The transcript for the video version. Add around one minute to the timestamps for this audio version.

Michael David Wilson

Today we are joined by Brian Keene a man who should need no introduction to horror fans. But apparently I'm going to give him 1 anyway, he is an offer of a multitude of books including the rising city of the dead. Dark hollow and the 7 to name but 4 he's also the owner of the forthcoming book and comic store vortex books and comics which video viewers will be able to see Brian welcome back to this is horror.

00:32.35

Brian Keene

Thank you Michael it's good to be with you and Bob again I think last time I was on was four or five years ago am I right and you you made me cry. Do you remember that? Yeah, so not intentionally, but.

00:41.17

Michael David Wilson

Um, yeah, yeah I I do Yeah yeah, not no, not intentional, but it happened.

00:51.84

Brian Keene

But you did make me cry now as you said we're we're ah opening a a book and comic store. And yeah I've been doing construction for the last month and I saved this 2 by 4 for you so make me cry again. Yes, so.

01:09.70

Michael David Wilson

Ah, there you go less than a minute and we've already got a threat of violence and yeah, but I mean normally when we have a returning guest I'll ask.

01:13.90

Brian Keene

Well, you know would you expect anything less for me.

01:24.65

Michael David Wilson

You know what have been the biggest changes for them both personally and professionally in that time but given it's been five years and all the things that have gone on not just personally but on a global scale. It almost seems an impossible question.

01:43.22

Brian Keene

No I can answer it. Um I mean ah personally I mean the pandemic was was tough on me just like it was tough on every other person in the world. Um I think even those of us who.

02:00.14

Brian Keene

Who shrugged it off and said oh you know we made it through that I don't I don't think they've quite taken the mental inventory of of maybe the the subconscious damage they they suffered as a result of that. Um you know, but I I did find that I was more prolific. Ah. You know here in the states when we shut down and everybody had to stay home and all that I was I was living with Mary who was still my girlfriend at the time now of course she's my wife author Mary Saniovanni ah and my youngest son was with us and his mother was with us so you know if you ever wanted a sitcom about. Ah, you know a cult writer who lives with his ex-wife and his future wife and and the kiddo we were living that sitcom but it it was actually delightful. Um, you know the girls really bonded and they had each other to to do activities and stuff with and make fun of me together and and you know the kid had. Everybody in this family there and I found that I had a ah lot more time to write so you know I'm coming out of that. Ah, you know the the horror genre I don't believe has ever been healthier than it is now um now you guys know me I'm I'm big on the history of horror fiction. Um, you know I'm I'm I don't claim to be as knowledgeable as st yoshi. Um, but you know I I do think I dig as deep as he does. Ah.

03:35.60

Brian Keene

And going back to even the pulps I don't think horror fiction has ever had quite the popularity. It has now not in the the eighty s ninety s not during the leisure books years and the rise of the small press. Um, and that's that's awesome to see. Ah. But I keep warning everybody these things run in cycles and we're we're at the top of the wave right now. Well that wave's going to start coming shore soon. Ah, and not to get the show started with a total downer. But I I see that starting to happen. Um, so. Where I am professionally and personally is I'm 56 I've got what maybe ten years twenty years thirty years if I'm lucky incredibly lucky. Ah i.

04:29.66

Brian Keene

Want to slow down I need to slow down I feel myself slowing down I want to write when I want to write and what I want to write I don't want to keep chasing after royalty checks etc. So ah I got a a very nice advance for an upcoming book. That we can talk about ah end of the world as we know it tales of Stephen King's the stand and I took that advance and I invested it in this. Um you know Mary and I now have a second revenue stream once this is up and running. Um.

05:05.36

Brian Keene

When we're in our seventy s we won't have to chase dwindling royally checks. You know, Hopefully they'll still come in but this will supplement them I can sit here and when a customer comes in the store I'll help them and when they don't I'll sit here and and write what I want to write when I want to write so kind of. Tunnel vision focused on that.

05:23.39

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, and there's so much that we could jump into now. But I think going back to you talking about horror being kind of a peak right Now. What do you think we could attribute the current popularity of horror to?

05:43.50

Brian Keene

Well there's a couple things. Um I mean horror always does better when things are bad um you know it. It did well during and after world war two. It did insanely. Well. Ah, during the Reagan and thatcher years it did insanely well again after 9 eleven um I think there is a comfort and a safety in horror fiction. Um, you know people have always loved that. Vicarious throw I mean some of the the earliest cave paintings. You know sure they depict the hunt and they depict life but they also depict the things that those people were afraid of um and I think that holds true now I I think ah. When you have very real life monsters who are shooting up a high school or flying an airplane into a building or you know, just crushing the little guy under their foot because they're a billionaire and they can get away with doing it. Um, it's. For some people. There's a comfort in retreating to werewolves and zombies and witches and and monsters. Um, you know so I think that's part of it. But I think the other part of it is is technology and the and the way this world is connected. Um.

07:13.87

Brian Keene

It's easier now than ever for anybody to publish a book. It's it's still just as hard to write a book I mean I guess unless you use Ai than it's it's easier to write a book too. But you know fuck anybody who does that um that that's where I stand on the issue.

07:33.20

Brian Keene

This is for ai. Um, you know it's easier to get published There are more venues now than there have ever been for authors to get published and to get their work out there. Um, and I think that certainly contributes a large part to the the popularity of the genre. Um, the problem with that is and it's the problem we ran into during the great recession and it's the problem they ran into in the early 90 s and it's the problem they ran into with the demise of the pulps is that the audience is finite. Um. And the more and more authors and publishers that enter the field. Um, they're all fighting for that same audience. Maybe fighting isn't the right word but they're all competing for that same audience and you know when the economy is great. That's great. When the price of groceries and everything else is going up and you know those customers still have a limited amount of money to spend on books each month more and more of those books fall by the wayside. So you know I think. While things are fantastic now I think we're probably heading to that. There's a the world's on fire. There's so much uncertainty and you know I I I can't see this boom continuing you know forever. It's it's going to have to die off eventually.

09:02.41

Brian Keene

Um, and then things will go quiet for a while and then we'll have another boom you know, but I I I think that's a ways All I'm not saying this is going to happen tomorrow but it will happen and and.

09:15.58

Brian Keene

I know ah new authors don't always take my advice anymore. But if there's 1 thing you'll hear me on it's this these things run in cycles. It's going to happen so prepare yourself for it now and that way you can get through it.

09:27.80

Michael David Wilson

And what kind of things would you advise people do to prepare themselves. Yes.

09:36.24

Brian Keene

If you're an author um never ever ever ever ever put all your eggs in 1 basket meaning never publish solely with 1 publisher never strictly self publish if if you go that route. Um.

09:53.27

Brian Keene

Because you know I always point back to the great recession I had 2 major publishers I had ah leisure books who were doing all my mass market paperbacks and my audio books and my ebooks and I had a delirium who were doing about 90% of my small press limited editions. Ah, they both went out of business in the space of four months and that was 90% of my annual income lost like that. Um, so you'll never limit yourself to 1 or 2 publishers spread spread your work around. Um. I think it's better for readers to discover you that way too. Um, because we we live in an era where where readers are not only fans of writers. They're fans of publishers particularly indie publishers. Um, they'll buy everything an indie publisher puts out everything in their catalog. So. I think that's the number 1 thing the number 2 thing is if you have a significant other who has a day job and health insurance and 4 ah one k treat them like gold and if you are lucky enough to have ah a day job where you have ah. Health insurance in a 4 ah one k don't quit that day job. Um I I will yeah I think I can name him I don't think he'll get Mad Wesley southed ah is one of the the few folks that I mentor now and ah.

11:22.38

Brian Keene

You know he he gets so frustrated because he he works at a factory during the day and you know west grew up watching me and Brian Smith and J F Gonzalez and all these full time writers and he wants it so bad and career wise he's probably to the point where he could do that. But he's got a kid and he's got a wife and he's got a mortgage and this factory job is union wages and fantastic health insurance and fantastic for a one k and and I keep telling him you know you you can't quit that job you you have to keep that job. Um, so so those are the things I would suggest and you know if you if you can I mean you know look I'm a horror writer through and through but I've dabbled in science fiction I've I've done weird fantasy um, working on a western. Um. You know don't be afraid to to let your muse spread out and try other things so that's that's Brian Keene's survival skit my prepper skills for surviving any hard crash.

12:31.36

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah, and I think whoever to be a full time writer or to have a day job or to even have a side job. It's at least for me it is ah. Endless dilemma and I find it at different stages of my life. There's different answers to that and so I mean I've I've tried doing this like full full time self-employed so the writing and the podcast and the editing or know even as I'm saying that it's like well that's not. All my eggs in 1 basket that is free separate ventures but I mean since returning to Japan in 2020 I've been doing I mean technically on paper. It's full time teaching but I should add the caveat that when I was looking for a teaching job.

13:23.50

Michael David Wilson

I looked for the teaching job with the most amount of Holiday. So I almost have as many days off as I do on so it it is on paper full time teaching but not really. Ah, but now that I've found I can actually have this full time income and still write and still Podcast. It's a little bit difficult even though financially I could just about do it to then let go of that because I've got this. Security Blanket. So I don't know what I'll do I mean I Guess if there was a really good pay date and I might reduce the teaching time but I don't know if I'd ever quit it actually because it does give you a little bit. More money a little bit more security and the other thing that was at least bizarre for me was when I was full time self-employed I found that like my mental health was suffering a bit I was a little bit lonelier. There was the isolation. Before that happened I know it's like no I could just be in a room indefinitely and just writing and I'd be happy with that and that'll be fine but turns out that some human interaction is a good thing after all who would have known it.

14:45.32

Brian Keene

Yes, it is yes it is.

14:50.39

Bob Pastorella

Yeah I mean I'm ah I'm in the same boat I have I have a job I can't stand but considering what I used to do before I had this job I have a lot more freedom now I have more time off. Ah, one of the things too is that as as as we get older. Ah you know our bodies change our needs Change. We We develop things that we don't really want to have high blood pressure diabetes and we we tend to take things for granted. And you know and what put me into perspective because you know a couple years ago I was talking with toying with the idea of early retirement I'm like I could probably figure out a way to make you know as much money as I am making now as writing. And then I happened to look at the actual cost of my prescriptions compared to what I make a month and I am still at my job because I do have really really good benefits.

15:55.40

Bob Pastorella

Being a diabetic and even though I'm on less insulin than I've ever been on since I started it. Um, my medications are more than I make a month without insurance and so that's those when you have benefits that's monumental it's paramount you you got to have it because what without those benefits riding full time you you can get insurance. Sure you're going to pay for it. Youll pay a lot more than you do if you're with ah you know a corporation that provides them. You know and and takes it out of your check at at Pennies compared to what you're going to pay so that's that's a consideration you know I guess I'd have to have a significant amount of money in an advance for me to even consider. And when I say can significant. It had to be you know, something in the room of half a million dollars because anything less than that. It's like no I'll just take the money and I'll continue working.

16:59.10

Brian Keene

Well and that's that's the thing I don't think a lot of people realize you can get those significant advances. You know, maybe not a half a million dollars but you can you can get 5 figures mid 5 figures and you say hot. Damn you know that's that's a year's salary for me. I'm going to go full time as a writer and then it may be 3 years before you see another check you know? So at that that time the next year you're broke again, you know you're back to eating ramen noodles and drinking cheap beer. Um, you know it it Joe Lansdale

17:38.80

Brian Keene

You know Joe's a dear friend but he's also a writer I've always admired and he's he as a as a man he's somebody I've admired that I aspire to to be more like you know Ah my friends of faith will say what would Jesus do. I I say w w j d do but it's it's what would Joe do um and you know Joe ah, he's always hustled and he's always made smart decisions. Um, and you see here.

18:12.53

Brian Keene

You know over the last decade you see how it's paid off where he can finally slow down a little bit and he can enjoy things a little bit. Um and I see that coming for me too. Ah I just I wish it had happened when I was in my thirty s or my 40 s. You know I I I don't think I've ever told this story publicly back during the recession when I was talking about leisure books and and all you know the small press collapsing and everything I was like well shit I got to I got to find a day job again. It's been fifteen years you know so ah I live in a small town and and I went back to the loading docks which was the last day job I had before I went full time they wouldn't hire me because they thought I wanted the job temporarily so I could write a book about the place. Um. I mean they told me that to my face and and that was the problem everybody around town even like the grocery store they're like we are a famous writer now. Why would you want to come back to work here I finally took an adjunct position at the at the local college where I got bullied by all the other professors because they were all failed writers. Um, that's a story for another time. But yeah, it was a it was brutal year man. Um, anyway, we boy we really went on a downer is anybody even listening at this point it.

19:44.15

Michael David Wilson

Oh I don't know we have quite a nihilistic audience. So it's probably this. This is probably uplifting compared to some of the things that we talk about? are you sure that the story where you were bullied by the other professors is a story for another time.

19:49.55

Brian Keene

That's just true. If.

20:01.63

Michael David Wilson

Could it be a story for this time right now.

20:01.69

Brian Keene

Yeah, ah you know, no it was they would they would complain about me because like one of their complaints was and I'm not making this up. He pulled into the parking lot blasting rage against the machine. You know. that was that was considered unprofessional. They used to complain that my my class was too noisy and that I you know because it it was a writing class and and it was you know it was I wanted to keep people engaged and we would. We did a. Ah, thing on you know, great opening sentences and I would have each of them take turns reading these great opening sentences aloud and we took a field trip to a borders bookstore one time so I could I could teach them about you know the the marketing side and and all of these were big. No-nos according to the the other professors. So. Finally when I when I signed with deadite press then I was like all right? Well fuck you college I never want to be an academic anyway. But we have a friend of mine who works there at admissions. She told me she said Brian you know they're jealous of you because you've achieved.

21:00.46

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah.

21:10.64

Brian Keene

What they've always wanted to do I'm like tell them I'm writing books about giant man eating worms I'm I'm not you know writing great American novel and then she said to them. It doesn't matter. You could be writing the the most popiest of Pulp fiction. You're still achieving something. They've always wanted to do so.

21:27.73

Michael David Wilson

And yeah now I I mean I've met academic types such as the ones that you're describing and I don't know it. It is a very bizarre but familiar.

21:28.48

Brian Keene

It wasn't that great of a story Michael it.

21:46.53

Michael David Wilson

Attitude that they have but you know that they can put someone selling books on a pedestal but it's like if if they kind of put the time into that the time that they put into denigrating level works then they probably could achieve that dream anyway. Like that you know that there is a way to go about it and yeah I mean I'm I'm glad that you're actually showing students how they could get their work into bookstores how they could go about marketing because yes, it's about writing but it's also.

22:05.17

Brian Keene

Yep.

22:21.77

Michael David Wilson

About doing this as ah, a business as well as as an endeavor a professional endeavor.

22:28.55

Brian Keene

Exactly I mean you know creating art is great and it's valid and you know ah salute if you want to create art but you know I I want to create art create art. But I also want to feed my kids so you have to treat it like a business.

22:39.10

Michael David Wilson

Yeah.

22:43.70

Brian Keene

When you want to feed your kids you know.

22:44.76

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah.

22:48.18

Bob Pastorella

I'm still cracking up about the bullying. What I mean these guys. What did they wearing in their tweed jackets. They got their diplomas rolled up like shotdty sabres throw going John Updike books at you you trade a you.

22:56.98

Brian Keene

I mean look it's I mean Bob look. It's me. Do you think I didn't get him back I mean I'm not going to talk about in the air because you know I'm not sure what the statute of limitations is on some of the things I pulled but ah yeah.

23:05.10

Michael David Wilson

I am.

23:05.56

Bob Pastorella

Um, I know you did yeah.

23:13.77

Brian Keene

I Got the last laugh.

23:14.77

Bob Pastorella

No doubt this bull. You're keen talking about and then you take 3 boiled eggs and stick it in your gas can yeah.

23:14.98

Michael David Wilson

People will have to tune in in 20 years from now when a statue of limitations will be up to find out what happened next.

23:19.70

Brian Keene

If if.

23:31.31

Brian Keene

Um, yeah, oh yeah, that's a that's a good trick.

23:34.19

Bob Pastorella

Ah.

23:35.60

Michael David Wilson

I Mean talking about you know, feeding your kids and doing this as a business that does link us back into vortex books and comics and my understanding is that the impetus For. Opening a bookstore. It actually begins with a conversation in 2006 a book signing in Washington D C So let's go all the way back to that.

24:06.62

Brian Keene

I don't remember that conversation. Well yeah, okay I know that I know the one you're talking about. Um, yeah, it was ah was it 2006 or was it earlier I know it was early early on but ah.

24:22.70

Brian Keene

We had done a ah mass book signing. It was me and Jf Gonzales and El Marie wood Mary Sanovanni who was engaged to another guy at the time. Um, and then you had you know the veterans of that time f Paul Wilson Steven spruill Douglas winner. And we were. We were talking about how jnwilliamson had just died now I'm betting younger readers probably don't know Jn Williamson um if they do know him. They probably know him from Grady Hendris's paperbacks from hell. Um. But j n williamson was probably the most prolific horror novelist of the 80 s um and he made a very good living as a a midlist paperback horror novelist. Um, and then he died broke in an old folks home.

25:17.80

Brian Keene

With ah his sister and authors Gary Brombeck and Maurice brought us attending his his service that was it ah and the preacher ah spoke about how ah Williammson had had wasted his god given talents glorifying satan. By writing these horror novels and you know me and Jf and El Marie and Mary we were standing in the the kitchen and of this apartment at this party after the signing and and we're talking about. You know how shocked we were that j n williamson you know went out that way and. Then our conversation turned to Charlie Grant charles l grant who was Mary's mentor who at the time was ah in hospice and also struggling financially and and we just we couldn't believe this and doug winter happened to pass through the kitchen to get a beer. And he said now you know what keeps me awake at night kiddo and he wandered away just dropped that truth bomb on us and walked away. Um, but it's it's true. Ah as an author even as a successful author and I'm not talking about Stephen King or Joe Lansdale their stuff will be read 100 years from now. But I'm I'm talking about your average author even successful even prolific you have shelf life. Um, you look at the the popularity of Richard Lehman Twenty years ago ten years ago and now

26:52.10

Brian Keene

And and you see it waning and and that breaks my heart because you know Dick Laman was my mentor but it happens um people who I grew up reading ah aren't being read as much anymore except by people my age and. I noticed that the same is starting to to happen with my audience. Um, you know I do pick up the occasional younger reader. Ah, but for the most part those younger readers are reading the people who grew up reading me you know Wesley Souththered or Stephen Kosanwski or you know. Countless others. Um, and that's normal and that's natural I'm not complaining about it. Let me reiterate for the you know the peanut gallery out there I'm not complaining about it. I understand that you know it's the circle of fucking life. But that does impact you financially. You know when you're selling 70000 copies of a book and then your audience starts dying off and you're selling 30000 copies of a book. Ah that that's ah, that's a financial hit. Um, so you know I've always. Had it in my head that there's got to be some kind of second revenue stream some kind of retirement and you know Jf Gonzales and I used to talk about it. Oh man, you know when we hit our fifty s we'll open a bookstore. Um, you know hey Zeus isn't here to to open it with me. Um his ashes will be here though. We're gonna.

28:28.46

Brian Keene

We're gonna put him here in the store. Ah, but this is this is the revenue stream I've I've spent my career trying to think how to say this without sounding egotistical or arrogant.

28:44.77

Brian Keene

When I started professionally. The horror genre was at rock bottom it was the mid 90 s the year of the collapse that was when I sold my first short story and I say sell I got paid a copy of of the zine. Ok but I've I've spent. My career not only trying to get my books out there and build an audience but I've spent it trying to build the hard genre back up and I won't toot my horn but I will say look around I I like I would like to think I I've contributed this. Some of this. Um, this store is a way that we can as I said have that that revenue stream coming in in our old age but I can also continue to help people to uplift people. I'm not going I gave Bob a tour I spun the laptop earlier I'm not going to do that to your audience that's watching because I don't want to make them dizzy but I'm proud of our shelves. Um, you know our shelves have authors from the 30 s that nobody remembers to young authors who just published their first book. Um, it's an incredibly diverse lineup on the shelves and I'm proud of that and I'm proud of the fact that you know if a customer comes in here and says I like so and so who else can you recommend Mary and I both.

30:13.48

Brian Keene

Know this industry well enough and we're well read enough that we can say oh if you like that author you'll like this one. Um, so it's an opportunity for us to still help people and maybe not it not be as available to everyone all the time does that make sense. Because I'll tell you the truth I am sick to death of doing conventions I'm sick to death of doing book signing tours. Um I like people I love meeting my readers. Um, but.

30:48.80

Brian Keene

If I wanted to have a career helping people I I could do it 24 hours a day and still not get caught up my email inbox is proof of that. There's over 4000 unread messages right now and and I don't even think about it because to stop and consider that would be would be madness.

31:05.44

Michael David Wilson

Right.

31:08.68

Brian Keene

I I would I this store is a way for us to sort of build some walls so that we can. We can still help. We can still uplift but we can also have. Arm's length distance and a little breathing room for once in our careers and you know given that we're almost married a year now getting that breathing room is important to us. So it's it's a lot of things. But yeah, it's been back there in the back of the head since 2006 you're right? That was ah a very long-winded way. You you guys forgot because it's been five years I I give 20 minute answers how many

31:51.30

Michael David Wilson

Ah, but it. It's all good I mean the most difficult thing is knowing which part of the answer to follow up on and I mean in terms of you helping people within the genre that has been like a career.

32:08.41

Michael David Wilson

One concern or it certainly feels like it has and I know that there have been numerous times throughout your career where you've had to take different steps back as it were to protect your own mental health and I mean last time but right.

32:22.57

Brian Keene

Every time I think I'm out they pull me back in Michael.

32:28.19

Michael David Wilson

That's that's exactly it and I mean last time we were speaking given that that was what mid 2019 I mean you were really in the thick of it at that point it wasn't too long after where you you had to say. Like I mean I mean there were a number of problematic people within the genre and any time problematic behavior showed up in in all sorts of guises then you would be the guy who people came to you will be the guy who called them Out. Publicly and you know you you had to take a step back I think that was part of the reason why the horror show podcast had to just right.

33:14.74

Brian Keene

It wasn't part. It wasn't part of the reason that was the entire reason. Um I mean I've never told the whole story of what happened behind the scenes at the horror show and I never will publicly. Um, you know if you want to catch me in a bar. Sure maybe I'll tell you. Um, but there were there were a couple things going on you know Dave was fighting cancer and every week we were dredging. You know we were trekking through the sewer. Um.

33:50.67

Brian Keene

With with all these these grifters and these sex pests and you know these misogynists and and all these terrible people and we were cleaning house but man it wore Dave down it wore me down it wore Mary and Matt down. Um, you know the the horror show was incredibly successful. Ah, but it was also an incredible burden and what was what was fulfilling to me is when we stopped you know. I remember distinctly remember this conversation with Dave. He's like well what's the job we're going to listen to and and I said well they they still have this is her and they still have lovecraft easy. So you know, um. He said all right? Well who's going to fight the bad guys and I said well somebody else is going to have to step up and what was incredibly gratifying. Is you see a whole generation stepping up and doing that very thing. Um and I'm not going to sit here and and give shoutouts all night but I will give 1 special shout out to caino igless. Ah, you know Gabino is somebody who I I tried to help and mentor early on and Gaino I see you being Batman. Um, so that that was that was a relief to do um and.

35:19.59

Brian Keene

Since then I've taken steady small steps to further insulate myself from that and I know it's working now. Um, because last week I guess there were there were 3 different controversies in our genre and I didn't know anything about any of them. In fact, the one I had to. Had to have author Sonora Taylor explain it to me like I was five years old because I just didn't understand it. Um, and it's incredibly freeing to to not be in the loop on all these things now I know some people may say oh well. You know you're speaking from a place of privilege you that you don't have to know these things anymore. Well maybe it is um I can't help my privilege I can acknowledge it I can recognize it but I can't help it. Um, but I will tell you this? um.

36:14.80

Brian Keene

I fought against that bullshit for almost thirty years you know I stepped up and and fought every you know when the rabid puppies came for this genre who chased him away it was me um you know when. Publishers were screwing over authors who stepped up it was me I think I've earned the right to sit back and not be involved anymore. Um, and I can quietly advise those who are on the front lines now. Um you know if you can't dig that if you think that's me coming from a place of privilege fuck you. I've earned the right to to sit back and and not be involved every day because being involved every day is not good for my mental health It's not good for my emotional health I'm 56 as Bob said you know our friends like high blood pressure and everything else pops up i'm. I'm not killing myself for this industry I'm a horror fan I bleed horror I love har. But I'm not going to leave my kids an orphan because some sex pest was sending dick pics to to authors. There's there's other people. Who are equipped to deal with that now it it doesn't have to be me anymore and if I sound angry. Well I am because I I see your vague tweets out there. You'll know I'm not going to name names I know who you are and you know who you are I see your vague tweets and and again I say fuck you with both middle fingers. So.

37:24.53

Bob Pastorella

M.

37:41.51

Bob Pastorella

You know I used to tune in every every Thursday and to to hear you know you in and everybody break down the the latest controversy. Fill us in on on ongoing stuff and ah I distinctly remember when you announced and I believe I'm pretty sure you did it on Twitter that were where you were like hey you know? Ah, basically you're like I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore and I remember reading that thinking you know it's it's time. Yeah, we tuned in because we have this this. It's like doom scrolling.

38:17.54

Brian Keene

Um, here.

38:36.14

Bob Pastorella

To where you you want to you? You can't help yourself but you want to hear about the latest controversy and I I now that I'm I'm not on on not on Twitter I'm mainly on on blue sky a little bit on threads. Um.

38:55.12

Bob Pastorella

Ah, it it takes a while for a controversy to to to kind of hit and I I love being oblivious to it like I Just don't It's almost like ah I'll read it and go you know what people are fucking dumb I'm done.

39:04.56

Brian Keene

Yep.

39:11.78

Bob Pastorella

Um, close the browser go back to writing or go back to whatever I was doing I just I don't on time for that lunacy and that that stupidity.

39:18.29

Brian Keene

1 that that's the thing it's the immediacy and permanence of it now. I mean there have always been controversies. There's always been drama in this industry if you go back and read the the letters columns from afraid magazine and and. The horror show and twilight zone the the fanines from the 80 s and the 90 s people would fight in the letters columns I've got the whole run where Charlie Grant excoriates the splatter punks and then you know you wait a month in the next issue John skip. Writes this passion defense and this young new author named Brian Hodge writes this impassioned defense and you watch it play out over a year and they all work out their differences and by the time the next horror convention rolls around they're they're all on the bar together but with with social media. It's it's immediate. It's right there you're not you're not waiting a month for that letters column it's right there and you're immersed in it you're stewing in it and I think I think that's toxic I don't think as human beings we're wired to. Consume that I mean look I'm I'm not saying don't be outraged over a sex pest or a grifter you yeah you should be outraged but to stew in that twenty four seven I don't think is healthy for anyone I don't think it's healthy for the industry either. Um.

40:45.28

Bob Pastorella

Who.

40:50.89

Brian Keene

So I I you know I don't judge anybody who wants to you know, disconnect and and pull out and find their peace. Um, you know because I'm I'm all about doing the same I've done the same.

41:05.10

Bob Pastorella

We hear people and then you hear those that get on social media and always all your your silence is is complicity and all that no my silence is oblivious because I didn't know what the hell is going on I've got other things to do and I think that. If you if you know me and you know and you know who I am I don't have to explain myself to anyone you know? Um I think that the people who follow me on social media have come to expect what what they see is what they get. Don't think anyone's follow me when I'm follow him cause I just know I just know he's gonna turn one day and he's gonna say something and I'm a be right there with the receipts. It's like fuck you ain't gonna find no fucking receipts man cause I ain't know I'm I'm pretty genuine. So if I'm silent about something is' cause 1.

42:02.87

Bob Pastorella

I didn't know about it too I don't care about it and I think that if I think the more people that that ah try their best to do that. You'll be able to get a lot more accomplished in your career. That's that's positive and not toxic. That's just me I don't know maybe maybe I'm wrong.

42:22.38

Michael David Wilson

Yeah I mean sometimes it's that I'm oblivious sometimes it might be that I don't care but then other times it's like my job.

42:22.53

Bob Pastorella

But you know.

42:35.42

Michael David Wilson

Is not to voice my opinion on every single issue. That's not what I do That's presumably not why people are following me and you know it It is Bizarre. To me at least when I read things like if you don't state your opinion on this then you're complicit if you need me to state that I'm not a racist that I'm not a sexist that I'm not a transphobe then you don't know me. Like I'm not going to just state the absolute obvious and all the time I haven't stated publicly whether I do or don't think it is a good idea in marketing your book. To send out a message to underage Guilds and ask them to take their clothes off with your book I haven't stated my position on that because it should be very obvious.

43:24.98

Brian Keene

It.

43:32.48

Bob Pastorella

Oh.

43:33.42

Brian Keene

Thank you, thank you? or or you know maybe you don't maybe you're not in that case. Okay, and that's the case by the way that Sonora Taylor had to explain to me because I didn't know the author didn't know what the author had done.

43:50.34

Brian Keene

I'll give you an example. Um I won't say who but somebody emailed me and and excoriated me from my silence on ah Israel and Hamas and I said well you know.

44:09.67

Brian Keene

I've when I was in the military. Ah I was in Israel quite a bit. Um, you know I was in haifi I was in Tel Aviv I've been to Gaza City not a lot of americans can say that um I've seen intimately both. Sides of this conflict and my thoughts on it aren't going to fit in one hundred and forty character fucking tweet. Um my thoughts on it would make probably ah a good thirty Thousand Forty thousand word you know treaties and I may get around to writing that. But right now I have other things to write. Ah, you know my my kids aren't going to get fed on my thoughts on that right now. So you know this this? Oh well, they they haven't explicitly said something about it. They must be this or that. No, that only exists in your head dear reader. Um, you know we're all human beings too and and we have thoughts and opinions on these things but we have a finite amount of hours in the day and and to express something with nuance and thoughtfulness and heart. Um. Sometimes it takes more than a social media post to do that. You know.

45:27.40

Michael David Wilson

And yeah, that that is exactly it and I mean with a lot of issues. There is nuance. There is yeah consideration and and sometimes. Yeah, when an issue is presented to you. You need some time to actually process it So It's not a good idea to just state your initial opinion because after reflection and consideration. It might be different anyway. But you know social media is not. Set up for Nuance. It is not set up for you know, having something where there are different facets to the opinion they want you to pick a side I feel these days days that society wants you to pick a side. Too often to fit into this camp or to fit into that camp when normally the truth is somewhere in the middle. It might lean more towards one side than the other but it's rarely a kind of black and white Issue. We are living in a fucking rainbow with lots of color and nuance. You. Can't just say this is the opinion. This is the box I mean I've even said this before with politics I feel these days people they choose a side. They either believe this party or they believe that party. But I think if you were.

46:54.20

Michael David Wilson

Honest and if you really do have an opinion.. There's probably a party that you resonate with more but I'm sure there are things that that party does that you disagree with and there are things that the other party does that you might have some sympathy for because we are human Beings. We are all. Built different and this is why I prefer podcasts and had your conversation than trying to put it in a tweet or in some sort of social media post because as I said originally they're not designed for this.

47:28.66

Brian Keene

No, they're not.

47:32.62

Bob Pastorella

I know and a lot of times too I find myself wanting to to say something but I don't ah I don't know enough about it and. That right there is is is where most people should stop in other words like didn't like you know backspace out of what you have discard your comment and move on because if you don't know what you're talking about. It's something political or or whatever. Then then don't then don't state your opinion because at that point right? there you're just looking for a fight. It's all it is. You're just you're're. You're opening yourself up either. You might not be looking for a fight but you're you're gonna get 1 and then you're gonna be. Backing. You're gonna you're gonna feel this this this heavy heavy heavy feeling of oh shit. So now I just I don't have an opinion on that I don't even know what it's about and so I'm not gonna say anything I'm a move.

48:36.54

Brian Keene

Well, another another aspect and I was I was just talking about this with ah a friend of mine at the at Christopher Golden's house last resort weekend a couple weekends ago in 2003 2004 I I would try to use my platform. To speak up for people who didn't have a voice in our industry at that time. Ah, you know March folks from marginalized communities. Um in 2023 2024 the landscape is vastly different those folks. Have a voice now. Um and a lot of times I'll think ah you know I should chime in on this and I'm like no nobody needs to hear my fucking opinion on this. They know what my opinion is these folks have a platform now they they have they will be heard. you know let them address it um you know I that that's that's something I do a lot and I don't think that I know Mary realizes it. But I don't think the public realizes that. So yeah, yeah, yeah to summarize you know silence doesn't mean agreement. It doesn't mean consent. It. It can mean many other things.

49:54.52

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, absolutely and I mean in terms of getting your opinion out there in terms of connecting with audiences I mean this is kind of an area that we've been. Talking about or at least skirting around but right now I mean social media couldn't be more divided in in terms of using it as a marketing tool in terms of using it as a way to get ideas out there I mean. It's so divided that there is no longer any consensus as to which platform to use and if there is to become a dominant platform again. We probably haven't even seen it. It probably doesn't even exist yet. It will turn up in the future. But. My understanding is the 2 places that you are most often connecting with your audience is Patreon and substack. So I want to know a little bit about why you've chosen these platforms what you're doing.

50:57.60

Brian Keene

Yep.

51:06.77

Michael David Wilson

In terms of substack is that now your only email or newsletter and if so why did you go to substack because is a relatively new platform So you've had a newsletter predating substack.

51:22.76

Brian Keene

Yeah I mean I've you know people? forget ah I started an email newsletter back in 1998? Um, you know? and so yeah I I've I've always liked that method of communicating. Um. The 1 on substack I I chose the platform because at the time you know they were. They were a new startup. But um, you didn't quite simply you didn't have the problem with spam filters with substack that you had with so many others they for whatever reason they. Able to get in through Gmail they were able to get in the outlook. You know they didn't automatically get flagged the spam. Um, you know I I stick with the platform because I've built it up. Um, you know it used to be I'd say.

52:14.87

Brian Keene

Fifty Five sixty percent of my sales came from promotion on social media now I'd say 55 60% of my sales come from that newsletter on substack. Um, but it took a lot of hard work to get it to that place. But. I like substack because exactly what we were saying I I'm not limited by you know one ah hundred and forty character tweet or skeet as it is on blue sky or you know whatever the limit is on Instagram when you when you type next to your your photo. Um. You know I I can take the time to be nuanced and expand and really express myself. Um I don't like that substack was you know monetizing white supremacists and such earlier this year. But you know what? I remember when the nazis were on myspace when they showed up on Myspace we all left when they showed up on Facebook we all left when they when they showed up on Twitter we all left well, you know what? if you keep leaving. Then sooner or later every platform is nothing but a fucking nazi platform. So substack is where I've planned my flag um you know and I'll fight back there. Ah so that you know I I like it because I can I can summarize my week.

53:44.34

Brian Keene

You know I I always loved blogging and I treat it kind of like my blog now. Um and then patron you know I do a little good morning post every day just for everybody. You don't have to be a you don't have to pay me a dollar to see it. You can just go to my patron and and subscribe for free. And every morning you get a little hello from me, you know I do a lot of photos from of authors and actors and things over the years um and then ah you know two more times throughout the day I post paid content and and that comes back to.

54:22.51

Brian Keene

What we were talking about earlier as an author gets older their audience also gets older and that audience starts to shrink. Um patron is a way of keeping my audience energized interacting with them and quite. Frankly, making some money off of doing that as well. Um, you know patron is is one of my main sources of income now. Annually so you know it's it's a it's a good give and take the the people seem to enjoy the content. Um I certainly enjoy creating it form. You know all the novels that I write I serialize on there now. It's people get to see what my first Draft Looks like day by day you know so.

55:09.37

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, and in terms of when you switch to substack Did you port all your existing subscribers for your previous newsletter.

55:20.77

Brian Keene

Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, that was another reason why I went with them because they they allowed me to do that at the time not all the the various newsletter venues would allow you to do that. So. That was that that was a big deal for me I think I was using Mailchimp prior to that? yeah.

55:38.76

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah, Well I I I used Mailchimp and then after I went to convert kit and at the moment I I am wondering about going to. Another provider like substack is one of the ones that I'm looking at at the moment mostly because Convert kit is expensive and I think it's expensive because it's it's main audience are like kind of business bloggers and people selling courses and.

56:13.00

Brian Keene

Right.

56:15.38

Michael David Wilson

Selling their kind of get rich quick ebook which if you read it. It's essentially write an ebook just like this. Oh right? Thank you for for that one so say yeah I'm not really making the money back in the kind of.

56:25.81

Brian Keene

Um, yeah.

56:33.92

Michael David Wilson

Quantities that other people would be and I mean I I think substack am I right in thinking that it's actually free or is there a limit and do you have to.

56:44.70

Brian Keene

Ah, my my newsletters mine. Well my newsletter is free to subscribers I will never charge people to read my newsletter I I think that's icky to do I'm not judging other writers that do it's just I personally.

56:52.50

Michael David Wilson

Yeah.

56:58.45

Brian Keene

It goes against my own personal moral code. Um I don't know if I'm paying a ah monthly fee for substack or not how terrible is that ah I should point out to.

57:11.93

Brian Keene

To listeners. It's it's like what is it seven zero seven p m my time and I've been up since four a m my time. Um, so I might not even remember my name by the end of these 2 hours but I I don't remember if I'm I think I must be paying a monthly fee for substack.

57:27.93

Bob Pastorella

I I think the way it works a thing is like Patreon that if you do monetize then they take a cut um becausez that that's what lured me there to to begin with and I hemmed and hod like you but um.

57:30.79

Brian Keene

I mean.

57:34.31

Brian Keene

All Then they'd take a cut. Okay.

57:47.29

Bob Pastorella

I just I was on there I didn't have a whole lot of followers anyway. So I just I moved the button down I just ah the whole you know Nazi thing put a icky taste in my mouth but part of me was like you know what? I ain't leaving I'm tired of running.

58:05.93

Brian Keene

Um, if it.

58:07.14

Bob Pastorella

You know and it's like well Bob you love twitter well I left Twitter because it was on. It was unusable on most browsers to have on my computer I literally could not use it I even tried to use the Twitter app and it apparently.

58:14.60

Brian Keene

Yeah, yeah.

58:22.80

Bob Pastorella

I must have got like what they call shadow bond or something like that because my Twitter if you just seen it. You'd be like that ain't Twitter be like yeah, that's that's what my Twitter looks like and so it was ah it was it was royally fucked and I had to search everybody. I could not see anyone I followed so I just like most screw this? Um yeah I'm I'm not going to mess with something like this so I just left it. But ah yeah, ah you know I'm on button down and it's it's honestly substack was so easy.

58:40.57

Brian Keene

Yeah, yeah.

58:59.95

Bob Pastorella

It's so freaking easy to a newsletter I was just amazed. Ah how easy it was ah is just I don't know man I'm I'm tempted to go back actually but you know um I don't know we'll see.

59:13.12

Michael David Wilson

Who we? yeah I mean I as I say I've been looking at substack and yes, obviously you know they they had content where then Nas were being.

59:13.29

Brian Keene

Um, yeah.

59:32.32

Michael David Wilson

Paid would which is not a good thing I said that I don't always state the obvious but given the context let's state that now and I I was you know thinking about that and I I feel that probably every single email newsletter. Um.

59:32.54

Brian Keene

Um, now.

59:37.39

Brian Keene

Yes.

59:51.86

Michael David Wilson

Platform must have like questionable content people who have an email newsletter where we don't agree with their positions where they have objectionable positions I mean they must. So I don't think there is a perfect platform for that and like Brian says if you I mean if you were to run away every time that you see somebody objectionable. You would be nowhere.

01:00:10.48

Brian Keene

No.

01:00:22.70

Michael David Wilson

I Mean you probably couldn't have your book in a bookstore because there'll be some books that you disagree with you can't have your movies on a streaming platform because there'll be some movies on there that you disagree with so everywhere there will be someone that you disagree with and you know. They kind of win if you disappear and then you know your opinion your work is not out there at all.

01:00:49.55

Brian Keene

Well, exactly and and I want to clarify just because I don't want people picking apart. What I said you know if if you're a marginalized person you got to go where you feel safe I always think of my stepdaughter my stepdaughter Ada she's trans. Um. And all I want for her is is environments where she feels safe where she feels like she belongs where she feels accepted. Um, you know if she if if she doesn't feel that way about a place. Then you know I want to get her out of there. Um, so you know if you're from a marginalized community and let's say Twitter. For example, you know you just you you you feel besieged on there.

01:01:41.61

Brian Keene

No one's judging you no one's saying well you you can't leave Twitter you know I we talk about privilege straight middle ways white guy who can you know I may be slower by still whoop. Yes, ah you I'm I'm choosing. To plant my feet there and not budge. But I'm not judging anybody else that that leaves you know like Bob you know you you you said fuck this and left I'm not judging you for that. You know that that's we we can't make decisions based on. What we think everyone else in our industry wants us to do we at the end of the day you have to make decisions based on what's best for you and what's best for your loved ones? you know, including things as trivial is which newsletter platform you use.

01:02:18.63

Bob Pastorella

And. Shift o.

01:02:30.26

Michael David Wilson

Right? Yeah, yeah, and I mean this is exactly why I don't post like my instant reaction on social media because what you're kind of getting now is my.

01:02:31.60

Bob Pastorella

Yeah.

01:02:48.99

Michael David Wilson

Unfiltered trying to even work out What I think about the whole issue. It's like you know in terms of me I'm trying to put out positive content I'm trying to put out things that in some way are going to make people's lives a little bit more. Enjoyable and so I I Just don't see much of a connection between what I'm doing and what another user who is doing the opposite is doing in the same way that if I go to a theme Park. Or somebody's probably bought a ticket who you know I don't support their views at all. This is exactly why I don't write on social media or what I'm thinking at the time it's coming out very sloppily and clumsily. But I mean I think we're all good people trying to do good things and sometimes we get it wrong and then we have to apologize and hold our hands up and admit that but what we're not doing is ah obvious things like ah sending our book out to minors and asking them to get naked so you know.

01:03:57.83

Brian Keene

Yeah, fuck that guy just so just we'd be clear for the audience. Fuck that guy.