah, it's,

Unknown Speaker 34:24

I've adapted my own work before too. And it's kind of interesting and to go back and like, getting, like a second chance to get the things right that maybe you feel like you didn't get right. You know, it's or to re envision things like it's a lot of fun. Yeah, I was gonna say what we were just talking about second ago that with like, commercial affection and like what's commercial? I think, you know, I there are certain things that are commercial like for sure. Like if I were to write about, like, you know, a lawyer who has an alcohol problem and he has tough clients or something like that, sure. That's fucking commercial. Whatever. But like, what, what is it? What is commercial affection is actually a very broad category when you go back and look at all the things that have been hits over, say, the past 20 years or something like that, right? Like when you go to like an airport, and like, that's my reference for, like, what super commercial is when you browse around like an airport bookstore. Let's not forget that Jeff Lindsay had a whole series of novels from the point of view of a fucking serial killer. And those were literally in the airport that you could go, you could buy on your way to like fucking Thailand or whatever, you know, along with whatever, like, you know, the other 85 novels that they had at the airport bookstore. So I feel like almost anything can be commercial, if it's done well enough, interestingly enough, from the right perspective, etc.

Michael David Wilson 35:51

Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 35:54

I think it's I think commercial was broader than we think it is.

Bob Pastorella 35:58

Yeah. And change. Yeah. I mean, think about it. 30 years ago, if you would have had somebody give you the pitch for Breaking Bad 30 years ago. Yeah, that is, you're fucking crazy. We're not going to make that. No one's gonna watch that. Yeah. So it's, it's part funny, and it's part sad, and it's part dramatic, and it's part harrowing. Nobody's gonna care. So, you know, people times change our mindsets change. Who knows what's going to be commercial, something that we would have never thought was commercial. Now, in a couple of years from now, you'd have been like, well, I didn't think they'd have a, you know, a book about this. But there it is.

Unknown Speaker 36:43

Exactly. I mean, a great example is 50 Shades of Grey, which I know people rag on for all kinds of reasons. But like, this is a series that started out as Twilight fanfiction. It's like about bondage. And I know, like, if you're in the BDSM community, you probably have very complicated opinions about this work. I'm not trying to get into a debate about that. But like, you know, it's about like, you know, sexual kink. And it was a massive, massive, mainstream hit.

Bob Pastorella 37:10

Exactly. That's our, I guess, our mindset, they reset, they change. It's just, to me, I find it fascinating. You know, I've been on this rock for 55 years, and it's just, it's like, every day, somebody has a great pitch, you know, like, hey, daddy's boy, you know, greasy strangler meets dick jokes and I'm all excited to read it. You know, because here's the thing you couldn't accomp that you know, well, I mean, before Gracie stringer came out you could have done a debate what but I mean now that is somebody somebody's going to latch on to that that's going to be their their it's gonna be their groove right there.

Unknown Speaker 37:53

I know it's my groove the second day you said the greasy strangler I was like all in real quick though I feel like that film did something really important to like it's it's it's gross and vile and yada yada but like it paints such like a compelling portrait of a lot of a of a father son relationship that like I've never seen in film before. And it's it has such high emotional intelligence for a gross I'll film it's insane. Like it's a thing that should not exist, and yet it does. And I love it.

Michael David Wilson 38:24

Yeah, well, I mean, the majority of Toby Halfords writing is about like fractured and damage, like pair rental and child relationships. I mean, it's even more apparent in Come to daddy, which I also think is a brilliant film. I mean, it's good. Yeah, in a sense, it's like okay, well, this is this is if the greasy Strangler was a bit too much and you want some of those thematic concerns in a more palatable format. And you fucking love references to the British politician Michael Heseltine. If that is what you're into, then come to daddy is the film for you?

Unknown Speaker 39:08

That was such a great film, by the way. Like, I just loved the way Elijah Wood plays that character is the most insufferable person. Like, like, like, I count amongst my enemy. My allies like Kendrick Lamar and like Chance the Rapper. His first line and like the most douchey, like self important way possible.

Michael David Wilson 39:34

Like I think about that film a lot, like maybe more than most people maybe dangerous degrees. Like I often do think about the Elton John Reginald skit, that is one of my favorite bits of the entire film. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 39:52

I mean, well, it's an it's an excellent film and it's very affecting, and have something to say about Father Son relationships. And you know, it's

Bob Pastorella 40:02

it's mildly mispronouncing excrement so bad that I had to stop because I first of all, I was like, you know, because I didn't pay attention to the credits and don't even think they haven't listed in the credits. And so I watched this movie going in cold. And here comes this login guy stopped the movie. I'm like, Who the fuck is that? And I'm like, oh shit, the guy from kill list. It's Mike and Michael Smiley. And then turn it down. He goes extra minute. Just like the fuck is this guy talking about? It's just so fucking funny. That stuck with me, man.

Michael David Wilson 40:46

Yeah, yeah. I know that Toby Halford sometimes listens to the podcast, and three echos had him on a number of months ago. So I hope he's listening to this one. Enjoy the love for his movies.

Unknown Speaker 41:02

But you're a genius, sir. Thank you.

Michael David Wilson 41:06

That's the soundbite if

Unknown Speaker 41:09

they send you a fucking genius,

Michael David Wilson 41:13

there it is right there. But I mean, talking about genius and kinda genius ideas, I mean, your marketing, or I do even call it marketing your kind of promotion and reward scheme in terms of the sales for Man, fuck this house is fairly unique, right up until the point where if you hit a certain amount of sales, I don't have it in front of me, it might be a million, your place someone a haunted house. So please talk us through this sales reward scheme, what kinds of things you're giving away and how you came up with this? And then as a side note, is it financially actually gonna work out for you? If it does get up to the million sales, just a million sales? That's a lot of sales. But a haunted house could cost a fair bit of change as well?

Unknown Speaker 42:16

Yeah. So I'm happy to talk about all that like, and yeah, I'm actually really comfortable with the with the word marketing. Also very comfortable with the world, the way brands, like I don't understand why authors shy away from those things when like, you know, marketing as a way of getting your work out there. Your brand, or the parts of you that you choose to expose to the world at large. Like these, there are nothing wrong with these words, and we shouldn't shy away from them. We shouldn't be too precious about what art is, and the commercial nature of art in our world. Like, that's all fine. But yeah, regarding the haunted house contest, I am trying to be as transparent about that as possible. So on Twitter, I post periodic updates as far as like, where we are with sales and everything like that. It's still a long way off. But I also have a whole bunch of like, step goals, essentially, I've created. And so the like, right now we've sold about 17,000 copies. The next step goes at 25,000. So we're definitely within spitting distance of there. Obviously, if the if the book gets ends up getting picked up as a TV series, you know, if they, if they exercise the option, then that would probably put us over the top with the tie in version. But who knows, right? Who knows. But regarding the haunted house giveaway, so I got this idea because I was watching if you guys seen Ghost Adventures?

Michael David Wilson 43:51

I haven't. I'm familiar with it.

Unknown Speaker 43:56

Yes, Zach Baggins and all those guys. Right. So I was I was homesick one day, and I was scrolling through Amazon looking for something to watch. And I wanted something that wasn't, but did not present as intellectually challenging. I don't mean that as an insult to anyone but like, you know, I was looking for something kind of silly and fun. And I see that there's actually a Ghost Adventures movie. And I was like, Well, this is always a good time. Let me put this on. You know. And so essentially, the premise of the movie is that Zach Baggins buys this house in somewhere in Ohio, I think that supposedly haunted he buys it sight unseen, and then goes and moves in and scary shit happens. So that gave me the idea of like, Wait a second. Like I could just buy a haunted house and then give it away. So it will cost a pretty penny but like, I will likely be looking at allegedly haunted houses in places like Ohio. So Like, I probably won't give away like a haunted house on like the Malibu coast or something like that. Sorry. Right.

Michael David Wilson 45:05

Right. Well, but I mean, maybe if you hit 10 million sales? I mean, do you want to confirm that on the podcast? I'm just finding ways to spend your haunted house on the Malibu?

Unknown Speaker 45:25

Yes, if this way, this book sells 10 million copies, I will give away a nicer haunted house. Yes. Either find a commit to that like

Michael David Wilson 45:42

you had it first.

Unknown Speaker 45:44

But as far as the economic scale, like, it'll probably work out. But also I kind of don't care. Like, and I know that sounds weird, but like, you know, I, I have a, I have a day job that I do pretty well in. So like, with writing, this is more about getting the work out to people. And, you know, if, if the bind, the haunted house thing wipes out like a majority of the profits from the property? If and that's, that's fine. It was breakeven on the entire enterprise. And that many people have read my books, so I win.

Michael David Wilson 46:24

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, the hope is, as well, you know, even if at that point, you can make a loss because you're so sad haunted house, because you've now got at least a million readers, I mean, you've got more than a million readers, obviously, you know, there's going to be more people than, than by the book that have read it. But I'd be one would hope then of those million, there's gonna be a percentage that buy future books and tell their friends. And so I know, maybe what I'm saying is everyone should make it a goal that you know, to give back to the community. If you sell a million books of a single work, you should give away a haunted house marketing strategy, but don't do that. Because you're removing Brian's niche. And that's not cool. Is it?

Number of words that I say get you coffee, right? That is that some legal, legal, like no one else within the genre, or perhaps within like, a certain amount of yards from

Unknown Speaker 47:46

you know, even if I could, I don't think I would just because I don't want to be the guy suing people for like, their giveaways or something like that. But like, it's kind of funny in that, like, I've had a couple people message me and be like, Hey, I have an idea for like, you know, a kind of like a giveaway or something that's similar to what you've done to you Okay, with that? I'm like, of course, like, yeah. Like, if I couldn't inspire you to do something, then like, more power to like, you know, that's all cool.

Michael David Wilson 48:14

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, imagine if you messaged him back and he said, No, I'm not okay with me. I am in fact, the arbiter of giveaways. Okay, Shin has been declined, so.

Unknown Speaker 48:30

Yeah, I didn't like that wouldn't get me anything I would like except like, screenshotted on Twitter and like, Look at this. Douchebag like, how full of himself is this asshole? Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 48:40

yeah. Like videotape of the courtroom proceedings when you sue them. It's like, well, you honor me it was a house boat. It mean it had the word house in there, but it's on the sea.

Unknown Speaker 48:54

Oh, I should tell you took away a haunted house. That might be more difficult to find.

Bob Pastorella 49:03

Then you got some poor guy going to a haunted rush. It's a haunted rest. Stop. It's rest stop. It's not a house. Nobody lives there.

Unknown Speaker 49:11

It's 100 laser tag.

Bob Pastorella 49:13

Laser Tag. That wouldn't be a good story.

Unknown Speaker 49:17

That'd be great. Yes. Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 49:20

That'd be fucked up.

Michael David Wilson 49:21

Well, I mean in Man, fuck this house. Yeah. Damien is forever looking at totaling pranks on Submariner. So I'm wondering, I mean, what are some of the wildest pranks that you have pulled or fallen victim to and as a kind of sub question from that? Did you pull a lot of pranks on your parents or family members?

Unknown Speaker 49:45

Rule? That's a good question. Certainly that I wasn't really much of a prankster growing up as far as I can remember. But I will tell you about the best prank I ever pulled. So I was working at around restaurants. And one night we were we actually I'll give you two pranks that I pulled at this particular restaurant, you know, but as we're getting this restaurant when I Superbird and I realized this was circa like 2002 And I realized the the dishwasher was wearing these like baggy shorts with huge ass pockets in the back. And he was he was a DJ. And so like he was wearing like, kind of like these super baggy like Genco short things, you know. And so as I walked by, like I see these huge pockets in the back, and he's like washing dishes not paying attention. And so I go to the salad bar and I grabbed like a, like a fistful of like sliced mushrooms. And as I'm walking back by the dish bit, I just like chuck them in his back pocket and I told the other server what I was doing and so all night long, like every time we had to walk by the dish, but we grabbed like a handful of like chopped up vegetables from the south salad bar and like tossed them into this guy's pocket and the whole night he never noticed and he was scheduled to like DJ at the bar that night so like for all I know he like you know what and DJ the entire set with this like you know pocket full of like chopped up vegetables and then didn't realize what was going on until he like went out to his car like six hours later and like sat down and felt all the all the chocolate vegetables in his pocket. So that was that was pretty good prank the other prank I pulled there. And I like I don't have like a good kicker for either of these stories. Because like I never really saw the aftermath, but the other guy pulled there was like, one of the desserts that we had was Kimber lay, which is honestly one of my favorite desserts in the world. By the way, if you're ever at a restaurant and we're eating dinner and you'd like to curry favor with me you can buy me a cup of tea but so anyway, we had all this chrome delays and so like in the fridge, and you know, for all the listeners if you don't know a crimp really works like you know it's like this like custard and you'll sprinkle sugar on top and then use a torch to light the sugar and like you know like crystallize the sugar basically. So I took one the crumble layers and very carefully scooped it out of the bowl it was in and like cut off the top I filled the bottom of the bowl with ketchup and put the top back on and I never ever heard about anything happening and I put it back in the fridge I never heard anything happening with this particular club delay which leads me to believe that someone who works there decided to snack on a free crumble a one night unpleasant catch up quibble a surprise

Michael David Wilson 52:54

yeah yeah

Unknown Speaker 52:56

that's terrible like I would have heard about it so

Michael David Wilson 53:00

I don't know unless like they don't well kind of autism NOTICE This is an interesting take maybe there was a complaint Yeah, but maybe they loved it wow this is tangy

Bob Pastorella 53:20

flavor somebody out there who's ordered to cream for Lego no this is not fucking right this is sweet. It's not tangy it's not bread is because they had that one it was like that's the best thing I've ever had in my entire life

Unknown Speaker 53:39

if my bro prank like ruin Kimberly for someone for the rest of your life that would be amazing. I would love that

Michael David Wilson 53:46

yeah, I I hope that whoever you did this to is somehow listening to this episode it's genuinely been bothering them this happened and now like shit the headset that's what happened maybe they love the maybe they were searching for the recipe and you've just given them why Oh,

Unknown Speaker 54:13

I know I wish I knew I also wish I could go find the DJ with like the pocket full of vegetables like I only knew him by his screen name or his stage name bake so I had no idea like who he actually is. Haven't tried to find him on Facebook just because like I literally can't remember what the guy's actual name is but hopefully he's still out there and doing well because he was a he was a cool did and I like to think if he had caught me doing this he would have been a good sport about it.

Michael David Wilson 54:45

Yeah, yeah. Well I fed you know they wanted wanting the same life bake is

Unknown Speaker 54:57

like I've attained this like Arch villain status In his mind the cause of everything that's ever gone wrong in his life. It's

Michael David Wilson 55:06

yeah.

Bob Pastorella 55:08

Stocks hanging out of shorts eating fucking bowls of ketchup. We're gonna get we're gonna get

Unknown Speaker 55:15

fucked hilarious. Well, if anyone listening was in Fredericksburg, Virginia circa 2002, and those DJ big tell him to hit me up on Facebook and I'll buy him a coffee

Unknown Speaker 55:36

so super cool did so. But like it's one of those opportunistic things where I'm like, if you're gonna have pockets that bag, and I'm going to be this board, that shits gonna happen and I'm sorry, that's just kind of on. It's on both of us. But it's more on you.

Michael David Wilson 55:52

Yeah. Yeah. We're talking about pockets and trickery, or perhaps sleeves and trickery. And for people who have read the book, this will become apparent why I'm asking this. Do you know any parlor tricks?

Unknown Speaker 56:11

No, I don't I don't know a single one. Other than like, the trick for you, like tell people you're going to the bathroom? And then just fucking leave? I don't know if we can go. Don't know any tricks, unfortunately.

Michael David Wilson 56:34

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, what do you think, was the biggest challenge when writing man fuck this house? You know,

Unknown Speaker 56:50

that's actually a little bit hard to answer. Because once I figured out what the book was, was going to be, it just kind of flowed out of me, like, So honestly, I think I wrote the book in about six weeks. It was not every book for me is like that. But like some books are like some books are just I just run right through them. And that was one of them. So it came out quite easy. The first draft was further reforms. Max boot, the third edited it, the only real major change that we made a couple changes. But like, I think we cut about 50 pages from the opening, because there was like a whole extended scene where the family goes and like stays in a hotel because their stuff hasn't arrived yet. And he was Max was like, this is kind of pointless. And you should cut this. And I really appreciate that note from him as an editor. Because the scene involve like an interaction with a hotel clerk that was essentially him. And so like, I feel like Max is like the most ethical editor in the world, because he's like, cut this scene that I am in.

Michael David Wilson 58:01

Yeah. But

Unknown Speaker 58:03

yeah, other than that, like, the first draft was fairly well, like, what the book is now. And it just involves like going back and like massage and language and stuff like that. So like, this was one of the easier books I've written, frankly, like, I know, that's not like an exciting answer. But like, you know, there have been other books where it's just like, like, I'm tearing my hair out. And like, it takes me like two years to write shit like that. This one was an easy one.

Michael David Wilson 58:30

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's so many directions that I kind of want to go in now. But I suppose that is tradition for a conversation, I should choose one of them. And so we're related. When you landed your literary agent, my understanding is that one of the things that you were told was, you know, don't publish a novel. Now, let me sell that. So you should publish novellas to kind of build up your reputation. So I mean, do you think that is advice that you would give to people that are looking for a literary agent or perhaps not even for a literary agent, but looking to just break into the business and establish themselves to initially put out novellas so that they've got their first novel or something in their back pocket that they can then sell when they're more established?

Unknown Speaker 59:36

Yeah, that's a great question. And I will say like, okay, like, this is her audience, you sexy, sexy audience, you. Every time I give a piece of writing advice on this podcast, please put a mental asterisk next to it. And just that asterisk just means like, may not apply in all circumstances. You know, this is just Brian's take on shit. I I think that I think it can be a solid strategy. But like, it's not for everyone. I do genuinely think that like, it is a selling point for agents and like, you know, bigger publishers to be able to say that this is your debut novel. So I would say like, if you if you have like kind of a long game in mind, with making a career in writing, then I generally would not recommend self publishing or publishing with a small press your first novel, necessarily, just because of that factor. But there's lots of people to it, lots of people have gone to great success. So, you know, again, these are just kind of like different paths that you can take. I think self publishing novellas is a great way to get work out there. Because like, the thing is, like when you're like, quote, unquote, right, when when you're when not, quote unquote, but like, when you're breaking in as a writer, the hardest thing in the world is like getting work out there and having work available, so you can demonstrate to people who you are, and what you're all about, you know, self publishing is definitely not for everyone. But it's, I think it's a very valid path, especially these days. The thing is, if you're gonna do it, you have to do it, right. There's so many people, and I see this all the time, where they just, they, they want to be an author, they don't want to be a writer. And so they just further stuff out there, you know, every day, like some millions of books are published every year now, because of that, and they just throw their stuff out there and like, like, I get it, I get that urge. But at the same time, if you want to build a career, you have to be strategic. And if you're gonna put a product out there, like a novella, you have to put out something that is able to like, quality wise, able to stand up against stuff that at least small presses are putting out. If not bigger publishers, you know, and what that means is essentially, that you need to lay out cash, for professional editing, you need to lay out cash for professional covers and layouts, you have to put out a product that looks like it belongs on the bookstore shelf next to all the other like, traditionally published books, you know, like it's an investment. So I think some people could be served by that other people could be served by going like, you know, I'm going to make my novel The best thing that can be in good, that's rational, like try to find an agent route.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:37

Yeah, yeah. And

Unknown Speaker 1:02:39

I did both like I should say, clarify, by the way that I did the traditional and self publish route, both at the same time. I got an agent with a with a novel that I wrote, and then I also put out work myself.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:55

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it's working out incredibly well for you. And then I mean, that kind of brings us all the way to I mean, announced a couple of months ago, the deal that you've got with Blackstone publishing, which you alluded to at the top of the show, so you've sold, Man, fuck this house, and other disasters, because it's a story collection that will include the novella that we've been speaking about a lot. And you've also sold your debut novel good dogs. So I'm wondering for you, and for your agent. I mean, how did you go about deciding which publisher or which deal to take what what were the kind of discussions there? Because that's all well and good saying, Okay, well, don't don't self publish your kind of kind of debut novel. But then in terms of what is an independent press, or what is a kind of big press, sometimes the waters can get a little bit murky, they're almost publishes that I guess they're in that crossover space. And it's like, what what do you classify them as so what what was the what were the hard lines in terms of looking for that deal? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:04:26

yeah, to be honest with you, that is a question that my agent would best be able to answer. Because she Jenny Dunham, my agent did a great job of really marketing me to presses and figuring out what, what deals are going to be in our best interest. The things I love about Blackstone, are that first of all, there's the largest audio book publisher in the world. And they have that's one one area where I haven't done any audiobooks as of yet. It's audiobooks are the way that so many people now consume Media consume books. So like, it's so important to be in that space and having the preeminent audio audio book publisher in my corner was huge. And also they are branching out into, into print stuff. They've had a couple of very like, like some books with a lot of cultural capital behind them. So like they just published Norman redist, his novel The ravaged and so like, you know, if you're a fan of The Walking Dead or like Blade, the blade movies, whatever, like everyone knows who Norman Reedus is, you know, I believe they also published like a cookbook with Robert Downey Jr. So they like, they're doing stuff like, you know, it's not necessarily like Penguin Random House level, but they are doing these very interesting projects with like top tier celebrities. And with and also with just with a bunch of great writers as well. So this was the thing that's really appealing to me is this is a press on the rise. And with all the crazy weird color consolidation going on, and the Big Four are made, like, you know, there's just a lot of crazy stuff going on right there. And I'd rather be with a company that like, you know, cares about its authors in the way that I feel that Blackstone does, and that we, you know, my editor, Brendan Dineen, and I, like we did a zoom and like, immediately, just completely hit it off. Like, he's a super cool dude. He's also a horror writer. He's published horror books. He also does tie in stuff, he just wrote a Guardians of the Galaxy novel for Marvel. So we have a we have a ton in common, and it's just a great working relationship.

Michael David Wilson 1:06:45

Yeah, yeah. And so it sounds like in terms of, you know, that those logistics and who to and who not to sell it to you put like a lot of your faith in Danny, you have that relationship, you have that trust, and it's like, Hey, you're the literary agent. So you what you decided to ultimately go with what you decide your criteria to be that some income gonna kind of follow when to take your guidance on that one. Right. And

Unknown Speaker 1:07:17

well, I like so I will say this, right? I hear this a lot from writers, where they are, they have these kind of weird relationships with their agents, because like, there's this whole power distance thing with with your agent where, you know, it's so hard to get an agent, and then you finally get one. And I think a lot of writers feel kind of deferential towards them without realizing that that agent works for you. And so that that agent will go out and get the best deal possible for you. If they're a good agent, and then they'll present you that deal, the present you whatever deals they can write. And you can say, No, that's the thing. Yeah. It's like, you know, I'm an agent, for example, has been doing this for like, almost 30 years. And so like, I trust her expertise, that's why I went with her as an agent in the first place. So it's, it's a balance, right? It's, it's trusting your agent, but also advocating for yourself. And it's not not every relationship is like mine, with my agent, like, you know, I've definitely heard a lot about writers who, you know, they're a newer writer, and their agent has a ton of clients. And they might not be a like a priority, you know, and so you have to keep in mind what your, what your position is there in the pecking order, frankly,

Michael David Wilson 1:08:39

you and I. Yeah, yeah. And just to clarify with the Blackstone publishing deal, so of course, you said that branching into print, they started off as audio I mean, they're renowned for audio. And audio. I mean, if you've listened to even a few audiobooks, then there's a huge chance that one was published by Blackstone audio, but we've we've your specific deal on that is for the print and the audio, is that right? Correct?

Unknown Speaker 1:09:14

Yes, correct. So there'll be, there'll be doing prints and audio versions of both of the books involved in the deal, man, fuck this house and other disasters and also good dogs,

Michael David Wilson 1:09:26

huh? Yeah, yeah. You have release dates for those?

Unknown Speaker 1:09:31

Not yet. Not yet. I hope to hope to in the near future, though. So the deals was recently finalized. We were able to announce it, you know, a couple of months ago, and yeah, there's there's just a lot of like eyes to cry, eyes to dot and T's to cross etc. But I hope to find I'm sure we'll get the data out there soon.

Michael David Wilson 1:09:54

Yeah, yeah. I have to say personally what you said about novels and novellas it. It's got me thinking, because I mean, I, as I said, I'm chopping my novel around at the moment. And I mean, I'm hoping that I will land someone, hopefully by the end of the year or come close to that. But I had been thinking, well, if I don't, maybe I'll independently put this one out. Or I'll kind of go in the indie circuit and see who I can sell it to. And then kind of, you know, query again with the next novel, probably not that is a special one. The second one you don't you don't lead with with daddy's boy just like if you're, you know, wooing someone, you don't get your dick out, you know, in this

Unknown Speaker 1:10:54

sense makes me go, you should read the book of writing advice.

Michael David Wilson 1:11:00

But now, I'm thinking, well, if I don't land an agent, maybe rather than, you know, put this out independently, maybe I should be put in novellas out until I sell that debut novel, directly realizations I have when I'm literally fucking right and free now for simultaneous. You know, I like my writing challenges. And it. You know, like, like I said before, when referring to Huberman if, if the joy is in the process, then it doesn't matter so much. It's like, well, and also, if I've got three complete novels, well, even better, by the time I do set sail is debut on because like, well, we've got these ones lined up as well.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:53

Why, right, exactly. There are just so many different paths and different things that you could potentially do. So there's not one right or one wrong, I think the debut novel thing can be a selling point for different presses. But it's not like you won't torpedo your career if your first book comes out with a small press or it comes out independently, you know? Yeah, it just depends, you know, but I know that Michael, you have for that novellas before, including one that was, you know, I read it was quite good. And one with Bob, that was also very, yes. So, you know, that's a model that you have done and have had some successes I believe with.

Michael David Wilson 1:12:36

Yeah, yeah. I mean, on a technical standpoint, They're Watching is, in fact, a novel, but only by 5000 words, but the fact that it was co written, not Bob specifically, the fact that it was co written means that it doesn't count and it's so much like wait, there's a loophole if you write something quick, Bob Pastorella

Bob Pastorella 1:13:00

novel to be your debut novel, come collaborate with me.

Michael David Wilson 1:13:07

But no, I think the fact that it's, it's a collaboration and you know, it's 45,000 words is barely a novel. It's a novel on a technicality. Yeah. That's like if in the UFC you get a decision victory, does it really count? I'm not sure. So yeah, I think this is the solo debut novel. No, Bob included. Of course, Bob has the problem that he is Bob. So whenever

you want to the fact that he is himself out of context, this is our people, and sewed for talking about controversial topics like Bob Pastorella

Bob Pastorella 1:14:07

Yeah, I didn't know I was the center of controversy, but man, he's gonna milk the shit out of that

Michael David Wilson 1:14:20

thank you so much for listening to Brian ANSMANN on This Is Horror. Join us again next time for the second and final part of the conversation. And any, we really get into the Christmas spirit. We are talking about his new book Return of the Living elves and Juggalos because what says Christmas better than a tinsel covered? juggalo? Nothing. That's what you show me. Someone who says a Juggalo is not festive. And I will show you someone who doesn't know the true meaning of Christmas. That is what we're talking about. And if you want that ahead of the curve, How'd you become a patron@patreon.com? Forward slash, This Is Horror. Not only do you get early bird access to episodes where we talk about Juggalos and elves and Christmas, but you get to submit questions to each and every guest. And we got so many amazing guests coming up soon, including the likes of David J. scow, and Cynthia Palacio. Now before I wrap up a little bit of an advert break.

Bob Pastorella 1:15:29

From the host of This Is Horror Podcast comes a dark thriller of obsession, paranoia and voyeurism. After relocating to a small coastal town, Brian discovers a hole that gazes into his neighbor's bedroom. Every night she dances and he peeps, same song, same time, same wild and mesmerizing dance. But soon Brian suspects he's not the only one watching. She's not the only one being watched. They're Watching is The Wicker Man meats Body Double with a splash of Suspiria They're Watching by Michael David Wilson and Bob Pastorella is available from this is horror.co.uk Amazon and wherever good books are sold.

RJ Bayley 1:16:08

It was as if the video had on zipped my skin slunk inside my tapered flesh and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella 1:16:16

From the crater of This Is Horror comes a new nightmare for the digital age. The Girl in the Video by Michael David Wilson. After a teacher receives a weirdly rousing video, his life descends into paranoia and obsession. More videos follow each containing information no stranger could possibly know. But who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and every one he loves. The Girl in the Video is the ring means fatal attraction for iPhone generation, available now in paperback ebook and audio.

Michael David Wilson 1:16:45

As always, I would like to end with a quote and this is one from Marcus Aurelius. And it really shows where my head is at. So here we go. Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the Vert cues you have lived by. If they are gods but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no Gods then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I'll see you in the next episode for part two with Brian asthma and Juggalos and Christmas. But until then, take care yourselves be good to one another. Read horror. Keep on writing and have a great, great day.