TIH 555: Dean Koontz on The Bad Weather Friend, Tragedy and Comedy, and Craggles

This is the transcript for the video version. Add around three minutes and twenty seconds to the timestamps for this audio version.

Michael David Wilson

Dean Welcome back to this is horror podcast.

00:03.37

Dean Koontz

Well thanks for having me back I thought I had worn out my welcome but here I am.

00:08.83

Michael David Wilson

It's the third in the trilogy. So we're excited to see what happens here and as per the previous time I want to know what the biggest changes have been for you in the last seven months since we spoke.

00:27.97

Dean Koontz

Ah, nothing much ever changes here but I'm writing and always doing the same thing. So not much has changed I've got 2 books in inventory waiting to be published and a new one out and there you go. It's a boring life here I live inside my head not anywhere else.

00:59.72

Michael David Wilson

And I mean your latest book. The bad weather friend. It came out literally ah a few weeks ago I believe I mean it was out earlier for people. Who were part of the Amazon Book Club I believe but in terms of the wider release it is now out for everyone to buy. Could you give us the elevator pitch just for those who are not familiar with it.

01:24.32

Dean Koontz

Well, it's a story about a fellow named Benny who is basically too nice for his own good and one day his his life falls apart. He loses his job. He loses his fiancee. All of his business contacts won't return his calls and his favorite chair is destroyed and Benny's life looks like it's in ruin and then ah a salvation expert. Let's say shows up to put it back on track.

01:57.25

Michael David Wilson

A salvation expert and we will be talking about that salvation expert imminently but I want to go before the at your story. There is a dedication to Dr Kim Swanson so who is Dr Kim Swanson

02:19.60

Dean Koontz

He's a yeah doctor of mine. Ah, and I developed some aphib from having taken the Covid vaccine. They won't accept that. But every doctor I knows who is smart agrees that it's happening all the time. So I yeah I'm a healthy guy I've never don't have problems and so it's a little terrifying when you suddenly have this problem. It needs addressing and it's related to your heart I've always had problems related to my brain but I deal with those myself and he was just the most astonishing kind and special man and I've never known a doctor to give me his office number his. Home number and his cell phone and it says call any time and it's not just because I'm a little bit of a celebrity I have come to understand he does that with everybody so it seemed that was worth a Book. He solved my problem life went on as if it ever happened. And it's it's better than donating it yet it Well I won't say that I've dedicated about 50 books to my wife. So I think she can get by with having this one not dedicated to her.

03:44.80

Michael David Wilson

There you go and I mean it's yeah so great to have that level of care and unfortunately so unusual really to have a doctor go to that level and I mean that brings us to. This idea of being nice which is central to the book and I mean how much do you think that in reality people are punished for being too nice and. How do we balance being a good person without becoming somebody who can just be a pushover and be taken advantage of.

04:30.55

Dean Koontz

Well, as the salvation expert makes clear to Benny It's great to be nice. We need more of that but don't be so nice. You're a fool and it's finding that balance between them. But. The the original impetus with this book is you're both living in different countries and than I am and as a consequence I don't know if this will resonate or not but in the us these days a great many of us. I would say the vast majority think that the ruling class doesn't give a damn about everybody else and that was what I run out to write a book about about somebody who's a nice guy and gets targeted for no apparently good reason because it happens a lot these days. And and then explore that with the members of the ruling class he encounters and that's sort of where the idea came from and and it's also sort of retelling of the job story and it was. I've got to say a great fund to write I was laughing out loud so often during the writing that it almost didn't seem like work but I'll still take pay for it.

05:54.35

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah I think that's a good idea and I mean it's It's easy to see why this is one of the most fun books that you've written because I mean it. It's such a fun read and is such a comedic read and there's not only jokes but there's breaking of the fourth wall as well. Which went when you first did that I don't Wow you, You're just breaking all of the literary conventions and roles here but it but it works it Not only works but it. Somehow makes it even Better. It just completely fits and complements the tone.

06:37.98

Dean Koontz

When I delivered the book. Well thank you first. But when I delivered the book to my publish an editor. Ah I assume that they would come back and say well first thing is you've got to go through and change the this. You can't break the fourth wall and start talking to the reader but to my great surprise. It was one of the things they loved the most and my editor said can you do more of this and so I had to come up with a few places to be able to do more of it without disturbing the story and i. Found I liked it so much and that they liked it so much I've delivered a book now called going home in the dark. Ah and I do it much more than I do in this book and my editor has just given me notes high address. Says this is her favorite book of all the ones we've worked on together. So it's it's just kind of different and it's amazing to me that people like it so much. Ah, but on the other hand I think it makes the book but ah, but the author reader relationship more intimate. Ah. And I'm very glad I dared to do it because it said such a positive response.

07:51.36

Michael David Wilson

So with this also being included in the forthcoming book does that mean that this could be a kind of regular something that you're going to do do again and again I mean I. I imagine too that it would probably depend on the the kind of genre and how it is tonally because I think more more comedic is probably going to work better.

08:17.77

Dean Koontz

As I think so I can't break the fourth wall and say as as the villain here has done I have killed people also and that would be a bad use of breaking the fourth wall. So it tends to be comic novels. And I think it works in and going home in the dark is ah not to jump ahead 2 years but it's a story of 4 friends who were nerves in a high school and only so kind of and had bad families and only survived because they had each other. And they called themselves the 4 amigos and now they're 35 and some are all sort of successful 3 have left ones at home and then something bad happens in this small town and they all have to get together again and it's a little spooky but it's also. Comedic and it gave me a lot of opportunity just to step in and out of the story then I have another one called the forest of lost souls and you might know from that title. It wouldn't allow a self of a Fourth wallbreak.

09:30.40

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, well last time you said that you hadn't killed anyone now you're hinting that perhaps you have...

09:36.48

Dean Koontz

No I'm not hinting. Yeah, you made me laugh for days afterward with that comment you made.

09:47.80

Michael David Wilson

The forest of lost souls. It doesn't sound like a laugh a minute type of book. But I mean we've spoken. Specifically to to talk about 3 different releases and each time we get something that's completely different or almost completely different. There's always struggle against power that's going to be a concern.A kind of hatred for Authority but in terms of the ascetic and the genre I mean that they're just very very different and is is the forest of lost Souls is that the next one coming.

10:34.79

Dean Koontz

Ah, yes, it's the next one after this and it's ah it's I won't go into what it is. It's a little too early to talk about it. but but yeah delivering a different book still within the same sort of author. Voice has always been what I did and publishers have often absolutely hated it I probably talked about that before and I've had struggles less than months when I was told this can't be published. It will destroy your career.

11:10.66

Dean Koontz

And I'm not one who wants to destroy his career. So I Always listen to that but it never has actually happened and my current publisher seems to flow really well with something new and different. So it's. I Had to wait until I was this advanced age to find that but it's kind of glorious right now.

11:33.49

Michael David Wilson

Yeah I'm wondering with such yeah, a breath of work within like ah all genres I I Wonder if it is because you know of your proven track record or I wonder if publishers in general are. Allowing authors to branch out more I I don't know if that's something you can easily comment on being that you are only yourself rather than a multitude of Authors. It.

12:02.19

Dean Koontz

Ah, well as far as you know I am a multiple personality. Ah so I may be living 6 lives and you only know about one but I'm not confirming that I'm only saying it's a possibility and.

12:19.68

Dean Koontz

Ah, yeah, I'm not so sure I think it's still a hard deal for a lot of writers to move ah up and down the scale into different areas. Ah when I first started just simply mixing genres. Which was a long long time Ago. Nobody was doing it and publishers just had no patience for it all? Ah, but now that part is not Uncommon. You get these what they now call Mashups sometimes and.

12:54.33

Dean Koontz

And not.. There's never an objection to that. But I think even if you're doing Mashups they want you probably to do the same mashup every time there's something about marketing folks who are among the saints of the planet of Course. Ah. But also that they don't want the parameters to change too much because they have their marketing system all set up for you and they want to not have to make changes so that I've got a place where editorial publishing and marketing are all fine with It. I think is unique. It may be a couple of few others out there get away with it as easily as I'm getting away with it. Although now that I'm bragging about getting away with with you. My publisher will probably put a stop to that. But. Yeah I Don't think it's as easy for most people as it's become for me to get away with it.

13:57.21

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, you got to be careful. What you say just Amazon could be listening and we don't know what the consequences will be and you know you you spoke about billionaires and the kind of things that they'll. I love there's a bit that I've taken this quote where you're talking about evil billionaires now I'm not I'm not say saying Amazon is an evil billionaire that is ah a company anyway, not an individual but it says in the book. They're people who can't let anything be as it is no matter how good the thing is it's never good enough for them. Everything they look upon seems even not quite right or wrong and they're convinced. They know how to fix it. Most of the time they utterly destroy it before rebuilding something less good from the rubble and as soon as I read that I thought well you could apply that to to many instances and many situations in my kind of pop culture and we've. Billionaires right now even to the point where I don't need to name a specific one because it could apply to you know about 10 or 20 but it was yeah so precise.

15:23.00

Dean Koontz

Well, ah I've never had iron fist of Mr. Bezos come down on me so I don't think he's particularly concerned about anything I write but not that I know him or anything but ah, but there is a sudden.

15:41.19

Dean Koontz

That's theme is we're living in a time where wealth is accumulated in fewer hands and I think any time in history and it's it's interesting I mean I don't care how wealthy you are. You're still human and we all screw up. It's It's the it's the nature of humanity and humankind to screw up but it gets more dangerous when somebody has the wherewithal to screw up in a very big way and that's sort of what's run through with. Then he in his situation.

16:20.41

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, and you've said before that there's an even larger class division now than there was when you were growing up So I'm wondering What do you attribute this to and do you think. As a society does anything we can do about it. Do you think this is going to keep widening or is there going to come a point where actually it goes back the other way.

16:50.85

Dean Koontz

Well I'm heartened to see that there is ah some reaction. Ah, not just here but all over the world against being told what to do by people who don't know your business. Like all these protests of farmers in Europe right now being told how to grow a crop and what to do and what not to do by people who've never grown the crop and finally farmers say wait a minute just because you've ended up in this position of authority. Doesn't mean you're a farmer and it's surprising to me how long it's taken so many people and so many professions to say it isn't a matter left or right it's a matter of class and in certain people in the upper up or elite class. Are determined that they know better. But ah I'm heartened to see a turnaround than that I think it will take quite a long time because it's taken a long time to get here. But I think in the course of it. You'll see a lot of things that are now important to people advancing. For instance in this country. What university went through is rapidly turning out to be not a plus but a minus when some of these university presidents turn out to be pushing anti-semitism and can't acknowledge it. It's ah.

18:19.15

Dean Koontz

Just opened the window to a lot of people where they thought a lot of thought and and responsibility was could be found is absolutely not the place to find it and as people wake up I think this could all change i. Don't expect to live long enough to see the end result but everything in newman affairs swings on a pendulum essentially and I I would hope just mind I think it's a great material like for this book or for others that this is happening in society. And almost nobody comments about it in a significant way and it's a great comic material because you're dealing with I I will just say one billionaire used to be mayor of New York his biggest thing for 2 years was trying to tell people. What size ah soft drink. They could buy. It could be no more than twelve ounces and sixteen ounce had to be outlawed and he spent fortunes on making that happen and you think I've got some better things. You could be doing with that money. Ah. So it's it's a interesting fascinating stuff and it it gives you material that is a writer I think is is really wonderful stuff to have that sounds like I'm saying I love it when society begins to collapse because I have more to write about. But that is not exactly how I mean it.

19:54.41

Michael David Wilson

No no think I understand your intention there and yeah, the soft drinks thing is utterly bizarre and kind of as bizarre as trying to regulate the shape of a banana which was something that happened in the UK a few years ago.

20:14.88

Dean Koontz

Are you kidding I have to hear about that one day. Yeah.

20:20.20

Michael David Wilson

Yeah I'll have to send you some articles to show you what I'm talking about here put some links in the show notes for people too.

20:33.20

Bob Pastorella

I remember reading something that William Goldman said ah screenwriter years ago that basically dealing with hollywood and the elites in there that no one knows. What they're doing at all and I think what's happened now is we have you know these very very rich people who have taken that statement and and made it a feature. Not a bug that they've said hey no one knows what they're doing. I've got enough money to sway people in my direction. So Even though I don't know what I'm doing I'm going to make these things happen. It's like they're saying the quiet part out loud and there there needs to be more. People who are are experts who who know what they're doing in positions of leadership. So I mean I don't I don't know how how it's going to end up but that that's to me that that is what needs to happen in society.

21:40.55

Dean Koontz

Well no, we're not but I have to back up and saying you mentioned William Goldman I absolutely love his novels. He wrote some fantastic novels and was a singular talent. He wrote a book called the color of light that is ah, an unbelievable novel about the mistake of listening to what what writing courses tell you write only what you know and the lead character of this novel. Makes the great mistake of only being able to write about what he knows and where this leads in is he doesn't realize you can research things you can learn about things he takes it. You have to live your life in such a way to provide material. And it's pretty darkly funny novel. But yeah, and as for and Goldman said nobody knows anything and nobody knows what they're doing or what works and in hollywood that's certainly the case. Ah, but it's also the case in a great many areas of society when you start thinking about it. Ah, it's kind of amazing that humanity has come this far and it bumbles through but we have thousands of ears. So I'm confident. We'll bumble through another thousand. Maybe I just hope it's not another 2.

23:23.47

Michael David Wilson

And I want to shift back to what comes out of the box in the bad weather friends. So I mean I I'm assuming we can talk a little bit about that as as many questions. So we've got a craggle that turns out now. How would you define a craggle or would you just not decide to define a craggle.

23:54.22

Dean Koontz

I well I don't usually go into what I would call fantasy I sometimes bring science fiction into it I've certainly brought horror in into it. No nothing but rarely fantasy which to my mind was you know. I may like to read it but I just didn't understand writing it but spike the craggle is a figure of fantasy supernatural creature. Ah, and you're not going to have any scientific explanation for his existence. But. When Benny his whole life falls apart at the same time he gets this ah little video card from an uncle. He didn't even know he had saying I'm sending you an inheritance and it's coming and there's no reason to be afraid. There is no reason to be afraid it may take you a long time to figure that out. But there's no reason to be afraid so when the inheritance arrives. It's a giant crate about nine feet long and four foot wide and three feet deep and in the crate is. Like the cranle and just spike has been around for 1800 years he may not be the oldest craggle in the cran of them. But ah, his job is to deal with people who are just too nice, but the world needs some people who are too nice.

25:28.63

Dean Koontz

And it's his job when the bad people come along to wreck their lives. The lives of the nice people spike shows up and straightens it all out but his methods of straightening it outer shall we say pretty intimidating.

25:44.98

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, and I like that he's seven foot because certainly imposing enough that you're presumably not going to try and mess with spike but also not so told that you would. Absolutely assume this is a supernatural entity. So yeah, you could confuse him for a human. In fact.

26:05.61

Dean Koontz

Ah, he has the ability look leium and at certain times. But yeah, he had has to pass for one of us. My film agent is suggested people to play spike and I've thrown a few names in.

26:25.58

Dean Koontz

But when they talk about it in hollywood or at least my asian ah, it's been interesting and I I've had my head come around to this point of view. It doesn't have to be played by somebody who's very tall and muscular. It has to be paid by somebody who that could be incredibly intimidating and my agent said what would you think of Jack Black and I said almost at once? Oh yeah, he could be totally intimidating ah and somebody like ah we never going to get Jack Black or but Joe Pesci remember Joe Pesci out of good fellowas the most intimidating character you can imagine and he's about five foot six so yeah it's all about how an actor would play it and he would still have these little tricks he can do which are pretty intimidating. So yeah I fell love with spike I sort of fell in love with this whole cast and and spike's desire to have a cat is very endearing I think.

27:34.73

Michael David Wilson

Like Jack Black is so it's so different from how I imagined spike in the book. But it also completely works. It's like you know Jack Black's command his. Presence is a way of talking is a seven foot way is like yes seven foot of personality right there and.

27:55.68

Dean Koontz

First and. Yeah I was surprised when she mentioned it and then after I thought the ballot it preferd a little bitup was like well it makes perfect sense. So that's why I don't cast movies I I would go for the obvious of Dwayne Johnson who is six five and built like cat. Yeah, but it isn't really necessary and yet it could be depends on the actor and the personality they project not that I think this will get made as a film but you never know.

28:34.40

Michael David Wilson

Well, we keep our fingers crossed that it does and yeah like I kind of want it to be made as a film now 3 different times just to see Joe pesci Jack Black and Dwayne the rock Johnson because they would be completely different movies but they all work in just these different ways.

28:59.89

Dean Koontz

It's I've had a number of movies made where the casting was about as dumb as you can get so I ah kind of react when I hear unusual casting that actually is very smart So of it. Slice change.

29:18.50

Michael David Wilson

Ah, well I mean off air we were briefly talking about the idea if we were to have a cragg or so I mean would would you like to have a craggle at what point in your life. Do you think. It would have been best to have had a craggle and then finally because we've gone in this bizarre direction if your craggle could be more like Jack Black more like Joe Pesci you're more like.

29:51.77

Michael David Wilson

Dwayne Johnson which variety of craggle would you choose.

29:53.18

Dean Koontz

Well I'll get back to that. But yeah, as soon as you've said that what period in my life would that well it would have been nice very young when I lived in a bad house with my father for a cran over to take care of him. But that's not what I would choose now that I've got to this point where I could have really used a craggle to straighten me out and to get my career on track was ah my third agent who ended up selling me out to. My first major publisher and ah took terms below anything. Anyone else would have received and all and I had no knowledge that she pretty much had stolen money from me and I love this person. Ah. And I thought she was great and I'm sure spike the craggle would have straightened me out at that time and that would have been a crucial show time in my career. But yeah, if I had I would just take a craggle right now in any form it could be Joe Pesche could be Vince Swan Vince Swan be a very good craggle and in any format right now if I could have a craggle. He wouldn't have that much to do to keep my life on track.

31:21.20

Dean Koontz

But I could come up with things for him to do. It would be very entertaining.

31:25.67

Michael David Wilson

Yeah I guess if you've got Vince Vaughan as well. You've got both the humor and the size I feel just yeah because one hopes that there's not too much going on in their life that is going to mean that the crackle needs to come into play so you might as well.

31:43.34

Michael David Wilson

Have a crackle with some jokes and a good personality.

31:46.72

Dean Koontz

Yeah, spike is amusing and that's a good thing with with an enforcer.

31:55.58

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah I think so and I mean another kind of element is the better kind. So what is the origin story there I mean.

32:15.32

Michael David Wilson

Again, like we were saying before fields very much based in reality one could imagine the better kind to exist. In fact.

32:23.60

Dean Koontz

Well, the better kind or a number that these elites of very great wealth and very powerful positions who if this developed some algorithm to identify people. Who are going to by their personality and their influence on others eventually put a disturbance into the into the river of plans that these people have and they do believe they're a better kind. They're a better kind of humanity. They have a smarter kind of humanity and and they have this little club that calls themselves a better kind and I think one of the great things. That's so much fun with spike is he kind of. Opens them to the idea that they really aren't and with what he's able to do with them. Ah, and so yeah, that sort of comes out of the headlines. We're dealing with we have so much ego in the world ah of the elites today. Where they don't think they need to ask what it would you like to see happen I think they can tell you what will happen and you will like it and I don't see humankind dealing with that too long I don't know if I have been answered your question. But.

33:53.75

Dean Koontz

It's It's always fun in fiction to have some group of people who I think they're very exalted and then come crashing down I think we all like that That's something that maybe it's seeing them in fault to want to see the hyam mighting brought down. But I think it's more of. Preservation Instinct and it is a fault of humanity.

34:19.31

Michael David Wilson

And yeah, and I think as we were saying before as Well. There's a greater awareness these days of the corruption of power and there are people becoming wise to these entities and not standing for it. So. In some form.. Hopefully we're seeing a shift I mean we're not going to see such a shift that these entities and these conglomerations will never exist. But I think the awareness and the fight back is important just for. Our own humanity. Really.

34:56.65

Dean Koontz

Yeah, freedom is important for the advancement of civilization. Ah, and when you don't have it everything stagnates and therefore we need to rest for the Freedom. We have. Certainly in most of the west enjoyed for most of our lives so to see that fade away is a kind of awful thing. But I don't think it will fade away. It will go with if it goes it will be less than a fade away. It will be an unpleasant. Thing but losing it all together will be the biggest unpleasant thing.

35:36.35

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah, and you mentioned before the story of job and indeed you've also said that yeah that there are many moments not just in your own life but in any life where they. They are tragic. But then when you look back on Them. You can see some humor. You can see almost some comedy to them. So I'm wondering. Are there any job moments for want of better phrasing that spring to mind in terms of your own life.

36:13.60

Dean Koontz

Um, oh, there's so many of them. It's ah it was one of those revelatory moments in my life I think when I was telling someone about the circumstance. My mother was it. Ah, great person weak all our life because she was Ill but she was a great person and losing her was a terrible thing and she died young I was 23 and she was 53 and.

36:45.88

Dean Koontz

Their our family was dysfunctional on my father's side seriously dysfunctional on my mother's side everybody arguing with everybody else over paying things and not speaking for 3 years and serial sort of soap opera kind of family. Ah and as a consequence some years after my mother died I was telling somebody about her funeral and it turned out. It was hilarious. There were all these stories of absurd relatives doing absurd things and getting into fights with each other and not really honoring the person who had just passed away. It takes time often to look at something that was tragic in your life. And then seeing swirl all around it this human behavior that is just funny. There is. There's been a lot of very dark funny movies I make play on the same realization that almost everything you go with that happens to you. If you wait long enough if you live long enough you can look back on it and laugh and certainly my wife and I do there's there's been a lot of bad things in life but almost all of them are still funny when you look backward from the future or maybe I'm just sick.

38:14.35

Michael David Wilson

And yeah, well I tend to look for the humor in things as well. And yeah, it's difficult to know is this because life is inherently comic or is it because.

38:17.71

Dean Koontz

I know.

38:33.80

Michael David Wilson

You know you can either find it funny or you can just swim in a sea of nihilism and I choose not to go for the latter I mean if I find humor then it makes my life more pleasant. It makes it more enjoyable and. I Think as well. It means that you're then not defeated by the bad things. You don't kind of perpetuate that Cycle. So in many ways. There's a self- preservation to it.

39:02.34

Dean Koontz

Oh absolutely I think it's why I've always gravitated toward funny stuff when I was akin mad magazine and all those equivalents and just looking for what I can laugh at because. It's a light in the darkness basically ah and I I am still that way I gravitate toward something comic more than I do that yetler but you know so and a perfect example of what you're talking about was after I first and it was many years after i. Publishing that I talked in an interview about my father and that you know he was in a psych ward choice and he was diagnosis eventually sociopathic and he was a violent alcoholic and all that and after I talked about it. Ah. I got all these letters from people saying ah I had a childhood like that and I'm fifty and I still can't get past it. Ah and some of these letters were very long and very moving. Ah, but. Why not answer them I would answer simply you're going to have to learn to laugh at it ah and look backward and not look at that that is tragedy as something you survive and when you survive something you can find new humor you can laugh about it and.

40:40.15

Dean Koontz

If you don't then you let the bastard win and you don't want to let the bastard win. Ah and I was surprised I thought this sounds very frivolous in an answer these serious serious stories of their lives. But in reality I got back. Over the years a number later is saying I never thought of it that way you don't want to let the bastard win and then you start to think of it in a different way. So yeah I have ah I don't know my. I am so fortunate my wife has my same sense of humor which tends to be absurd and it's been important in both our lives.

41:28.80

Michael David Wilson

And do you think too that in having a violent alcoholic father and in having quite a tumultuous start for your life in some ways as that kind of set. The threshold high in terms of what you can endure and I mean so often people can get absorbed in pettiness or have disagreements over things that in the grand scheme of it all and not that important. But. When you've been through something so chaotic and so traumatic does it make it kind of harder to offend you and harder to upset you because it's like look try Harder This is what's happened to me, you're gonna have to do a little bit better.

42:17.12

Dean Koontz

Um, that's I hadn't thought of it that way but it is true. Ah for the first few years we're married my wife came out of ah her father was an italian immigrant to this country and. Came with the old world at values and attitudes and was a very Stern man and ger when when we were first married. Be surprised that I didn't take offense at things she thought but I should have taken offense out that people did or said. And it was exactly the if you start taking the fence at everything ah life isn't very pleasant. Ah so yeah I have very some people would say a thick skin. Ah it doesn't and you better when you're a writer because you're going to get some reviews. From people who clearly didn't bother to read the book and disagree with you for some other reason and want to destroy you and you just have that sort of shrug and say move on but you know I think also I referred to my mother's family. Where everybody was constantly in petty warfare with each other and I think that probably had as much to show me boy. This isn't a way to live either. You don't get angry with people in your family because of their politics or because of their religion.

43:49.15

Dean Koontz

Or because they just don't like pork in you do It's that it always amazed me that family members would stop talking to each other because of the disagreement they had over what when you look back On. It was very petty. So. Probably that also influenced me just shrug off a lot of stuff.

44:12.71

Michael David Wilson

Yeah I Certainly relate to that and sometimes I think it was much simpler during childhood when I didn't even really know about politics or all these things and everyone was just we were friends. We were playing in the playground we had. Common Humanity and then as you become an adult.. It's like my goodness life can get a lot more complicated if you let it.

44:40.19

Dean Koontz

Yeah, so simplifying. Your life is a major way to happiness and just just not caring and understanding. What's worth caring about and to care about. Too much things that are not really going to directly affect your own life. It's simply because other people don't agree with you I've lost a lot of acquaintance and aside let say a few people I thought were friends because we got to somewhere where they found out I didn't agree with them. So 1 thing or another about life politics or whatnot. It didn't concern me that we didn't agree but it did concern them and if you go through life thinking you got to make everybody agree with you. You're not going to have a happy life because so. They're not going to agree with you unless you're Stalin and you can put a gun in their head and and then they still want to grae with you.

45:44.75

Michael David Wilson

And yeah, I tend to find that when there's something that I disagree with with someone I tried to you know have a conversation. Let's talk about it and let's find out what we both think and the more that. We question each other the more that we ask if we're doing it in a civil way. We actually find that we have more in common than we perhaps thought we did and you know I I Do believe that the vast majority of people they believe and they do things. Because they think it is the right thing to do because they think it is the best thing to do but it's just we're coming at it from different perspectives and different life experiences. But we're all human.

46:32.82

Dean Koontz

Well, you know if you go back a century or 2 ah go back to the eighteen hundreds. Ah, you wouldn't have found ah the disagreement over so many payday things life was harder. Ah and you might disagree on a few big issues. Ah, but it wouldn't get into arguments about ah you know the things that we do today or you watch people get in arguments about I think there was more a sense of community as human beings that long ago and now with all it. Tech input that we have social media in particular I think does a lot of damage simply because it encourages people to split apart and then to contest with 1 another and and. They've already admitted that's part of their algorithm because it keeps people excited and and involved well being excited and involved is not necessarily the best thing in the world if you're excited about the wrong things and involved with the wrong people.

47:41.59

Michael David Wilson

Yeah I think when using social media. It's good to have an understanding as to what the algorithm is trying to do and then you can as best as possible use it. You know for yourself so that it doesn't use you to. Use somewhat cliched terms.

48:04.40

Dean Koontz

Yeah, it's ah well that's 1 reason I I do put up social media post I I don't actually put them up I write them and my publisher manages all that and I don't go online. I think I've told you that before because I'm an obsessive personality. So I go on my next thing you know I'm spending all my time trying to find out where Taylor Swift is today.

48:31.47

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah, and a lot of your answers in the Q and a is that you do are very comedic as well. So if people enjoy that then this new book is also one for them.

48:46.16

Dean Koontz

So well, there's no Taylor Swift in it. But I think they may still like it.

48:50.95

Michael David Wilson

yeah yeah I think so and I mean talking about different elements of the book and as you have done before we kind of bounce between different. Time period. So not only are we seeing what's happening in the present with Benny but we get more of an insight into his childhood. We also get the bizarre time at the. Academy and I mean goodness in terms of what happens to people there. First of all, nobody is going to guess what happens? Whatever you're thinking that it's not that and it goes into this almost weird fiction cronenbergian direction and.

49:42.27

Michael David Wilson

Yeah I Absolutely love that you went there but I mean I'm wondering in terms of going between different time periods and different elements. How do you ensure that you do that without detracting from. The kind of present narrative or slowing down the tension because you absolutely do do it successfully.

50:07.95

Dean Koontz

I think it I think it's because I wanted to show. Ah why Benny became who he became but I didn't want to do it in traditional flashbacks or that kind of thing so I thought well just let me start doing scenes. And let me tell the reader by the title of the chapter when it occurs and they won't get confused ah and then start with his death of his father which has got its comic element to it and and then move forward and when I came to the point where. He was going to be sent to this boarding school I almost just started rubbing the hands say I know I've loved a lot of novels that are said in boarding schools and I thought this little closed environment is going to turn out to be very strange I am. Contribute to any and allow you to meet the friends of a period in his life that I had very profound longlasting impact. But when I got into the boarding school I knew something was going on there that had to be. Well maybe it is crime bird but it god it was ah sort of over the top. But ah I had great fun with those scenes and I won't give anything away but many of the times I was laughing the most were in those scenes in the back.

51:40.74

Dean Koontz

And there's a moment where in some solemn supposedly solemn ceremony 3 songs are involved and 1 of them is from Tom Peggy and Heartbreakers and it was just the nature of that song and the title of it. I must laugh for 10 minutes after that and that's when I thought okay this is all kind of working in the strangest way and I do a little that in that book I mentioned going home in the dark I address you but I also. Move back and forward the time these people were nerds in high school together until the present and I'm finding. It's just really works if what happened to them in the past and everything is. Equally as captivating or strange as what happened to them now and they actually 1 grows out of the other.

52:39.55

Michael David Wilson

Well as you mentioned music I have a theory reader every book Now you're trying to get a very catchy sung from the past into our head a kind of earworm because we mentioned.

52:56.20

Michael David Wilson

Before in the Cherry orchard in after death you put a very famous song into our ears. But then again, just it. It is absolutely. Kind of caught me off Guard. You're talking about Latin and then suddenly it has a comparison that puts another song in my head So is this now a trick that you're going to be doing in every single book.

53:23.24

Dean Koontz

Well, it wasn't until you mentioned it and I think it's a pretty good device. So now I probably will do it consciously. Thank you very much.

53:33.40

Michael David Wilson

So there you go listeners who like it. You can be happy that I said that and those that don't you can be infuriated at me so might get some hate mail but you know.

53:48.89

Dean Koontz

That's fun to do.

53:50.60

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, it can be fun. Yeah well talking about male and fans we've got a number of Patreon questions and. For once I'm going to actually ask them now rather than at the hour Mark say oh I've got some Patreon questions so I've been organized this time and we've got one from Brandon who simply wants to know what advice. Would you give to authors who are just starting their careers.

54:25.64

Dean Koontz

Who it's ah I would have to sit down with you for about a month to tell you all the things to look out for so I'll boil it down to this perseverance is as important as talent. Because talent will not always be recognized ah and you have to just stay with it. Ah, if it turns out, you don't have talent. Well, you're just a wasted part of your life but it's ah it's the risk you always have to take. Ah, and if I had not had perseverance I had publisher after publisher agent after agent who would have made me stop or or stop in a direction that turned out to be successful. Ah you you just. Can't expect that everyone you meet in the coerce if you're developing a career is it going to be giving you the best advice so you have to kind of keep a clear head and say I think I know what I'm trying to do and and take good advice but not, it's 1 of the hardest things in life. Ah, is to know what's good advice and what's not when you're starting out in something because you tend to believe the common wisdom of that business is wisdom but it isn't often. It's just common and so I would just say perseverance. You just don't give up.

56:00.28

Dean Koontz

Ah, and if you gave up but in life on anything that it wouldn't be worth living. So it's not that hard to do.

56:07.28

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, have there ever been any moments where you've kind of faltered in your writing career or you've considered giving up and or anything kind of along those lines and if so. What did you do to kind of get back on the path.

56:26.97

Dean Koontz

I've never had the feeling I should stop or that I should listen to what I knew was bad advice just to get that person on my side. Ah, it's it's I'm a little bit bullheaded. And as a consequence I'll just bash my head against a wall and until the wall cracks. Um, and I've I've never thought of so I have an attitude that when somebody tells me as 1 agent did earlier. Oh you always be a mid-est writer. But you'll never be a bestseller and you're trying to write the wrong kind of thing and that just always incenses me it I take the opposite it I take that as encouragement a sort of well I'll show you attitude.

57:19.59

Michael David Wilson

yeah yeah I think we covered before that nobody should tell you what you can't do with the exception of the 10 commandments because you would then try.

57:32.66

Dean Koontz

Yeah, that's that's not really wise you know, ah Murder is never a good thing. So if you're murdering people and you're told to stop then you should listen.

57:34.55

Michael David Wilson

To do exactly what you're being told not to do.

57:48.16

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, or there some people particularly if they've listened to or 3 of these conversations may notice. Well Dean has confirmed a number of times that murder isn't good and he said that he hasn't murdered someone and it is. Is he overcompensating here. Is there something that is going on.

58:08.44

Dean Koontz

Well I had a few do that because of calling me on it The last time when you said oh you did say before you've never killed a child Now you say you've never killed an adult I think that's what you did which I thought was very funny.

58:27.10

Dean Koontz

So yeah I think every time we talk I'll make a confession to have not killed another kind of human being.

58:31.95

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah, well I mean that there might be a conversation where we never mention murder and that will really surprise you know regular listeners but it well it hasn't happened so far but we can see what happens with the next one. But. Given that you said the next book is up there with you know your darker works were. We're probably going to be talking about murder. Well Traci Kenworth would like to know how do you introduce your characters. So quickly and memorably that they snagged the audiences right away and then she's listed a number of characters that she particularly enjoyed including the little boy that everyone thought was the antichrist The Golden Retriever From. Watches and the recent agent who gave up on her husband's suicide and had to go deeper to discover the truth.

59:38.18

Dean Koontz

Ah, again, it's it would take a long time to do. But I think there's 1 thing I can go up back to I am always aware that what what you're gonna remember most about a character. Is if you see in in the early scenes. The character seems a little eccentric has this aspect of his or her character that is amusing or interesting because it seems eccentric. Ah. That is a start of making the character kind of compelling and interesting and I think what every writer should keep in mind is that every single human being is eccentric we all are each in our own way and it's focusing on what that. Way is with that character. What about this character if you were to exaggerate it a little and make it more eccentric would turn it into a comic character and so I'm always looking what about like character is ah something of whoa I wouldn't. Expect them to do that or think that and then you've got a hook in that character that if you maintain that eccentricity makes him interesting. That's the simplest way I can put it.

01:01:05.61

Michael David Wilson

And along similar lines Robert Stahl says how do you skate the line in showing humanity at its best while also showing us what horrible depths we can sink to.

01:01:22.59

Dean Koontz

I Have no idea I I do both how I can love humanity but also recognizes its potential for Evil I Guess it's something because I've experienced Both. Um. Ah, you can flow between them if you make the effort.

01:01:41.91

Michael David Wilson

Okay, well thank you once again for joining us. This has been a tremendous amount of fun as it always is I know that both Bob and I love the bad weather friend and we're very much looking forward to the next book.

01:01:59.28

Dean Koontz

Well thanks, for having me on. It's always one of my fun things to do when I'm doing these zoom interviews with you, you're relaxing. I feel like I'm talking to friends and that makes a big difference.

01:02:01.28

Michael David Wilson

Thank you again.

01:02:14.59

Bob Pastorella

Yes, thank you.

01:02:16.75

Michael David Wilson

Well thank you so much that means a lot and the feeling is definitely mute here. So let's do this again for the next one.

01:02:24.54

Dean Koontz

Sounds good.