TIH 567: Kev Harrison on Shadow of the Hidden, Research for Stories, and Story Planning

Timestamps for the video version. Add around 2 minutes and 45 for the audio.

00:02.40
Michael David Wilson
Kev, welcome back to this is horror podcast.

00:04.60
Kev Harrison
Man. Thank you so much for inviting me back. It is great to be here.

00:08.26
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, you know the last time we spoke for the podcast it is getting on for 3 years now because we actually last put out a podcast in August Twenty Twenty one so it was it was indeed.

00:19.77
Kev Harrison
I remember it was when Below had just been released.

00:27.29
Michael David Wilson
And as you probably anticipated because this is what I ask everyone returning I want to know what have been the biggest changes for you both personally and in the past three years

00:40.99
Kev Harrison
Well goodness quite a lot of things I mean personally it's been a real whirlwind of a time I think a lot of people will probably relate to this because it's sort of the sort of later 10 drills of the pandemic you know like because obviously 2021 we were still sort of in the thick of it. I don't think anyone really knew what the kind of end game would look like and but me working as an english teacher in ah western europe it kind of ended up changing the the way my my work schedule and my work life balance kind of ah. Looked um in kind of but what was going to be a permanent way basically and which has resulted in me actually stepping away from full time teaching ah during the school year which has been a massive change because I was doing it for about 12 years and that point no ten years ten years. Yeah, um, and so since. About 2022 I've actually been doing sort of parttime hours during the school year and then a very very intensive ah summer program at universities in the Uk um to make most of my income for the years so that's been a massive change for me. Um career wise. Ah, in terms of my non-writing career.

01:59.19
Michael David Wilson
And yeah, and so in terms of having that writing routine and having that balance between the teaching and writing I'm wondering what that looks like now and if the pattern that you've. Kind of got into is one that you think you'll be in permanently or at least for the semi-long term.

02:25.16
Kev Harrison
I mean I definitely like it to be a long-term arrangement. Um, because as I say you know the the kind of upshot of covid was that really instead of having ah so blocks of free time in my life that I used to have as a teacher know we're normally I'll be teaching in the evenings. And free in the mornings and the early afternoons. It got to the point where I was really sort of only having an hour or two free a day and that was it sandwiched in the middle of work. You know like lots of early starts and late finishes. Ah, and obviously as as you know you know like when you're extremely tired like. Definitely not producing the best in terms of writing either. So it just didn't really make sense and I was making less money than I'm making now anyway, so it just didn't really didn't really make sense to keep doing it and but in terms of the writing. Yeah I'm finding it took a while to get a groove going you know because I think it's quite easy. To get sidelined when when there's been such a big change because I got very much into this kind of rhythm of like you know say 10 am m to 1 pm was my writing time you know like four days a week or five days a week depending on the week and suddenly that. Kind of that pressure to create in that morning originally was was no longer really there and I kind of have more time where I could you know sort of say ah this week I'll do Tuesday afternoon but then things crop up. So I've had to took a bit of time of adjustment. But I think now I'm kind of on top of it and.

03:54.85
Kev Harrison
The last sort of year or so I've managed to write about 3 novellas in about about about fourteen months I suppose um, ah and that's yeah, full first draft 1 edited to a submitted to publish a draft. So. So I feel like yeah, the productivity is kind of kicked in now and I've kind of got myself in a place where I'm really happy with that schedule and how it works.

04:19.70
Michael David Wilson
And it it's interesting that you said that you've written free novellas in the past fourteen months because I think people who have read your work. They're probably most familiar with the novella format. But of course today we're going to talk about your debut.

04:38.25
Kev Harrison
Absolutely.

04:38.82
Michael David Wilson
Novel a lot of people when they go to novel they kind of stay almost on that track. But do you think the Novella is the form that you prefer is it purely coincidence and.

04:55.43
Michael David Wilson
You know you work on the story and it just so happens that these stories have been novella.

05:01.54
Kev Harrison
I mean I'm a great believer in exactly what you just said really that you know different stories have different lengths that they need to be um and I I try not to kind of shoebox my ah stories into either novella or novel or novelette or whatever it might be. Um, but actually with these three novellas I'm working on these are ones that I'm writing for a contracts I got given towards the end of last year I think or maybe the year before with lichen valley press where they've actually bought but they've they've signed me up for 4 folkloric horror novellas. They are the publisher that actually did my first nevanna the balance. Um, and they very much liked it. They say it was one of their better sellers might been their best seller actually but I can't confirm that so I'm not going to wear that badge because I'm not sure I have the right to, but it's certainly won their better sellers and they came back to me. Ah, late in 2022 and said have you got any more folk nor at folkloric horror nevedas I said no and they said have you got any ideas for and I said yeah and they said okay, do you have a contract for for a couple and I was like yeah fine and they sent me a contract. They had four on it and I was like oh Jesus. Ah, but I mean it's quite nice to have that kind of that kind of belief from the publisher and support so so yeah that's what I've been plowing away with for the last sort of yeah year and a bit

06:26.38
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and I think we probably both became most familiar with 1 another's work when we were submitting a lot of stories to hawk and cleaavers the other stories these 2000 words stories that appeared on there.

06:39.90
Kev Harrison
Absolutely.

06:44.78
Michael David Wilson
Podcast and of course each week they would have a different theme each month. In fact I think it was or each period each period It was normally about a month but obviously because of the nature of that we would.

06:52.43
Kev Harrison
Each month. Yeah.

07:01.30
Michael David Wilson
Write in a great deal of different subs genres. But as you've alluded to here I mean a lot of the work that you're doing recently broadly fits under this folklore or this folk horror category. So.

07:03.78
Kev Harrison
Yeah.

07:19.67
Michael David Wilson
Is this deliberate is this something to you kind of want to be in or is this just the way that the stories are coming out at the moment.

07:27.57
Kev Harrison
I mean I wouldn't say it's the only thing I want to be certainly I mean I've got other things in the pipeline other things that are kind of half written that are somewhat different I still have that office murder comedy that comedy that I will finish I will finish it.

07:39.45
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, which I almost reference there I'm very excited for that one I've been anticipating that probably since you told me the idea at a drunken party many years ago when we had considerably.

07:54.47
Kev Harrison
Exactly.

07:58.50
Michael David Wilson
More hair and less white in it. But happy days. Yeah.

08:02.65
Kev Harrison
Trick story indeed indeed that's life. That's how it goes Um, but yes, ah so I've got other things I want to do as well. I'm also planning and a cult detective series at some point but it's just like you know, getting things to the front of the Queue. You know what? I mean. And and I'm always very very interested in folklore and I think folklore as a background for a story or as like the kind of um, the what can we say like ah the legendary element or like the. The reason behind a story is a really compelling thing for me. So It's something that I'm sure I will always be dipping my toes back into even when I do step away from it.

08:44.86
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and I mean speaking of which there's a question from this is horror patron and fellow writer and friend Dan Howarth who says that 1 particularly brilliant blab for your novel.

08:55.41
Kev Harrison
Okay.

09:03.32
Michael David Wilson
Describe you as a master of folklore I know whose Blab that was by the way what is your process for delving into lore and history when researching a story.

09:18.69
Kev Harrison
That's a really good question and the answer is. It's often very different depending on the time. So for example, one of the ah folkloric horror and novelvelas the one that I've actually sent back to the publisher finished or you know finished until the editor tells me. About all the crap things I've done and I have to change. Um ah is set in ah western France and it's about ah fairy folklore but not the kind of you know, cute Peter Pan fairies like this is the kind of like eat your children kind of fairies which I prefer to be honest. Um, and and this one came.

09:53.50
Michael David Wilson
I prefer to read about it. Just not to experience it I don't want my child to be eaten by a fairy or indeed anything else.

10:03.65
Kev Harrison
I think that's admirable. let' to be honest, as ah as ah as a philosophy as an approach. Um, but yeah, so this one came about because I literally saw um a picture. Ah on Twitter let's not call it x let's not even go there. Um, on Twitter. And with the picture there was like a description of what this ah the image was describing. It was like this ah french folkloric entity this kind of like ah sea fairy thing and I was like that's quite interesting and then I read a bit more and I was like oh yeah, it's one of those kind of folkloric stories where. Gets really really dark and I was like okay I can definitely do some with this so from there I kind of looked if anyone else had picked up that myth that myth or legend and written a horror story about it. They hadn't so I delved right in. Um and that that kind of wrote itself almost um, but with the novel shadow of the hidden which also has a lot of folklore in it. That folklore was a lot more foreign to me quite literally you know because obviously it's much more removed from my day-day experience living in Europe so that involved a lot more digging around listening to podcasts reading ah a few articles. Ah, extracts from books that kind of thing so it really really does depend on what the folklore is how close to home. It is um and yeah, what I want to do with it as well. I suppose.

11:30.74
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and with the new book shadow of the hidden I know much like the office horror that we referenced that this is an idea that you have had for a very long time I think over a decade in fact or or getting on for that.

11:48.30
Kev Harrison
Yeah.

11:49.72
Michael David Wilson
Now we did mention it briefly in the 2021 conversation but as this is not a podcast where you have to go back and reference other ones and then continue listening could you tell us a little bit about.

11:55.99
Kev Harrison
Um, our member. Yeah.

12:06.48
Michael David Wilson
The origin story and the genesis for this idea.

12:10.90
Kev Harrison
Well, yeah, so when I lived in turkey which is the first place I lived as a teacher living abroad um had ah a good friend who had a bar and um his his bar's main source of income was they did very good ice cream. And they used to fry the ice cream and it was the first martine fried ice cream blew my tiny little mind my god but anyway, um, one day we were sitting around playing backgammon as you do and an old lady came over and asked him for ice cream. She was a widow and in their culture. You're supposed to give widows like you know bread cheese milk. Tea coffee the the basics but she always wanted ice cream and my friend like used to tell her to bugger off basically because you know like this is his main source of business. He would say to you know I'll get you a coffee if you want I'll give you some water you know find you'd be like no no no ice cream is very hot and he'd be like get out of here. And then this one day he he did it and she absolutely freaked out and she ah put a curse on him which obviously in real life. Thankfully, nothing really came of it. Um, but something weird happened that night and my friend was convinced that. This gin curse that she put on him and his family was real and that he was basically doomed and you know his whole family was going to be killed by a sort of pre-islamic Demon so I was like calm down fellow. It's probably gonna be fine I it was fine but in the story I wondered like you know what would.

13:41.88
Kev Harrison
What would that look like if it if it did happen and what's really interesting is as you say I kind of carry this story around for a long time and then um about five years ago I kind of had some more ideas about cast members and people who could be involved and at pretty much exactly that time. Um, the. Ah, lawyer and podcaster. Um ah Rabia chowdry who did some work with the original serial and some other things and she put out a podcast called the hidden gin and her podcast was just amazing for me because I was at the time where I was. Thinking I really want to write this story but I need more information and she was playing out these podcasts with her experience as a pakistani american and her knowledge of the jin but also referencing where these stories came from with like really useful articles. Really useful books and so I was just like gobbling this up and just kind of. Expanding my knowledge so I could write the story. Basically so that's kind of where the story comes from.

14:42.52
Michael David Wilson
And so you said that the evening after this ice cream loving widow put a curse on your friend that something strange happened. What was the strange thing that happened.

14:51.54
Kev Harrison
Yeah.

14:57.87
Kev Harrison
Yes, basically his massive ice cream trolley which was like really massive. It's like you know, like 15 flavor jobs on casters like was moved during the middle of the night when we were asleep probably drunk um in in the flat above. Ah, it was moved into the middle of the street where the sun fell directly in the morning. Um, and and the weird thing about it is like this this this fridge this ice cream fridge was bloody heavy I mean we're talking like yeah I think it's like two hundred and fifty Kilos ah before he had any ice cream and it'ss it's really really heavy. Um, and like I couldn't move it myself. I'm not the strongest man as you well know, but ah, but even even my friend who was yeah he done military service and stuff he couldn't move it easily alone. So yeah, it was pretty weird that. Sort of during the middle of the night and also normally it was well. It was chained up and we always checked the chain before we went into bed. We checked the chain that night before we went to bed after going to this bar nearby for drinks. It was closed and the the chain had just been opened up thing moved into sunshine all of his stock destroyed and he was convinced. It was the jin and I was like nah. She's probably just got some really beefy relatives that she's got to mess you up.

16:19.17
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, well yeah I mean exactly what you just said seemed to be the logical explanation you know, particularly if it's like right? It's either supernatural entity or it's some big strong boys.

16:23.75
Kev Harrison
Right? exactly.

16:33.11
Kev Harrison
Or just some strong lads of which there are several in that area of Turkey you know they're not hard to come by.

16:36.95
Michael David Wilson
And I think probably yeah, yeah, but I yeah I can understand him being disturbed by by that and by the.

16:51.77
Kev Harrison
I think especially because that that is such no, she didn't She never came back now and I think I think that kind of superstition as well is such an ingrained part of their culture that like if someone talks about it. They get really kind of on edge and so I think that kind of magnified the.

16:52.20
Michael David Wilson
Timing I presume that afterward She never came back in. Yeah.

17:10.42
Kev Harrison
The fear for him you know, whereas for me, it was like wait talking about you know.

17:14.48
Michael David Wilson
And I wonder because you did so much research I mean yeah, we we've said before that you're an atheist and you don't have much belief in these kind of things but did you.

17:29.70
Kev Harrison
Um, if any.

17:31.76
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, did you stumble upon anything that was kind of harder to explain or did you ever have any moments where you doubted your lack of belief or you know, maybe there is something in that one.

17:48.54
Kev Harrison
I mean I didn't doubt my lack of belief I wouldn't say because I'm fairly ah I'm fairly convinced about there not being any supernatural entities. But 1 thing I did find fascinating actually which kind of makes its way into the book is. Um, stories of these people especially normally kids actually who are what we call what they call jin masters these days. Um, and this happens quite a lot in quite a lot of um arabic civilizations where basically these kids like have like a pet gin sounds sounds absolutely mental doesn't it. Um, and the petin often like helps them like find like valuable things and stuff like this and there are quite a lot of sort of quite well documented stories of kids you know with like limited education ah from a poor neighborhood. They suddenly attract a pet gin. Find loads of valuable stuff. That's just been like buried somewhere and you know end up like enriching their families to like sort of quite enormous levels of wealth and it's really quite bizarre like that this can happen. Um, but I mean you know it might be they stumble upon something it might be. They heard a rumor. It might be an elaborate. Ruse who knows but I did find those kind of stories compelling I definitely wanted to bring one of those characters into the book when I read about those.

19:09.73
Michael David Wilson
And I mean it's interesting how sometimes belief can correlate with mindset and can correlate with Action. So if you generally think that you have this pet gin that is going to help you find wealth. Then you might go out and actively seek these opportunities more whereas if you don't believe that then what you're not going to go digging around for Gold. You got other things to do like eat ice cream but ice cream that you have paid for rather than mandid.

19:39.24
Kev Harrison
Okay.

19:46.37
Kev Harrison
exactly quite bloody right? as well.

19:48.54
Michael David Wilson
So Yeah I But but I do think there's a lot to do with with belief and then at your you know, not manifestation because then that makes it sound like there's more a spiritual component but I mean even when we talk about. Writing and we talk about success. Obviously there is a lot of luck involved. There is a lot of opportunities coming along at the right time but I do think that more you write the more tickets as it were you have to getting lucky to having.

20:19.51
Kev Harrison
yeah.

20:26.47
Michael David Wilson
That big break. So if you believe that it could happen. You're more likely to put the work in and then you're actually more likely to have that success I mean that's the way I've typically done things.

20:28.67
Kev Harrison
for sure.

20:34.50
Kev Harrison
Yeah, and I think I think not even just the not even just writing more but also like writing with conviction. You know like this is I'm writing this to get published I'm not writing this. Yeah just for for a laugh. So I'm going to take the editing process. Seriously I'm going to take my word choices more seriously. Um. Um, going to take my storycraft and plotting more seriously. So I think I think you're absolutely right? Yeah I agree like when you have that kind of conviction that's based in something else then maybe it is going to make you as you say do more of the things that will lead you to ultimately Having. Success. Whatever we define that as.

21:12.56
Michael David Wilson
And how do you think your mindset and your perception of yourself as a writer has changed in these past three years?

21:25.50
Kev Harrison
As you can probably imagine from your own experience. It's up and down there are times when I feel like um things are better I mean I definitely feel like you know when I when I read back ah shadow of the hidden as I've been doing obviously a lot.

21:43.10
Kev Harrison
With the finlancing process proof reading and you know doing a few readings and stuff like this which I'll be doing more of this week coming at author come which we'll talk about in a bit I suppose. Um, ah I do feel that is a stronger book than any of the books I've written before which is very good. So I mean that that. I think is a really good gauge of my own improvement. Um I think 1 thing I've been thinking about quite a bit recently and this again maybe is something that you can empathize with too. Um is that I've been working a lot on long form. Work and that has meant that I've not had as much time to put into short stories and the kind of upshot of that is that you do kind of sometimes get that envy of like you know you see a submission call that you fancied having a crack at. And then you see ah close yesterday I really wish I'd had time to do that. But like you said before you know, many times you can do anything but you can't do everything right? Um, so you kind of just have to take that on the chin. Um, so that's not really a perception of myself as a writer but maybe it's like a um.

22:58.56
Kev Harrison
Fear missing out a little bit. Perhaps.

23:00.45
Michael David Wilson
And yeah, that's something I actually relate to very recently because I feel probably the last two or three years or maybe even longer I haven't really looked at any short story calls because I've been so. Obsessed in terms of finishing my lung form works and then there's like literally a backlog at the moment I mean when I finish the the current novella that I'm working on I've then just got to choose out of another 3 that are all indifferent.

23:36.30
Kev Harrison
Absolutely.

23:37.20
Michael David Wilson
Stages So I feel I mean I want to get them done because I wanted them be able to move on to completely fresh ideas but whilst they're not done. It's like let's work on those but I I was thinking back to the time where I mean there was. A year where I literally submitted to every single.. The other store is cool and I know I kind of miss that because I mean I suppose I have a mode or a style of writing that I often gravitate towards but in doing.

24:01.97
Kev Harrison
I remember.

24:14.42
Michael David Wilson
This other stories is cool. It meant that I was writing a great variety and in in in a great variety of different subs genres and I know I quite like to do that again. So that there's part of me that's wondering like shall I just make. You know twenty twenty five the year where it's light right? Dan and Luke and arrested a gang I'm back I'm submitting to every to every cool and and in goes well like we we consider obviously the market we look at the quality of the market we look at.

24:37.93
Kev Harrison
Let's go back to this. Ah yeah.

24:50.14
Michael David Wilson
Ah, pay as well and obviously with them being an independent small outfit. You know they they can't compete with like a trad press that can you know put these like well Beyond. Pro rates of pay. But I think what they do? It's so kind of pure and it's so good and so yeah, I'm really considering just well. Yeah I mean almost literally second to none because.

25:11.77
Kev Harrison
The production quality is really second to none almost isn't it like it really is.

25:24.20
Michael David Wilson
For me in terms of the best kind of audio production podcast for short stories. It is between them and no sleep podcast and I wouldn't like to say who's first or who's second. Yeah yeah.

25:32.49
Kev Harrison
Yeah, yeah, and I don't really see anyone else kind of competing on that level. Yeah, yeah, absolutely I think the other thing is well about writing short stories that I miss is and and I did I did get 1 which strangely enough went to went to the other stories towards the end of last year which I really enjoy writing because I think you can be much more experimental when you're writing short fiction. Um I mean some people you know carry that experimental nature into their long fiction and do it incredibly? Well I'm thinking of people like Joco and people like that you know, um, ah but I mean certainly I don't feel. Have the chops to write a 70000 word book of such experimental material whereas you know when I'm playing in a 2 to 4000 word wheelhouse I really feel like I can kind of go okay, just put the rules in the bin and have some fun. You know what? I mean. Um, so I kind of missed that a little bit as well. So yeah I think I definitely will once I've written these four novellas I'm going to take a bit of time to to kind of give myself permission to write some more shorts and be more playful with you know the boundaries of what I write and what. My voice is and so forth.

26:45.34
Michael David Wilson
And yeah, and as we've been talking about Hawk and cleaver I don't know if you're able to talk about this. So if you're not then just giving myself more editing work really? but I understand that the novel shadow of the hidden there will be.

27:05.15
Michael David Wilson
An Audiobook version that will be out via hawk and cleaver. So can you tell us anything about that.

27:10.68
Kev Harrison
I'm afraid not to know? No no, it's not no um I did actually approach them about it. Um, and and I think what they based what they ultimately decided was that the size of the book was just too much. Um because they've done one novella so far. Which was Dan Howard's excellent territory which was brilliantly adapted as well. Um, and they ultimately decided that if they they do want to do more audiobooks but they want to do novelda's up to 35000 macs and um ah shadow the hiddens about. Just under 10000 words more than that and they just felt it was too much to take on at this stage of the genesis. So I've actually put out I've actually used voice 1 2 3 to ah, get hold of some auditions for audiobook.

28:02.15
Kev Harrison
And I have actually now selected the narrator and he is busily working away at that at the moment.

28:09.35
Michael David Wilson
That's excellent news and I mean I presume.

28:14.66
Kev Harrison
I don't know if you've had this experience. Well I know you have had this experience actually before but when you are auditioning for audiobooks. It is the weirdest thing in the world because when I when I use voice 1 2 3 they give you 25 auditions so I'd to listen to 25 auditions of.

28:33.50
Kev Harrison
The first chapter of the novel and so it's like the same the thing same thing being read by 25 people like 3 or 4 of them were rubbish so I just threw him in the bin straight away said? Yeah thanks No thanks. But then the other twenty odd like 2021 auditions really good. So I end up listening back to this first chapter of my book like 70 times. Like 20 voices in about two days and I felt like I was going completely insane by the end.

28:58.73
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, the way that I typically do it is I try to get recommendations all right because I listen to a lot of audiobooks myself oh like see okay who are the narrators that I really enjoy personally.

29:06.76
Kev Harrison
Are.

29:18.58
Michael David Wilson
Um, I tend to find that if I can get a recommendation then that's better because of course not only can they vouch for the narrator and their performance but also in terms of how easy was it to work with them. How.

29:34.15
Kev Harrison
Ah sure. Yeah.

29:34.82
Michael David Wilson
Easy was it in terms of editory or changes and as I'm sure you can imagine the 2 narrators that I have worked with and I don't mind saying they've pretty much said that I'm the most meticulous of the offers that they've worked with. Almost to the point of annoyance you know I yeah yeah, so I I think as well because I can be where can be means almost 99.9 percent of the time. Yeah, really pedantic.

29:54.93
Kev Harrison
This is my surprised face.

30:05.38
Kev Harrison
Like a stickler for detail. Yeah yeah.

30:11.13
Michael David Wilson
In terms of detail. It is important to have somebody who is open to changes but then I feel as well. You know the first time that you've worked with someone. Probably the hardest because not only did they understand how I am to work with but I can know what the limitations are how how many times can we go over this and I still maintain my professional relationship with them and.

30:38.82
Kev Harrison
Nice, nice.

30:42.94
Michael David Wilson
I mean I mean so far things have worked out. Okay I had RJBailey to begin with I worked with him when he was really just starting out and he he asked me if I'd be interested in working with him and so water for drowning was the first one. Yeah.

30:53.68
Kev Harrison
Yeah, was it water for drowning. He did first by Ray clearly yeah, fantastic. Yeah.

31:02.82
Michael David Wilson
And you know steadily he has become more known which has meant that his rates have gone up and up and up as is you know the case and when it came to house of Bad memories I mean not only just the rates but his demand has gone up so in terms of a times scale. It wasn't really possible but then David Moody put me onto the narrator Aubrey Parsons and David had gone through various.

31:32.00
Kev Harrison
Yes.

31:38.71
Michael David Wilson
Audiobook narrators before just really jelling with Aubrey and so yeah, working with him was fantastic as well and you know in in terms of well actually.

31:49.37
Kev Harrison
He also has a yeah ah midlands accent as well doesn't he.

31:55.38
Michael David Wilson
If you listen to the audiobook. Okay, so actually Aubrey is from Wales but he can do pretty much any accent. So if you listen to some of the books that he has done.

31:57.92
Kev Harrison
Um, I've listened to a preview of it.

32:04.86
Kev Harrison
Whoa.

32:13.39
Michael David Wilson
For David Moody the first book that he ever did. The opening is a prologue as a woman from yorktshire and he nailed that if you go to his website. He he can pretty much do any accent. So I I think you know.

32:23.57
Kev Harrison
Oh My god. Amazing.

32:32.88
Michael David Wilson
It's testament to that that you actually thought he was from the midlands. It's like no that that is all put on. Um I mean I did ah an interview with him as part of the house of bad memories.

32:35.72
Kev Harrison
Yeah, that is just put on well fantastic.

32:48.68
Michael David Wilson
Podcast weekend. So then you can hear his real voice should you want to in that very conversation. Yeah, well and that's understandable though. There were many hours in that weekend then I may have.

32:51.84
Kev Harrison
Okay, I'm gonna check that one out I've listened to a lot of that weekend but not all of it.

33:03.30
Kev Harrison
Many hours. Yeah.

33:08.49
Michael David Wilson
Gone over the top with the promotion I did but you you know you've got to give your book every chance and I mean that links us back to you and the things that you're doing for shadow of the hidden. So what are you doing.

33:15.12
Kev Harrison
I agree.

33:25.32
Michael David Wilson
To promote it I mean you're over in America right now. So there's a fairly big step.

33:29.30
Kev Harrison
Yeah, yeah, I'm in the Usa this week. Um I'm going to authorcon 3 which is run by scars that care. Um, so they they also raise money for awesome charity which is the reason why I thought this was a particularly good. Convention to attend. But also everyone I've spoken to who's been there before has really enjoyed. It had a great time. Um, and ah I'm actually sharing a table and a hotel room with Mike Clark who wrote the adventure horror novel hell on high and before that the series patience of a dead man. Which he's bringing back in a new version quite soon. But he actually visited portugal because his wife's brazilian and then she wanted to see portugal forever. He visited about about three years ago now god time flies or I'm getting old or both um and we went out for dinner with those guys and had a really good time. So um. It just felt like natural when Mike said he was interested in going I was like hey dude yeah do you want to share a room share a table sell some books and so yeah, so I'm going to this convention which is really exciting. It's the first one I'm going to kind of as like you know trying to sell stuff. You know like with ah with ah with an author table I'm also doing a reading 5 pm on Saturday afternoon with Tony Evans which should be really good. Fun. A little bit nervous. Quite nervous actually but but looking forward to it as well. Um, so yeah I just figured um with this novel like I said I feel like it is a really big step for me in terms of my.

35:02.10
Kev Harrison
Capacity as a writer I really felt like I really landed this well and so I wanted to give it all the ah the best opportunity I could for it to do as well as it could and find as many readers as it can so that's kind of why I'm over here this week

35:16.19
Michael David Wilson
And when you say that you're doing a reading with Tony Evans do you mean that you're both reading at the same event or are you literally doing a reading together.

35:30.84
Kev Harrison
no, no, we're doing at the same events. So basically like um in in on the orcom program they have like readings in one of the rooms ah throughout the day. Um, and it's always like 2 waters paired together and I think it's no coincidence that Tony's got a couple of really. Nice folk horror books. They kind of paired him up with me so nice job Brian Kean with that one.

35:54.52
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and I mean do do you often? get nervous when it comes to doing book readings because I mean obviously you do like quite a lot of. I Suppose semi-public speaking in the sense that you know your day job is being a teacher and lecturing and things like that. But as I know obviously teaching and doing a book Reading. Go completely different. So Yeah I'm wondering if it's the book reading itself or if it. Is more because of the states of this particular book.

36:31.71
Kev Harrison
I think it's the reading itself I mean this is actually the first reading I'm ever going to have done in person. Um I mean I've done a couple online but I feel like the kind of safety as it were of. Like having the screen and you know like ah the the machine between you and the audience means that it isn't really quite so terrifying. Um, so I think speaking in front of an audience in that sense of kind of performing you know, um, it's gonna be the first time I've done it. So I really don't know. I'm I'm guessing that I'm gonna be nervous. Hopefully I won't hopefully I'll take to it like a duckta water. But ah I suspect I'll be a little bit nervy at the very least.

37:11.46
Michael David Wilson
And do you try to throw in performative aspects to the reading I mean I know that from offer to offer it varies some people do a straight reading others us will you know have different. Accents maybe you channel out Aubrey Parsons a little bit of as there'll be some more kind of physical comedy and then you know you can go all the way up to Josh Malerman and Chuck Palahniuk who turn it into some show where they're throwing things out into the. Audience and it's this mad kind of participatory event.

37:49.92
Kev Harrison
I Think something that you and I in our writing have in common is that we tend to have quite a bit of dialogue and so I think if you're reading something that has sort of quite a dense volume of dialogue within the text I think it kind of necessitates a bit more. A performative approach so people kind of keep hold of you know who is speaking when and to who and like you know that inflection of like you know, stress words and if people are raising their voices that kind of thing. So I suspect I will be yeah trying to make it more performative maybe like a ah. You know like a audio drama type approach. So I'll try my best with the accents. We'll see how that goes.

38:33.88
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, see this is why I did wonder if you were literally doing the reading with Tony because I mean a number of times I've had like a a double act I did one with Bob Pastorella for their watching.

38:42.12
Kev Harrison
Ah, yeah.

38:47.19
Kev Harrison
Yeah.

38:51.39
Michael David Wilson
And then actually for the house of bad memories launch me and Laurel Hightower performs things we say which is one of my first short story acceptances. So yeah and any opportunity I can do to double act read I do so.

38:57.33
Kev Harrison
Yeah, yeah, yeah, fantastic.

39:08.58
Kev Harrison
yeah, amazing. Maybe one day. Yeah.

39:10.63
Michael David Wilson
You know, maybe one day people will get there. Yeah there you go. We can't wait for that day like literally we we have to get on with the interview. Why it would be an abrupt abrupt ending.

39:26.51
Kev Harrison
Exactly.

39:28.49
Michael David Wilson
And I mean that there seems to be a lot of autobiography within shadow of the hidden I mean less so in terms of the actual events. But I mean people who are familiar with you will know how. Seriously, you take your food and cuisine and there are a lot of very specific almost indulgent but not in a way that detracts kind of descriptions of the food that they're eating and then of course I mean they go from.

39:50.41
Kev Harrison
Yes, ah.

40:06.11
Michael David Wilson
Place to place there. There are parts set in turkey in Cairo in Tunisia so I'm wondering you know how much of you has gone into this story and how many real life experiences from the places that you've traveled to have gone into this.

40:25.60
Kev Harrison
I mean I can confirm I've eaten all the food. So like that's ah, that's definitely a ah box ticked. But yeah I mean ah like you say you know the events themselves are very much not from my life experience. Obviously.

40:40.26
Kev Harrison
And but the places are places that I feel I know very well and um I feel that those places were were highly appropriate for the kind of story I wanted to tell because you know the um, the the sit the city setting in um, in Tunisia in in Kairowan for example, is. Is like the fourth most holy city in the islamic world so that kind of felt right to include that in a story that's about their sort of myth mythological backgrounds and obviously the citadel and ah the necropolis in Cairo as well felt like a natural kind of place to. Send these people on their adventure as well. And again, it's someone that I know very well. Um with the food I think I mean I thought about this and the reason I think the food is such an important part of the description is that. Think a lot of the people reading this book purely by virtue of the fact that you know the the majority of horror readers in english are from the United States um a lot of people will not really have that great a familiarity with these locations and I think that um. Along with yeah obviously the descriptions of scenery and so on and and ah and language and sights and smells and sounds I think food can really ground you in a place like I really believe that if you haven't had the food somewhere. You really haven't been there in some sense.

42:11.78
Kev Harrison
Um, so I think that was the reason I employed so much of that partly because I love it but partly because also I feel like it puts people in that place and lets them feel like they are living that experience along with serears and Dennis.

42:24.34
Michael David Wilson
Yeah I include a lot of food references in my work as well because like you say I think it is part of the place but almost to the point that one of the negative reviews that a girl in the video said something along the lines of. Is this a story or is this a Japanese restaurant guide and you know as I as I don't reply to reviews I didn't write anything to that. But I There was a part of me that just wanted to write back. Why not both? Yeah, you know if if you read the book.

42:54.97
Kev Harrison
Yeah, exactly just write. Yes.

43:03.11
Michael David Wilson
And then you go to some of the restaurants that I've referenced and you have a good time then then job done. It wasn't the job that you were looking for but perhaps it was the job that you needed and now you're eating a delicious meal.

43:15.14
Kev Harrison
I Think Also if if if we think as well about like um the times when we have perhaps yeah, our most meaningful conversations are the people a lot of the time that is over a meal isn't it like you know because that's the time that you have to stop you know doing your work. Whatever it is that you're busy with in your life. And just say okay, let's just have a conversation while we Eat. So I think that is quite a natural thing as well. I know some people really hate food in Fiction. So I apologize to those people if they pick up shadow and just feel sad or empty.

43:46.12
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, but who are these people. Why do they hate it. You know, literally if you're listening and you hate it. Let us know why do you hate it. You hate food in general.

43:50.25
Kev Harrison
Some people hate food. Yeah I would actually be interested. Yeah, yeah, some people do hate food. Some people like really only eat like I've I've met many people who not many but a few people who say I literally eat food because otherwise I'll die. But I Just don't care. And when I make this paper I'm just like Wow I will I will never understand you as a human being I'm sorry I'm just like.

44:14.64
Michael David Wilson
The only way that I can begin to try and process that is England as you know does not have the best reputation for good food. So.

44:25.90
Kev Harrison
The home of yellow food.

44:33.44
Michael David Wilson
If you had just eaten kind of the typical unseasoned unsalted food that you can get in some diners and half -hearted establishments you know I'm saying some I'm not saying oh.

44:46.98
Kev Harrison
This is taking me back to my childhood of having mashed potato which was literally just potatoes with nothing added apart from water then boiled until they dissolved into like a mush and then I because I thought I hated mashed potatoes for like 15 years of my life then I had like real mash.

44:52.30
Michael David Wilson
Right? Yeah, his life. Yeah.

45:04.94
Michael David Wilson
Exactly So this is what I'm saying but perhaps these people that hate food. They just haven't had really good food yet because like once you learn about.

45:05.72
Kev Harrison
With like butter and salt and good stuff and I was like what the hell is this.

45:16.30
Kev Harrison
Okay. Are you.

45:21.51
Michael David Wilson
Good food once you learn about like different pairings of herbs and spices like for me, it really opened up in terms of what I can cook you know and but um, but beforehand it. It can be quite mundane or bland. So I would.

45:29.80
Kev Harrison
Yeah for sure for sure.

45:39.13
Michael David Wilson
Heard suggest and hope you know those people who they seem to not like food is that you just you haven't had the right food yet but keep keep going but I yeah yeah, keep eating you'll find something eventually. But I do think that.

45:42.79
Kev Harrison
They're just inexperienced. Keep plugging away.

45:57.36
Michael David Wilson
You know we're talking about travel and going to different places I mean food is a big part of that experience and you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly I mean if I think about what makes like a country.

46:04.80
Kev Harrison
Of culture right.

46:15.40
Michael David Wilson
Unique food has to be up there and obviously the kind of sightseeing and the architecture but food food has to be in in the top 5 if not the top 3.

46:26.76
Kev Harrison
Absolutely yeah, yeah for sure sure So I'm a strong believer in that as well.

46:32.18
Michael David Wilson
But did you find that you know in living in Turkey and indeed in researching this book. Did you learn more about Islam and islamic culture.

46:50.47
Kev Harrison
Well, I'm still very much an atheist. Um, obviously um I kind of like read for example, things about how um you know like ah the the process of things like exorcism that kind of stuff. Um I decided quite deliberately not to go down the exorcism route spoiler small spoiler. Um, and that kind of will become apparent for anyone that reads the book. Um. And I think that's as much sending not because of the fact that it's you know set in an islamic world situation. It's more just that I feel like so many exorcisms have already been done and like unless you to do something really different with it then I don't really see the value in it. Um, I also really liked as well. There's a book that I read and I can't remember the title now but it's in the afterword I mentioned any afterword I think it's called like um the motivation of the vengeful g or some of that and that was a really eyeopening thing to me because it really talks about you know what. The beliefs are around the will of ah the jin and yeah, even in islamic culture. There's ah, there's a great belief that these things are Prehuman have been around for thousands of thousands of years um and I think a lot of that belief system comes from.

48:21.86
Kev Harrison
Pre-islamic Pre-christian Even you know, kind of ah myth and Legend. So um, yeah, So I So I kind of learned as much as anything more about sort of like folklore perhaps of the near East rather than the. Sort of scripture of the religion if you know what I mean.

48:45.92
Michael David Wilson
And yeah, yeah, and that makes sense and I mean I wonder in terms of the writing and we could include the research as Well. What. Do you think were the easiest and the hardest things about writing this specific story.

49:05.91
Kev Harrison
I mean maybe the answer to this question is the same one. Um, when I when I wrote when I when I planned the book. Um I planned for ah the 2 gentlemen in the book. To go to see Dennis who is the expert. The scriptural expert at the beginning when the curse is first placed on them. Mrs is very early doors spoiler. So don't worry if you're listening and thinking oh he's ruining the book I'm not ruining the book. Um, and the plan was they would talk to this lady she would give them some info and off they pop to do their thing. And this is going to sound like such a wangy thing to say but as I was writing like she just showed up outside of the apartment before they left and I was like oh okay, like literally was not in the plan for her to come along but she just came along and that obviously yeah, you've read the book you understand how pivotal she is to the the dynamism of the book like the direction of travel of the story and so the idea that I originally had was very much thrown up in the air and kind of reconstructed but in such a way that like that character had such um. Yeah, suppose a dynamic impact on what I was writing that as much as it kind of threw my plans up into the wind. It also kind of probably made it easier to write in some ways because ah she made it more propulsive for me if that makes sense.

50:39.80
Michael David Wilson
And oh yeah, absolutely and I mean we spoke before to a number of writers about this dichotomy or this difference in approach between planning or pantsing or some sort of hybrid in between.

50:57.95
Michael David Wilson
And it would sound like for you or at least particularly with this story that you have a similar approach to me in that you will plan it out but there is flexibility baked in for.

51:11.32
Kev Harrison
Um, yeah.

51:14.96
Michael David Wilson
You know changes or for a character to say Actually we're not going in this direction. So yeah, yeah is is that your typical way of doing things and since having Novellas and Novels commissioned and having publishing deadlines has that shifted your approach to storytelling and story planning.

51:40.95
Kev Harrison
I mean I think my first novella the balance I wrote completely pansed a hundred but it was a time you know I wrote half of that during the story a week challenge where I was very much kind of just finding my feet as a writer experimenting doing different things and this kind of just grew out of. An idea for a short story that just wasn't possible to finish in a short story length. Um, but then when I came to writing other long form stuff even as early as below in 2019 I wrote that I suppose or 20 Yeah 20192020 um even then I felt like I needed to have. At least some kind of guide ropes to follow. You know, like along the path. Um, so I don't really ever make a kind of meticulous plan scene by scene but I kind of have things where I say to myself. Okay, they need to do this and they need to do this and they need to do this in order to reach the conclusion. Um, and then how they get from point a to b to c to d is kind of more go with the flow. It's interesting actually because the the book I'm writing at the moment is the first one I've written long form set in the Uk. Um, and that's got to point of view protagonists who are sisters. And that I've been a bit more belligerent with the structure and it's not really necessarily to do with the time. It's just that I have a very clear idea immediately that I conceived of it of where I wanted it to go. So I think this is an outlier rather than.

53:16.73
Kev Harrison
Necessarily a change of approach.

53:19.61
Michael David Wilson
A feelor I haven't seen much fiction of yours. That's really rooted in the U K So as soon as you said that I'm immediately intrigued, especially as.

53:36.60
Kev Harrison
It's very political Michael it's very political.

53:38.86
Michael David Wilson
Well I want to go there. What what can you tell us about it.

53:42.70
Kev Harrison
So well. Basically it's about 2 sisters. 1 of them is a spirit painter. Do you know what? they is.

53:50.60
Michael David Wilson
I a spirit painter I'm not a hundred percent sure I mean I can guess from. You know the description but rather than me imagine it that that wasn't that wasn't the guess. But why don't you tell me.

53:57.95
Kev Harrison
What they do is they paint spirit that already. Um, um, so it's ah it's a specific type of a psychic medium again I don't believe in this but I find it fascinating as a concept. Um, and so basic psychic medium that um. That they go into trances but instead of like talking to you know the family of the dead or whatever the dead paints through them. Um, and there's some really interesting ones. You can find actually online who like share their work and stuff like some of them even have Etsy pages which the one in my in my book does as well and where they get like spritz comes and they invite them in they paint something you know like oh this is. My childhood dog and then they say it. Oh this is the childhood dog of like a 9 year old girl who died in a train crash. You know whatever then people go out. Oh that's lovely I want to vi that um, whatever and to each their own. But anyway, she's happily doing that in the new forest which is a spooky spooky place if you're not from the Uk if you ever want to go somewhere where there are. Just like horses tramping about and like proper darkness which you don't really get a lot in the Uk. So it's a lovely lovely place but also very creepy and basically our sister um is someone who has been helping refugee charities in the mediterranean for about a decade and then. The Uk. Ah we have at the moment we have a a most unlovely government who's ah about 40% of their press conferences are performed behind a lectern with a sign saying stop of the boats where they want to stop refugees coming into the country because.

55:31.19
Kev Harrison
Think that's the biggest deal which you know just mind-bending. But anyway this girl who's been this lady who's been helping refugees in the Mediterranean basically sees this kind of thing happening and decides she wants to come back because you know the fight is no longer in Greece and italy where it was before she feels like. Can go home and do more good to protect people who are vulnerable there but when she arrives her sister has painted someone who has apparently spontaneously combusted. Um, obviously she has no control over it because it's the spirit that makes her paint it and then. Next day a right wing Tv journalist an invered commas turns out to have been horrifically burned in exactly the same fashion and it kind of only steps up from there and it's very like I say it's very political. It's very ah anti this. Kind of like incredibly increasingly depressing ah othering of refugees and demonizing even of refugee populations which we're seeing in the Uk at the moment. Ah, but. Kind of revolves around the people involved in shaping that policy and that public opinion being burned and I know why? but obviously readers will have to pick up the book when it comes out hopefully next year and see why.

57:00.57
Michael David Wilson
This is insane This really escalated to spontaneous combustion very quickly indeed. Oh.

57:11.66
Kev Harrison
It's not sptanious combustion I can definitely confirm that. But yeah, all will become clear.

57:19.10
Michael David Wilson
I'm yeah I Really want to read this one. Do you have a kind of completion date. Do you have a publisher involved in this one.

57:19.94
Kev Harrison
Okay.

57:27.16
Kev Harrison
This is one of the ones that's going to licon valley as one the the the folkloreric novellas because there is a folklore background to it. Um I would love to get it out before the Uk election this autumn. So I'm like. Feverishly working away at the the draft at the moment I've been reading this actually a lot with my face-to-face writing group in lisbon and I mean I I've been reading a lot more generally because I I want to kind of as I said you know I get a bit kind of nervous about reading with an audience. So I'm trying to kind of give myself more courage with that and um.

57:57.65
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

58:03.12
Kev Harrison
All the things I've read to them. This is the one where like this book generally the response from them has been like everybody really paying full attention and lots of comments afterwards. So I feel like it's definitely got something. Ah so yeah I'm hoping that I can.

58:21.80
Kev Harrison
Shape it together before I go away for the summer in the Uk and maybe they'll get their editors on it while I'm there.

58:26.39
Michael David Wilson
Right? And I understand that there's quite a lot of political turmoil in portugal at the moment as well. So it's perhaps something that is relatable at least thematically.

58:38.38
Kev Harrison
Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, we've just had an election where the third biggest party by some sizeable margin was basically an anti-imration sort of right-w wing semi-fascist kind of party. You know, very anti even anti women's rights which you know like I mean how can that. How can I even be a thing in 2024 and yet and yet.

59:02.77
Michael David Wilson
And it's interesting too because I mean personally and in your personal life I know that you're a very political person for want of better phrasing. It's something that you're very passionate about it's something that you. Follow Strongly I mean in in many ways. It's almost like an obligation as a human being to be following what is going on but it doesn't always feature at least so overtly in your writing. So.

59:22.16
Kev Harrison
I.

59:39.75
Michael David Wilson
It feels like this is the one where you're like not only are we getting political if we're going to do it that this is political sploitation as it were This is everything in the basket setting the basket on fire.

59:49.94
Kev Harrison
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna burn it all down.

59:59.20
Michael David Wilson
Throwing it in a nuclear reactor. You're not messing about with this one.

01:00:03.23
Kev Harrison
No absolutely I feel I feel like that's maybe as well because like I don't know I mean like the way like for example in you know, offsea in italy. There's quite a right-wing populist government at the moment hungryary sort of right wing populist government for a long time. Um and across. Much of the the world that we inhabit I think we're seeing more and more of this lean to the right, especially in terms of like social ah policy. You know like um like I say clamping down women's rights clamy down at lgbt rights. Um, ah you know people of color being. Ah, well progress. We've made in trying to help people of color to be better represented and better just better able to live like a good life. You know a lot of that we're seeing people trying to backtrack against that and and I I feel as well like. Really feel like we are heading obviously with some of the climate issues we have but also global inequality this kind of thing we're heading to situation where probably we're going to see more not fewer refugees and I feel like if we're already demonizing the ones we have now what is the end game when 1015 years down the line we have. 3 4 5 six seven times the number coming in that we have now which is almost certainly going to happen. Um, and this really scares me, you know, like the whole kind of ah yeah, using language like invasion or dehumanizing language about people who just are desperate. Basically I find this deeply concerning and I feel like we're not even at the end game yet and I don't really even want to think about where that is and so this book is kind of full of all of my rage about that.