Video show notes

00:00.18
Michael David Wilson
Chris, welcome to this is horror podcast.

00:03.69
Chris
Thank you so much I'm really happy to be here I've been listening to you guys for a long time.

00:08.25
Michael David Wilson
That is great to hear and we are so happy to have you here and as you may anticipate I Want to know what somebody alley life lessons were that you learnt growing up.

00:22.50
Chris
Oh yeah, like I mean like overall or that might have driven me towards writing horror or writing it all or just the things that stand out to me.

00:35.34
Michael David Wilson
Absolutely anything that stands out during those formative years.

00:41.20
Chris
I think I think as far as if I took something away from my childhood. It was and I don't know exactly where I got it from but i. Had a very strong sense of self early on even though I didn't quite know who I was if that makes sense. So. In other words I I think that I didn't. Get close to really knowing exactly who I was probably until my 30 s probably until I had my my daughter at 38? Um, I'm still learning about myself. but but I think what really formed who I am going forward was. Early in life I kind of had a pretty good sense of the type of person I wanted to be and so um, that kind of guided my conduct and my decisions even though I could you know I certainly made. Lots of mistakes along the way thinking that was who I was and then going no, that's not who I am at all. Um, but always being really self-observant I think is if there's 1 thing I could like take and put in my daughter's head.

02:13.84
Chris
Would be be self-observant ah observe yourself in the context of other people and reflect on what you're doing and the decisions you're making and how you're acting and treating others I think that 1 thing. Can lead to a happy life.

02:33.84
Michael David Wilson
And so I did not expect that we were going to go this people philosophical early doors. But this is the way that it's panned out so I want to know I mean you said when you were growing up. You had a good sense as to who you wanted to be.

02:53.58
Michael David Wilson
So who who did you want to be what did you want to be and then you said that it was only really when you were 38 that you had a sense as to who you were who you are so who are you who did you want to be and how closely did those 2 things align. And who would you want to be in the future.

03:16.93
Chris
Well I I'll tell you what I've gone from when I was a kid I wanted to be good at everything right away. Um and got very frustrated and could be a little asshole. Um, if if I wasn't good at something right away and I had I had very good parents I have very good parents are still alive. Um, but the 1 thing I could have had I would have you know, looking back welcomed I think. Was a little more emphasis on hey we just we just took you to the bowling alley and you're throwing a fit because you keep throwing gutter balls. Um, do you practice. This is this something that you do like are you interested in this because if this is something that you practice at. Then you know, maybe you might expect to improve but you're not practicing this. Why are you throwing a fit like this is just for fun and that lesson of repetition and practice and expecting to fail I wish I had learned that earlier. Um. Now I definitely learned it as I became an adult and it was a much longer trip for me. Um, it was both through writing and art first with visual art first um in doing that where I really had to learn patience kind of like blunt force.

04:50.93
Chris
Patience because I wasn't going to get better unless I was patient and just kept working at it. So but that lesson in ah and about 2007 so I was 31 I decided I was really really going to actually put a lot of time and effort into art.

05:10.74
Chris
Even though I'd always done it and that took a lot of hours and a lot of time but I saw the progress and I saw that with practice you can't get worse which is kind of an interesting concept if you think about it. Like people always talk about hey practice makes perfect all these things but the thing I noticed most is that what I realized was with practice. You really can't get Worse. You're always going to get incrementally better and learning that with that skill. I took that and I applied it to actual life and just going you know if I'm patient about developing better personal habits with just being more self-aware and practicing. Being a better person whenever I can I I can actually be that person I Want to be um and so and then later when I started writing I applied it to writing So I mean patience and being self-aware and trying to be observant. Of how you're acting those things man I think they can take you very far in life if you if you're serious about them. You know I Hope that kind of answered your question.

06:32.89
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and so it it it does and much like many things on this is horror it spirals and infinite amount of more questions and I mean I know that in previous interviews you have spoken. About in terms of becoming a better writer or a successful writer rather than having some innate skill.. It is really about hours at the Keyboard. So I Want to talk a little bit. About that and linked into that I'm wondering what your writing routine looks like because I'm aware too that you are a trial attorney. So I mean that that's not you know, an easy. Job. That's not like your kind of shift work where you clock in and you clock out that is going to be pretty Consuming. So How are you logistically doing this.

07:35.55
Chris
Well things have changed over the last few years but um to kind of to kind of back up a little bit I started writing late I it it's you know I've told this story a few times.

07:52.30
Chris
But I still like I still kind of like hesitate when I'm going to talk about it because I feel so out of place in some ways because you know I've listened to hundreds of your episodes guys I've listened to hundreds of others and most of the time. Most of the time the story when you hear another writer is I knew from Childhood I knew this was what I was going to do I was always a big reader I always wrote I knew I was going to write in some capacity whether you know whether it was going to be professional or not whatever but they knew they're going to be a writer I Absolutely did not. And and sometimes I feel a little bit fish out of water because I you know it caused me to have some self-doubt when I did decide I think I want to write um and I really had to get kind of over a lot of you know, sort of a. Additional layer of imposter syndrome which is can you even build the skills and your craft that you need to to the point of people wanting to read your stuff if you haven't done it your whole life right now. The answer is certainly yes, but where most people. Have kind of had that in their in their history. Ah, most of the writers that you'll talk to are you here here on podcasts. Um, boy they've had a whole life of training both reading and writing and I kind of had neither and and what I mean by that is.

09:28.95
Chris
You know I in about 2015 I had been practicing law for about 15 years um being a trial lawyer traveling all over the country and representing people who most of them have cancer from. Companies doing bad things and 99.9 percent of them dying because of the type of cancer. It is and um I was reading a lot of I was really into like nonfiction stuff like some history stuff. A lot of science like a ton of science I would pick up scientific american and read it cover to cover and understand a solid 8% of what I was reading. You know like a solid 8 to 9% um, but what that was doing I realized later. When I really started writing was that was kind of filling the tank. Um because I ended up using a lot of that. Um in a lot of my writing but I um traveled around the country trying cases for 20 years up until 2020 in the pandemic. The last case I tried was in New Brunswick New Jersey against Johnson And Johnson we got a three quarter of a billion dollar verdict now that has since been the courts automatically reduce it and then that case was sent back for a retrial on different issues and then there was a.

11:01.51
Chris
Were settlements and all this stuff but before that ever happened we tried the case pandemic hit and I for about 5 years prior to that I had wanted out really bad. Um. Have one daughter I wanted to be present as a father. The stress was immense and um to the point where and I don't I don't say this in jest at all. But like there were some mornings where I would walk from the hotel to the courthouse. And I would think maybe if I just got clipped by a bus not dead. But just you know clipped by one then I would have an excuse not to do this anymore like that's that's where my head was at and because I I needed to get out and in. Summer of 2020. We ended up settling a bunch of our cases and I saw kind of ah a way out and I have um I still am a trial lawyer I still am at my firm but I'm phasing out of the practice and and I would be doing that whether I was writing or not. Because that was just my time that was a level of a level of burnout that I don't think I'll ever recover from so the pandemic was almost a force sabbatical. Um, because no one was trying cases the you know the courts were all closed and that was for the better part of a year and a half or so um.

12:32.26
Chris
The writing started. This is so it's so dumb and some many wayss I went to see in January of 2015 I went to see the movie interstellar and it was the first movie. My wife and I saw after our daughter was born. It was like she was like nine months old and I love that movie. Have you guys seen that movie. Yeah right? So like it's so good and I came back from that and my mind was just blown absolutely blown and I immediately went on Amazon and I bought a book.

12:52.18
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:54.21
Bob Pastorella
That man's incredible.

13:09.20
Chris
Called the science of interstellar by Kip Thorne who is an astrophysicist at I think jet propulsion laboratories and it's like it's this book that basic basically explains the black hole they built in interstellar and they built it using you know. Legit scientific principles and in fact, published all these peer reviewed papers because it they actually made several discoveries about black hole behavior long story short I was like people should write science fiction is that a thing science fiction people should write science fiction about outer space. Okay, this this is my mindset and of course I'm exaggerating but I was like I want to write stories about outer space and that's how it started for me in January of 2015 I was like I'm going to write like a middle grade story about outer space. Ten months later I had 98000 word novel that I thought was middle grade 98000 words like I've since learned that's not the right word count for middle grade. Um and the agents that I queried. They told me that too and um I got a couple nibbles but I that I had the bug. And at that time I was still practicing full time so at that time I was mainly writing at night. But then and I don't know exactly how old you guys are I'm 48 now but about Twenty Sixteen Twenty seventeen my ability to write at night I just my brain stopped working.

14:43.24
Chris
And so I would write late at night and then I'd just be writing like this is not work and like these words are not good and I went to kind of writing more in the morning but now that I'm semi out of the law practice most days I'm away from the office. I'm either at home or if my dogs are going crazy I'm in a coffee shop and I write every day I've written every day since twenty since 2015 because I knew 1 thing for sure I had to play catch up if I was going to be serious about this I had to. Develop these skills quickly and so I've written every day since January of 2015 every day and this wasn't like some. It was interesting. It was just right place right? time as far as this kind of passion striking me I guess and I also realized I needed to play catch up in a big way. And my reading because yes, sure I read some fiction throughout my life but most of it was like nonfiction stuff and last thing I'll say about that is you know there's a. Every now and then you hear this sentiment people are like there's so much to learn about our world. Why would you ever read fiction as opposed to nonfiction and I'll tell you I've read I've learned more about human nature reading fiction than I have about nonfiction because it's an exploration. You can learn about what people have done.

16:15.11
Chris
But it's a Discovery. It's an exploration and in fiction and so I've just read constantly and written constantly ever since then because I was like there's no way I will be able to have a career unless I get my skills up to Snuff. So I I really ramped it up. Quick as I could.

16:34.37
Michael David Wilson
So and so now you're writing every morning is that right is there is there a specific time slot.

16:44.10
Chris
Yeah, so I'll write every morning after I get up um for a while I was doing like 5 to seven thirty in the morning. Um, and I'm kind of taking a break from that now I'm doing like six thirty to 8 and then I take my daughter to school.

17:01.31
Chris
I Might um, mow the lawn or do some yard work and then ah I might go do one of the various ah physical things I do i' kind of ah I jump around I think I pro I'm probably undiagnosed ad H d.

17:20.80
Chris
But as gemma a moor once said she described it as and it was the first time I've heard this she described adh d as because I've always suspected it that I had it. She described it as a surplus of focus and that was the first time I went wait. That's me because I do finish everything. But I'm like I'm focusing on this and then I'm like oh I can go focus on this over here and this over here. So my days are like that. So I might go I might mow the lawn and then go eat lunch and then go do yoga or you know jujitsu or play. On the weekends play um touch rugby I used to play full contact rugby now I play a version called touch. But it's it's like the frag flag. It's like the flag football version of rugby. It's a little easier on your um concussion protocol. Ah.

18:03.15
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah.

18:14.26
Michael David Wilson
Um, yeah, yeah, and in terms of yeah yeah, and with the reading is that more an evening activity.

18:16.20
Chris
And then I'll write throughout the day you know it is. It's it's everything I can do to keep my eyes open um because unlike my my poor wife like she can't sleep. My problem is I sleep. I can sleep too easily. So even even during my legal career I'd go get on a plane to have to fly somewhere I'd have 3 or 4 hours and I'm like okay and get a lot of work done. The next thing I know I'm waking up in the planes landing. Um. So so we have the we have the opposite problem so I can I probably read you know 45 minutes a night till my eyes are clicking open. You know.

18:56.86
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and and are you typically reading 1 book at a time and I can imagine Bob taking that really literally and I can see on the video.

19:12.81
Michael David Wilson
Obviously I mean do you have more than one book on the go at the same time. Not literally right? here's Stephen Graham Jones and here's Lolita. Yeah, oh no.

19:20.30
Chris
Yeah, that would be that would be a pretty interesting talent. You know to double fist the book right? Um, right? Um, but but I for the most part I go from one to the next but I have a pile probably 20 books high. Next to my chair upstairs where I read and I'm in the process of reading all those and I will finish all of those but I read a lot for blurbs now and I also read I also read a lot of friends manuscripts. So when those come in I sort of put down everything and I'll read a book if i. Need to blurb it or I'll read a friend's manuscript because those of course are a little more time sensitive if they're looking to get it to their agent or they're querying or whatever. So I read a lot of books that I can't go on good reads and you know give it 5 stars because you know full disclosure if you wrote a book.

20:08.90
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

20:14.60
Chris
You deserve 5 stars. So all my ratings on good reads are 5 stars. So just you know if you want real in depth don't look at my reviews.

20:20.55
Michael David Wilson
Okay, and I mean in terms of playing caps up with reading if we forget for a moment the blabbing and the reading for friends. How do you balance reading. You know work that's coming out right now. Fantastic writers like Johnny Compton and Gemara Moore and v castro how do you balance that with just going back to some of the classics.

20:53.39
Chris
That is that's such an awesome question because I I am trying to do that and so like I just finished spithouse by Johnny Compton which was awesome. Um, so it's probably 80 % more recent stuff 20% if I had to like look at the bookshelf right? like so I just read I don't know you you wouldn't call it a classic but it's an older book. It's like 20 years old I just read? Um, ah come closer by Sarah Gran which is like 20 years old you know and yeah, the thumbs up. Bob yeah, like.

21:23.14
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

21:29.77
Chris
That that that book was awesome. Totally awesome. Um, so I'll sprinkle them in and if they're smaller It's a little easier to just punch one in there. But of course you know I have I've been very open about this as a matter of you know I've already told you that I started later. You know I didn't grow up reading Stephen King my mom did but I was too I was too afraid I was totally chicken about horror stuff. The 1 thing I would do as a kid was I would go into the grocery store with my mom. And she would park me in front of the magazines because that's where I wanted to be and I would dig fangoria up and all the movie monster magazine and I would look through them and scare the crap out of myself. But I loved it. But I was scared enough that I never pulled any of her horror books off the shelf whereas. You hear so many other writers tell the story that that's exactly what they did I didn't know I was too scared and so I didn't grow up reading Stephen King I've read on writing that's all. And in fact I um I'm trying to like play ketchup now I have pet cemetery. I'm like a hundred pages into that. That's one of that's one of the 20 books in the stack right? and I also just picked up it because you know Neil Mcrobert like really got on to me about not reading it. It's like his favorite. You know so favorite favorite book in the world.

22:57.34
Chris
And so I have that now I literally bought that last week at a bookstore and um, but it's just it's it's very interesting because I'm used to today's pacing in books I'm not used to the pacing from the 80 s and ninety s it's a totally different feel and you know i. I read a ghost story by Peter Straub um you know around Christmas time and again a totally different type of pacing. It's immersive right? I mean you you feel so much more of the world. But at the same time you just kind of have to hunker down and plow through those. And you'll be rewarded, but it's a totally different experience. So I'm you know I'm going back and dipping in and getting that and like you know I just I just listened to an episode about Carrie and now I'm going to go read Carrie I mean I knew what happened and Carrie but I'm going go read Carrie and some shorter ones. And maybe I'll be able to ramp up to it. You know.

23:59.78
Michael David Wilson
Let's say if you want to get through as much Stephen King as possible then you can take a strategic approach and you can go for things like carry and joy land and the short stories and then you you.

24:11.84
Michael David Wilson
Adding to your numbers as to how many king books you've read. But if you start with the stand. It's like them you you could have read like what 5 carries in that time. So you oh yeah, yeah.

24:17.70
Chris
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well and it is a monster as well. but but um but that one you know I've seen you know so many authors talk about that one and it's just you know and I saw the first part of the movie like which I loved. The first part of the recent the more recent one which I loved um and I don't think I don't feel spoiled at all I feel like I want to see that world now as told by by him in the book and I'm really excited about it. It's just I just need to get to it because I've got so much other stuff I have to have to read it's kind of like every time I get one off my list. A new one comes in. Yeah.

24:56.38
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and it is interesting. Yeah, because you're reading all of these books for the first time now you're perhaps in a better position to actually really comment on the difference in terms of the structure and. Pacing because you know for for people I guess like me and Bob we've got to almost recall hang on what was it like back then but I I guess you know I mean things were a kind of slower burn to talk in more general terms and. If we're to and to comment on why that is I wonder if part of it is because we're in this attention economy we're in this position where you've got on-demand Tv shows and movies and. Netflix and things like that. So every time you're sitting down to read a book I mean you're not just competing with other books. You're competing with every other sort of form of attention and entertainment and I mean would you think that is part of why the pacing. Has shifted or do you have any other insights into that.

26:15.71
Chris
Um, if I well I think that's I think clearly that's one of the reasons if not the main reason is and it's amazing right? There's so much good media if you like Tv and movies. It's.

26:31.70
Chris
It's not like there's 24 channels on the Tv or even 200 channels right? All those streamers are putting out like insanely good stuff and and you know we just finished watching showgun I mean that blew our minds like it was so good and. I get but I get 1 hour a night like we put our daughter to bed. We'll watch a show for an hour a night and then I go read and go to sleep. Um I think that's 1 reason is there's so much in attention spans are so short I think another reason is and it's probably a positive reason is.

27:10.30
Chris
You know, ah like I it's my my feel that in the 80 s and ninety s there were a lot fewer people publishing books a lot fewer names. Um like take horror for example, right? Um, and. It's open to a much wider audience now I think and so you know a publisher can now go well I can publish this 1400 word you know word book or I could publish 7 two hundred ah two hundred page books. You know this 1400 page book versus. You know, 7 from 7 different people and I can make more money that way because like you know the cost of 7 books versus 1 large one and also the practical concern that now at least over the last four or five years paper is. Worth its weight in gold. Ah you know publishers don't for the most part unless you're Stephen King or a few others Sarah J Moss some others they don't want to spend a fortune on your book in paper and so. You know that's why you see these sort of they seem kind of arbitrary when people say okay if you're going to write a fantasy. Don't make it longer than 130000 words you know if the sweet spot for horror is like less than 85000 you know, um, there are of course exceptions to that.

28:43.43
Chris
But I think a lot of it is paper price and also there's more people doing it and so from the Publisher's perspective. Perhaps it gives them more diversity in their portfolios to what they're selling you know, but I mean I'm not in I'm not on their side of it. So I don't know for sure. But that's certainly something I've.

29:00.41
Bob Pastorella
I think it's it's all of what we're talking about. But 1 thing that I've noticed too is that it seems like a lot of literature especially genre literature in particular.

29:15.68
Bob Pastorella
And I've noticed this over the last you know couple decades is that it's actually controlled by or it's tempered by what kind of film media that we have um if you notice like the like if you look at the seventy s horror. It was a little bit more quiet. It was a little bit more you know, engaged a little bit more immersive and the films were not very you know, especially especially american cinema it wasn't that hard hitting. Okay and then as as the time goes on it got more and more ramped up. And then if you you know sticking with horror if you look in the 80 s then you had these, you know, really classic film Friday the thirteenth you know comes out in nightmare on m street and you have these groundbreaking films which also gave rise to splatterpunk which basically said hey we don't have to take you know. 50 pages to get going. We can get going right now and I can still give you a character that you've never seen before who's on the fringes of society and it say something about society at the same time I can still have a literature approach to this but I can give you action right now and if you want gore you got it. And so we've seen that it's funny because people talk about Clive Barker being part of that splatter prompt crew that original crew and he was but if you read like especially like books of blood things like that his writing was so high up.

30:41.81
Bob Pastorella
Compared to everyone else. It was like it was pure it's pure literature you know ah you read his stories and it's like you get this this visceral sense this this gore and everything but you could put him up against any of the greatest writers that we've ever had and his his ah ah command of language was just incredible. So. And now we have shorter stories ah novellas are making it back and it's like why is that because Tv is King Movies aren't doing what Tv are doing right now and Tv is short episodic um. You know you have limited series you have series that go five six seven too long too long walking dead ah too long. You know, just way too long dragging it out. Ah and so the the mindset is is hey if you have a great character or something like that. Let's string this guy out for 5 or 6 books. You know? and so and ah in it. That's great I like that but to me I think a lot of it has to go with what people are actually you know what? what people are buying and buying these these movies and streaming and things like that you know when when walking dead sopranos well Sopranos and especially like breaking bad. We've we we've seen that Tv is is King and and it it has tempered our world view of fiction. Especially Johnre fiction and I think ah is that a good thing or bad thing I don't know.

32:11.40
Bob Pastorella
But I mean just we have to adapt and that's that's where it's at.

32:16.89
Chris
I I agree with you at the same time I'm a big believer in the pendulum like I think I I think that you know trends right? Um, you know that that were well. It will probably be generation z.

32:33.98
Chris
That revolts against the short time attention span. It will probably be them. Um and you know we'll see them. We'll see them so you know shove off the social media and you know ah start walking around with you know, copies of it in the stand. Um, because. Because it will almost be I say that you know ingest, but but not totally because it's sort of like you know how we see as you get older. You see the rediscovery of different trends from twenty thirty years ago and I can I can see that it could become. More of a trend to go. You know what? I'm going to do I'm going to dive into this tome and I'm going to explore this and I'm going to share this with my friends and go wow people used to read this. This is actually so cool. You know like ah, a short-term archaeologist but I do I do think these things tend to be a little bit of a pendulum and so.

33:31.22
Chris
You know, even now there are still some you know some big books that come out and that demand more space just because of the story that are that you know that are very successful but um, certainly I mean like in my own writing so far my my published books have all been around I don't know. Three hundred fifty to four hundred pages or so um, but I did just write a novella that you know we're going to see about trying to get that published somewhere. Um because that's just what the story called for and it's it's 160 pages but it's funny because also you know you brought up Clive Barker read the hellbound heart last summer okay now I know like I know like people who actually read their whole lives have read that decades ago. But for me, it was last summer and um, you know it says a novel on it and I'm like this is not a novel. This is a novella. You know by today's standards um because it's like you know 150 pages or whatever. Um, so I just thought that I just think that's funny and the novella is a relatively new thing at least as far as the parlance goes and seeing it really catch on. Um, and I'm really enjoying it I like taking I like taking some horror in. You know, bite size pieces sometimes but I think the novel is essential to explore you know some things call for it. Some things call for a deeper exploration or deeper characterization.

35:00.47
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, the the pendulum was definitely swinging back I mean we got big books like ah the deluge by ah Markley ah the ah the one by Mariana and riquez that came out. We've got some really big books and I think part of that too is like we have dune.

35:02.48
Chris
Yeah, right.

35:17.33
Bob Pastorella
Being made into two films and then you have young viewers go where did this come from and they're like oh wow this guy Frank Keepeber he wrote this book. Well, it's a big book but i'mma give it a shot you know and it's not really a big book by by our. You know, especially those of us like me and Michael been reading you know it's like it and things like that. It's not a big book like that. But it's a big It's it's sticker in what you would normally buy on a bookshelf now and so that's bringing people back. Also so you depend them is swinging and I'm I'm all for big books. Especially if the story fits it. You know, um, main shoot I mean talk heaslings you know Devil's Creek is is a big book you know and he and he wrote that specifically it's like hey I had a lot of story.

35:52.51
Chris
Oh yeah.

36:04.91
Bob Pastorella
So you know he goes I knew it was goingnna big book I knew it was gonna be tough to publish but you know he's he's he got it done and ah you know based you kind of inspired by you know, Salem's lot and ah, which is not really a big book but still yeah, the pendulum is is.

36:21.80
Chris
yeah I mean and and look like you know the proof that a story calls for a big book is where you read a giant big book and you're like yeah finish that that didn't feel like a big book. You know like.

36:23.24
Bob Pastorella
Coming back a little bit. It's going to take a while. But yeah yay for big books.

36:40.27
Chris
A good example I think is wanderers by Chuck Wendig you know I'm I'm not I'm not a fast reader but that book it's like 900 pages and I just crushed that book because it was so propulsive and I love it when like you get a giant you know doorstoper and it's a propulsive book.

36:42.99
Bob Pastorella
Oh yeah.

36:58.88
Chris
And you know and and you're like yeah clearly there was nothing to cut here at all. It all worked. Um, So yeah, yeah, So I think I think I think it's great that we have some big fat tubs of book still accessible to us as. As hot as Novellas. Are you know.

37:18.10
Bob Pastorella
Ah.

37:18.47
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and you mentioned that you've got a novella that you're looking at shopping around at the moment with your agent and so I mean in terms of your agent in terms of your writing Journey. You said you got the writing bug in 2015 but How did it go from that to getting the agent and releasing the phlebotomist during the pandemic via Angry robot.

37:48.90
Chris
Yeah, so good. Question. So I I was one of 2 people that year in 2019 that got through angry robots open doors. So I didn't have an agent. In. In fact, so I had shelved the phlebotomist because Thelebotom is as funny as this is you know everyone look the book's been out for 4 years I don't want to spoil anything but it's a book about blood guys. Okay, like read between the lines. Um people said vampires were over. Okay, but that was the that was the story that was in my head. It was a dystopian. They don't like being called vampires. But these people eat blood. Okay um, dystopian vampire story and I had been. The the smartest thing I did was to educate myself about the industry as soon as I decided I wanted to write I went and started reading Janet Reid's blog rest in peace. She died a week ago I think and hundreds and hundreds of posts on her blog which is still up and and aspiring writers should read it. I read 10 of those posts because they're short every day with my coffee every single day and so I had no illusions about what it would take how hard it would be and the work it would take to get to the point of you know trying to become traditionally published and.

39:22.84
Chris
I might never do it and I was like okay, fine because I actually enjoy writing. So if that's what happens so be it and so that we talked about patience earlier I kind of was like all right I really like this. So even if I don't publish anything all right I've done something I enjoy and i. Wrote the phlebotomist I wrote the first draft the idea came into my head the conceit which was a society segregated by blood type and the conceit came into my head one night and two months later I had probably 70000 words it was written and. That was the first draft of course and I spent the next ten months refining it and revising and querying eighty plus agents. But guess what vampires and dystopia in 19 was over it was over right? Of course now we see all these tweets like vampires are back and like. Rachel Harrison so thirsty is coming out and like that all these all these vampire books now. So again again, the pendulum right? This is the pendulum the vampire pendulum um zombies will do the same thing you know, ah, and um so it was basically I just. Was like okay I've queried like literally every agent on the planet. Um I had a couple nibbles. Um, and and also to their defense. Ah you know the book wasn't quite where it needed to be but luckily so.

40:49.48
Chris
On the last day of angry robots open doors thing I saw a tweet from them that was like it's last day you don't need an agent I was like screw it I'll send it so I sent the whatever a query and the first 10 pages or something or 3 chapters and um. Maybe two weeks later they wrote and said you know we like to look at the full and so I sent that and I was just like whatever I've had people ask for the full before you know, no joke so funny. Three months later I I went to trial in New Jersey I was in trial for three months I came home and. Was eating my yogurt and I opened the junk mail on my hot mail and there was the offer to publish the flobotomist in there from angry robots. So I very delicately dragged that from the junk mail into the regular mail and um and it got published and it was. It. It was interesting. There were still several agents out there and I was like I need to get an agent now. So what? What do you do? Um, you know from reading Janet read's you know blog I understood I was like okay take this offer and go to go to different agents and I did and that was such a fun piece of discovery too. Because you know we talked earlier about you know, knowing who you are and I had several agents interested now right? because there was an offer and one of them said well you know now that you've got an offer.

42:25.45
Chris
Why don't we take it wider. Why don't we take this to the big 5 because angry robot has big 5 distribution but they're not a big 5 publisher and um, they said let's take this to the big 5 and and you know and I'm like but you. Wouldn't be talking to me unless they had made me an offer and I felt I just felt that was wrong and like it's it's interesting I I know this is a business I know it can be cutthroat I know people take offers and parlay those into bigger offers but this felt different to me. You know. I had done I had done a voice call or not a voice call video call with Gemma Crefield who has edited all 3 of my books and Eleanor Teasdale um who is managing editor at the time I think and Gemma loved this story. Gemmo was the only person who saw what it needed to become what it ended up being and was willing to really work with it and shape it with me and now I've got this agent saying well you know, let's pull it away from them. Let's see if we could parly it and no better deal. So I said no to that agent. And then a few months went by I I was like man I know I'm a lawyer but I'm not an entertainment lawyer I'm not ah I'm not an agent so I did some research and eventually it looked like a fair contract and looking back. It totally was it was a legitimate. It was their straight up contract I've had since then.

44:01.26
Chris
Um, and I just I signed it to get it done to get the actual deal done and then after that I ended up on the phone with another agent. Um, who ah I won't say who it was only because they might think that this was. This was something they wouldn't want to hear but I thought it was pretty funny. Um I didn't take it as mean, but they were like if you can get the translation rights back then I can be justified in taking it because I can get it translated here here here here. Tried that. And angry robots said well you've already signed the contract and translation writes are a hedge against a new a new writer and so next book you know next time and I was like okay that's totally Fair. So I told this agent I said sorry I tried to get the translation writes back and they were like. Yeah, okay, appreciate it and so we went our separate wayss what that What that agent said was um as they were talking to me about the story. They said you know it's very cinematic. It's it. It's ah it's a fun entertaining story. Your writing is serviceable.

45:18.85
Chris
And I was like awesome awesome I'll take serviceable at this point in my career. Ah and but anyway, ah Gemma then had it. We did a phone call where she had 25 things she wanted me to do. It was a lot and um, fleshing out character fleshing out world building and all of this because I I tended to write very sparsely. Um I like to leave it's it's my it's I err on the side of leaving a lot to the imagination. But I've i've. Become a fleshier writer I guess you can say since then um and it was funny at the end of that conversation I said. Okay so this feels like maybe you want me to add you know about 25 more pages or so and she said no more like a hundred I was like okay um. And then I went back to trial in New Jersey and for the month that I had to do these edits I was in trial during the day and then after court I would prepare for the next day and then from about Eleven thirty at night till 31 or 2 I would revise the phlebotomist. Ah, and um I think I had to ask for like an extra week or two got them the edits and then it came out and um so a few weeks after it came out it was selling well enough that angry robot said do you want to do it in their book and I was like you mean.

46:52.28
Chris
You'll publish another book and that was when I was able to get my first agent Hannah Ferguson Kt literary um and Hannah sold stringers which was a straight up space opera humorous sci-fi lots of dick jokes. Um. Got it. It got a it got a start review from publishers weekly. Um, because it it actually if you if you break through sort of all the potty humor There's some very deep things happening. Um and then Hannah left agenting about I think. Seven or eight months later and thank god for Sarah Megabo at kt literary who who took me on after that which which is kind of funny. It's such a small world because from that middle grade novel I had queried several novels to Sarah and she was always. So nice. She was like I'm going to pass on this but you know I'll be cheering from the sidelines good luck you know and I I remember saying when Hannah left and Sarah took over I remember telling Sarah I was like man I've been orbiting you like a thirsty little planet for you know for years now. So. This makes sense and um so Sarah has been my agent ever since and and she's she's fantastic I mean just very diligent and and ah has really looked out for my career. So I'm I'm very I'm very fortunate in that respect.

48:24.23
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and in terms of those foreign rights have you now had the phlebotomist or perhaps other stories in foreign translation.

48:39.60
Chris
So stringers ah is out in the check in The Czech Republic in fact I've got some copies over there so stringers the the us version looks like this or the world english version looks like this the the check version. I can actually I'm going to get it down. You got to see it. It's hilarious.

48:58.88
Michael David Wilson
All right here we go for audio listeners His's run. He's got the book and here he has his back.

49:04.18
Chris
Okay, I'm back. So so it's it's a jar of space with background of pickles and and there's a pickle on the inside cover and then there's ah and there's a giant pickle on the inside.

49:12.94
Michael David Wilson
Oh Paul Tremblay won't like that.

49:23.73
Chris
And it's called Snorari um, and and they yeah they really there is a there is a jar of pickles. There is an inanimate jar of pickles in this book that for all the reviewers who really liked this book. Their favorite character was probably the jar of pickles.

49:26.23
Michael David Wilson
Ah I get that.

49:43.62
Chris
And so ah, this publisher they're called host. They really understood the marketing here. So for for any pickle lovers. That's the czech republic version and then phlebotomist I don't know what. What efforts if any they put into selling that one that one is just world english and then redemption of Morgan bright so far has been sold. Ah for ah polish translation so that was a few weeks before it came out. It just came out last week and so. Um, I'm not exactly sure when they'll release that. But so far it will be translated into polish.

50:18.88
Michael David Wilson
And so with Morgan bright and with stringers those that are to where angry robot didn't take the foreign rights.

50:29.48
Chris
That's right? So, yeah, so for both stringers and the redemption of Morgan bright my agents at the time kept the foreign translation.

50:38.57
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, I mean people know that we love the stuff that angry robot are doing. They've released so many great books that one of the first publishers of Chuck Wendig as well. But I do find it very very frustrating when a publisher tapes writes and then they don't do anything with it. So I really hope you know that they will because that that's effectively money on the table and it also.

50:54.58
Chris
Yep.

51:10.80
Michael David Wilson
This doesn't make a great deal of sense. It's like well we've got these rights that we're now not selling just like so no, 1 ne's benefiting nobody is getting any money at that point.

51:21.42
Chris
Um I don't know I don't know a lot about the strategy for selling foreign rights. But I do I I kind of have put it together kind of which is you know they have so much bandwidth and the period of time that. Ah, book is going to sell its foreign rights from a traditional publishing standpoint is there's like 3 of these international book fairs. There's like London and bologna and Frankfurt and they have the books there for that year and if they don't sell they just the next year they sell the next batch and so yeah I mean the rights are available but no, one's really out there pushing them. They may have pushed them during its publication year who knows I don't know but that's that's what I've been able to like you know surmise with my divining rod. You know I'm not I'm not on their end of it but it seems kind of like it's a cyclical thing that whatever's coming out that year that's what they're really hustling.

52:23.56
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, well, the good thing is that all contracts. They have an end date I mean I don't think you a lawyer is going to have given away indefinite foreign rights. So I mean hopefully if they don't sell them.

52:34.17
Chris
Now now.

52:41.82
Michael David Wilson
Then when they return to you, You can get them sold via the agent.

52:47.80
Chris
Yeah, they may have already I mean for the philbotoist they may have already reverted back? Um, but again I think I I think I had a conversation with my agent at that on that issue at 1 point and I think what she said was. That year to year they're really only interested at least of those big fares. They're really only interested in what's coming out because to to them. They've already had to look at all the past stuff you know it's just like drink and fire drink from water hose I guess um, but you know the phlebotomist. Has continued to do strangely well, it just sort of steadily sells. Um you know and and I've I've tweeted about this I mean the you know stringers. The second book was was critically got a lot more critical sort of praise than thelebos bottoms got none. Bottomist is a straight up. You know, entertaining adventure. Hopefully it's propulsive front to back. Interesting fun story. It's got a great hot paint cover. Um, but as that as that first agent said you know my writing is serviceable so you know nothing special. But um stringers. You know, got to write up in the guardian and it got a starred review and the flobotomist crushes stringers week to week in sales. Even though it's 2 years older and man that's just the magic of.

54:20.27
Chris
You know, selling books like who knows why I thinklebotomist might be a little more accessible. It's got the pretty cover. Um I do I did learn an important lesson in sort of pitching a book I always pitched the phlebotomist as. You know a near future dystopian or society is segregated by blood type. But when I was when stringers coming out I was just having a grand old time on Twitter talking about how much it was about insects having sex and and all this stuff and as funny as that is I don't think that got readers I wasn't really. Talking about what it was about um and and the the pitch the the pitch as I learned at authorcon as I was selling the book at author con and sold almost every copy I had of stringers at a horror convention I was selling a space opera um was. It's about 2 stoners that get abducted. That's so easy and there are certain people who hear that and they're like yes, that's a fun story. What Harold and Kumar in space kind of you know, um that that was but it was 2 years too late to pitch it correctly and. None of us came up with the correct pitch for it because there was so much going on in that story that we were kind of all over the place. So I have learned my lesson that now every book I write I have a 1 sentence pitch that hopefully has a really good hook in it. Um.

55:50.90
Chris
And I'm thinking about that from the second I sit down to write it to till when we're taking on submission.

55:56.99
Michael David Wilson
Yeah I always try to make sure that when I'm pitching my own books that I'm kind of comparing it I've got comps I've got other things so you know you said Harold and Kumar are in space and often as well. Even though we're writing in the book world.

56:08.62
Chris
Um, yep.

56:16.86
Michael David Wilson
People seem to get it quicker if you do use a movie as a comp even though there will be some people who say never do that. But it just tends to resonate more.

56:26.14
Chris
Yeah I think it does because it's a visual they literally have an idea. It's not just one that they have to conjure for reading the words or remembering how they felt reading the book. They could see it the second you say it? So like you know i'm. I'm 150 words into a new novel and you know I'm kind of describing it as bird box plus the last of us. But it's not zombies. You know it's you know something else, but that's pretty concise and you get a book at well which was also movie.

56:53.29
Michael David Wilson
And you go.

57:03.40
Chris
And you get a Tv show that people love So you know I I will not make the mistake again of not knowing how to pitch the book when it's out in the world.

57:12.71
Michael David Wilson
And yeah, and if we think about the 3 books that you've got I mean they're all they're all kind of in the sci-fi space. But at the same time they're very different so the phlebotomist it's sci-fi horror ringers is. Sci-fi stoner comedy. Let's say the redemption of Morgan bright is definitely not a comedy and is much more in the horror zone of things and then you you mentioned a novella that's a horror you've got a dystopian bird box.

57:51.42
Michael David Wilson
Horror coming out too. So I mean is there a strategy would your agent light there to be a strategy in terms of genre and trying to be in a certain. Area with your fiction or is it a case of these ideas come to you and you know like people like Joe R Lansdale or it may be very very different from book to book and so does genre the distinguishing. Feature. Is you.

58:25.77
Chris
Well, you know I thought that might be when I wrote stringers I thought that might be what I did because it was so different from the phlebotomist and you know in terms of just like marketing like the marketing and industry and everything on the one hand I was like. Well I'd like to be known as someone who changes it up every time but on the other hand all those readers from the philbotomist who love the phlebotomist most of them were not the readers for stringers and so I may have built my readership a little bit by the people who so who read stringers. But a lot of those people were not people who read the phlebotomist I didn't have that carryover now the truth of it is that I believe that and I and I had some friends who read the redemption Morgan bright very early, some a very early manuscript. And they said I think this is where you are I think this is you and um, and and I'm glad they said it because I felt that way and I think I've always aimed at horror because the short fiction I've been writing for six years now

59:40.53
Chris
Virtually all horror. You know there's a couple there's like two sci-fi stories and then there's a couple of weird ones the rest for all horror. So I think I was like naturally going to get there. Um, but you know I had to empty the tank on the. You know the ideas that came into my head earlier and now you know redemption of Morgan bright. You know it's contemporary slash near future. There's you you get some indications that there's a little bit of technology but it's all technology. We have now. Um and. Didn't want to make it a story about the past because I think the the themes are very relevant to the present. Um, but you know the the book we're taking on sub um in the next few weeks or something. Um that one is a straight up. It's a haunt and house story.

01:00:38.80
Chris
Ah, so that one and then there's the then there's the whatever. There's the the next one which might be the Novella which is a which is a ah how how how would I put this see we're talking about the pitch. This one is a.

01:00:55.75
Chris
Dead evil carnival boss trying to resurrect his twilight fair by abducting people through porta-potties. Okay, and it's called shit show and it's a funny you know 80 s style gonzo horror story that takes place in Texas. But that's a novella right? I'm going to try to put that with the right indie publisher. Um, and then there's the the bird box last of us 1 which would again be of a full novel propulsive um straight up horror story. So I think that's where I am now because the 3 projects I've i. Either have finished or I'm working on or all right. There.

01:01:38.75
Michael David Wilson
The Porter Potty Horror Comedy is the book that the stringers fans have been waiting for their life. Yes, finally.

01:01:39.87
Bob Pastorella
That that's that sounds like a goodish book so much I mean it is like is.

01:01:47.90
Chris
that is right? Well the the big it's.

01:01:56.85
Bob Pastorella
I'm like oh man.

01:01:57.15
Chris
It's so funny. You say that it's so funny. You say that because I've talked to max about it and I I said okay max to here's the 2 titles. It's either shit show or it's portal potty which one which one is the better title and he's like it's got to be shit show. He's like because because no one else has 1 called shit show. You'd be the one shit show is it needs to be a title and I was like I kind of agree with you. There's a chapter called portal potty so you know but it is now that I've said it I know.

01:02:23.89
Michael David Wilson
Where you got it. You got to get that out in the world soon now that you've said that on the podcast you you got to be the first one.

01:02:25.61
Bob Pastorella
Um, yeah, that's ah yeah.

01:02:33.71
Chris
I know I got to be the first one so you know, but anybody else now anybody else that if there's another if there's another you know impostor shit show that shows up, they'll all know they'll all know where where it came from but um, that one's that one's written and um and you know I've got a couple I've.

01:02:43.94
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

01:02:52.80
Chris
Spoken with a couple of indie publishers about if they would be interested and I've got some interest so we'll see if that ends up going somewhere that'd be nice. It'd be nice to do a little fun fun novella.

01:03:01.99
Michael David Wilson
And so with the fun Novellas is that more something that you will get the deal rather than your agent I mean I'm wondering how your agent would even feel about pitching a novella called shit show I mean like obviously.

01:03:02.10
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, that sounds like fun.

01:03:21.72
Michael David Wilson
Like it. It reminds me a little bit of Brian Asman putting out man fuck this house. It is definitely an an arresting title that will capture your attention.

01:03:33.12
Chris
It's a great title god I mean I think there's a lot to be said for titles now I mean you look at everything Eric Laroca has done and you know things have gotten worse. Ah I mean that got people to pick that book up that and the cover art right? I mean. Before they knew anything about it I think virtually every horror fan would pick that book up and go what is this and so there's a lot to be said for a good ah good title and um so I have talked to my agent about it and we have some plans for it. Um. But ah, you know and I honestly we haven't spoken about how we would handle it but she's my agent and so I don't go and try to get deals without involving her so she would be involved.