TIH 562: Samantha Allen on Patricia Wants to Cuddle, Sasquatches, and Lilly Wachowski

Add about 3 minutes and 20 seconds for the timestamps for the audio version.

00:00.60
Michael David Wilson
So let's talk about Patricia wants to cuddle so to begin with what is the origin story. How did this come about.

00:14.36
Samantha Allen
I mean through brain rinsing I reality tv is also an outlet. So I watch a lot of like the bachelor or Love Island ah recently I'm into the traders. Um. But yeah I sort of grew obsessed with the bachelor for a period of time in the mid to late 2010 s I was really interested in the performance of heterosexuality on the bachelor like. How much work was going into everyone maintaining and up keeping their appearance. Um out of a suitcase while they traveled through the world and at some point I sort of realized well the bachelor and a slasher movie have functionally the same. Structure like they're both elimination style contests where people get sent home or killed 1 by 1 until there's only a final girl remaining like that structurally it's. Ah, perfect parallel but beyond that I think it's sort of occurred to me that like people watch them for similar reasons like you're not watching the bachelor because you want to watch the women hold hands and sing Kumbay ah like.

01:37.42
Samantha Allen
You Want to see people get sent home. You want to see tears and so yeah I think there are a lot of there are a lot of reality show fans who are probably horror fans who don't even know it yet because they get the exact same catharsis out of watching this like. Fairly Emotionally brutal competition that a lot of horror fans do out of watching people get physically maimed or or murdered and yeah, that was kind of the spark of it was just realizing that structural similarity and. Deciding I should probably do something with that.

02:15.71
Michael David Wilson
And so were you a big fan of reality Tv before the bachelor.

02:24.45
Samantha Allen
Um, you know I think ah the bachelor was the gateway. Um I was in a position where I had like rapid ears on my Tv like I you know I'm a

02:41.40
Samantha Allen
Aging millennial but I'm a young enough millennial that I've never had a cable subscription at any point in my life and so when I had a Tv at home that I played games on I got like a $20 antenna at Target and it got Abc and Abc. Played the bachelor. So yeah I I think I got pulled into it through that I I since I had a survivor phase as well. I probably binged like 6 or so. Seasons of survivor between projects at 1 point. But um, yeah, there was something uniquely transfixing about the bachelor to me I sort of explain it to people like it's like the converse of a drag show. You know like if people are going. To drag shows to see queer people perform hyper femininity to a pirodic extent. The bachelor is almost. Straight women themselves performing hyper femininity to this comedic degree like there was something about what was in the water with the peak of the bachelor's popularity and the like skyrocketing rise of Instagram.

04:09.16
Samantha Allen
Was a little harrowing but also deeply fascinating to me of people feeling like they needed to appear as put together and glamorous as if they were on television just like in their daily lives. Like to be able to take a selfie you know like that was harrowing to me I feel like we went from a period where people were allowed to have normal faces in normal volumes of hair to like. Very quickly this dystopia where it was like no your hair volume needs to be enhanced with extensions and your face needs to be contoured like literally taking techniques from drag queens and making it sort of like a prerequisite to be. Perceived as a as like a woman in public. You know it was like oh why are we just rapidly escalating the bar. Um I think we're seeing this now with like not to get on too much of a tangent but with like expectations for like. Cisgender men's like gendered performance and appearance like in public and online I'm like okay do we all have to become like like anime character versions of ourselves in real life. Can't we just go back to the 90 s like.

05:40.68
Samantha Allen
Weren't those body pressures bad enough when people could still kind of look normal but feel bad about it Now we have to like yeah so that was what was sort of amazing and horrifying to me about the bachelor all at once.

05:54.96
Michael David Wilson
And how do you think that throughout the life of the bachelor. It has evolved. Do you think that it is lent into being more honest as to what it is because of course to begin with it would. Purport to be about finding love. But as you you know, highlight within Patricia wants to cuddle. It is not really about that at all, it's about fame. It's about getting rich. It's about. Validating yourself through the social media machine and do you think real life reality Tv is being more honest in terms of what it is.

06:41.14
Samantha Allen
I think we're at a point where the only successful reality tv format can be 1 that incorporates that meta aspect or the fact that people want fame and money through them into the show itself. Why I have fun with something like the traders right now because it's just like it's a game you know or why I think survivor has lasted for like 40 seasons because it's just like well it's a sport. they all want um they all want the million dollars you know like um but the dating shows. You know they can have maybe a first couple of seasons where they've managed to rope on. You know some people who are like maybe this will be an interesting way to meet somebody. Um, certainly like the social media machine wasn't what it was like. Today as like when the bachelor premiered in I think 2003? Um, but once it gets going and once it kind of develops its own steam the allure of that is impossible to resist and when you listen to contestants. Talk about their experience. Candidly you know once all the paperwork and the and ndas have expired or whatever most of them tend to be pretty honest that like what they wanted out of appearing on the show was a boost to social media following or to be able to work with brands or you know.

08:13.22
Samantha Allen
To boost some other project or aspiration that they had and I don't necessarily shame that I mean we're all kind of trying to do what we can with the ingredients we have available to us but it does make watching it fascinating because it has that. Um. Tell me if I'm pronouncing this right that like k fabe quality of professional wrestling where everybody knows that it's orchestrated but they can't say it out loud like that would be that would be the death of it like that would instantly undermine. It. Um, so I find that tension very fascinating and interesting like everyone kind of knowing what they want um but not being able to say it out loud. You know it's like straight the street version of being in the closet. You. You can't admit that you want Instagram followers.

09:08.37
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and for you personally and for society as a whole What do you think are some of the joys and what do you think are some of the problems of reality Tv.

09:26.91
Samantha Allen
I mean it's it's a mirror like it shows the best and the worst of us. Um, you know I think I alluded to 1 problem earlier which is I think reality tv is. Conscripting normal people to appear on television. But then those normal people are in turn like you know, getting all sorts of like cosmetic procedures to like look like hollywood actors when they're just like dental hygienists from Minnesota and I'm like that. To me like I'm sorry but that feels evil of like we're all setting this like hyper exaggerated expectation for what our faces and physiques have to look like I like I'm too old to. Yeah, want to keep up with any of that and I think it it probably is doing bad things to the generation growing up primarily seeing other human faces through screens and filters um got to be inducing tremendous like body dysmorphia. Ah. In people. Um at increasingly younger ages. So yeah I sort of place place some of the blame for that squarely on like reality television. Um I do though think that like it has social.

10:53.70
Samantha Allen
Value like I think it provides a safe and digestible forum for people to talk about difficult social issues because it's. Largely divorced from the realm of like politics you know. So when there's like a scandal around the fact that like a show like the bachelor like historically did not cast very many contestants of color like it. You know I'm not saying it's worth it to create this discussion. But I'm saying the fact that it is a television show allows people to like talk about an issue like race divorced from like who are you going to vote for in November it's like what do you think about the cast of this show like shouldn't it shouldn't it look more like. The United States of America looks and you know what's the downside of not having a wider swath of experiences on the show and what does it mean when we do see diverse experiences on the show. Um, yeah, it. It's.

12:05.35
Samantha Allen
It's like a water cooler in a water cooler list Society I suppose like women especially like we love to just chat about like what reality show are you watching you know and then you can be having a conversation about like you know like. Representation of like deafness or disability because of like a reality show. You know which is maybe not a conversation you would have just like unprompted. Um, So yeah I think it can do good things. Um I Also think that like you know. The fact that it's a visual medium is probably not great for Us. We should have reality show radio plays those would be super popular.

12:55.42
Bob Pastorella
So do you feel that looking at it from ah, a negative aspect that reality Tv reality shows ah are is putting celebrity worship and into a realm of of the unrealistic. Ah, to me I just I feel like that we're we're just a few you know a few steps removed from antiviral you know Brandon Kronnbergs movie where it's like you know they don't want to look like them. They want to be sick like them or they want to you know? So that's to me I see that that's a danger. Do you think that there's that we. Or getting to the point where it can go too far.

13:31.66
Samantha Allen
Yeah I mean you know there's this like playful phrase of like main character syndrome that I think is very synonymous with like a reality Tv era like everyone is like I am a hero I have a story and that story like should be.

13:50.96
Samantha Allen
Nationally broadcast to everyone or broadcast from my phone to everyone on the planet and I'm not saying people aren't meaningful and people don't have stories that they need to share I mean you know I I write Memoir I would be a tremendous hypocrite to say people shouldn't do that. But I think that like. We need to eventually arrive at the humility of accepting that like we are in this big herd of a billion. Ah 6 how many billion people on the planet now. It's not 6 it was 6 when I was growing up right? It's probably like 8 or 9 now. Yeah and I mean you know it's easier to do as you get older, especially but I do kind of worry that reality media reality shows.

14:27.14
Bob Pastorella
I think it's closer to 9 now.

14:44.40
Samantha Allen
And social media and conjunction are kind of training us all to see ourselves as protagonists. Um, and as I get older I'm I'm more like I don't want to write any more memoir and my writing grows increasingly. Weird and it it becomes about alienation or anonymity because I I think like you know that's that's the wake up call that I think a lot of people raised only in that error going to have you know like I remember a time before it and I remember a time after it. And ah in my late thirty s I'm probably like the last generation that still has that experience of like I remember before we were carrying computers in our pockets and and I remember now when I have a computer in my pocket at all times. Um. Yeah I think that like you know, not to get too grandma about it. But when you see the poll. That's like you know some astronomical percentage of generation Alpha like wants to be a youtuber when they grow up or something I'm like oh that's scary to Me. Who's who's going to watch watch your life if everyone else is broadcasting theirs. You know? Um I think there will be yeah, a bit of like ah an awakening there as the Ra ravages of time catch up with us all where you're like well shoot.

16:19.79
Samantha Allen
It turned out like I wasn't the main character of reality after all I am just another you know, semi successful novelist living in a condo eating frozen pizza. You know there, you go like that's.

16:39.24
Samantha Allen
That's how it shook out.

16:39.54
Bob Pastorella
I think that that I think it's natural to feel that we are the heroes of our own story I mean and we we should to some degree feel that way because that we have we're authentic. And it's a way to be authentic and it's a way to present ourselves. Positively um, whereas you know there's I don't think that anyone's woken and there's probably somebody in the world when I says this it's like oh well, it's me who thinks that a villain of the entire world. Um, you know and Tim that's that's an extreme but we want to we want to feel good about ourselves and so I'm I'm not I don't get in ri realitying tv but I understand why people do is because they like you said it's a mirror they see they see their. Selves in that and they see a way that they could better themselves. Not I'm all for that and just to me like you. It's very scary, especially when it comes to a worship type thing and then you have people saying you know when I grow up I want to be a Youtuber It's like no, you're you're going to work at Mcdonald's.

17:46.44
Bob Pastorella
So there's like reality is going to slap him upside the face. You know.

17:48.29
Samantha Allen
Yeah, or maybe you could figure out how to be a poet instead of of like being a youtuber you know like maybe maybe you could make something else out of the experiences I mean like to me that's one of the most fascinating contrasts here is like.

17:54.53
Bob Pastorella
Right? right? exactly.

18:07.86
Samantha Allen
I Think you're absolutely right? like social media is about image brandishing like you know I have to participate it in it myself when I'm marketing a book right? like you have to be like I here I am I am good at this I look semi acceptable, um, look at me. I'm the author of my fate I'm the captain of my soul.? Whatever But what is fascinating and rewarding about fiction is you can You can be honest about yourself. Be like you can say like the dark truths that you really think.

18:43.83
Samantha Allen
Because they're they're veiled through the prism of narrative like like you know and I think that's healthy for us I Think that's good for us to be like that's why horror is so important it's like here's all the weird.

19:02.30
Samantha Allen
Antisocial messed up impulses I have like splattered on the screen and and it looks Terrible. You know it's like the opposite impulse of like look at me don't I look so good aren't I So Perfect you know I. This wolf was not a notable person who said this but it was like some so some polite Comedian or celebrity on some podcast I heard ten years ago, but it made a huge impression on me that they were casually like. Whenever someone starts describing themselves with too much confidence like they're almost always lying like whenever someone's like you know I'm just a really chill kind of person like I just like to go with the flow like when you hear that from someone oftentimes. It's like well. You want me to think that about you. It's probably not close to the reality of you and and social media and especially and like the confessional forms of Reality Tv are just endless prompts for us to talk about ourselves and so of course we're going to be is flattering. To ourselves is possible in those Contexts but when you write fiction. You can be Unflattering. You can be like I actually like sometimes feel like I want to Strangle somebody you know like you can you tell on yourself and.

20:32.48
Samantha Allen
That's what's titillating and exciting about it. Um, yeah I wish I wish they wanted to grow up and be horror novelists or horror comedy novelists instead of you know, ah pulling pranks on people and filming them and. So see my mind Tiktok.

20:54.55
Michael David Wilson
And what is your relationship with social media like both as a consumer and a creator.

21:03.49
Samantha Allen
I mean you know it has its dopamine hooks in me as it does in many people but I feel like annoyed by it when you catch yourself scrolling through like an Instagram reel and you're like wait. Did a half an hour just like a lapse and I was looking at these things that are explicitly like gamified and like designed to make me like mad enough that I'll like open the comments section to engage with it to boost it in the algorithm you know I'm like. This is terrible. So when I catch myself I like stop and put it down and I don't post really very much at all anymore like my relationship to that has changed entirely. You know I'll post notable life events. But yeah I mean. I don't know it goes into the cosmic alienating next book I'm writing increasingly I feel an instinct to withdraw that I didn't know is possible. But apparently you can because you know. At a certain age you you just start getting more and more invisible to the world and that is simultaneously sad. But it's also kind of exhilarating to not care anymore. You know.

22:30.25
Samantha Allen
Like when someone tells me about something that people are talking about on Tiktok which I don't have on my phone I've never signed up for Tiktok. That's kind of my like red line I'm like wow like how. How amazing it is that I never have to know any of that. Ah, that's beautiful and I crave more of that feeling as I get older.

22:58.37
Michael David Wilson
Yeah I mean a lot of people particularly with the tumultuous time with social media right now really since Elon Musk bought Twitter and rebranded it. As x I think there's some uncertainty in terms of what will be the prevalent social media platform and I mean as things are getting more and more consuming more and more. Personal particularly with platforms such as Tiktok I'm wondering if we're going to see a kind of reversal in a few years so rather than people looking for their 5 minutes of fame. They'll be looking for their 5 minutes of privacy.

23:49.29
Samantha Allen
Yeah I mean you know there's this like interesting trajectory where like social media there was this almost like pre flash in the pan window where like people built genuine human connections through it. But then you know as like venture capital gets a hold of that you know and it's like well actually I'll make your timeline non chronological because we've determined that that means you spend more time on our website which means we serve you more ads or you know. Like actually we found that you spend more time on our social media site when you're angry. So we're going to serve you content from political pundits that we'd know don't align with your viewpoints right? Like like. It becomes unusable for that purpose right? But like there are people who like met each other on on Tumblr or Reddit or even Twitter and like got married you know, like there was this weird window where that was possible. Um, that. You're right I do feel like we are sort of lurching towards some kind of post social media age and I mean I think part of what's happened is like the platforms have been taken over by people who basically really only want asymmetric engagement.

25:16.44
Samantha Allen
Like everybody is just broadcasting to an imagined audience of a gazillion people instead of like talking to each other. Um and that's not like tenable is a platform you know, like ideally you are trying to recreate the conditions. Ah, the public piazza in in you know Rome? Um, and I don't think you can do that in a monettizable sustainable scalable way and which I think has become clear. Again and again with the failure of each successive platform and so yeah I do kind of wonder what's what's going to happen or what'll fill the vacuum and maybe it's good for us to have a vacuum again like my god wouldn't it be nice to like. End your day and be like I wonder what other people on the planet think about this movie that I saw and to just sit with that and knowing this instead of being able to immediately scroll through yeah a thousand reactions to it.

26:29.66
Michael David Wilson
And yeah I mean I think there was excitement as well when you met up with a friend to discuss a movie or a book that you'd recently read or watched and yeah, you had no idea what the other. Opinion was on it but now because you've almost got this general consensus so it is availability of opinions. It might even be removing some of the joy from you know, actual human interaction in person. So There's quite. A danger of that too and I think you know that there's more people who are becoming socially isolated because there is that that kind of faux function of socialization through the computer but I don't think. You know it might replicate but it doesn't make up for you or it's not a real substitute for at your human connection.

27:33.56
Samantha Allen
Yeah I mean it's it's carbohydrates when you need like a steak you know, um, like for me what I find when I do like withdraw from the online world. Is that it makes the moments of human connection feel more meaningful I'm not an especially extroverted person but it doesn't take a lot of looking at my phone in a day for me to be like I don't want to see someone today that seems exhausting I've already like seen what people from. Ah, you know Indonesia to Los Angeles have to say about dune 2 like why do I need to go hang out with my friend and talk about do you know? Um, yeah you you can fill up really fast on bread. You know, like on your phone. Um, and I'm trying to be better about yeah, not just ah, inhaling the whole bread basket and spoiling my dinner.

28:38.15
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, it's like the it's like the capitalization of the words and the font change it used to be social media and now it's social media and it's all about this. For the exact same reasons that you mentioned with you know the venture capitalist and all that and we need to get it back to Social. You know, maybe change it to social interaction.

29:03.84
Samantha Allen
Yeah I mean the internet itself is becoming like unusable with like Google search declining in quality and like Ai generated content like flooding the internet and then Ai.

29:20.34
Samantha Allen
We'll eventually probably start generating content off of Ai generated content and like it will all just be like you know we're talking like tower of babel level stuff for like our world's like free global information resource. Yeah I mean I don't know.

29:39.36
Samantha Allen
The only value I get out of typing anything into my computer these days it feels like is adding Reddit to the end of any search string I do because I'm like at least for now that still directs me toward like real people who have actually typed something.

29:54.29
Bob Pastorella
Nothing.

29:58.40
Samantha Allen
Who've thought about you know something and and and put it online. Um, yeah, it's I don't know it's interesting and Patricia of course like it grapples with social media in the social media age in those ways it it. The horror in Patricia isn't just a sasquat is maybe going to kill you if you wander too far in the woods. It's like you know we're we're in the system. You know our our. Our faces in our lives are and our identities and our relationships they're all like mediated through Silicon Valley

30:36.55
Bob Pastorella
Relief.

30:42.29
Michael David Wilson
And now talkingken of sasquatches. You said before. Originally there was not going to be a sasquatch in Patricia wants to cut or so I want to know when did that element come into play. And then also to go further back I mean when did you first hear about the sasquatch and tell us a little bit about that interest because I know it goes pretty deep because you've got a podcast beast of Seattle or in which you really go into sasquatches and Bigfoot.

31:24.15
Samantha Allen
Yeah, you know I would say I started getting into it more in an amateurish sort of way when I moved to ah the pacific northwest and 2018 you know you're surrounded by it here in Seattle like. Sasquatches everywhere you know there's Sasquatch coffee spots and sasquatch t-shirts and sasquatch bumper stickers everywhere. It's you know it's our local tradition to like believe in this hairy ape creature in the woods. I think it's like a fun ironic jesting belief for for most people but you will occasionally like talk to people as I did for for that podcast who have had what they feel are genuine sightings or experiences or brushes in the woods and when you spend time. Out here among these big fir trees. It's very easy to imagine something like that. You know you have these vast expanses of forest land. You know it's it's nice to think that there might be something out there. We haven't. Um, discovered or experienced yet. So yeah I mean originally I was thinking that the um the troublemaker and ah the slasher reality Tv concept novel I had would be some.

32:53.60
Samantha Allen
Some pastor current contestant or maybe a former el lead or something and I think I needed the book to have more of it kind of a figurative or a metaphorical punch and Patricia the sasquatch kind of ended up serving that function. You know to tie into like what we're speaking about earlier like a sasquatch like a female Sasquatch is sort of everything like a 22 year old appearing on the bachelor is terrified of looking like you know, big unwieldy hairy. Um. Ugly by human standards right? So I loved that juxtaposition of like you know you are Dyson air wrappping your hair to perfection and you know doing like makeup worthy of a news anchor like every morning. And you are terrified of this creature that sort of represents like your worst fears of of how you might be perceived one day.

34:04.98
Michael David Wilson
And throughout the book I mean it is an examination as to what is and isn't a monster and how we have misconceptions and I mean how. Does one even go about defining a monster in the first place.

34:29.19
Samantha Allen
You know I find the history of like queerness in monsters deeply fascinating. It's interlinked from the very foundations of horror from like Mary Shelley's like Frankenstein on. Um. You know, like often in pre hays code horror movies especially like the monster is the vehicle for expressing or displaying queerness and sometimes that can be done in a moralistic or condemnatory way. That's the history of like much horror is oh the queer monster is punished like the monster defies or threatens the human order and at the end we destroy it. But I think for that reason like queer audiences who have. Long gravitated to horror as a genre have like typically identified or sympathized with the monster. Um, and so I think more recently as you're seeing more lgbtq creators. Kind of being able to take the reins and macor ourselves instead of just being like avid consumers who recontextualize it in our minds like we're getting to create stories where the monsters are more complicated and they have.

35:57.98
Samantha Allen
They represent queerness but they are maybe not punished or maybe humans come to sympathize with or understand the monsters. You know like I think you can see it even in something like I would Mark something like the shape of water is like a real. Ah. Public mainstream example of that turn from oh. We're not going to like kill the monster we're going to actually like love the monster because it's persecuted and like root for a future in which the fish man wins. You know. Um, and yeah Patricia is sort of like participating in that that tradition a you know queer reclamation of the monster of saying hey maybe maybe the monster. Maybe the monster was right. Maybe maybe there's something about Dracula's way of living in the world that actually makes more sense than like you know, being mortal like sped giving in to like what I think you know was often sometimes presented to audiences is like. Look how horrific this excess of desire or this like you know horrific appearance. So this differently gendered creature like um to kind of take those and cherish them instead of rejecting them.

37:29.78
Bob Pastorella
Yeah I felt that reading it then and I have to admit this is not a book that I would have sought out to read. Um, but Michael suggested it to me and I ah thoroughly enjoyed it. Ah because they're There's so many layers and I get I feel that exactly what you were talking about. It is is work is is warmed its way through the entire narrative in in so many different ways. Um I love how it it it basically skewers celebrity.

38:07.49
Bob Pastorella
You know celebrities celebrityism that kind of worship. Ah, but at the same time you actually kind of care for these for these people in in a way. Um, and you start to you know ah have a feeling each each character has a own distinct voice which I which I Loved. Um, they they had their own distinct personalities and um, there was ah increasing levels of ah the the good old ultraviolence occasionally and I was like oh yes, yes, and so there's but it's it's not it that. That's not even on the surface. There's There's layers there and so it is very very brilliant. Ah, you've got a fan in me I promise you that because like I said this is if I was if I had seen that book at a bookstore I would have been Oh I'm in the wrong section. Because it's it's romance and I typically don't don't read that. Um I read horror read thrillers read crime I've recently got in espionage. Um, which is weird. But anyway yeah, you know, but also reading occasionally do read y a but I tend to to to not. Read romance because it's just it's just not.. It's not a genre that I've ever really interacted with and so you you kind of brought me into and kind of open up the door there I was like I might need to check out more of this. Ah, especially if there's got some of that good old ultra balance in it. You know, ah that was I was pretty damn cool.

39:40.61
Bob Pastorella
It's very nuanced and layered and ah I like that it's brilliant.

39:45.93
Samantha Allen
I'm glad it found its weight here because like I love being of the blend genre like that you know like I was very nervous about writing it because you know like I knew for one like I wanted it to reach readers like you like like. Ah, Horror 3 layer readers but I knew that because of like the reality show element and the love letters and things like that it might like need a little bit of pushing to get into like your hands and at the same time. The readers who would naturally gravitate toward it. I was worried they would get to like dismemberment and be like what am I doing here? Um, but to me that's what was always compelling about being able to write it is like you know for one I like I Love gore like I Love. I Love eighty s Slashys with practical effects where you see people's dads and arms and stuff get chopped off like I love before the Mpa like crack down on it. You know? um, ah but it also like it wasn't just gore for the sake of core just like I think.

40:59.57
Samantha Allen
You know gore in 80 s horror movies is more complicated than people give it credit for like it was serving a function as well. Like the you know people get torn apart physically the way that we tear apart like the the people that we watch on our screens. You know so. Um, like the the violence is in the service of something and and so for me yeah I I had to have it and like there were a few moments where I was like should I do the pg 13 version of this should I like just have you know.

41:23.96
Bob Pastorella
It's earned.

41:38.70
Samantha Allen
Someone get their head knocked against Iraq and we fade to black and to me like it wouldn't be the same book or have the same message or the same power if it didn't kind of go there.

41:47.81
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, and that's I call that that's that's fearless writing. That's if you if you can get into that where you you're not afraid to put it on the page or afraid of how people are gonna react to it that. To me is that that's cutting edge. That's that's where it needs to be instead of being you know some generic stuff that you won't won't remember in two weeks you know this book is going to stick with me forever because it was like shit this is.

42:23.74
Bob Pastorella
Actually pretty good. You know it's like it is a lot It's a lot when I started reading it I can tell when something's good usually within like the first couple pages and ah and and so I was like oh well this this is this is going to be really good. This is this is going to be really good. And then it got some of that violence in the gore and I was like oh yeah, yeah, you know and there's a mystery in there and all that and then you're skeing people that I I consider flaky and so like yeah yeah, yeah, like this this is killer you know, excellent I'm sorry.

42:54.57
Samantha Allen
I I love that fearless writing Sorry I'm excited I'm gonna I'm gonna that's gonna live with me fearless writing I won't say I felt fearless I felt very fearful doing it. But I do think I was at that place of like.

43:13.94
Samantha Allen
Like screw it like I've got to I've got to be me and I've got to like do what feels right? and there is a chance this could land with a reader and people would be like what is this and I sort of had to take that risk I mean. I think you see that like I think I think even now it it struggles from being like cross genre in the way that it is because like I think you are trained to like. The the violence and the structure of how that works of like oh the the people die and then like the book is over and like that's that's the point is like we're here to build up to these big moments of brutal gore. And then I think for readers who were coming to it kind of saying okay I'll put up with the violent elements to get to the satire that I like um, a lot of those readers I noticed came away being like I wanted another 100 pages to like.

44:23.84
Samantha Allen
Find out how everything went down on the island and to me that's anathema to like my horror storytelling instincts I'm like no after the people die you go home like you know we don't stick around on the wicker man island for 30 minutes and like.

44:43.42
Samantha Allen
Watch them clean up the ashes. You know like he's going up in flames there you go.

44:52.00
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, that would probably be very boring and cold and it's like ah just like a whole work crew come out and just clean up the wicker man and they they linger on that. It's a credits roll like not get out of there. It's over. Yeah.

44:59.75
Samantha Allen
Yeah, yeah, and you know I I I think I have had to since it came out just live with knowing that like because it is so like. So straddling genres that like sometimes it will land with the perfect reader and sometimes it will land with the reader who's like I liked it except for the gore you know? Ah, which yeah you know, but like.

45:36.80
Samantha Allen
Ah, you know I even talked about that with people like my agent or my editor going in. It's like we kind of knew this wasn't for everyone obviously given the premise but based on early readers early reactions. We we got the sense that for people.

45:54.94
Samantha Allen
Who it really clicked with it would like really click like they they would be thinking about this book in 10 years and to me like there's I would rather write ah kind of a.

46:01.96
Bob Pastorella
Yes.

46:11.12
Samantha Allen
Ah, flawed book you're still thinking about in 10 years than a really smoothed out book that like you forget and too.

46:17.79
Bob Pastorella
Right? Well yeah, you you did that and and yeah because it's kind of unforgettable and I'm I'm really looking forward to reading the next one and the one after that. So yes.

46:31.59
Samantha Allen
I Would love that I'll send you a galley as well. I'm nervous about the next one too. A lot of fearful fearless writing happening once again.

46:44.80
Michael David Wilson
Yeah I feel that for any project. There is a sense of trepidation when putting it out in the world when sending it to first readers. It just seems to be the natural. Way of things because I mean how can we possibly know how anything is going to be received and I think also as the writers we're too close to the project. So actually an amount of fearfulness in. Kind of anxious anticipation is healthy is normal because we don't want to be consumed by it.

47:28.32
Samantha Allen
Yeah I mean the terrifying thing about building something like ah like a book is.. It's so large that it like. Surpasses Your brain's ability to hold it all at once like you have to be able to offsource it onto these pages where it then like lives and becomes its own Organism. And when you can't kind of hold it all in your brain at once like an index card or something like that. Um,, there's something I don't know ungainly about it. You know like I don't I don't know how how you both feel about like the editing process but like you could. You could edit something forever and never iron out all of your quirks or inconsistencies or you know or crutches like so you're just kind of like chipping away at polishing this thing until it gets to some.

48:36.36
Samantha Allen
State that like you think clears some threshold and so much of that is like a gradient and not a binary that the whole process becomes terrifying. You're just like well I have looked at this set of. 300 pages over and over again for a year and I guess I need other people to look at it now because I can't look at it anymore.

49:06.34
Michael David Wilson
And yeah I think we have to send it into the world or send it to our agent or editor in spite of the fear. The fear will always be there but you just have to take that Yump and see what happens.

49:24.22
Samantha Allen
Yeah I mean both I guess I hoped that it would be less scary by book 3 but yeah each time and you get your memory wiped or something you know and like. Each time you you look at it in a word document or scrivener or whatever you use and you're like gosh I like I can't think about all this at once I can't cross check what's on page one hundred and eighty with what's on page 18 this thing is too too big. It reminds me of like being in in. Calculus in high school and like reaching the point in the coursework where you're like I'm not sure I really fully understand what's going on anymore. But I have to keep trying to like get good grades on the homework you know? Um, yeah. Book writing feels like that if I could write things that were only a page I feel like and or maybe that's misleading too. But I I tell myself that yeah if I only wrote something very short I could make sure it was perfect. The short story writers probably.

50:41.20
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and I mean we were saying how I mean rather than saying this is cross genre I would go further and say this defies genre this refuses to be put in.

50:42.84
Samantha Allen
Don't feel like ah.

51:00.14
Michael David Wilson
Any Sort of Genre box and of course you and your agent were very much aware of that. So I'm wondering how did you land your agent to begin with and then. Given how genre defying this is how did it end up being published by Zando.

51:28.26
Samantha Allen
Yeah I mean my agent found me through my online journalism I was a senior reporter for the daily beast large New York based digital news publication. Um for a number of years in the 2010 s I was largely reporting on lgbtq issues. Um, first under Obama and then under the Trump administration and my agent found me through that writing and. So you know the natural fit was to do you know queer autobiographical and nonfiction writing so real queer America my first. My first book was memoir travel log. Taking a road trip through conservative parts of the United States meeting and interviewing lgbtq people. Um, and and so like there was kind of a natural outgrowth. That's the trajectory for a lot of journalists is you know the age. The agent scouts you or you reach out to the agent but 1 way or another you you do a first book. That's really directly related to your journalistic work. But I had the idea for Patricia before that like you know it was it was sitting in a Google document. Um.

52:54.60
Samantha Allen
But I thought it was too like outlandish and not at all related to what I was doing so that would be a tough sell for publishers real queer America went to little brown at hisette so like you know a large traditional publisher and Patricia was. I mean I'll be candid like a real journey There was a big chunk of several months when I was pretty convinced. It wouldn't sell at all and I was just kind of sol with it. You know like we. We went down the list big and minor and we got a lot of polite rejections of like it's so interesting, but it's not for me or like it's interesting, but this or um, you know I don't. Think that this quite works or blah blah blah um, it is a strange book to think about housing you know, like where where do you shelve this and for that reason I think like it's kind of a daunting sell you know like we pitch to a lot of the like. Thriller imprints of larger publishing houses. But they're not looking for like Sasquatch Reality Tv Satire thriller they're looking for like solving a murder at a beach house like thriller you know so.

54:29.28
Samantha Allen
Yeah, like I was in the wilderness with it and I was like if someone wants to give me 2 dollies I'll sell it to them like it got it got pretty grim and then yeah zando a young editor at xandowcamealong. um Serena cammoth and this was her first book she had ever acquired for any publisher she ever worked at and she like she was one of those people who immediately got it and saw like the vision the entire way through also a bachelor fan. And like without her I think that I genuinely believe this would like still be on my Google drive.

55:18.92
Michael David Wilson
And well thank goodness for Serena then because I am so glad that there's a allowed in the world and I mean actually an element that we have barely mentioned is the storyline between. Kaffy and Maggie and the love letters. So I'm wondering I mean when in terms of the process of writing Patricia did this come along and also I'm wondering how much of you personally went into this storyline.

55:59.60
Samantha Allen
Yeah I would say a lot of like my relationships are in those love letters, partnerships friendships, etc. Um, but. The interstitial elements. So Patricia you know it follows a group of 4 reality reality show contestants in the final weeks of a bachelor style dating show. They're filming on a remote pacific Northwest Island and there's a shadowy creature looking in the woods like very. On its face a very traditional horror premise. Um, but the interstitial segments between the chapters are at first Reddit style foreign posts about the show then kind of. Ah, blog posts from someone who came to the island in the mid 2000 investigating her sister's disappearance on the island and then eventually love letters written in the 70 s between 2 longtime residents of this island. Um.

57:03.96
Samantha Allen
The interstitials began with the Reddit posts as this almost like it's like a greek chorus function. You know like you get to have a little bit of action and then you get to have the snarky little parrots like talk about it for for a second. Um, and the letters entered because I felt like I wanted to really draw out some of the more emotional themes of connection alienation finding. Kinship among fellow outsiders. Um, so that's where the love letters stemmed from but I also wanted this effect of getting to the end of the book. And having these bursts of like incredibly pure and sincere communication because you start out in the world of social media reality shows. Everything is fake everything everyone is telling to each other is a lie and as you know. The heads role and people come to more profound realizations about themselves and about their own mortality I felt it was super effective or I hoped it would be to have these little bursts of like to me like the most.

58:34.21
Samantha Allen
Pure bottled up essence in the world which is like you know, young people in like love like telling each other how much they love each other.

58:47.37
Michael David Wilson
And I didn't go So I mean transmitting it in this epistolary format just added another dimension and of a really effective layer to the storytelling. Did you always know that it would be experimental in its presentation and do you think going forward. You will be writing more stories in a epistolary or experimental format in terms of the. Media and the method in which the story is told.

59:26.61
Samantha Allen
Yeah, you know the the progression of it was the the Reddit posts think remembering it now the redit post began because I wanted to find a way to get the clumsy world building and exposition out of the narrative. Wanted the sections with the women on the island to be as propulsive and as seamless as possible I didn't want to have to tell you what their ages occupations and you know backgrounds were I mean there are ways to do that in prose that are that are elegant. Um. Maybe if I were a better writer I would have found them but to me like what appealed was well especially because I had to make up this whole show. Even though it's modeled after other reality shows like it had to have its own host its own history. Its own set of rules. But yeah, the interstitials began as a way of like. Let me get all that out of the action chapters. So we have action and then we have exposition but the reader. Ah well, you know if you're a writer reading it. You know what's going on. But if if you're just a reader. It's like. You're getting exposition but you don't know you're getting exposition. You feel like you're just reading a website you know, but in fact, I'm telling you how long the show has been on the air. What episode we're at telling you some of what happened before this episode began filming et cetera. Um.

01:00:59.28
Samantha Allen
And so yeah, that kind of opened the door for me to experiment with putting other sorts of things between the chapters. You know the the middle interstitials are sort of experimenting with like a very like true crime kind of voice of like. I'm here on this island to like unravel this conspiracy and I'm going to uncover a little piece that leads me to the next piece you know, um in terms of going forward though. Ah Roland Rogers I wrote it in a mixed media way and. A Serena bless her was like you know I liked that for Patricia but I don't think that actually serves this story and I say bless her because she was 100% right? Even though it required me to like effectively rewrite the entire book. Um. But after this I think I'm I'm done with like a traditional novel format I think like the next one will be almost entirely epistolary. Um.

01:02:12.26
Samantha Allen
At least that's how I've started up.

01:02:16.77
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and I think the way that Serena has been as an editor is exactly what. You want you want somebody who loves your work and is going to advocate for you. But also who's going to be brutally honest when required.

01:02:35.25
Samantha Allen
It is terrible though wouldn't it be great if you could just write it perfect the first time but now like it is it is the worst when an editor is right? and. Editors are usually right I found you know I think near the start of my career I used to be kind of more precious about keeping my darlings and things like that and with Patricia on the first pass I literally highlighted. I mean I read through it to see what Serena had had done in places but I literally just highlighted it and clicked accept changes and then worked from that draft because I was like let me have trust in the person who read it. Ah. And experienced it for the first time in a context outside of my own mind like 9 times out of 10. That's always going to be a safer bet than than your own instinct once you kind of get it across that finish line. You need to It's like such whiplash though. Because while writing it, you kind of need to believe like I'm the best I'm so awesome. This has to be told only I can do it and then you hand it in and you have to immediately be like I am a moron like I must so like absolutely like.

01:04:02.97
Samantha Allen
Accept What other people say about it now.

01:04:06.73
Michael David Wilson
I love that faith and that trust that you put in Serena to just hit the accept all button I always meticulously go through every suggested change and you know except manually if i. Agree. But yeah I feel there should be some sort of meme where it's like find me someone who will trust me the same way that cement for trust Serena because that is incredible right there.

01:04:40.28
Samantha Allen
Absolutely and I do want to mention Serena acquired Roland but then went to another publisher so I had another fantastic editor for the rest of Roland named Calen Douglas who is also like really great with it and kind of like a. Pushed me in in directions that were good for me even if it felt like eating my vegetables sometimes you know like I I think that's so healthy and like I think especially when you're writing something kind of risky and cross.

01:05:16.27
Samantha Allen
Genre defying you do kind of need to like sometimes rely on an editor as an anchor like is this still like is this still working. You know is the blend still right? Do I need to turn up the ah.

01:05:32.90
Samantha Allen
You know turn this element down or this element up.

01:05:36.57
Michael David Wilson
And yeah and I understand too that the rights for Patricia have been bought in terms of tv rights do you have any television show news that you can share with us.

01:05:52.42
Samantha Allen
All I know is is what the production company has told me which is things things are in the works I've seen you know, pitch pages and and sketches of how how how things would look and. Mood boards and all sorts of materials that in the mysterious world of hollywood are indicative of it moving along. But I don't have a concrete update to share just yet. But I'm I'm very excited. At the possibility of having 1.

01:06:28.90
Michael David Wilson
All right? and I must ask as well. How did the Lilly Wachowski blurb come about.

01:06:39.75
Samantha Allen
I I mean speaking of a time when social media could be social I knew Lily through Twitter um, one of my most prized possessions is a small prop from the movie bound. That Lily was kind enough to send me have I either of you seen bound before there's ah, there's a plane ticket in someone's pocket when when a character gets shot and it like creates a perfect circle through the plane ticket and it's surrounded in in.

01:07:01.63
Bob Pastorella
Oh yeah.

01:07:15.42
Samantha Allen
And blood and I have that plane ticket in a shadow box and it will I will keep it forever.

01:07:25.44
Michael David Wilson
That is incredible. So we are you currently in contact with Lily was there a friendship formed from from this I mean she she sent you the plane ticket from bound. That's.

01:07:26.94
Bob Pastorella
Very cool.

01:07:44.00
Michael David Wilson
And some serious stuff going on right there.

01:07:45.85
Samantha Allen
We have each other's numbers I would say contact is very intermittent I don't want to be 1 of those people who's like oh my god you made the matrix of all pla so it will be like you know once a year up I'll be like you know blah blah but or in the case of the bound ticket. It was like Lily just randomly being like what is your address have something to send you ah, she's very, ah.

01:08:20.76
Samantha Allen
She's a woman a few words I would say you know the blurbs come about by Carrier Pigeon almost you know I'll send her I'll send her a book that I'm working on and then you know you'll get the most beautiful gift in your inbox on the day you're least expecting it which is. 1 of the creators of the matrix like saying that you have a wacky interesting brain. You know that I'll dine out on that in my 80 s if people remember what the matrix is then I wonder will we have remade the matrix by then.

01:08:48.14
Michael David Wilson
Oh yeah, oh yeah.

01:08:59.20
Samantha Allen
I Hope that they've like locked locked it down in some way.

01:09:03.73
Michael David Wilson
I feel that even if we live in a universe where it has been remade that is It's not going to come close to the original and you know, kind kind of like when they remade the Korean film old boy I mean that.

01:09:22.84
Michael David Wilson
There is a remake of it but it doesn't touch the original.

01:09:26.45
Bob Pastorella
That's right.

01:09:29.80
Michael David Wilson
Just just don't remake the matrix for anyone listening in the future and the rights are available just don't make your own original film. It's perfect as it is Yeah yeah, well.

01:09:38.54
Samantha Allen
Yeah, it was good enough for the first time. Yeah.

01:09:48.32
Michael David Wilson
Thank you so much for spending the vast majority of your evening chating with us this has been absolutely fascinating and I want to do it again for Roland ruds which is why I've deliberately. And don't know we're we're not going to ask any questions about Roland Rogers now let's read it and then let's do this again.

01:10:12.96
Samantha Allen
Yeah, all I could say is it's It's a it's a ghost Love story. But ah, um, even more nontraditional than the the ghost qualifier would Suggest. Um. But you'll see soon enough and this has been a delight.. It's been lovely to chat with both of you.

01:10:30.49
Michael David Wilson
Thank you very much then feeling is definitely mutual and I mean I wonder where can our listeners and viewers connect with you.

01:10:43.51
Samantha Allen
Ah, you know you can find me on social media I suppose um, when when we get more into a cycle for Roland where the. The the cover is officially unveiled. There's something like that I'll go public on Instagram again and you can find me there for now. Just you know find Patricia wants to cuddle in a bookstore and read it. That's so much more important than finding me I put all the coolest. Funniest most interesting violent thoughts that I have in this green thing you can hold in your hands. What am I going to do show you a picture of the sandwich I'm eating for lunch. That's no good.

01:11:27.91
Michael David Wilson
I mean it was either that or a rant about women's bathrooms.

01:11:32.52
Samantha Allen
Yes, yeah, follow me for rants about public restroom hygiene which is atrocious I do feel like it's also getting worse to just exist in public space. But that's a whole other tangent.

01:11:48.26
Michael David Wilson
No yeah, yeah, but do you have any final thoughts to leave our listeners with.

01:11:57.50
Samantha Allen
Write fearlessly I'm going to steal that fearless writing do fearless writing throw out Genre Rule Books. And surprise yourself.