TIH 573: Josh Malerman on Incidents Around the House

00:00:03.01
Michael David Wilson
Josh, welcome back to This Is Horror podcast.

00:00:06.96
Josh Malerman
Yeah, it is good to see and hear you two again. Hello.

00:00:10.70
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and the last time was nine months ago when you and I were talking about the high strung and we were talking about all those crazy stories and the van, the van man.

00:00:11.40
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, I know.

00:00:23.96
Michael David Wilson
what I saw pictures of it the other day you posted on social media.

00:00:30.43
Josh Malerman
Yeah, we were we were in a thing like can i imagine like, and imagine you're like parking that at your dad's house. And you're like, like, when you're in town, you're like, Can I leave this here when I you know, and he's like, um Yes, you know, and he was like, could you actually put it close to the neighbor's yard because he doesn't like his neighbor.

00:00:46.57
Michael David Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, probably, I mean, I'll always ask about the biggest changes professionally and personally since we last spoke. But the big event for you right now is the release of incidents around the house, which I just finished less than an hour ago. I wrote on X that I wanted to have it kind of in my mind, in my heart, let's say.

00:01:15.56
Josh Malerman
you

00:01:15.66
Michael David Wilson
as close to recording this as possible. And man, I'm so affected. Like it is the scariest book that I've read in a long, long time. I had a visceral reaction to it. And it's one of those books where you feel that you know where it's going to go or you know what the sketch what type of scare it's going to go for and then it keeps basically showing you that you you don't know shit, you don't know what's gonna happen at all and yeah, it crept up on me and

00:01:55.09
Michael David Wilson
Particularly, I mean, after there's there's an incident with a guy called Brian, so I can say it that without spoiling anything.

00:02:04.00
Josh Malerman
Here.

00:02:05.29
Michael David Wilson
After the incident with Brian, it just goes absolutely nuts and it scares you, it affects you, it removes all safety and innocence in a way that you did not expect. Jesus Christ, Josh. what Where did this come from? Let's go back to the the origin, the genesis of incidents around the house.

00:02:27.97
Bob Pastorella
me

00:02:34.20
Josh Malerman
So I've had the idea for some, geez, maybe like 13 years. And my not and and it's not it it wasn't like it was a Rubik's Cube idea that I was trying to work out. It's been with me for a while. and It started, and and this probably makes a lot of sense, it started with like something my my ah brother's kid said to him.

00:02:56.25
Bob Pastorella
No, no, no.

00:02:58.19
Josh Malerman
you know I mean, the book almost feels like it's one flash of that, I think. But but anyway, it was something, that you know and it's been with me forever. And then Allison and I had um a cat pass away. And we came home and we're both pretty freaking emotional. And Alison started painting a mural of the cat on the wall, like in the foyer. And I was like, well, she's writing on the walls and so am I. And I outlined incidents around the house on the office wall, like right over the computer, I can see it right now. And I was like, okay, fine, let's both let's both that's but jump into our work or get creative or whatever. I've had this idea for forever, you know what? And then I wrote that,

00:03:41.06
Josh Malerman
outline out and there was one line, it's the first line here, I can just read it to you. It says, can an eight year old narrator, the wall is kind of far away, can an eight year old narrator, can an eight year old narrate an entire novel without ever being unreliable? And that was the the part where I was like, man, I want, yeah, you know what? I might want to get started on this right away. Because it became like a rule for me that this isn'tt this isn't, we're not spending any time with an imaginary friend. We're not we not, let's not spend any time with like, nobody believes Bella. She's not lying. She's not crazy. She's not making up. Bella is true. And once I like saw that prism, I was like, man, this could be,

00:04:30.89
Josh Malerman
This could be really scary if we both fully believe this kid telling us this story as opposed to spending, you know, two thirds, you know, and then, you know, oh my God, she's right or something. You know, like, no, let's write from the word go. This is reality and it's and it's and it's not great.

00:04:52.98
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and I think having the story told from Bella's perspective, it really had an almost experimental feel, particularly without using, you know, speech marks and so you're just getting everything kind of presented from her head. And I mean, i it it almost gave it for me at least a found footage feel like we were reading something we almost weren't meant to be reading, but it it had been recorded secretly.

00:05:30.46
Josh Malerman
that's That's amazing. you know i think the ne Maybe not to get too technical, but I think that the the key to not cheating her naration naration narration was that it was present tense. Because if it was past tense for her to repeat everything Datto and Mommy said, he'd be like, how does she remember it all? But present tense, we don't even know how much of this is sinking in, but she's just hearing it. And so are we. So Datto can talk for an entire You know, Paige while he's drunk sitting on the end of the bed, her mommy can reveal a lot sitting on the same end of the same bed. um And we're like a window to to to what she's experiencing rather than her saying, and then Datto said all this, this, and we're like, hmm. So I do think the present tense helped her like like keep keep keep her narration true.

00:06:29.74
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and I'm wondering as well to go back to you saying that you outlined it on the wall in the very office that you are sitting in right now. I mean, how do you think that creatively affected things? Because I mean, from what you've said before, this is not your normal method of doing things. Do you think that played a part in terms of not just the presentation of the story, but the mindset?

00:06:59.67
Josh Malerman
Yeah, like, for one, hadn't planned on writing it until Allison starts painting on the wall. For two, wrote the outline above the office closet. Didn't realize that till later. the closet is facing me. And the biggest one though, the biggest change was as you both know, I listen to horror soundtracks every time I'm writing and I have this all of that collection. And so I'm going through it first, like, okay, what am I gonna do? Danny Hoffman's way too playful. And and this this felt too like, and another one felt like too right on the nose, like it's so scary. and And I was like, hey man,

00:07:40.75
Josh Malerman
Why don't you try writing a book to silence? Like, have you ever, Josh, have you ever tried, like, you know, I've written 40 now, have you ever tried one to just, nothing. It's nighttime, the house is darker, they turn off all the lights. No sound in this office at all, writing this book. And I feel like, I feel like the characters in this book are in a music-less situation. I feel like when I started rewriting it, I was like, man, there's a cold wind blowing through this book and do not shut that window. Whatever you do, Josh, don't shut that window. The closest thing that I can relate it to is, well, maybe two of them.

00:08:20.24
Josh Malerman
Carpenter's Farm and Bird Box, because I think that Bird Box has almost a single note through it all, a single hum that you could, the same note could go through every chapter. This one, it's almost like the same gust of wind can go through every chapter. And I think Carpenter's Farm has a bit of that too, but it was a really bizarre revelation for me, because as you know, I love writing to music. And so I was like, at the end of this one, I was like, oh man, now you know, there were times where I left the office to go find Allison in the house, like to be like, hey, ah how you doing? And then she would be like, are you freaked out right now? I'm like, oh, no, no, no, I was just wondering like what you're up to, you know? But yeah, I was totally freaked out, man. I'm in like a silent room, you know, and and and other mommies talking to Bella and,

00:09:11.41
Josh Malerman
you know, popping up from this where the the space between the bed and the wall, you know, and like stuff like that. And I was just like, oh man, yeah, hey, Allison, how you doing? You know? So the process was different in its suddenness, in its lack of music. I mean, just those two things alone were like, wow, okay, let's do this.

00:09:34.39
Michael David Wilson
And how long did it take you from beginning to write it to finishing that initial draft? And I'm wondering because from what you said, I mean, it was not just a scary experience for us to read, but pretty scary for you to write and no doubt anxiety inducing. So did that affect the pace? Did you almost want to finish it quicker because you want to get out of the situation?

00:10:03.24
Josh Malerman
I don't know, I don't know. I will say this, um the writer Ross Jeffrey, so he and I talk on Twitter and he was about to start a book and I was about to start a book. This one, well, it was really, must've been the next day after I wrote this outline that him and I talked about this. And then we were like, hey, let's send each other every 10,000 words of what we're working on, right? So his was the book, I died too, but they haven't buried me yet. And mine was incidents around the house. And I got to tell you guys, That's another element that was different was that it was it almost felt a little performative. Like I knew I was sending these 10,000 words to a fellow author when I reached the next chunk. And that almost kind of like, not that you get lazy with rewrites otherwise or something, but there was something there of like,

00:10:53.36
Josh Malerman
Okay, you better be sharp. You're sending this to like a friend when you're done, and if this next section sucked, well, fuck. but you know i mean It is just a rough draft, but I think that that sort of upped both of our rough draft game or something also. So there was a sense, I wouldn't say trying to finish it as fast as possible, but there was Just like Bird Box and Carpenter's Farm, there was like a sense, like I knew like every day I was like, I wasn't worried about running into a wall or or a any sort of roadblock or writer's block or anything close to that at all. It just kept coming out the whole time. Partly because it seems like the one you mentioned about Brian, where it was, I guess I'll just say this, where I felt completely okay to just take a sharp left turn.

00:11:45.56
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:11:46.15
Josh Malerman
like, hey, man, like, i it's called, you know, I was talking to my friend James on the phone. And he's like, what's this one about? Or what's this one called? And I was like, well, I mean, I don't know, it's just a bunch of incidents around the house right now. And I was like, Oh, no, no, that's it. That's it. Sorry, that's it. And he's like, what? No, no, no, that's, that's the title. It's the incidents around the house. That's exactly what this is. And like, so something about even the title alone, like freed me up. where it was like, hey man, like they don't even have to be necessarily, well, they're all related to other mommy, but they don't, it can be, they go to Amanda and Dan's and here's a friend that you expect to be like fully supportive and they're like, actually, you guys are kind of scaring us, man. Can you guys find somewhere else to stay? And that's like, there's something realistic in that, right? Like, I don't know about you, but if I had,

00:12:38.71
Josh Malerman
a baby and a wife and and two friends came and came over came over with that story. I don't know what I would do, man. i like I want to believe that I would be like, yeah, stay here. But I think all night I'd be like, oh man, what did you else? Did you hear that fucking story? Yeah.

00:12:58.39
Michael David Wilson
I think like, you know, having the baby, you're going to be protective of your baby.

00:12:59.38
Bob Pastorella
Mm.

00:13:05.18
Michael David Wilson
That is going to be your number one concern.

00:13:06.63
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

00:13:08.11
Michael David Wilson
So I mean, if anyone's inviting something into your house that could put your child in danger, then

00:13:14.02
Josh Malerman
Right.

00:13:17.99
Michael David Wilson
You know, they're really good friends and you want to help them, but it's like, can I help you from a distance?

00:13:19.08
Josh Malerman
Nice.

00:13:24.22
Michael David Wilson
Because this doesn't feel like a good idea. And also added to it, you're so bloody tired because you're a new parent anyway. Like you're not functioning.

00:13:33.30
Josh Malerman
nice

00:13:35.10
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:13:35.33
Josh Malerman
And also there's kind of that under understated, what well how would you say this? like You know how you just know when someone believes when they're telling you something? And I don't mean like a conspiracy theory, but like like some... ye for whatever reason, you can almost even feel it in a tweet and online too, that certain things you can feel like the emotion. And I can imagine Datto and Mommy, Ursula and Ross coming over to my house and me being like, normally I might be like, you guys are crazy, but this, but them coming over in that state, I think I would be like, wait a minute, they, maybe they did see something.

00:14:11.12
Josh Malerman
Cause like you can feel the genuineness from someone when they like have gone through something. And I think that that, so like I don't look for realism in any art. I don't look for it in my own books and anything that I'm watching. I could watch, literally I could watch just a sock puppet make faces for 90 minutes. and I think that might be an interesting movie. But for some reason, Bird Box, Carpenter's Farm, and now Incidents Around the House, all three of those, asked me, that's and it said, let the scenario be quote unquote unrealistic, I suppose. It's a horror scenario, whatever it is, right? But for some reason, I wanted to see the characters react

00:14:52.47
Josh Malerman
Holy realistic and that was like the second rule in the outline was Nobody knows what to do about this Any more than valid us not family friends grammar Ruth doctors, the church, a cultist, a ghost hunter. Nobody is going to, if you really walked into your daughter's room and saw other mommies sitting on the end of, dude, if I walked in and I saw that I don't even know because it would be so reality shattering, I don't even know that I would grab my kid first before I ran. I think I might run and then be like, oh shit, and go back and get the kid. I don't like i don't even know what I would do. And I wanted that sense

00:15:36.24
Josh Malerman
um I didn't want Ross and Ursula to be hapless. I wanted them to be a little bit hopeless, though, and a little bit helpless. Like, what the fuck are we supposed to do about this?

00:15:49.41
Bob Pastorella
Mm-hmm.

00:15:50.11
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

00:15:50.30
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, you you hit you hit every subtrop of this trope if there is a trope and subverted it It's like you you know the doctors they don't know shit You know not the spoiling thing they go to the church and the church thinks they're fucking crazy I mean and I'm like at that point it's like There's so many you're you're right there. They're completely hopeless in this and it's it's devastating

00:16:15.31
Josh Malerman
Yeah, even low. you Yeah, yeah. Right. All right. I mean, I hope that that's what it would feel like is that after a while, there's like a loneliness to this book. And that's what I mean by that cold wind. It's like, like, even Lois Anthony, she's probably the warmest thing in the book. And and she's like, Well, maybe we could try something. And that's a freaking disaster. Like, I mean, not to spoil anything.

00:16:39.17
Bob Pastorella
Yeah.

00:16:40.29
Josh Malerman
I mean, they go to Evelyn's house, a friend outside of the outskirts of Goblin. Great. Finally, somebody that's going to just let us spend the night. and And then what can she do to help? I mean, it's just at some point, it's like, hey, Ross, hey, Ursula, like, we have to solve this on our own. But like, I don't know if we can.

00:16:59.35
Bob Pastorella
Mmhmm.

00:17:00.35
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

00:17:02.35
Michael David Wilson
And this is why it's so scary because in the vast majority of other haunted house or haunted people novels, there are certain tropes. There are certain rules that the antagonist abides by. And this antagonist, this other mummy refuses to. She says, no, we're not playing by the rules.

00:17:27.08
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

00:17:28.07
Michael David Wilson
You know, i I almost wish that I could spoil it, but we we can't really, but I would say like, you know, a lot of satisfying horror books, it's going to percolate after you finished reading. It's not going to be one where you've got all the answers. Some might argue you haven't got any answers, but it it is a satisfying conclusion as a reader, but it's not going to be easy. It's not going to be comfortable.

00:17:59.23
Michael David Wilson
You might be haunted by images of of a mummy the night after reading it. I don't know. We'll find out tonight for me, because I've been thinking about her a lot. And, you know, every time I get up in in the night, it's like, what's that in the shadows? It's weird. It's like the haunting is kind of happening off the page. This one has really tapped into my mind.

00:18:23.52
Josh Malerman
Oh, that's incredible to hear.

00:18:23.98
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

00:18:26.31
Josh Malerman
That's like...

00:18:27.73
Bob Pastorella
It's, it's primal. That I mean, to me, that's that's the only way to describe it. I can I can only without spoiling this book, if you're listening to this podcast, and you're on the fence going, I don't know if I should get it. I have a closet in my bedroom. Occasionally, sometimes every once in a while, I'll i'll leave it kind of half open, especially if the cats ain't in here. Since reading that book, that closet door is fucking shut.

00:18:55.47
Josh Malerman
Cool.

00:18:56.54
Bob Pastorella
Period. End of story. I have a curtain like in in in my bathroom that goes across the shower. Most people do. And i'm I'm pretty tidy. I like to take the curtain when I'm done with the shower and move it all the way across to where it at the shower's. You know, shut. I just kind of scream creep myself out just thinking about this. It's open now in case i that way I won't imagine someone sitting in the tub when the shower curtain's shut, okay? This is a week after reading the book. I have changed behaviors because of this book. I am not someone who changes behaviors on a regular basis. So this book has had a physical effect on me.

00:19:40.68
Bob Pastorella
Okay, I have been creeped out by books, but I've never been creeped out like I've been creeped out in this book. So yes, you you you you did something there, man.

00:19:53.77
Josh Malerman
men Man, this is like, and and you know wow.

00:19:54.80
Bob Pastorella
It's ah it's it's visceral and primal.

00:20:00.13
Josh Malerman
I'm discovering, and again, i like I told you, I've only talked to like three people so far about this book, and you guys, And it's almost like hard for me to talk about because you guys know, usually I'm kind of like, do do do do do do and like drinking and you know, and I'm like, I'll see like a tweet about how scary incidences are saying and I'm, my instinct is to be like, Oh my God, thank you. I love you. You know, and I'm like, wait, wait, hold on. I don't, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to close that window. I don't want to close that, that window with ah where the, where the, where the wind is blowing through this book. And I'm almost like afraid to be too like Mr. or Mr.

00:20:34.46
Josh Malerman
energized while talking. and Even right now, I'm finding myself being more reserved than normal around YouTube. Not hiding what I'm thinking, just in tone of voice. and there's some it's like There's something solemn about this book.

00:20:48.01
Bob Pastorella
Mmm.

00:20:48.64
Josh Malerman
ah again i think it's the Personally, I think it's the lack of music. I think that I hear everything inside in in the house clearer because there's no music playing. and And I can hear like, you know, like that we have cats. Oh my god. And I'm working on this book. And these cats are like, walking down the hall and remember the house is dark. And you know, Alison is either out in asleep or outside working on something, no music, just sitting here. Oh, even because of the light of the computer screen, I can't see the closet beyond it.

00:21:25.85
Josh Malerman
I mean, I was like, there was some there were some moments like Evelyn's house, like I had to leave them id to leave the office. Yeah, I don't remember if you guys, Evelyn was the the bigger house in Goblin, yeah.

00:21:36.50
Michael David Wilson
Oh yeah, yeah.

00:21:36.74
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

00:21:37.33
Josh Malerman
I had to leave the office. And I'm not i and saying I wrote the Scariest The Other, but I am saying like, yeah, it affected me.

00:21:43.14
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

00:21:46.87
Michael David Wilson
Yeah and I think thematically as well it felt like This was a continuation from both your exploration of the concept of hauntings in Half the House as haunted. And then I almost felt the parents' relationship and their role had some commonalities between Doug and Judy.

00:22:10.00
Josh Malerman
Oh, interesting.

00:22:10.67
Michael David Wilson
I don't know if if these were things that you were consciously doing or that you noticed too, but it,

00:22:14.84
Josh Malerman
Oh, that's cool.

00:22:17.46
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, it felt like this is continuing to riff on this and this is what we do as writers. We find these concerns and then we want to explore them and see how far we can take it.

00:22:31.13
Josh Malerman
Yeah, it's totally interesting. i didn't think i thought of I didn't think of Doug and Judy, but that makes sense too. um But I definitely thought of the other one. and Half the House is Haunted almost feels like a precursor to this now or something. And that was obviously totally unintentional. It was he was just like, oh, I'm going to write this story, and then I'm going to write that story. and But there is there yeah there is a sim there's ah there's ah there's a bond there or something. and And it was written right after it. Like, right after it. Like, Spin a Black Yarn, and then, am right am I right? Spin a Black Yarn. No. Spin a Black Yarn, then Daphne expanded into a full novel then, Incidents Around the House. But still, same. Yeah, yeah. It was written like right right there, like a year within a year.

00:23:17.25
Josh Malerman
And man, what a what a sandbox. And I and i gotta give um Del Ray a lot of credit too because they never push back on the weird formatting or the weird lack of quotes. Like that that like that wasn't in their notes. Like they gave me notes back, but it wasn't that it wasn't that shit. And I was like, oh, all right, man. It looks like we got one through. It looks like we got like like some interesting formatting through. It's like they understood that. if an eight-year-old is telling us a story, maybe she wouldn't know or she would forget or just wouldn't think to use quotation marks.

00:23:54.57
Josh Malerman
Even though she's not writing the book, it's still, right, it's still, yeah, you can get what I'm saying, yeah.

00:23:56.69
Michael David Wilson
Right.

00:24:01.22
Michael David Wilson
Oh yeah, yeah.

00:24:02.20
Josh Malerman
Yeah, and El Rey was like, from the word go, I was, you know, and I sent this to them, because again, Ross read it in installments, and we were both really excited about each other's books. And, So I had him, I had this one human being that had read that book before sending it to Delray. And then I was like a little bit, like, i what the hell are they gonna think about this one, man?

00:24:23.78
Bob Pastorella
Mm

00:24:26.50
Josh Malerman
Like an eight year old and this and that.

00:24:27.34
Bob Pastorella
hmm.

00:24:27.94
Josh Malerman
And and they were amazing through the whole experience. They've been amazing.

00:24:32.68
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and speaking of Delray, last week they sent me the audiobook files as well, so I could check out the audiobook.

00:24:40.90
Josh Malerman
Oh, I haven't, have you listened to any of it?

00:24:42.75
Michael David Wilson
but Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So as Bob knows, I am very critical when it comes to narrators and they can make or break a book for me. And the narrator who narrates as Bella is so good and so effective that in

00:25:00.74
Josh Malerman
Yes. Yes.

00:25:05.50
Michael David Wilson
In the kind of, let's say the last 25%, there was so much emotion in her voice that i I have not heard that much emotion in an orator's performance before, that I was nearly crying. She was so good that I was feeling what she was feeling.

00:25:22.67
Josh Malerman
that out of oh how did This is funny. This is amazing. I love that someone listening to podcasts is going to like, I'm asking you how the audio book you my goes. is like How is

00:25:35.02
Michael David Wilson
yeah oh yeah oh oh yeah oh for mommy was good oh for mommy was good yeah yeah yeah i i

00:25:39.41
Josh Malerman
other mommy's voice?

00:25:44.34
Josh Malerman
It was good. Okay. Okay. Because in the meeting, Allison does other mommy and she's taken this sort of like, because as you know, Allison's a great singer, and she sort of modulates her voice in the reading. I can't do it, but it's like, hey, Bella, Bella, it's you.

00:26:01.88
Bob Pastorella
Ha, ha, ha.

00:26:03.64
Josh Malerman
Bella, it's you.

00:26:03.54
Michael David Wilson
I heard, and heard the yeah, the first part of the conversation you did with Rob Olsen, I listened to the first part.

00:26:04.49
Josh Malerman
Like, so I'm just like, oh, that's creepy, man.

00:26:11.00
Josh Malerman
Yes, for you heard Allison.

00:26:11.68
Bob Pastorella
Oh, yeah, yeah, we heard her doing on there.

00:26:12.70
Michael David Wilson
And so Alison, Alison shows up and yeah, has goodness, it's so kind of disquieting because it it's like a an inhuman voice. It's kind of a robot or an Android or something.

00:26:27.57
Josh Malerman
i almost so android I know, like, she did it at the very first reading rehearsal.

00:26:28.81
Bob Pastorella
Mm-hmm.

00:26:34.04
Josh Malerman
And right away, we were all like, that's it. That whatever the hell you're doing, like I got the chills on my arm house and like, that's it, you know? And so that's how she does it.

00:26:41.45
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:26:42.01
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

00:26:42.72
Michael David Wilson
it was It was a bit of a different take in the audiobook. I guess in a way though, if it had been Alison doing it, it might it might almost stand out too much. I know that might be a bizarre thing to say, but it might distract you.

00:26:56.69
Josh Malerman
know that I but yeah, I did. Yep, I understand what you're saying.

00:26:59.10
Michael David Wilson
Yeah. but

00:27:00.44
Josh Malerman
That actually makes me feel better. so you But either way, you felt good about other mommy.

00:27:05.58
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, I felt good about of a ver mummy and I thought, you know, from from the parts that I've listened to, because I haven't listened to the full audio book, but I've listened to to parts of it and I thought, goodness, this is, I mean, it's the the best performance of an audio book I've listened to this year. And, you know, that

00:27:24.00
Josh Malerman
This is incredible. I'm gonna rob and tell them that you said that I'm gonna write that to Del Rey. They're gonna be like ecstatic. um And then they're gonna be like, have you listened? But and I haven't got the file yet. I didn't even like so. Okay, one one more thing is Datto. Wow, God, I love Datto. Like there's a few characters, again, I've written 40 novels now. And obviously I love them all and ah and and I have a, Whatever. Relationship with all the characters. But there are a few that come along that you don't even feel like you're writing. Mallory, for sure, was like that. I think Carol was like that. Datto is like that for me. like i It was so easy for me to write him. I didn't even have to like think about what he would say. I wasn't even thinking about what he would say next. And that doesn't mean that I'm ah him, because he seems a little like,

00:28:17.70
Josh Malerman
I don't know more a little looser than I am or something like I don't smoke grass and well I mean I do it here and there I guess but he's he's at the party making jokes smoking grass with his friends and and like and just and I am an optimist but he's really he's really trying to be an optimist in this book. I mean, he's trying, you know? and But, oh you know, hugh he kind of reminds me of his Tom from Bird Box. Like there's already like there or something like, like Daddo's kind of our like, what if once we lose Daddo's hope, we're we we're in trouble.

00:28:42.76
Michael David Wilson
Oh yeah, yeah.

00:28:51.21
Josh Malerman
And he he was a joy. and So ah how did, ah how did ah she do his voice? Was it good?

00:28:58.06
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah. I mean, i i everybody's voice was good, but Bella's was exceptional.

00:29:05.63
Josh Malerman
that's

00:29:05.76
Michael David Wilson
That's the best way that I can put it. Bella was the standout, which which is great because Bella is the main character.

00:29:12.01
Josh Malerman
That's... Yeah, I'll take that. 100%, that all sounds... Wow, that's that's incredible. Yeah.

00:29:18.29
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, but oh.

00:29:19.59
Bob Pastorella
I'm going to get this when I get my credits or already have my credits.

00:29:19.95
Michael David Wilson
ah

00:29:22.55
Bob Pastorella
When the book releases, I'm going to do the audio book and get to experience it again. I'm so fucking excited.

00:29:27.92
Michael David Wilson
yeah no you she's

00:29:28.55
Josh Malerman
i'm going to yeah i think i'm and and you know how yeah you know what i'm meannna You know what I'm gonna do guys? I'm gonna fucking turn all the lights off in the office and I'm gonna like late at night and no music and I'm just gonna listen, I'm gonna just i'm gonna play it and just sit here. And i mean I'm gonna be like, ah! sir

00:29:44.06
Bob Pastorella
ah they said No, I know.

00:29:45.79
Michael David Wilson
gonna mess you up yeah yeah i mean like i There were bits where i I couldn't listen to it with my partner about because I thought, I'm gonna start crying or freaking out and she's gonna wonder, what what the fuck are you doing? What are you listening to? This doesn't seem safe for you. So it's like, I'm waiting for her to go to work or to go and do something so I can put it on again. but I mean, we yeah, with Daddo as well, like you say, he's so optimistic, he's so hopeful and that there were parts where it's really affecting me because he seems so positive and like, you know, I'm a positive person, but I'm feeling like ah you're being too positive.

00:30:32.19
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

00:30:36.26
Michael David Wilson
it's it's It's not as good as you think it is. You need to... You need to temper this because it's going to crush you when reality hits home.

00:30:42.12
Josh Malerman
but

00:30:45.77
Michael David Wilson
That was kind of the hardest part for me about about Daddo. But I mean, but particularly near the start of the book, there's some wisdom that we can really apply to our own life. So it's almost like in this horror story, You've got like a mini section of self-help if you choose to read it that way. You know, try to stay as kind as long as you can. That is great life advice right there. And it's in this like scary as fuck horror story.

00:31:20.86
Josh Malerman
Yeah cuz you know he's sitting at the end of the bag like telling Bella and then we're all like it's not just you two in that room data, you know Yeah, oh, I wanted to point out um something that I thought was like give Kristin my agent credit credit for something because there's she she

00:31:29.73
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:31:41.10
Josh Malerman
like suggested a different line and she doesn't do this very often, but she did. And so it's the scene, mommy is in Bella's bedroom. And I think Bella had mentioned something to the effect of other mommies either against the wall and went near the other closet or kind of like something, her face is near where the ceiling meets the floor, whatever it was. And then mommy is like about to leave the room and then she kind of looks back to that area. And I had her say, is someone there? And then Kristen was like, no, no, no, that should be, what am I looking at right now?

00:32:15.79
Josh Malerman
What am I looking at here? And I was like, oh, that is so good.

00:32:19.38
Michael David Wilson
No.

00:32:19.83
Josh Malerman
What am I looking at here? Because then you just, you pictured less of like a face and more of like a presence. Like, what am I, what am I, Bella, what am I looking at over here? And I was like, oh, Kristen, that is so good. So yeah, I feel like there was, You know, Ryan Lewis from the start, there was, from all of us from the start, there was this sense of like, um let's try to keep this whatever this is, let's try to keep this what this is, the mood, the the the the the temperature, which is to me fairly low. Like, let's keep whatever this is, whatever notes we give, let's not alter the essence of this book.

00:33:04.73
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah no that that line is so much more effective and and like you don't you don't know how to deal with it, which is kind of the whole thing.

00:33:10.14
Josh Malerman
No, thank you.

00:33:16.22
Michael David Wilson
It's like the unknown, the inability as to how to react, how to respond. and I got to say what one more note on the narration in the audiobook, and I just quickly looked this up. So because Bella's voice is so good, there was part of me that was like, is is it another narrator? Is this a multi... narrator book and i've looked up and according to you know the credits on audible no there's just one narrator and i almost can't believe it i feel like there's a mistake because bela is so distinct and

00:33:56.72
Josh Malerman
It's great to hear.

00:33:57.70
Michael David Wilson
Like like i I almost felt like, and I assumed they hadn't because of a ah legal reasons and difficulties getting like working licenses, but I almost felt like, is there an actual child?

00:33:58.14
Josh Malerman
me

00:34:10.40
Josh Malerman
So I asked that in our first meeting for the book, I was like, I have no idea the rules guys, are we allowed to have like an eight year old narrate this?

00:34:10.30
Michael David Wilson
didn i just

00:34:18.34
Josh Malerman
And they're like, no, we can't that's now that we can't do that. I don't know why that is. or I don't know what that is. But maybe that just sounds like an impossible task. Like, can you imagine a child having to read an entire novel, like word like word perfect and everything?

00:34:31.69
Michael David Wilson
yeah

00:34:33.59
Josh Malerman
So I don't know if that was the reason or if there's some labor thing. I have no idea. But they're like, no, no, we can't do that. So then they sent me a few options. And I always defer to them. I really do. Like, you know, um I'm like, which one do you like best? And he he explained, this is why I like this one best. And I'm like, all right, then let's let's do that. Yeah.

00:34:55.62
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah. I guess it's like, it's strange that you couldn't have like a child.

00:34:58.46
Josh Malerman
Thank you.

00:35:04.53
Michael David Wilson
Actually like, sorry, I'm i'm going down a rabbit hole as we're talking. And it, I think, I think the narrator might be 17. I think they might be 17 from what I'm, from what I'm picking up now.

00:35:16.59
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

00:35:20.04
Michael David Wilson
Like I've, I've found like I've put, cause I was like, what else has she done? so So they got as close to a child narrator as possible.

00:35:28.55
Josh Malerman
yeah

00:35:31.67
Michael David Wilson
But I suppose, yeah, it it is strange that you can't have children as narrators if if indeed you can't because we have child actors.

00:35:41.14
Josh Malerman
Right, right. That's why I brought it up with them.

00:35:41.81
Michael David Wilson
That's the thing. yeah

00:35:43.89
Josh Malerman
I was like, this sounds like a reason.

00:35:44.34
Michael David Wilson
try to But now now like we we always come up with these weird concepts and ideas.

00:35:46.50
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

00:35:50.90
Michael David Wilson
Now I'm imagining if there was like a world or a story where you couldn't have child actors. So you've got like this, you know, right this is ridiculous.

00:35:57.99
Josh Malerman
out

00:36:00.34
Bob Pastorella
I didn't have any.

00:36:01.41
Josh Malerman
so like deeper time

00:36:01.59
Michael David Wilson
You've got this film and you've got like 40 year olds playing the children.

00:36:05.73
Bob Pastorella
No, no, no.

00:36:05.79
Michael David Wilson
and

00:36:07.86
Bob Pastorella
No, I imagine can you imagine Flanagan's the hunting a hill house if all of the the flashback scenes were all adults playing the kids.

00:36:15.96
Josh Malerman
Yeah, no, I love it.

00:36:17.00
Michael David Wilson
hello

00:36:17.45
Josh Malerman
I love this idea.

00:36:17.63
Bob Pastorella
God, man. So it's a 40 year old in a tree house. What the fuck is going on here?

00:36:21.06
Josh Malerman
the you

00:36:24.03
Michael David Wilson
I want someone to do something with this now I feel like I feel that there's an idea in this and I'm also surprised that like I'm not drunk or stoned or something coming up with this and feeling so heavily invested but this is this 10 a.m.

00:36:27.84
Josh Malerman
yeah

00:36:42.34
Michael David Wilson
on a Sunday morning but has to happen

00:36:43.01
Bob Pastorella
Um, it feels like one of those like type of laws that, you know, the GOP would pass or something like that. And you can not have any kids in films anymore.

00:36:55.45
Josh Malerman
yeah

00:36:55.57
Bob Pastorella
You know, so it's like you have everyone playing the kids roles are all adults now, you know, I'm going to protect the children.

00:37:00.63
Josh Malerman
oh hi hi you oh

00:37:03.03
Bob Pastorella
and Yeah.

00:37:04.73
Josh Malerman
Why don't you come over here, buddy? Hold on. Get your tail down here for us. There we go. Hey, Dewey. How you doing, buddy? You want to say hi?

00:37:12.21
Michael David Wilson
There we go.

00:37:13.51
Bob Pastorella
That's the one who was creeping you out when you were writing this book right there.

00:37:14.11
Michael David Wilson
Got it.

00:37:16.89
Josh Malerman
yeah Do you remember all the incidents around the house?

00:37:18.44
Bob Pastorella
Running around, making all that racket.

00:37:21.96
Josh Malerman
Remember that one? Yeah, you remember that one. The house probably felt real weird to you then. i mean Maybe it felt normal to you then.

00:37:28.80
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:37:29.56
Josh Malerman
ah

00:37:31.55
Michael David Wilson
So do you think that you will permanently keep the outline on the wall? Do you think you might?

00:37:38.23
Josh Malerman
yeah

00:37:38.50
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:37:39.09
Josh Malerman
Oh, yeah.

00:37:39.17
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:37:39.81
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

00:37:40.15
Michael David Wilson
Stay in there now.

00:37:41.71
Josh Malerman
I made a film, a documentary recently of um writing a novel from beginning.

00:37:47.16
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:37:48.51
Josh Malerman
from from conception to end. And I outlined that one on this other wall over here. And all that's on tape and everything. And there is a scene in the movie where I'm showing a friend this outline and then she's like, do you always do this? And I'm like, oh, well, there's another one. And she like turns the camera and there's incidents. And yeah, there's scenes in that movie of where I'm like, I have to take a break on the book I'm writing because I have to rewrite incidents around the house. And yeah, so it was you it's cool because I don't think that I could have

00:38:20.02
Josh Malerman
filmed the incidence experience. I think that would have been a bad idea. Whatever it was was, and I couldn't have known that going in, but whatever it was was so solitary, so alone, and then I would send Ross 10,000 words. And then to have had like a camera and like talking about the book, I think that this, that was, incidence was not the right book to to to a film or to let people in on the process or something.

00:38:48.61
Michael David Wilson
And when you and Ross were sending each other 10,000 words at a time, were you giving one another feedback or I mean, yeah, yeah.

00:38:58.68
Josh Malerman
Yep.

00:38:58.93
Michael David Wilson
Cause I, cause I imagine almost particularly with this book, that might've been dangerous because you are letting someone else in and like, yeah.

00:39:06.78
Josh Malerman
Yeah, yeah but but again, at first, you know it was just like, ah well, that's the next book we're gonna write. And then really honest to God, between the she's always reliable and the not finding the right music for it. I feel like somewhere in there, the mood, like I was like, Oh, I think I just chanced upon a mood. Like it was almost like an accidental discovery, not accidental, but it was like a discovery in the office or something.

00:39:36.44
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:39:37.26
Josh Malerman
I still i I'm still trying like being more reserved than normal with you guys, because I'm like,

00:39:37.76
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:39:43.12
Josh Malerman
It's like, am I trying to remain scary or something?

00:39:43.19
Michael David Wilson
the

00:39:45.36
Josh Malerman
and like I don't don't even like know what do i what I'm doing, but yeah.

00:39:49.26
Michael David Wilson
Yeah. I mean, for for me, this feels like your most.

00:39:50.07
Bob Pastorella
Bye.

00:39:53.47
Michael David Wilson
horror horror novel which might be a weird comment because obviously a lot of your novels are horror novels but this almost feels like horror in its purest form i don't know if that makes any sense or if it just sounds like yeah he definitely took an edible what is he coming out with today

00:40:13.72
Josh Malerman
ah Yeah, no, I mean, I'm looking at them right now. I mean, Pearl, Pearl is a horror novel. um On This the Day of the Pig, ah Daphne. I mean, yeah, but I know what you mean. There's like, this one has like, you can almost feel like, you know, how like a spider has like hair on its arms.

00:40:34.31
Michael David Wilson
Hmm.

00:40:35.04
Josh Malerman
Like you can almost feel the hair on the arms of this book.

00:40:38.04
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

00:40:40.03
Bob Pastorella
No, speaking, speaking of hair, um, kind of possibly getting into influence as anything, but I, not, not to be too spoilery, but I sensed a Asian horror influence.

00:40:54.98
Josh Malerman
Oh, interesting. huh

00:40:56.78
Bob Pastorella
And there was, there was a a couple, a couple of, of, of the incidents, um, were definitely, um, to me felt very. Due on.

00:41:10.33
Josh Malerman
Wow, this is great.

00:41:12.23
Bob Pastorella
And a cat meows when I say that.

00:41:14.13
Josh Malerman
yeah yeah

00:41:14.36
Bob Pastorella
no yeah

00:41:15.84
Josh Malerman
outre

00:41:16.11
Bob Pastorella
yeah So, but, uh, and I, and I'm not saying, Hey, you know, this is, this is where this is coming from, but I felt that. And Ju-On is, is, you know, one of the creepiest movies. Um, and, you know, of course the grudge, you know, but, um, you know, the reason why the grudge is so good, it's the same director and half, you know, half the cast, half the main cast is in the movie.

00:41:32.74
Josh Malerman
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:41:41.63
Josh Malerman
I didn't know that.

00:41:43.21
Bob Pastorella
Yeah. Um, Ramey produced it, but he insisted that it was the same, you know, director make the movie.

00:41:50.17
Josh Malerman
Wow, that's that's amazing.

00:41:51.07
Bob Pastorella
So, and, uh, Mm

00:41:52.12
Josh Malerman
Okay, well, I'll tell you what, I watched the original Ring recently, and what struck me was that the like arc of scares or something that we're just so used to, like the Western sort of like arc of scares, is that like you kinda know when something scary he is coming, you know even even in like our favorite horror movies, you know made like in America or whatever, right?

00:41:58.99
Bob Pastorella
-hmm.

00:42:19.11
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

00:42:19.97
Josh Malerman
But watching a movie like The Ring ah and there were a few moments where I was like 100% not expecting that moment to have happened. It was like it was like ah the movie was made to a different beat, was made to an internal rhythm, was made to a different cultural rhythm.

00:42:30.72
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

00:42:36.11
Bob Pastorella
Right.

00:42:36.62
Josh Malerman
And if they're if we're going to sit here and say that you know the scariest thing is the unknown, well, how about the unknown of the actual rhythm of the scary movie you're watching and when a scare would come and how a director would deliver this, that kind of thing. So I hope

00:42:52.53
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

00:42:55.71
Josh Malerman
that incidence has that thing that you're, that that as well, which is, and I think again, it's funny that this Brian scene has come up three times, but but it's it's true. it's It's like, I think if I was reading incidents around the house, I'd be like, okay, Brian's here. He's gonna save the day.

00:43:13.69
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

00:43:15.27
Josh Malerman
He's gonna solve this. and And it's not that he, it's no spoiler. I'm not saying he does or he doesn't, but it's just the rhythm of the scares or something. it's not

00:43:26.05
Bob Pastorella
right

00:43:26.17
Josh Malerman
It's not like, OK, now in a movie, it's like nighttime. We're like, oh, something scary is going to happen. And then we're all like, whew, when it's daytime, when they wake up the next day.

00:43:31.80
Bob Pastorella
Right.

00:43:36.17
Josh Malerman
Got through the first night of the movie, right? But the movie is like the garage, and they don't operate by that same beat.

00:43:43.48
Bob Pastorella
Right. No, they don't. I just now noticed this, but it seems like in in in Western films that that there's an escalating, it has to keep rising.

00:43:54.54
Josh Malerman
Yep.

00:43:54.73
Bob Pastorella
Whereas if you go into, especially foreign films, I don't give a shit about that. It's like, fuck we're just scared to fuck out of you right now in five minutes. And I'm going to give you some other scares along the way, but I'm going to also let you get emotionally invested with your characters. And so the scares might not be as scary, but the stakes will be higher.

00:44:17.67
Josh Malerman
ah hundred man i look this context i had man thank you I had a conversation with John Langen about this.

00:44:18.55
Bob Pastorella
yeah And that's, and you, you nailed it. That's exactly what you did in incidents around the house.

00:44:29.98
Josh Malerman
We were on the phone, and we were talking about how like we both made the mistake before of you have this like central scare in mind, and you're like trying to build up to it. and Then we were on the phone, we were laughing. were like um why not just use the scare and then come up with more scares. We were like laughing, right?

00:44:46.69
Bob Pastorella
Mm-hmm.

00:44:47.75
Josh Malerman
But it's 100% true. and And I think a movie that did that for sure would be The Witch because you open with the whole like peek-a-boo thing with the baby. It's like early in the movie. And then when the girl like, ah, and then the baby's not there anymore. And it's like, oh shit, something from the woods took the baby that I'm like supposed to be watching. And that was like early in the movie.

00:45:08.21
Bob Pastorella
Mmhmm.

00:45:08.41
Josh Malerman
And so what happens there, is there another moment that is scarier than that? No, but there because that happened early, now you're like, okay, what is this movie capable of?

00:45:19.43
Bob Pastorella
Mmhmm.

00:45:22.41
Josh Malerman
What what could happen to me here? I would even say Hereditary, ah that early scene where Toni Collette turns the light off in the and the um work shed or whatever of hers and sees like the faint outline of her mom by the shelf. And then she's like, in turns the light back on and she's not there.

00:45:40.01
Bob Pastorella
Mm-hmm.

00:45:40.17
Josh Malerman
And that was like early enough in the movie where you're like, oh dude, if they're capable of this, what else are they going to be capable of here? And again, that doesn't mean that they top that scare. But if we're again, if we're gonna say the unknown is what's scary, that translates even to, wow, dude, you're really just going for it right now, huh?

00:45:54.80
Bob Pastorella
Mm-hmm. Hmm.

00:46:00.37
Josh Malerman
That translates as well to the actual like rhythm of what we're watching. i'm Dude, I'm 100% with you. Like, like we don't.

00:46:06.88
Bob Pastorella
Yeah. And but Midsummer did it too. Midsummer shows its most horror scene at the beginning of the film.

00:46:14.51
Josh Malerman
Yeah, exactly, it's the.

00:46:15.73
Bob Pastorella
And the rest of it is you're dealing with the emotional fallout of that.

00:46:15.79
Josh Malerman
it's spellling Yeah, yeah.

00:46:20.88
Bob Pastorella
And, and to me, that's, that's storytelling right there. So, but yeah, and that's, you know, the man, the one thing, the hair, the hair on the finger at the end, That sealed the deal with me with the Asian whore. I was like, Oh man, this is, this is, this is so fucking creepy. Cause hair, like ah if I saw something like that, it would, I would, I would point it out. Do you have a hair on your knuckle? You know that, right? It's black, you know, it's like, it's pretty gross.

00:46:51.82
Josh Malerman
yeah yeah

00:46:55.23
Bob Pastorella
i I would, I'd remove that. I hate telling you, I'm not trying to be rude, you know, but that creep me to fuck out.

00:47:04.95
Josh Malerman
Yeah. Yeah.

00:47:05.51
Bob Pastorella
Oh, shit.

00:47:06.08
Josh Malerman
Amazing. amazing

00:47:09.83
Michael David Wilson
Do you think that going forward you will write another novel without music? Are you kind of clamoring to put the music back on and to get out of, you know, the silent house for a bit?

00:47:24.28
Josh Malerman
So, God, I think I've written four books since and Incidents, the one that I filmed, and then a nonfiction book. And then, not and don't don't imagine please don't imagine me researching. it's It's about a night that Alison and I had about 12 years ago, that was just this profound freaking night. And the whole book is just that night. And then Um, after that was a book that I had wanted to write for a long time about a vaudeville troupe. And so I listened to vaudevillian music that entire time. That stuff's just naturally creepy. Like you even even if it has no intention of being so. And then April 9. So I finished, it's called the frauds of phantasma is the vaudeville book. And

00:48:12.63
Josh Malerman
I must have finished it on like April 1st or something. And then April, and it's a 500 pager. And then April 9th, I had an idea for a book. And I was like, dude, you just wrote, yay, come on, you just wrote 500 pages, man, you need to take a break. I sat down April 10th and 17 days later, 300 pages later, it's done. And that one also had music. So I feel like there was What's the right phrase? And I was listening to sort of just rock and roll during that non-fiction one. I feel like there's been sort of like a flurry of books since incidents, but yeah, no, I would love to i would love to try to set that stage again, but also like, it's kind of ah it was a dark place to go to, like emotionally and and like just the vibe and the office. And I mean, it was, I felt like I was like,

00:49:02.69
Josh Malerman
Like it stepped over some line or something that I was like looking in in in an area where I'm like, oh boy, I don't know if I'm supposed to be here. You know? And then it was like, okay, but let's write everything down while we're here.

00:49:15.94
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, I mean, you're known for your positivity and for your optimistic outlook. Do you think that in writing it, was some of that stolen from you, whether temporarily or permanently?

00:49:31.45
Josh Malerman
Wow, that is, that might be the greatest question anyone's ever asked. um Because isn't there something occultish, occult about that, right? Is there anything more occult than getting the spirit of the writer on into the rectangular box of a book?

00:49:50.65
Josh Malerman
um God, I hope not. I hope not. I do have a book about a guy who, it was fearful um that he was losing his optimism or losing his lust lust for life and believed that an entity must be doing this to him. So he sets out to trap it. Essentially, it's a i don't I don't suffer from depression, but essentially this guy is trying to trap depression right and in is in his apartment. So I've i've written books before that

00:50:23.80
Josh Malerman
that maybe like harken to like the question you just asked, but incidents like feels different, man. And there was almost like, I almost wanted to write like Pee Wee's Big Adventure after, you know what I mean? I almost wanted to write like, hey man, what's the what's like the brightest thing I can do right now? I mean, it was, yeah, it feels like you're wearing like ah like a a darker shade of black your jacket when you're writing that one, yeah.

00:50:49.19
Michael David Wilson
Well, this is why I wrote the book, Daddy's Boy, which I told you about before, the kind of a lot of dick jokes, Joe or Lansdale, Greasy Strangler, kind of mashup after I'd gone through the darkest time in my life, after the custody battle, after the divorce, because I needed something. So in a way, it's like I had to write that for me. And if other people like it, then that's just a bonus, but God damn did I have a good time doing it.

00:51:13.97
Josh Malerman
Yeah, yeah Yeah, totally I mean, you know roll dolls all over the place too I mean all of our lot all a lot of my heroes are man, you know where it's like we don't have to stick to like the same whatever like but I But something did happen with incidents where like, I want to touch that again. I don't know what that means. I don't know what that looks like, but I want to touch that again. And I don't know how much of that is because of Bella's voice.

00:51:45.64
Josh Malerman
I don't know how much of that is like the music-less nature that I keep bringing up.

00:51:49.77
Michael David Wilson
Thank you.

00:51:51.32
Josh Malerman
I don't know. But because no, but no, no, no, because I think Carpenter's Farm is there as well. And I think Bird Box is close to there, but there's there's, again, there's that low home of music in Bird Box. But yeah, I would love to try it again without without trying to like outdo it or out scare you, you know, you did this and now we have to, oh, we gotta make something even scarier. No, don't think that way. I think that's like fool's errand, like, you know, going that way or something. But I do feel like I was like shaking hands with something dark for incidents and I think I'd like to shake its hand again.

00:52:26.45
Michael David Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. And of course I asked the original question because as you pointed out, you know, you're a little bit more reserved if that is the right word or apprehensive to talk about this one. The the energy is on a bit of a different level from every other conversation. And, you know, I i don't feel like, oh, that that's it.

00:52:45.92
Josh Malerman
yeah

00:52:49.31
Michael David Wilson
Josh's optimism has gone, but there's, there's part of me that's like,

00:52:51.29
Josh Malerman
yeah

00:52:55.42
Michael David Wilson
But if you dipped into that well enough times, what if you realized, shit, it's taking from me. It's like if I, if I enjoy this dark place every two years, then I can get by. But if I become addicted to it, if I'm dipping into this every three months, then I realize I'm not just taking from it, but it's taken from me.

00:53:13.29
Josh Malerman
Yeah. Never heard of it. Yeah, when I started writing, like finishing horror novels, I sent one to a friend named Maya and she warned me about what you just said.

00:53:16.74
Michael David Wilson
I don't know.

00:53:17.70
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

00:53:29.21
Josh Malerman
I mean, this was 20 years ago. She was like, i you know, this is a great book and but I just want you to be aware, you know, that if you're like, you know, you're a horror fan and you're and you're gonna be so spending all this time, like you it could take from you as well. you know in in exactly the way that you're describing right now. No, I'm not. I think the fact that The Frauds of Phantasma is the most colorful book you can imagine. It's like Carol, like I'm very Carol probably. And the one after that is a fucking bat shit idea that I absolutely love. And if we were talking about that one, I'd be like losing my mind raving right now. And so no, I'm not worried, but you know what it is? You know how it's like,

00:54:14.16
Josh Malerman
You know, there's those like certain movies that like almost are like too dark for you to watch or whatever, you know? And then you're like, oh man, I don't want to see that one. and and and And sometimes, usually those are because of a brutality or something like Martyrs or something like that, right? But at the same time, the next time you hear one of those, you're like, yeah, I'm probably, I'll watch funny games. let me Let me see funny games, right? And while incidents isn't brutal in that way, it's not like that, that's it's not a comparison in that way, but it is a different place. And I'd like to, I'd like, yeah, yeah, I wanna go back there, I wanna go back there. i Not a sequel, not ah not a similar scenario, but yeah, I wanna go back there.

00:54:58.92
Michael David Wilson
And see it's occurring to me as well as we're talking that I don't think it's shifted, you know, you, but when you talk about incidents, it's almost like you have to switch into this different mode because right at the start of the conversation, I mentioned you know the tour bus and we were in regular Josh Malham mode for that topic, but the moment incidents was mentioned, it's like, right, we've got to have a bit of reverence or respect. do I think it's respect almost for that for the subject matter and for other mommy and for what happens.

00:55:40.12
Josh Malerman
Yeah. i mean I mean, it might sound like a weird thing for me to agree with that, but but that's exactly how I feel. I feel like there's like a solemnity. There's a respect. There's sort of like, it's not that, not quite that we're at a funeral, but, but it's like, I can't talk about this book bouncing off. I can't bounce off the wall and snort alcohol while I talk about this book. Like this is like, this is like, yeah, man, this was, I saw some shit in this office.

00:56:05.70
Michael David Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. Which I suppose lends itself to what are you going to do in terms of the promotion? And we know that you do a lot of kind of shows and performances. It's like, you're never going to get just a regular reading from you, but because of needing to have this respect, has that altered the dynamic in which you've approached the show and the promotion?

00:56:34.68
Josh Malerman
Yeah, absolutely. It is tomorrow night, and it's in theater. And we've never, I don't think we've ever done in a proper theater space. And a guy Jim Byrne scored the entire, like it's an hour long program, scored the entire thing, including like original songs, and that meaning that he wrote for the book and inspired by the book. Um, Allison, as you heard is doing other mommy's voice and, and working on tons of props right now. I mean, the I wouldn't say that.

00:57:13.33
Josh Malerman
If I went to this, yeah, no, there's no question that this reading, because from the very beginning, um when people were making suggestions, Alison kept saying like, no, no, no, nothing funny, nothing funny. Like, no, no, no, I don't, I know nothing. No, that's funny and playful. If Josh is like, no, no, no, this guy's this one, there's nothing funny here. And it was like, okay, so I think there was from the whole troupe a sense of like, that same solemn thing.

00:57:43.39
Josh Malerman
But it's also really hard in a theater space to like, you know, you know, other, you know, it's not as easy.

00:57:43.44
Michael David Wilson
Beauty. Yeah.

00:57:51.01
Josh Malerman
I will say this, typically what we do is like four scenes that last like 10, 12 minutes each or something. But this one is like 10 scenes that are like three minutes each. And I kind of like that. I kind of like that it's like you're getting snippets of the book rather than like for like lengthy, like meaningful moments or something. Like we don't do Evelyn's house. There's no way we could do Evelyn's house on a stage and do it just, there's just no way. But we can, we do do, we do do.

00:58:23.51
Josh Malerman
the I'm sorry, shoot. Mommy is sitting on the end of the bed revealing a lot to to Bella and, you know, Bella hears Datto coming up the hall and, you know, all that kind of like stuff. And I don't want to ruin this scene or whatever, but that scene's in there. And yeah, there is like a certain Yeah, God, I hope that I, yeah, I hope everyone has a good time. I hope it's not like too like solemn.

00:58:55.98
Josh Malerman
I always end up like, I'm like, it's impossible for me not to make jokes when we're like doing these things, you know?

00:59:00.93
Michael David Wilson
right yeah yeah and i mean not just from this conversation but from our conversations over the years it's so clear that i mean you and alison you have such a

00:59:01.49
Josh Malerman
Because it is like, we're reading from the book and I'll be like, I'll be like reading what the book's about. And I'm like, wait, why am I, why do I have to read what my own book is about? Can can't I just tell you what it's about? You know, you know what I mean? But it's like, so I can't, I just can't help it, man. It's what? but

00:59:30.32
Michael David Wilson
creative partnership you know in terms of sometimes she will get parts of your vision it would appear in ways that you only unconsciously did so then she'll not only tell you when to go further but when to rein it back when to cut out the humor i i did not but i want where where can i see this

00:59:48.22
Josh Malerman
Yeah, yeah. Did you see the Bella doll that she made? And she built it from scratch, like from like... like Here, ah I don't know if you can see, it never kind of works this way, does it?

00:59:55.73
Bob Pastorella
Yes, i I saw it online. It's it's very, very creepy.

01:00:03.96
Josh Malerman
But here, let's see if it works. Can you see that?

01:00:10.96
Michael David Wilson
Oh, that is creepy. There is something foreboding about that.

01:00:14.35
Josh Malerman
And in it's about...

01:00:16.63
Michael David Wilson
Even more foreboding for people.

01:00:16.88
Bob Pastorella
you had You had her in the car too.

01:00:18.86
Michael David Wilson
What?

01:00:19.26
Josh Malerman
Oh, yeah. we had her in the car And she like sculpted her face and everything with clay and like and and and she has like elbow joints and like finger like like hand you're like like this is this is a pose.

01:00:19.52
Michael David Wilson
Yeah. Yeah.

01:00:30.45
Josh Malerman
of I mean, this this kid looks so pretty damn real when the lights are a little low and in the theater.

01:00:35.48
Bob Pastorella
Mmhmm.

01:00:36.89
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

01:00:37.18
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

01:00:37.96
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

01:00:37.84
Michael David Wilson
Oh, yeah.

01:00:40.54
Michael David Wilson
Do you think during the writing that you anticipated that this was going to scare people as much as it blatantly is? I mean, it's not even out yet and pretty much everyone who has read it is like, man, it scared the shit out of me or this was the scariest book that I've read this year and it it seems to be consistently happening.

01:01:05.44
Josh Malerman
No, i didn't i didn't I didn't know that. No, no, again, i maybe maybe I'm understanding this when I keep saying this, and I hope it doesn't affect people's reaction, but it was that decision of no music, man. And coming back to it, because like that was a moment in this office where I've never done that.

01:01:19.61
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

01:01:24.37
Josh Malerman
And I i put on, again, Danny Elfman was way too playful, even his darker stuff. And then, under the skin was too alien. And then, what what else would I try?

01:01:33.91
Josh Malerman
I tried something Like Joseph Beshara was closer, like the insidious like stuff, but even that was like too like, like there's like action dramatic sequences and like Bird Box was too like tempered and and everything just, I was like, no no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then I'd be like, oh, well, there's a, you know, there's a party scene. Maybe maybe you have like, i'm like no, no, no, no, no, no, nothing, nothing. Stop, stop. Just write this book. Turn off the lights and write this book. Well, I'm going to listen to the audio book that way. I'm going to freak myself out, man.

00:01.94
Josh Malerman
So I got an email from like a fellow author that was like, and she was very excited about the book and she goes, I hate these parents. And I was like, what do you, what do you mean you hate them? You know, I get it. Of course I get it. And it's for the same thing that you were saying before about Datto is like almost like, oh boy, like man, like, you know, you're an optimist you're optimist like in hell right now. And and that even bothers Ursa, mommy, that element of Datto. But here's something that crossed my mind is like, I kind of like mommy and I wonder like, is it okay to be, because she's not a great parent in this book. I mean, there there are scenes where she literally like sudden freaky is happening, she just leaves. And like, and

00:49.36
Josh Malerman
Is it okay to be a bad parent when your kid is eight and then a genius parent when your kid is like 17? Like, do you have to be a great parent for every age? And like, do you have to be made, tailor made to be a great parent when they're a baby, a toddler, i a teenager, a 35-year-old? Like, I could see mommy being an incredible parent to Bella when or if it was all, you know, whatever, um if Bella was 30. I can see her being an incredible parent to Bella, even if Bella was 17. And you know what? Mommy's not a great parent when she's eight. She's not a great parent, and it and it had me thinking like, like, Datto is an incredible parent when she's eight, but what might he seem to her when she's 17?

01:46.82
Josh Malerman
you know, if all these characters get to that age, I just wanna, you know, I don't wanna tell you how this book ends either way. And like there is, it's like it's a phil philosophical, mommy brings up like a philosophical question for me of like, is she a bad parent or is she just a bad parent right now?

02:04.58
Michael David Wilson
Yeah it's a crazy question because there are so many caveats and there are so many just avenues to go down because I mean first of all it's like who's even deciding what a good parent is?

02:21.06
Josh Malerman
Right.

02:21.01
Michael David Wilson
and That's the first problem that we have with this and you know when you say does does she have to be well does anyone have to be anything?

02:23.97
Josh Malerman
Right.

02:30.60
Michael David Wilson
I mean, I think always in life, we are going to have choices to make and ultimately each choice will probably lead to a positive in one area, but there may be a negative in another.

02:44.05
Josh Malerman
Right.

02:46.06
Michael David Wilson
So I mean, if I obsessively concentrate on my writing, Then one would hope, as we've said before, the more tickets you buy, the more stories you write, the more chance of success. So it's going to hopefully lead to more creative and financial success. But if I get so obsessed, it might mean that I'm then You know, neglecting my daughter, I'm not, I'm not being a parent as much as I could be, but then there's a bigger picture that it will help secure her a better future.

03:13.56
Josh Malerman
Right.

03:24.10
Michael David Wilson
So, you know, on the other hand, it's like, right, well, I could put more of my energy. Interparenting less into writing. So I'm going to be more focused on the demands of to today, but it might mean that there's a rockier future tomorrow. So I never think that there is such a thing as making the perfect choice or the only choice. You just have to decide, okay, what is the ratio? What is the split? What is it? that you're going to do now.

03:57.04
Michael David Wilson
And actually, if you have parents such as we do in the the book where, let's say, right, Daddo is good for, like, a younger child and Mummy is good for, like, a teenager and an older child, well, as parents, you're a team

04:12.33
Josh Malerman
um Hi.

04:15.65
Michael David Wilson
You know ideally so well isn't that the perfect combination isn't it better to have right mommy will be good at this stage daddy will be good at this stage because if you're both good for a younger child. Well then where's the support when they're older.

04:32.23
Josh Malerman
Yeah, and and and and like another question that crossed my mind, and this is gonna sound like silly, but it was like, which of the two would I want to go, which of the two would I rather go get a drink with, mommy or dad-o? And I think the initial easy reaction is dad-o, like, I mean, come on, you're gonna go and watch like the hockey game or something and maybe, you know, he's gonna be a little high and he's gonna be talking about music and he's gonna say some pretty awesome fire out shit. But then I'm like, but mommy, Like we could get into trouble that night, you know? Like that could be fun. like And I don't even mean like like sexual. or like I mean, we like like she might throw a bottle at someone. yeah like Like that sounds kind of interesting to me too. And she she just seems to be coming from, it's like she's coming from a sort of a naturally frustrated place or something with parenthood. And that would be an interesting thing to talk to her about.

05:30.49
Bob Pastorella
Mmhmm.

05:30.82
Josh Malerman
You know, and yeah, and like, so I don't, i and but it is interesting as you said, Doug and Judy, which those two are complete assholes.

05:30.78
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

05:39.91
Josh Malerman
I don't see mommy as as an asshole. I see her as like so someone who, it was when this book is not like, um you know, mommy and dad are happy homemakers and then, uh-oh, something bad's in the house. This book is like somewhat modern. They don't have an open relationship, but I don't know that Datto minds what's going on. And I don't even mean that in a kinky way or something. I mean it more like they're like best friends first, like this. In terms of like Ursula, like, you know, in a fair or something, right? Datto would not be the kind of guy to say, this is a deal breaker, we're getting divorced. No, he would be like, Ursula, wait i come on, what are you doing? Get your shit together.

06:31.78
Josh Malerman
And like that to me is like a sort of modern relationship in a way. It's more modern thinking. It's not so like black and white. And I get the sense that Datto truly, truly loves Ursula. And I get the sense that she loves something about him, but that that his his Pollyanna sort of irks her.

06:54.50
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, I think the difficulty for Ursula is she's having enormous trouble loving herself, which is then making it hard to, you know, have any love left. You know, and then of course it doesn't mean that she doesn't love aspects of Dada. She clearly does, but you know, she's got so many internal issues that you almost have to make yourself right before you can have room for others.

07:22.32
Josh Malerman
Right.

07:22.58
Bob Pastorella
Okay.

07:23.63
Josh Malerman
Right. Right. 100%. She's like an excellent example of that. And then, and then like she also does things. Oh, hold on. Do you hear that werewolf at my door?

07:35.07
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of a mummy you're showing up.

07:36.79
Josh Malerman
Allison. Allison. Baby. Whoa, that's one of my dogs.

07:43.95
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

07:44.18
Josh Malerman
Follow. Go lay down with mom. and so I'll be out in a minute. Baby? Allison?

07:52.84
Josh Malerman
Well, I hear the dog in the other room now, I hope.

07:54.27
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

07:55.09
Josh Malerman
Maybe that was Allison at the door.

07:56.61
Michael David Wilson
Well, you never know, and, you know, okay, okay.

07:58.51
Josh Malerman
Oh, boy. Hold on. Give me one second.

08:02.94
Josh Malerman
Hey, guys, guys, guys, guys. Guys, no. No, no, no. Allison, Allison. What's going on?

08:13.30
Michael David Wilson
This is the moment where we focus on Josh's screen and then some toy or something just moves.

08:14.88
Josh Malerman
like like like

08:20.66
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, fuck that.

08:23.00
Michael David Wilson
She's a throwback to the conversation with Todd Keyes' link that because of the, yeah, exactly.

08:28.65
Josh Malerman
yeah

08:28.82
Bob Pastorella
the monkey yeah

08:30.99
Michael David Wilson
Because of the order that things are released in. I may be referencing an episode that has not happened yet.

08:38.54
Josh Malerman
Why don't you, Tully, you can hide under the desk. There's fireworks going on and the dog got scared.

08:43.06
Michael David Wilson
a

08:44.03
Bob Pastorella
ah

08:44.30
Josh Malerman
So now, now there is a dog under the desk? This is hilarious.

08:48.06
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

08:48.62
Josh Malerman
Okay, Tully, I love you, buddy. Oh my god. I guess I should have been able to tell you were scared.

08:55.34
Josh Malerman
Yes, so... Well, man, but I was just, it was an exciting moment. at the What was the very last thing before the werewolf arrived at the door?

09:05.97
Michael David Wilson
So said we were we were talking about. Parenting, we were talking about the fact that Ursula has a lot of issues that she hasn't learned to love herself yet.

09:16.69
Josh Malerman
That's what it was, is that, but in a weird way, like, later on in the book, she does some stuff where I'm like, f yeah. You know, whereas, you know, so so to me, so it's not even about like the straight line of being like redemptive or not. It's it's not that, it's more, the whole book feels very, I don't know if layers the right word, but it's more complex than that, you know?

09:32.41
Michael David Wilson
Mmm.

09:42.87
Josh Malerman
It's not as black and white as like declarations of, you know, love or or mistrust or this and and good and bad. It's like the whole book is beyond good and evil. I mean, I wouldn't even argue that incidents around, okay, and a typical, well, that's kind of a mean word, but ah many like possession stories I've read that you'll have the family, then, uh-oh, something's wrong with one of the people. And then the rest of the book is how do we get that thing out of this person, right? And those are some of my favorite stories I've ever written, and I would love to read another one right now.

10:21.04
Josh Malerman
But I think the incidents around the house is putting a magnifying glass up to the part of that arc where the entire book is the entity's attempt to get in. The entire book is the entity's attempt to get in. And that's the question. And that's the answer that it's waiting for. And when you see it in that light, Even that is in a sense beyond good and evil. It's like, that's what this thing does.

10:54.50
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

10:55.48
Josh Malerman
And it's like not it's not quite as like alien, as meaning the movie Alien, is like it's like a killing a machine or something like that. but But like we're watching that thing trying to succeed in what it's after for like an entire novel.

11:04.70
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

11:10.12
Josh Malerman
And so it would almost be like if you imagine Reagan, an entire novel of Reagan dealing with like Captain Howdy, that phase before possession.

11:10.21
Bob Pastorella
and

11:24.70
Josh Malerman
And if you can imagine an entire novel of like Captain Howdy standing in the kitchen doorway, Captain Howdy is using the Ouija board.

11:28.47
Bob Pastorella
Bye.

11:30.82
Josh Malerman
Captain Howdy said this mom, you know, and that's exciting to me. That's exciting to me to like, let's pause and just examine that. How long did it take the thing to get in? How did it get in? What exactly did it say to Reagan to get in? What were their interactions? the The real difference with incidents around the house is that um Reagan isn't the only one that sees it. So Bella isn't the only one that sees other mommy. I mean, other mommy, I you know that's a spoiler. Let's put it this way, she doesn't care who sees her.

12:06.85
Josh Malerman
isn

12:07.18
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that that also if we're talking about parenthood and things like that, it's real easy to go into this thinking, because other mommy is called other mommy, that there's a absentee mom situation going on with Ursula. It's very, very easy to fall into that that is not what the story is about.

12:32.04
Josh Malerman
Right?

12:33.05
Bob Pastorella
ah Other mommy is is is called other mommy for whatever reason, but it's more of they're like on the, her and Bella on the same level. I felt like that they were, they were equals and they, they, they both want something.

12:52.26
Josh Malerman
Yes.

12:59.22
Bob Pastorella
Okay. And so I'm not trying to spoil anything, but other mommy is not a replacement for Ursula. Ursula is to some degree an absentee mom, um, because of, you know, what's going on in her life. And I think Mike, Michael hit it perfectly. She, she doesn't love herself. She's been through some shit. We find out. And in, in, in, in, she was in a situation where love wasn't there.

13:33.57
Bob Pastorella
And then when she's found someone who actually does give a damn about her, it, she doesn't know how to react to that.

13:43.50
Josh Malerman
Yeah, totally. Yeah.

13:45.01
Bob Pastorella
And so she, she has, she and so she, she has to find this urge to protect her daughter. It's not like it's the Daddos got it.

13:57.58
Josh Malerman
Yep.

13:58.22
Bob Pastorella
He's got it. He's had it from the get go. Ursula has to find it. And I think that that's, that's important because, and you know, she, she has to dig down deep inside herself and and we get to see that, that, that very subtle transformation happen. So this is, this is a story of where it works on multiple levels of transformation um of, of, you know, ah from, from every angle, you know, But if you're going into it thinking, oh, this is this is a metaphor for an absentee mom and all that, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

14:34.77
Josh Malerman
you know Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

14:35.83
Bob Pastorella
It's it's not that. there's there's There's traces of that.

14:37.82
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

14:41.09
Bob Pastorella
But we're we're seeing, we're seeing a like you said, ah a modern family, ah very a very very modern family.

14:48.01
Josh Malerman
yeah

14:51.72
Bob Pastorella
And it's it's handled in a very secular way. And and ah I like that.

14:56.25
Josh Malerman
Yep.

14:58.99
Bob Pastorella
um Religion pays very, very little attention to to this story. And I thought that was that was really, really good because when they do try to go that route, they they find that door is closed.

15:15.48
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

15:16.44
Bob Pastorella
And I'm like, oh, yes.

15:16.78
Josh Malerman
it's almost just

15:17.84
Bob Pastorella
Fuck yes. Yes.

15:19.39
Josh Malerman
Yeah, yeah. Yes, totally, man. And I felt the same way already. I was like, well, they have to at least go, right? I mean, you'd have to at least go. I was raised Jewish and I would probably go to a freaking church if if I saw their mommy in the house. Like, I'd be like, um, does anyone here know anything about this?

15:37.67
Bob Pastorella
Yeah.

15:38.73
Josh Malerman
Here's the real Josh coming out. See, I gotta try to like try to keep myself down. No, so my favorite line of the book, and if this is a spoiler, get rid of it later, I guess. Bella is at Dan and Amanda's house. I think Dada was there as well. Mommy pulls up. Bella's still in the living room. Dada was at the front door. lets mommy into the house and the two of them are walking up the hall and Bella hears mommy say, it's not a woman. And that's my favorite line in the whole thing because what she's saying is it's also not a man and it's it's not a person at all what I saw in Bella's room.

16:20.21
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

16:20.47
Josh Malerman
And to me, that's the moment where you're like, oh, exactly what you're saying. This is not some Coraline replacement of mom or inverse of mom or no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is something that maybe had long hair and that's why Bella calls it other mommy. Like this this is like, this is not a replacement. This is not a metaphor for that. This is something in the house that for whatever reason, Bella refers to as other mommy.

16:49.19
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

16:49.44
Josh Malerman
And that's the extent of that quote-unquote like link there. And you could argue philosophically, and we don't have to talk about this scene at all, but you could argue philosophically the beach scene kind of makes you question other mommy, other this, other this, other this, that kind of thing. Like what's other, what's not. But but yeah, that's really the extent of that right there, man, is that is is when when usulas because Ursula has seen other mommy by then and dad was not.

17:22.50
Josh Malerman
And Ursula says, I don't even, I think it just says not a woman. And we're supposed to, if you know if we're astute enough or something, we're supposed to be like, oh boy, wait a minute. Wait a minute, what's in Bella's room? what's cro what's What's crouched next to the bed? What's sliding out on his belly out of the closet? What smells like a gas station bathroom in her bathroom? like it's it's It's not, ah like what's she calling other mommy? Yeah.

17:52.03
Josh Malerman
yeah

17:53.59
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, I think too, as the story progresses, we get to understand so much more about Ursula and her intentions and of course where she's coming from. So there is that transformation and that reveal of the authentic Ursula not trying to hide who she is, you know, being vulnerable.

18:15.81
Josh Malerman
yeah

18:17.61
Michael David Wilson
But I i guess we don't see as much of a transformation in Russ and it kind of makes me wonder what what is he hiding or where are his limits you know I feel there's more to Russ than we're seeing I can't say much more than that

18:35.75
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

18:41.13
Josh Malerman
I know. I i know. I went silent there.

18:42.32
Michael David Wilson
yeah

18:44.04
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

18:44.68
Bob Pastorella
Yeah. I agree. I just, I don't know, man. we're We're getting into dangerous territory now for people who have not read this book. And it's, we sound like, we should have a spoiler episode.

19:00.94
Josh Malerman
Well, it's but it's strange because it's not like this is like ah like an Agatha Christie novel.

19:03.01
Bob Pastorella
It's like, if you've read this book, if you haven't read this book, you need to turn back now.

19:11.93
Josh Malerman
It's not like this is like a twisty and turny.

19:12.29
Michael David Wilson
Thanks.

19:14.81
Josh Malerman
It's not like it's the sixth sense or that kind of thing. And meanwhile, for some reason, it is difficult to talk about things beyond just the scenario. And I don't know why. it's like we've already said a number of things that you could argue are spoilers but really they're like just part of the the basic story of it and it still feels like a spoiler and I don't know what that is with this book. I haven't found I've said it three times already, but like you know you guys are one of the first people I've talked about this.

19:47.12
Josh Malerman
I haven't found the exact limits of the language or this kind of thing of exactly how to talk about incidents around the house. I almost feel like someone else wrote this. and I almost feel like like I finished this and sent it out to the editor and then got it back.

19:57.77
Michael David Wilson
Right.

20:05.60
Josh Malerman
And when I was rereading it, I was like, Who the, was I alone in this office?

20:13.22
Josh Malerman
Yeah, yeah. This one this one is special.

20:15.72
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

20:17.17
Josh Malerman
I got the hardcover here.

20:19.51
Michael David Wilson
Oh, yes.

20:21.11
Josh Malerman
I like the spine a lot on this one.

20:24.49
Michael David Wilson
It's looking good, yeah.

20:27.18
Josh Malerman
yeah wow

20:29.42
Michael David Wilson
I can't wait to reread it and to listen to the audiobook in its entirety because this is a book that no doubt will benefit from multiple readings because it's almost like you need it you need to read it first to almost just get get a grip of the rules in inverted commas invite commer and and what you're dealing with. So I can tell that rereading it is going to unveil other kind of layers, which is why it's so cool that we'll be having another conversation in about a week or so.

21:06.26
Josh Malerman
yeah

21:06.16
Michael David Wilson
And there's probably going to be a ton of things that both Bob and I have noticed that we didn't notice on the initial read or if not didn't notice then were illuminated. So I mean, we've said a number of times that this is incredibly difficult to talk about, but I think we've done a pretty good job because we have effectively spoke about it for one hour and 20 minutes.

21:30.63
Josh Malerman
Yes.

21:31.20
Michael David Wilson
So not bad for a book that you can't talk about.

21:31.47
Josh Malerman
Yes.

21:32.07
Bob Pastorella
Yeah.

21:35.16
Josh Malerman
Well, I mean, I know we're not done with this moment right now, but I just wanted to thank you guys so much. And Bob, even when we were off air, and you said to me that I should be ecstatic, like that actually just resonated with me. I was like, man, he's right. like like and And I am i am excited. But something about the way you said that, I was like, man, don't, you know, hold on to that, man. Like, hold on to that. Like, you should be ecstatic. Like, I mean, this is, you know, I remember a long time ago, I was in Los Angeles and I was with a friend, writer. And I said to him, this guy, this was like 10 years ago or something.

22:12.47
Josh Malerman
And I was like, you know what, Mike, you know what I want to do? I want to write the scariest book ever written, man. That's what I want to do. And he goes, Oh, you know, I'm i'm i'm kind of past like scares, you know, I'm past like, and I totally, not only did I respect what he was saying, I almost felt a little embarrassed for saying what I said, because I was like, I just want i want to write the scariest fucking book. But but he he was like, you know, I think I'm past scares. I want to write like, you know, the meat of of existence and then and like the complexity is the opposite, you know. And I was like,

22:43.98
Josh Malerman
Yeah, that's what I meant. Me too, you know? And then that I had already written Bird Box and then Carpenter's Farm came along and I was like, ooh, this one's, this is this feels, this one might be scarier than Bird Box. And listen, man, like a comedian that even has like a social social message, right? Like George Carlin or others. What do you think thrilled him more than anything else? And I'm gonna guess it's when people laughed.

23:23.10
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

23:24.12
Josh Malerman
It's like the comedian, you could be talking about the heaviest, most meaningful, intelligent thing in the world, but what you go to bed like, yeah, is that they laughed. And as a horror author, I cannot help but feel the same way. Like, like

23:41.99
Josh Malerman
you I could have like an actual societal message or or a take on on modern life, whether that's sexuality or whether it's politics or whether whatever it is. But the thing that's really gonna be like, yeah, is if it's scared someone, man. It's like there's ah like this this like root artist side of you that that's like,

24:11.23
Josh Malerman
That's the biggest thrill in the world. And when somebody says that the book that a book you wrote scared them, it's like you made a good joke.

24:19.35
Bob Pastorella
Yeah.

24:20.00
Josh Malerman
And so incidents has, and I keep saying all three of them of Bird Box, Carbonous Farm incidents have a real special place in my heart for for that reason.

24:22.97
Bob Pastorella
I think that the reason why that a lot of people who have been reading this book and will be reading this book

24:30.92
Bob Pastorella
i think that the the reason why then a lot of people who are who have been reading this book and will be reading this book are going to feel like this is one of the scariest stories that they've ever read is something that, that I figured out. And I know others have too. I'm not the only one. I didn't come up with this, but you have effectively scared the shit out of your characters. And that's it. In other words, that empathy flows. It's that it's the wind it's called empathy.

25:08.48
Josh Malerman
well Yeah.

25:08.61
Bob Pastorella
And when you scared the shit out of your characters and you're reading that and you get into the story, you can't help but to be scared. I, I was scared for them because they were scared. And that's when you, when you tap into that, that that's, that's what makes it. That's really, really what makes it is you, you got some characters that are generally because of the events and the things that they've witnessed has scared the shit out of them. And when we read that and we get scared, we're getting scared in a way that is safe for us, especially, you know, people who love horror that we, we have our own fears. And so I'm reading this book and I have that I have a safety net because I know it's not real.

26:01.05
Bob Pastorella
And that's, that's the thrill of it. And so, you know, when we get scared like that, I get giddy ah because it's it's like, I want to tell everyone, you got to fucking read this book.

26:08.35
Josh Malerman
Oh, yeah. Oh, Yeah, me too.

26:10.79
Bob Pastorella
god You know, I get giddy and excited about it.

26:14.07
Josh Malerman
Yeah, me too. Yeah.

26:15.27
Bob Pastorella
And, uh, and it's just, I know, I know Michael's probably the same way. It's, you know, it's like, you know, um, it's be like, be like, you know, Datto and, and, and mommy going around, you know, anything about the occult to be like, have you ever heard of Josh Malerman?

26:29.93
Josh Malerman
me

26:29.99
Bob Pastorella
He just wrote this fucking book that comes out next week and you need to read it. You know, and it's like, that, that's, that's a giddy feeling, man. It's and that's, that's what we, it's, it's the shit, man. That's the shit.

26:44.53
Josh Malerman
and with na

26:45.17
Bob Pastorella
That's what we want. I know you don't, you're, you have to watch, seen on the video, you see, you, you can see, yeah.

26:50.53
Josh Malerman
Yeah, it's almost like this like hot like like there was a Ramsey Campbell book where the scene happens like in a basement and Clay figures I can't think it's the doll who ate his mother I think is the name of the book And the scene fucked me up, man, where like, that hot feeling going up your arm and I was like, Oh, oh, geez. And I'm like, again, Allison, uh, hey, what, hey, what are you up to? What are you doing?

27:15.16
Bob Pastorella
Thank

27:15.19
Josh Malerman
And you know, like if you didn scare yourself, you know, and and like, that's happened a few times where there's certain books that are, um,

27:16.94
Bob Pastorella
you.

27:23.95
Josh Malerman
an undercurrent of dread and I would say pen pal is that I would say I'm thinking of ending things is that I would say the loney is that but then there's other ones that have it's almost like just a typically it's like a ca scene or two from a book you love where you're just like whoo oh boy one one for me is um when Pennywise takes a bite out of the dude's armpit at the beginning of it.

27:48.40
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

27:48.48
Josh Malerman
And you're like, he took a bite out of the armpit air, like by the heart or something, you know, like, like something about that, you're just like, o like, like, it got all the way, it got all the way under, man.

27:55.34
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

27:59.59
Josh Malerman
And, and I, those moments you want to tell your friend just like you want to tell him a fucking joke.

28:05.75
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, exactly. And it's like ah the scene in ah Ramsey Campbell's parasite when we um there's there's a basically a half formed figure crawling on the floor and stuck with me forever.

28:18.39
Josh Malerman
Oh yeah. Is that, they they go into like that house, like the the group of them go into that house and it's like the room upstairs, right?

28:26.60
Bob Pastorella
Yes.

28:27.20
Josh Malerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:28.66
Bob Pastorella
Yeah.

28:29.27
Josh Malerman
Oh yeah, that was freaky, man.

28:29.42
Bob Pastorella
That. Yeah.

28:32.09
Josh Malerman
He can do that.

28:32.49
Bob Pastorella
are

28:32.96
Josh Malerman
He pulls that off, man. And to me again, that's like that that ultimate thing. It's like, I could read an entire book and I don't know if I love it or not. I don't even know necessarily. But if you can touch that spot Like, for me it's like, dude.

28:46.20
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

28:49.62
Bob Pastorella
Mm hmm.

28:50.86
Josh Malerman
so

28:51.80
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, that's that's that's the good shit as I go.

28:51.94
Josh Malerman
That's it.

28:55.31
Josh Malerman
That's the good shit, man.

28:56.10
Bob Pastorella
Yeah.

28:57.00
Josh Malerman
Yeah.

28:58.82
Michael David Wilson
Well, I don't know if you feel it, but for me, I think this is a milestone moment for you. And, you know, you you're only just at the start of that, moment you're living that moment right now, but I. I'm going to go on record to say I think this is going to be the most significant thing to have happened for your career since Bird Box. I think that this is going to absolutely explode in terms of the impact. And it it's not just about like a book release.

29:30.21
Michael David Wilson
It's about how to scare people. It's about tapping into this universal fear. So yeah, I think you're not even aware of what's happening right now and what you've created and

29:40.67
Bob Pastorella
one Mmhmm.

29:42.69
Michael David Wilson
I can't wait to see you know the fallout from it.

29:47.65
Josh Malerman
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, me too. It's funny. I look at incidents like we were saying before with this like, I don't want to listen to it. I think that I'm being egocentric, but with this weird respect. where where it's like I'm like looking at, i I look at the book, like i it's almost like I can still, it's almost like I can feel the wind from the book. And when and when I say wind to the listeners, I'm sure you understand, but just to make sure, I'm just saying there's an open window. I'm saying there's an open window and there's a cold wind blowing through this book. um but I'm not saying like a wind, like an actiony gust of wind, man.

30:18.22
Bob Pastorella
All right.

30:21.21
Josh Malerman
I'm talking about like, is there a draft in here? Yeah, there's a draft in this whole book, man. Yeah.

30:28.65
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

30:28.81
Josh Malerman
incidents around the house. Wow.

30:33.06
Michael David Wilson
Well, I can't wait to talk further about this and to talk further about your other projects because there's a lot of other things going on. with you but I know we're going to close out this particular episode so as always thank you again for chatting with us this has been so fun and my goodness what you've done with incidents around the house it's incredible it it's affected me it really has

31:06.41
Bob Pastorella
Yes.

31:07.76
Josh Malerman
Wow. ah Thank you both, man. and And going into the reading tomorrow, wow, am I glad to have had this conversation. I'll come back to it again, Bob.

31:15.53
Bob Pastorella
Mm

31:16.44
Josh Malerman
that That one moment off air when you were like, you know, you should be ecstatic. And like, you know, sometimes someone will say something to you and it takes root immediately.

31:24.05
Bob Pastorella
hmm.

31:25.57
Josh Malerman
You don't have to think about it. And that did right there. So thank you for saying that. Thank you.

31:30.00
Bob Pastorella
Yeah. I think that like what Michael said, this this is a milestone book. It ah it really is. it's not It's not just another book coming out. You knocked it out of the park, man. You had a grand slam home run, uh, using baseball metaphors.

31:48.22
Josh Malerman
Yeah, yeah.

31:48.68
Bob Pastorella
Uh, but, uh, yeah.

31:49.00
Josh Malerman
I'm a sport.

31:51.10
Bob Pastorella
And, uh, just like, just like the Rangers had today. Yes.

31:54.45
Josh Malerman
yeah

31:54.81
Bob Pastorella
So, so and it come at the right time. And, uh, man, just, uh, wish you all the success with this because I think it's, it's going to blow some minds.

32:07.33
Josh Malerman
Right on. Amazing. OK.

32:10.88
Michael David Wilson
All right. Thank you for joining us.

32:14.27
Josh Malerman
Yes, thank you for having me.