TIH 574: Todd Keisling on Cold, Black, and Infinite, Meeting Becky LeJeune, and Spite as a Motivator

Michael David Wilson [00:00:28]:
Welcome to this is horror, a podcast for readers, writers, and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode, alongside my co host Bob Pastorella, we chat with the world's best writers about writing, life lessons, creativity, and much more. Today we are chatting to Todd Keisling, the Bram Stoker Award nominated author of books including Devil's Creek Scanlines, the final reconciliation, Ugly Little Things, collected horrors, and his latest collection, cold, black, and infinite. And that collection is primarily the reason that we sat down to talk to Todd today. And this is a two parter where we really dig deep into the stories. But not only that, we catch up with Todd after quite a substantial length of time. You see, the last time Todd was on the podcast was episode 356. That was back in July of 2020.

Michael David Wilson [00:01:49]:
So it has been four years. A lot has changed in that time, both personally and professionally for Todd. And we get into a lot of that. We talk about his new agent, we talk about his new writing routine, his new setup, now that he's writing full time. And I mean, the thing that I love about talking with Todd is he's just such an easy guy to talk to, and he's got a fascinating mind. It's a very bleak outlook at time, but packed with humor and packed with realism. So I had a great time talking to Todd. I know that Bob did as well, and I think that you are gonna get an awful lot out of listening to it.

Michael David Wilson [00:02:39]:
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Michael David Wilson [00:03:58]:
Okay, with that said, here it is. It is Todd Keisling on this is horror.

Michael David Wilson [00:04:09]:
Todd, welcome back to this is horror.

Todd Keisling [00:04:12]:
Yes. Thank you for having me. It has been a minute, hasn't it?

Michael David Wilson [00:04:17]:
Yeah. When I was looking as to how long it's been, it's actually been four years. And it does not feel that long.

Todd Keisling [00:04:25]:
It really doesn't, does it? A lot's happened. Yeah, you know, it. A lot's happened for me. A lot's happened for you guys. A lot's happened in the world.

Michael David Wilson [00:04:35]:
Yeah.

Todd Keisling [00:04:36]:
So four years feels like a long ass time, right?

Michael David Wilson [00:04:42]:
Yeah, yeah. And I know, I mean, one of those changes for you has been turning 40. So I'm wondering, I mean, how was that for you? Did it come with any epiphanies? Did it come with any more existential dread than is normal? I mean, we've covered, there's quite a lot of existential dread in general.

Todd Keisling [00:05:06]:
That's. Existential dread is, you know, kind of what I subsist on most days. Turning 40 was not what I expected it would be like. I, you know, you expect the midlife crisis kind of thing or the weight of, oh, my God, my life's half over statistically. But for me, it was kind of freeing in a way, because I spent a lot of my twenties and thirties doing stuff I didn't want to do, working and making someone else rich, you know, just being a cog and a machine. And that definitely wasn't the lifestyle for me. So turning 40, I'm 100% self employed. Granted, I wouldn't be able to do that without my, you know, my wife, you know, her income, but still, I'm a full time writer, I'm a full time graphic designer.

Todd Keisling [00:06:10]:
It's a complete 180 from what I was doing the last time we spoke. And so turning 40 was kind of like a reflection point for me, where I could finally look back in the last ten years and realize, hey, I like where I am, I like who I am, I'm happy. I couldn't say that at 30. 30 was a bad year for me. Just health issues, mental health issues, severely. If things had gone differently the year I turned 30, it's possible I wouldn't be here having this conversation. So the last decade was, I'm happy to say, a step up in all ways for me. And being able to look back, look at that, look at where I started and where I am, you know, it was a pleasant surprise for me.

Todd Keisling [00:07:24]:
So I wasn't freaking out about turning 40. No, I was actually quite pleased with it.

Michael David Wilson [00:07:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. And in terms of your mental health, would you say that now working full time has seen improvement to your mental health, that that has contributed to it positively and I mean, equally, spending such a long amount of the day of the week in solitude, have there been other things you've had to put in place or perhaps unexpected challenges?

Todd Keisling [00:07:57]:
Yeah, for sure. I mean, the mental health struggles are never going to go away. You know, the depression, the anxiety. That's something I maintain on a day to day basis most days, you know, I, you know, better living through chemistry, I, you know, I take medication for, you know, my ailments, and it kind of sustains me day to day sometimes. You know, it's just. It. Whatever's going on, you know, is still too much. And I gotta, you know, I kind of fall into that.

Todd Keisling [00:08:33]:
That pit for a while and have to work my way out of it again. Just earlier this year, we had some storm damage to our house on our roof, and it's in middle of winter, and I got to have part of my roof replaced. It's right after Christmas. So, you know, money's tight and the insurance is screwing us or, you know, screwing us around. And it was a lot. It was a lot. But then, you know, a week later, I'm good. And I've been good since then, but it's still something that I.

Todd Keisling [00:09:17]:
That I have to be aware of. I have to be cognizant of how much sleep I'm getting. I have to be, you know, aware of, you know, did I eat today? Am I drinking enough water? You know, these things, I. It sounds silly, but, you know, growing up, these weren't things I really had to think about. You know, one of the things that's happened since we last spoke, you know, I found out I'm on the spectrum, which makes so much more sense now. Everything put my whole life in perspective and realizing why I am the way I am, why I see things the way I do, and, you know, how I react to certain things. It's definitely something that's way more. Way more in tune with myself.

Todd Keisling [00:10:12]:
It allows me to be more in tune with myself, I guess I should say. Yeah, you know, diabetic found that out. I knew that was coming. So the existential dread hasn't gone away is what I'm trying to say.

Michael David Wilson [00:10:27]:
Right.

Todd Keisling [00:10:28]:
It's. It's still ever present, but I feel like we're friends now. We're not. We're not at odds. I've embraced it.

Michael David Wilson [00:10:35]:
Yeah.

Todd Keisling [00:10:35]:
And I'm sorry, I kind of went off on a tangent. What was the rest of your question?

Michael David Wilson [00:10:40]:
No, no. I mean, it's all good. And, I mean, you mentioned finding out that you're on the spectrum, and I think it was Gemara Moore who, when she found out, you know, a recent thing, it was very liberating because it then helped to explain, you know, behaviors or ways of being that beforehand, I recall she was saying, you know, she felt like, what's wrong with me? Or, why am I doing this? And it's like, no, there's nothing wrong with me. So it was quite a freeing experience. And, of course, people can go back and listen to that conversation with Gemma, who will put it far more eloquently than I have.

Todd Keisling [00:11:26]:
She's got a. She's got a good way of putting things. More eloquent than any of us, really.

Michael David Wilson [00:11:33]:
Right. Yeah.

Todd Keisling [00:11:35]:
So, yeah, it was definitely. It was definitely freeing in a lot of ways to have that understanding.

Michael David Wilson [00:11:44]:
I mean, in terms of now doing this full time, how do you schedule your day? Or, I mean, do you schedule it, or is it more. What kind of comes in and demands most attention is what gets your priority.

Todd Keisling [00:12:04]:
I mean, you know, paying work, of course, always gets the priority. You know, I have clients who come to me, and they want a book formatted or they want a cover or they want a logo for, you know, their business. You know, I prioritize that. I kind of, if I have multiple projects going on at the same time, I'll kind of, you know, I'll schedule, like, two hour blocks to work on each thing. And if it's a dry period or if I'm in between projects or I'm waiting on, you know, a client to say yay or nay, I switch gears and I work on my writing, so I can't say I'm a full time writer. I'm more like a 50% of the time writer, but I get to make my own hours. Like, you know, I said, I think it was before we started recording. I was up till 05:00 this morning working on my next book.

Todd Keisling [00:13:01]:
And obviously, I couldn't do that when I worked in an office because, you know, I've always been a night person, but everybody who works in corporate is a sociopath who only lives and dies by the nine to five, and that's just not how I'm wired. So it's quite nice to be able to set my own schedule and decide if I wake up one day and I'm like, you know, I don't feel like working today, and I don't. And it's wonderful yeah.

Michael David Wilson [00:13:35]:
Yeah. I mean, you. You said as well that, I mean, you kind of see yourself as a 50% of the time writer rather than a full time. But I. I wonder if that is true, because, I mean, I often, when we're talking to so called full time writers and I find this for myself, there's only so much we can do in a day before we get diminishing returns. It feels like maybe there's kind of like, let's say two to 4 hours, varying from writer to writer, where you're going to be operating at your highest level, but then after that, it is diminishing returns. So if you can get two to 4 hours in, you're probably a full time writer anyway. And a lot of full time writers, they're then filling the rest of the time with writing adjacent work.

Todd Keisling [00:14:37]:
Yeah, two to 4 hours is kind of the sweet spot for me. Some days, though, it's only an hour, but something I try to do every day is to at least make some kind of progress. Even if I write one sentence and the manuscript, at least I can say, okay, I'm a little bit, you know, a little bit further ahead than I was the day before. It's kind of these. It's part of the mental gymnastics that I have to do to keep myself in, you know, above water when it comes to just my own morale. So, you know, every book, every story has its ups and downs. And, you know, in terms of. You go through the motions as an artist, like, oh, this is the coolest idea I've ever had.

Todd Keisling [00:15:28]:
Shit, nobody's gonna read this. This sucks. Okay. I'm gonna finish the fucker anyway. All right. I'm gonna put it out in the world, and people like it. Great. And if they don't, oh, well.

Todd Keisling [00:15:39]:
And you kind of go through these motions, through everything you do creatively. I do the same thing with client work. It's like I. I get about the halfway point, and I'm thinking, they're going to hate this. But then you keep pushing forward, and you start to be able to see the threads and see the pieces, how they fit together. It's great.

Michael David Wilson [00:16:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I feel actually having the reservation or the idea that everybody might hate what you put out in the world can actually be a good thing because it allows you to take more creative chances and to be bolder in your moves. And also, I think, you know, if we've got a body of work and we're going to continue writing and putting out novels and putting out stories, the reality is that if people hate one book. I mean, so what? In terms of the general overview of your work and of your life, but if we felt that we have to please everyone or get a kind of minimum token of appreciation, then we're probably going to be less daring in what we do, and it's going to get a more lukewarm tepidhenne response, or it's just not going to be the kind of thing that is authentic and true to what we want to do.

Todd Keisling [00:17:15]:
Yeah, I forget who said it, but if what you're doing isn't uncomfortable, you're not trying hard enough, right? Yeah. So that was kind of in the back of my mind after Devil's Creek came out and was a big success, and then I'm like, well, shit, does everybody expect, like, these massive tomes of, you know, small town horror stories for me now? And it took me a little while to kind of find my footing again because it felt like everything I wanted to work on was in danger of ballooning into this massive project. And that was the last thing I wanted at the time. But, you know, there's also the. The element of, you know, I want to please the fans, but at the same time, I have to be true to myself. And, you know, some people will be disappointed when the next. The follow up to Devil's Creek, the book I'm working on now, as a matter of fact, is nothing like Devil's Creek at all. It exists in that universe, but it's an entirely different story, entirely new set of characters, and it's not all existing in one place.

Todd Keisling [00:18:40]:
It's happening in several places in succession, and it's got a different vibe. It's a, you know, I'm a different person now than I was, you know, five or six years ago when I originally wrote devil's Creek. So, yeah, that's definitely. It's always something in the back of my mind is, okay, well, the people who have followed my career, are they gonna like this? And then I kind of have to put myself in check and remind myself that I'm not doing this for them. And, you know, writing, to me, is a. At least writing and storytelling is a very selfish act, because I'm writing because I love stories and I want to tell myself this story. It's wonderful that other people read it and love it and connect with it, but they're not. I try not to think about them at all when I'm writing, actively writing a story and composing it.

Todd Keisling [00:19:39]:
I'll deal with that later. I'll deal with, well, I can refine it. I can hone it, include this or take this out. But when I'm in a first draft, it's all for me.

Bob Pastorella [00:19:51]:
I think it's kind of when you're. When you're writing like, let's say devil's Creek, you put lightning in a bottle. And.

Todd Keisling [00:19:59]:
Thank you.

Bob Pastorella [00:20:00]:
If readers expect you to take that same bolt of lightning and put it into a different bottle, that. That's impossible. You can't do that. You're going to take something totally different and put it in a bottle. And I'm hoping I'm making sense here, but it's like, you know, it's. You can't.

Bob Pastorella [00:20:21]:
You may cover the same themes over and over and over again because those are your obsessions, your nightmares, your dreams. But for me, I couldn't present it the same way. You know, I just. If someone. If someone paid me enough money, I could probably fake it. But, you know, if someone said, hey, I want you to write a sequel to Mojo rising. Write it exactly the same way. You're fucking crazy, man.

Bob Pastorella [00:20:49]:
I can't do it. You know, and there's ideas that I have. They would be. They would be different. It would be a different project.

Todd Keisling [00:21:02]:
Yeah.

Bob Pastorella [00:21:02]:
And, you know, you can't. You can't do that. And so if people are upset because your next book isn't Devil's Creek, well, guess what? They can just go read Devil's Creek again. You know? That's, to me.

Todd Keisling [00:21:14]:
Yeah.

Bob Pastorella [00:21:15]:
That's where. That's where you got to be with this stuff.

Todd Keisling [00:21:18]:
It's. It's very much a. An example of how our stories are really just a reflection of us at the time. You know, like, I. I went back recently and looked at the first novel I ever wrote, and I couldn't write that. Now, I'm not a 17 year old kid pissed off at the world. I'm still pissed off at the world, but for different reasons. But, you know, I've got, you know, 30 years of experience, almost 30 years of experience now to on top of it.

Todd Keisling [00:21:55]:
But, you know, at the same time, it's cool to look back and think, okay, well, you know, no one else could have written that but me at that age, at that time, in that environment. And it's, you know, it's almost like a time capsule of sorts, and it's very much a mirror of ourselves at certain stages of our life.

Bob Pastorella [00:22:18]:
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. You gotta be careful saying that, though. Readers gonna start thinking that you are your characters.

Todd Keisling [00:22:25]:
Oh, God.

Michael David Wilson [00:22:26]:
Nobody who listens to this is horror would think that we have smart and discerning listeners and viewers.

Todd Keisling [00:22:35]:
Oh, my God. How could you write such awful stuff? Are you a psychopath? Yeah, I've had that question before. From extended family, as a matter of fact.

Michael David Wilson [00:22:43]:
Oh, no, not from within the family.

Todd Keisling [00:22:46]:
I shut that shit down real fast.

Bob Pastorella [00:22:49]:
You told them that you were a psychopath, didn't you?

Todd Keisling [00:22:52]:
Like, did you kill, did you hurt small animals when you were a child? And I'm like, no, I. I write horror fiction, so I don't hurt people like you.

Bob Pastorella [00:23:03]:
I like that answer.

Todd Keisling [00:23:04]:
Yeah, it's a great answer.

Michael David Wilson [00:23:07]:
Good way to stop a conversation. I totally agree with, you know, your work being a kind of time capsule, and, I mean, if I look back at my own work, then even if it wouldn't be obvious to the reader, I can tell what place I was in and what I was thinking, and it. It's just a much cooler way of keeping a diary, in a way.

Todd Keisling [00:23:35]:
Yeah.

Michael David Wilson [00:23:36]:
It's a hidden diary. It's a secret diary with your feelings and your messages take out a scene.

Todd Keisling [00:23:44]:
From any of my books, and I could probably tell you where I was when I wrote it.

Michael David Wilson [00:23:49]:
Yeah.

Todd Keisling [00:23:49]:
And, you know, what I was listening to or what inspired it. And, you know, it's cool like that. That's one of the things I love about the craft and, you know, and what I love, you know, especially because, you know, being in the business, you get to know your peers and know other authors, and it's really cool when you're a fan of theirs and you get to know them, and it's like, then you can just ping them and say, like, hey, I'm on. Am I reading your book? Was this inspired by da da da da da? You know, they can answer. Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I'm right. I don't know. It's all fun.

Todd Keisling [00:24:27]:
That's fun to me. That's the fun part of the. Part of the whole. Being a writer is seeing. Being able to pick apart and see, where did this come from and what inspired you to take this completely different element and mash it together, and somehow it works when it absolutely shouldn't.

Michael David Wilson [00:24:49]:
Yeah. And I think much as we can't step into the same river twice, we can't write the same story twice. If I were to write the girl in the video now, then it would be a completely different story to the one that I wrote, you know, back in, whenever I wrote it. Maybe 2019. Maybe 2018. I don't know. Things. Time is confusing, and the pandemic has distorted it even more.

Todd Keisling [00:25:18]:
But time isn't real.

Michael David Wilson [00:25:20]:
Yeah, it's not real. There you go. But, yeah, it would be a different book. And, I mean, just as we have to decide a kind of time to release the book, to send it to the editors, to send it to the agents, even after I've published a book, there will be times around think, you know, if I was still writing it, this is what I'd now change and do differently.

Todd Keisling [00:25:49]:
Yeah, absolutely. So many things I would go back and change about, you know, all of my stories, little things here and there that people would never notice. Some things people would notice. All the folks who complained about too much sludge and worms and stuff coming out of people's orifices and devil's creek. I would just do more of that. Just out of spite, really. You know, go harder.

Bob Pastorella [00:26:18]:
Go home, man.

Todd Keisling [00:26:19]:
I'm just being suspicious. Or am I?

Michael David Wilson [00:26:26]:
A simple answer is to write a motivation. Why did you do it? Out of spite.

Todd Keisling [00:26:32]:
Out of spite.

Michael David Wilson [00:26:33]:
Simple as that.

Todd Keisling [00:26:35]:
So much of my writing career can be attributed to spite because somebody said I couldn't do something.

Michael David Wilson [00:26:40]:
Yeah.

Todd Keisling [00:26:42]:
Or shouldn't do something, like, well, fuck you, I'll do it anyway and I'll make it work. And then I'm gonna rub your face on it.

Michael David Wilson [00:26:52]:
Yeah. I don't know which is more kind of motivating. If somebody says you shouldn't or if someone says you couldn't maybe could and just edges out shouldn't, but they're both gonna make you want to do it.

Todd Keisling [00:27:08]:
There's this comic strip that I always think of when this, the topic of spite and motivation comes up. And it's this four panel comic of this little kid and his mother is telling him not to make a face like that or else it'll stay that way. And then he goes on to, like, the next, the next panel is like him winning an award for best face and he's making the face and he, like, gets really successful because of his face. And the last panel is him. Like, he's got a medal around his neck and he's like, pointing to it, to his ma, making the face that always just reminds me of that. Like, that's, I relate to that so much. And the first thing that comes to mind as well as the comic strip is a teacher that I had in college, junior year of college. This would have been 20 04 20 03 20 04 she has since gone on to become a New York Times bestselling author.

Todd Keisling [00:28:17]:
I'm not gonna say her name. Her book was made into a lifetime movie but the first day of class, she told us that she would not accept any genre fiction, that it had to be traditional, literary, tight assed fiction. And to me, I find a lot of that stuff boring. So I spent the entire class, the entire semester, writing stuff that would piss her off. I got a b in the class, the only writing class in college. I did not get an a. And I'm hoping that in my career, I can reach a point where I am also a New York Times bestselling author, because I'm going to look her up and just email her out of the blue and say, hey, this is genre fiction. Remember that thing you told me not to write?

Michael David Wilson [00:29:17]:
It'd be even sweeter if you could, you know, capture the New York Times best selling list. And then your book is, you know, a number of positions above her. That would be beautiful.

Todd Keisling [00:29:32]:
Yeah, that would be something. But that's a good, good example of spite being a motivator. That's just one example of someone telling me not to do something because of x, y, and z reason. And that runs entirely in opposition of where I'm. Where I want to go. And, you know, so it's. It becomes a mission of proving someone wrong.

Michael David Wilson [00:29:58]:
Yeah, well, it seems to be working out so far. Yeah. Yeah.

Todd Keisling [00:30:05]:
People are probably listening to this, and they're like, man, he's such an asshole. God. Holding a grudge for 20 years. Well, you should meet the rest of the Keeslings.

Michael David Wilson [00:30:19]:
There you go. And, I mean, I know another change since we last spoke is getting your agent, Becky.

Todd Keisling [00:30:30]:
Yes.

Michael David Wilson [00:30:31]:
So I want to know about how that came about, how you initially met, and then how that's going for you.

Todd Keisling [00:30:41]:
So I made a decision at the end of 2022 to split with my former agent. So, beginning of 2023, I had a novel that I had just finished cleaning up, getting ready for submission, and I started sending out queries like everybody else. Had a couple of, uh, a couple of, uh, full requests, uh, and one that I thought was going to work out, but then it just, you know, oh, yes, I really like this. Da da da da da. And then the offer just never came. It was just one delay after another after another, and we're going on, like, months. So I, you know, I was kind of. Kind of irritated by that.

Todd Keisling [00:31:31]:
And so I went into stoker con 2023 in Pittsburgh. I went into that hoping that, you know, I could talk to a few friends and talk to Sam Rebelline to find out, you know, who his agent is, who sold. You know, I wanted to find out who sold Edenville to William Morrow, because that's a fantastic book. And so weird that I was like, I'm not surprised. Like, it got published by a big five publisher. But at the same time, I was surprised that the weirdness did not deter them. So I, you know, I talked to him about his agent, and it just so happened that that week, I had followed Becky on Twitter. And because, you know, I was basically just, you know, following agents that were kind of open to submissions and, you know, looking for stuff within my genre.

Todd Keisling [00:32:31]:
You know, the book I had to shop was very horror slash weird fiction, cosmic horror kind of thing. So I was actively looking for agents like that. And first day of the con, my friend Daisha Arnold walks in with, with Becky. I didn't know it was Becky. And Daisha introduced us. And thank you again, Daisha, if you're listening. And I said to Becky, I'm like, why do you look familiar? And she says, because we just followed each other on Twitter, maybe. And, like, she's like, I'm an agent.

Todd Keisling [00:33:13]:
Like, ah, I need to talk to you. And, you know, I didn't have. I didn't have an appointment with the pitch sessions that she was doing that weekend, but she made 45 minutes for me to just sit down and talk, and we just hit it off. You know, the first thing she asked me is, why do you feel like you need an agent? And that was such a non agent thing to ask, but applicable because it's a real question these days. It's not like it was, you know, 30 years ago, where you absolutely have to have an agent if you want to get anywhere in publishing. Well, now you can have a successful career in the. In the independent and small press space and never have an agent. So, you know, I basically picture the book.

Todd Keisling [00:34:00]:
I talked about my career up to that point where we were, where I wanted to be. And, you know, I wanted to make a. Make a stab at, you know, getting something with the big. Big five or big four or whatever they are now, the. The big monopoly presses. And then, you know, you can't do that without an agent. It's very rare that you can do that without an agent, so. And honestly, I just wanted somebody in my corner, somebody that is a business partner, essentially, who's invested in my success.

Todd Keisling [00:34:35]:
And, you know, it. It turned out to be a great conversation. She bought a copy of Devil's Creek for me that Friday at the author signing. I gave her the last printed arc of cold, black and infinite that I had. And by Sunday, she had already read part of Devil's Creek and was interested, and so I sent her. I sent her the manuscript for the new book following Monday, and by Thursday, I had an offer. And, you know, it's been. It's been great ever since.

Todd Keisling [00:35:13]:
Like, I owe so much to her for her insight. She's very knowledgeable, and I can't sing her praises enough. That's how Becky happened.

Michael David Wilson [00:35:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. And then kind of going forward, I mean, what have been some of the deals or conversations or pivotal moments that you are able to talk about? And that's probably a major caveat.

Todd Keisling [00:35:43]:
I can only talk about sales that have happened. We sold foreign rights and a couple of territories for scanlines and for Devil's Creek. Devil's Creek will be coming out in Spain, believe at the end of this year, maybe this fall, scanlines will also be coming out in Spain. And we just. The book that I. That we've been shopping for a while, we just found a home for it. That's all I can say, because that has not been formally announced in any respect other than social media and me posting my, you know, me signing the contract. So I'm happy to say that has a home.

Todd Keisling [00:36:28]:
And even though it was passed on by quite a few publishers, we had a lot of good feedback on it and requests to see something else. So that's very exciting for me. It's why I'm busting my ass to try and finish this draft of the new book. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a very educational experience because she comes from the bookseller world, so she's got insight into distribution and how bookstores actually order their books and what goes into deciding factors, what they stock and everything. And it's so much more complicated than you would ever think it. It is so.

Todd Keisling [00:37:20]:
Yeah. That's all I can really say, though. I can't talk about anything else that's in the works, unfortunately.

Michael David Wilson [00:37:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. And in terms of this book that you said you're working frantically on, is this the Sundowners dance or is it.

Todd Keisling [00:37:41]:
The sundowners dance is the one that we just sold.

Michael David Wilson [00:37:44]:
Ah, okay.

Michael David Wilson [00:37:45]:
Okay.

Todd Keisling [00:37:46]:
Sundowners dance is, uh, also exists in the devil's Creek universe, but it takes place here in Pennsylvania. It's not a. It's not a rural Kentucky story. The book I am working on now is called Revelation Road. That is very much set in Kentucky or parts of it. The whole thing is like a chase from Detroit, Michigan, to eastern Kentucky, deep in the heart of Appalachia.

Michael David Wilson [00:38:20]:
Yeah, I recall, I think it was with Rob Olson. You were saying as well, with this being a new devil's Creed universe story.

Todd Keisling [00:38:30]:
Yeah, I'm calling that the south line mythos.

Michael David Wilson [00:38:35]:
Yes.

Todd Keisling [00:38:37]:
So, yeah, everything going forward for me is going to involve the Southland in some way. It's going to be more likely than not that it'll exist there in that universe. Anything that doesn't would be the exception.

Michael David Wilson [00:38:56]:
Yeah. Which brings us rather nicely to the latest collection.

Todd Keisling [00:39:02]:
Yes.

Michael David Wilson [00:39:04]:
Called black and infinite. And, I mean, in many ways, it's kind of read like old school Stephen King, but with Legotti's nihilism and then kind of flashes of Clive Barker. There's so much that's gone into it. And just as you think you tonally get it, you know, you throw something in like happy town, yuletide massacre or Black Friday and a complete aesthetic shift. But my goodness, was this an awful lot of fun to read.

Todd Keisling [00:39:46]:
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I definitely wear my influences on my sleeve. You know, those are all. Everybody you named or, you know, they're huge have been, had an impact on me. Their fiction has. So there's definitely a current of pessimism or nihilism running through all those stories, just in a kind of not quite sarcastic but smirky sort of way. I think Clay Chapman found most of the stories hilarious, which probably says more about him than me.

Todd Keisling [00:40:28]:
Love you, Clay. But, yeah, there's, there's a lot of. There's some dark humor in there that I'm happy that most people have picked up on. But also, I. The thing I like about collections and short stories specifically is that I get to try different things that I normally wouldn't write. And when you put them together in a collection, it kind of serves as a greatest hits album of some sort and also shows range. That was one thing. That feedback I got on my first collection of little Things was that it, you know, it's.

Todd Keisling [00:41:07]:
The stories are a wide spectrum types of stories, and I don't think cold, black and infinite is as wide a spectrum, but there's still some variation in there. And speaking personally, happy town Yuletide Massacre is one of my favorites.

Michael David Wilson [00:41:28]:
Oh, yeah. It's one of my favorites as well, in fact. And we will.

Todd Keisling [00:41:34]:
Thank you.

Michael David Wilson [00:41:34]:
We will get to that shortly. But of course, I mean, we should start with the opener, midnight in the Southlands. And have you ever listened to the Shooter Jennings album, Black Ribbons? Because it really gave me that vibe.

Todd Keisling [00:41:55]:
I haven't. I haven't listened to any of Shooter's stuff.

Michael David Wilson [00:41:59]:
Yeah. Black ribbons in particular is incredibly unique, and it has Stephen King as the kind of radio dj.

Todd Keisling [00:42:10]:
That's.

Michael David Wilson [00:42:11]:
You need to listen to.

Todd Keisling [00:42:14]:
You sold me already. What is it called again? I'm going to write this down.

Michael David Wilson [00:42:18]:
It's called Black Ribbons. It is shooter Jennings and hero Fant. I can put it in the show notes and I can please do send you an email as well with this.

Bob Pastorella [00:42:35]:
Yes.

Todd Keisling [00:42:35]:
That's cool.

Bob Pastorella [00:42:37]:
It's quite good.

Michael David Wilson [00:42:38]:
Quite good. It's a masterpiece ball game.

Todd Keisling [00:42:41]:
No, I. I haven't listened to that, but it's on my radar now. Probably check that out tomorrow.

Michael David Wilson [00:42:49]:
Yeah. But I believe the, the impetus for this, in fact, was discovering the Valley View ferry in 2021. So let's talk about that.

Todd Keisling [00:43:03]:
You know, so where I grew up in Kentucky is like, you get, you get on the highway I 75, and it's a straight shot north to Lexington, which is where I went to college. Now, on the way there, there's an exit and a big bridge that goes over a river called Clay's Ferry. It's Clays Ferry Bridge. And because I just never thought about it when my friend, my friend Hoss, that's his nickname, but he's been hoss for as long as I've known him. When we went to visit him and his wife and stay with him for a few days, they told me about this ferry. I'm like, okay, there's a ferry. You can take a ferry across the river. He's like, yeah, you know, Clay's ferry.

Todd Keisling [00:43:58]:
Oh, my God. You just blew my fucking mind. That never occurred to me. So we, you know, took some back roads and you can go from Richmond, Kentucky to Lexington, Kentucky, you know, completely off the highway, and you take this ferry. And it was such a. I mean, it's. I've been on ferries before. There wasn't anything particularly special about it.

Todd Keisling [00:44:24]:
It was a short boat ride. It was, for me, the allure of it just being there and being something that I didn't know existed. And it's like it just materialized overnight for me. And that plus, you know, my memories of Clay's ferry bridge, that used to be a popular place where people would kill themselves. I'll never forget my mom telling me that one day when I was in high school, some guy jumped off Clays ferry Bridge and he screamed the whole way down. She was very specific in telling me that. He screamed the whole way down. How the fuck does she know this? She wasn't there.

Todd Keisling [00:45:09]:
I'm just going. Telling you what she told me. That has always stayed in my head. He immediately regretted his decision as soon as it was too late to do anything about it. You know, he's. He was content to do this until he was, you know, in the arms of gravity, and then he's screaming all the way down. So that was kind of in the back of my mind when it came to midnight in the southlands. And that, plus I was thinking about late night drives that I used to take in college after a bad breakup.

Todd Keisling [00:45:51]:
You know, the kind of. The loneliness, the sadness of it all, and it all kind of just came together in this really melancholic story. It's very, you know, people love that story, and I'm grateful that they love it, but to me, it's a very sad story just because I know where it came from. And holding it all together is my love of coast to coast am with art bell. I used to listen to his recordings of his radio shows when I was in college. That's where I really got into it. And it just seemed to fit. I can't really say why it seemed to fit, but it just.

Todd Keisling [00:46:37]:
I don't know, it just felt right.

Michael David Wilson [00:46:40]:
Yeah. There's something incredibly disquieting and alluring about these radio conspiracy theory shows as well, that, yeah, you kind of keep listening, but you're also unsettled, which I suppose is a good metaphor for the state as to why we read horror in general.

Todd Keisling [00:47:04]:
Yeah, it's the. I guess, for me, the appeal of coast to Coast AM and those types of radio shows. Like, there's a podcast I listen to every week called Jim Harold's campfire, and it's basically people just calling in, talking about weird shit that's happened to them or experiences they've had paranormal and other, you know, just this weird things happening. And the. The appeal to me is, is one you're hearing from other people that are just like you. You're hearing from people who could be your next door neighbor. You know, we've all seen or experienced something we can't explain or felt something we can't explain. And it's.

Todd Keisling [00:47:56]:
There's this uncanny side to. To reality that we all know. And sometimes it reaches out and touches us, but we can't. We can't quantify it with, you know, science. We can't, you know, have. Provide absolute proof that, yes, this is something that happened. You're just gonna have to trust me, trust my word, trust my experience. And I love that.

Todd Keisling [00:48:24]:
I love, in my opinion, like, storytelling is something that's in us genetically. It is something that we have always done, going all the way back to when we're hunter gatherers. Huddling around a fire at night and telling stories to our children because of the dangers that lurk outside of that circle of light. You know, we're going back to when we were drawing, drawing on cave walls, you know, stories of, this is something that happened. This is something that happened to me. And for that. That moment of time as the storyteller is sharing their experience, it doesn't matter if it's true or not, because if they're. If they're good at what they do, you are there with them.

Todd Keisling [00:49:16]:
You are living it with them. And that's why I really look at storytelling specifically. Writing is just a method of storytelling, but storytelling specifically is sacred. It's a part of us. It's genetic. And that's one of the reasons why those types of shows always interest me, because it's not just weird people calling in about talking about conspiracy theories. It's these people are actually convinced that this stuff is real. And for, you know, a fraction of the time, you know, in my life, I can believe them.

Todd Keisling [00:49:56]:
I can believe that these things are real. I know they're not. You know, or maybe they are. I don't know. But to me, it's the. That's the appeal of it.

Michael David Wilson [00:50:07]:
What's the weirdest or most unsettling thing that's happened to. To you in your life?

Todd Keisling [00:50:14]:
Oh, wow. So I don't remember if we talked about this on the last time we were on. We were on together, but a little bit of background on me after my parents divorced when I was very young. I was maybe still an infant when they divorced. My mom and I lived with my great grandmother for a time while my mom got on her feet. So my mom was, like, 20 when she had me, so she's still a kid herself, and so mom's working during the day and going to school at night. So my great grandmother, slash granny, as I call her, who was the basis for imaging in devil's creek. You know, I would sit with her.

Todd Keisling [00:51:06]:
You know, she would babysit me essentially every day. And we grew very close, and I saw some really weird shit in her house that I can't explain. And, like, it. I wasn't alone. Like, there are other members of my family that experienced weird things, too, and we couldn't quite figure out or understand why they all involved. The upstairs bedroom, it was an addition to the house that was built on. And, you know, it's not like the lumber to build the room came from, like, a haunted forest or anything. It wasn't like that.

Todd Keisling [00:51:46]:
Like, you know, and I wrote about this, actually, in my story, saving granny from the devil, which was partially autobiographical. There's a scene in that story that is. That happened. It involved a stuffed animal moving on its own. I have this image in my head vividly, and I'll go to my grave swearing that it actually happened. People don't believe me. That's fine. I know what I saw.

Todd Keisling [00:52:24]:
This fucking stuffed monkey crawled to the edge of its display shelf and fell off. I watched it happen. I see it in my head right now as I'm telling you about it. And it wasn't like a wind up toy or anything. It was just a stuffed animal. It was all cotton. And, you know, that's something weird that happened to me. You know, I felt other things, heard my name, called, you know, while they're alone, you know, strange shit.

Todd Keisling [00:53:02]:
I can't explain it. I don't necessarily believe in ghosts. So what was it? I don't know, but it's a cool story.

Michael David Wilson [00:53:12]:
Oh, yeah. And, I mean, what. What does that experience do in terms of how it impacts your own beliefs? I suppose in terms of, like, spirituality, in terms of the afterlife, in terms of just these unexplainable things. Because, of course, we spoke before about you growing up in a very christian town and turning away from religion. We've read Devil's Creek. If people are on edge as to what your thoughts towards, you know, these small town religious communities might just be.

Todd Keisling [00:53:59]:
I just wanted to make it clear so nobody's knocking on my door, inviting me to church. Okay.

Michael David Wilson [00:54:04]:
Yeah. And for those who still felt it was ambiguous, there is a story called Gethsemane towards the end of this collection, just. Just in case they haven't got it yet. But, yeah, I'm wondering what this. Not just the stuffed monkey, but, you know, everything. The whole kind of culmination, the packaging of these weird experiences in your grandmother's house has done. In terms of your own beliefs.

Todd Keisling [00:54:39]:
I mean, at the time, you know, I was a very confused child. Like, I, you know, was raised to believe this. I didn't really turn away from religion until I was an adult, you know, and I. Because it was expected of me, I made a lot of attempts to try and conform myself into this mold because it would have just made my life so much easier, and I just couldn't do it. So for a while, I believed it was ghosts, but, you know, realistically, that doesn't make sense. You know, there was nothing bad about the house. Nothing happened there. You know, it was just this thing that happened that can't be explained and never will be.

Todd Keisling [00:55:28]:
It's funny you mentioned spirituality because I. I don't know if he listens to the show, but I was talking to Brian Keane a few weeks ago, and he's working on a follow up book to his end of the road, his non fiction book. He's working on a follow up to that. And he was. He's, you know, he's big into thinking about, you know, the latter part of his life because he's getting up there in years. He's in his fifties, I think. And, you know, we were talking about, well, what happens when you die? You know, it's that age old question, like, well, what do you think happens? And, you know, it. This, oddly enough, had been on my mind just trying to, you know, things I would like to believe, but ultimately just can't know.

Todd Keisling [00:56:20]:
We won't know until we die. I'd like to believe that it's got more to do with quantum theory, honestly. Like, I. Like, there are infinite number of ourselves right now having the same conversation, but everyone's different, so, you know, every moment you've ever had deja vu, every moment that you've ever felt like you've been this, been here before, or you've had this conversation before, or you've said this thing, and it just didn't feel right, I kind of feel like that. I want to believe that that's like a moment where one version of yourself is ending and it's unifying with another thread of yourself. Like, so what happens when you die? You basically step into another reality as yourself. You know, how the logistics of that. I don't know.

Todd Keisling [00:57:20]:
It's just something that I think about from time to time, because I think. I find, I think the elements of quantum theory more plausible than just having our essence live on as, you know, some phantom figure in a, you know, in a house somewhere that's stuck there, repeating the same thing over and over or being, you know, causing mischief to the owner because they don't like what color wallpaper they chose in their house. I mean, that's all fun to think about. It's all fun to, you know, to fantasize about in some ways, like, oh, well, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna come back and haunt your ass. Well, no, I don't think it works like that, but I do think that there's some kind of scientific basis for what we would, in our ignorance, call an afterlife. So I'm sure that by this point, you will have tons of your listeners either writing in to tell me I'm an idiot or I don't know what I'm talking about or how high are you right now? The answer is not high enough, apparently. Yeah, like these are again, I don't know.

Todd Keisling [00:58:44]:
I don't know if this is true. I don't know if this is going to happen. It's equally as plausible that when we die, that's it. There is no continuance of self. The idea of self is just a balance of chemicals in our brainstor. This is why I found all those monologues in midnight mass to be intriguing. I loved them and didn't hate them because I thought they were, you know, they're very. Well, they're conversations that I feel like more of us should be having outside of the realm of heaven and hell and, you know, paradise after, you know, after we die.

Todd Keisling [00:59:26]:
If we could have, like, real conversations through a scientific lens about what happens after we die outside of the bounds of religion, I think we would be so much better off as a species. But I digress.

Bob Pastorella [00:59:43]:
I think about that, the quantum theory of life and death a lot. And I always come back to how many times have I died?

Todd Keisling [00:59:51]:
Yeah.

Bob Pastorella [00:59:52]:
And I, because I feel like that there's moments in my life that I should have died. Near near misses, accidents, stupid things I've done. It's like, shit, I could have. I could have died. You know, our ghosts, simply echoes of past lives that can be scientifically measured. We just don't have the tools to do it. Based upon, based upon quantum theory. I mean, like you, Todd.

Bob Pastorella [01:00:24]:
I don't know. I'm just throwing this out there.

Todd Keisling [01:00:28]:
Yeah.

Bob Pastorella [01:00:29]:
But it, to me, it makes sense on if if I have died, how would I know it? Especially if it was an accident, if it was something that I never would have seen coming.

Todd Keisling [01:00:44]:
Mm hmm.

Bob Pastorella [01:00:45]:
How would I fucking know it?

Todd Keisling [01:00:47]:
Yeah.

Bob Pastorella [01:00:48]:
You know how to, how to put that into a story? Fuck, dude. I mean, I don't know. This.

Todd Keisling [01:00:55]:
Yeah.

Bob Pastorella [01:00:56]:
I don't know if it could be put into a story. It's pretty convoluted.

Todd Keisling [01:01:00]:
I think it it kind of works. Like, I always think of Stephen King's example in wizarding glass with the thinny, the idea of, like, you know, you've got two planes of reality, like, basically, like, pushed up against one another, and at some point they overlap. Mm hmm. And, you know, could that explain hauntings? Maybe? I don't know, but, you know, it it would kind of, it would make sense if. Cause sometimes, you know, I've heard stories of hauntings where you know, there's a ghostly figure in the room, but they seem just as surprised to see you standing there as you are of them. And it's like you're both saying, what the fuck are you doing here? And it's kind of like one of those cases where realities have overlaps or things are threadbare in between, and you're kind of getting a glimpse of what's on the other side just next door.

Michael David Wilson [01:02:04]:
Yeah, I love that idea when I, the so called ghost is equally as surprised as you are.

Todd Keisling [01:02:11]:
It's like that, that movie the others with Nicole Kidman that came out in the early two thousands. Yeah, it's exactly that. Like, to, to the ghosts, you know, we're the ghost to them and vice versa. It's, it was really interesting, you know, portrayal of that. And I don't know, I think that's something I'd love to see more, more in media is, you know, that, that conversation happening. Yeah. You know, Bob, you're right. It's like, well, how would you know? Well, I mean, that's the beauty of it.

Todd Keisling [01:02:45]:
You wouldn't. That's, that's the nature of, you know, how things are cosmically balanced and all this beautiful chaos have no way of knowing. And a lot of people think that's terrifying. But I find that there's freedom in that. It's like, well, now you don't have to worry about what's gonna happen. If it happens. It happens. We're all gonna die someday.

Todd Keisling [01:03:07]:
So, you know, why not just enjoy your time and be active in the moment as opposed to concerned about, you know, oh, you know, I've got a, I gotta do this so that I can have a better afterlife. Fuck off. Just live your life and be a good person.

Michael David Wilson [01:03:29]:
Well, thank you very much for listening. Listening to Todd Keisling on this is horror next episode. We will be reconvening with Todd for the second and final part of the conversation. But if you would like to get that and every other episode ahead of the crowd, then become our patron@patreon.com. thisishorror. Not only do you get early bird access to each and every episode, you can submit questions to the interviewee. We've got a lot of people coming on the show in the next few months, including Joshua Milliken. We're going to be talking to Josh Maleman again.

Michael David Wilson [01:04:12]:
We're going to be talking to Jason Pargin in September. We've got conversations planned with the likes of David Moody, and we are looking to arrange conversations with so many first time guests on this as horror people like Catherine McCarthy and Ross Jeffrey. So plenty to look forward to, plenty to get involved in. And the best way to support us is to become our patron@patreon.com. thisishorror so go to the website, check it out and if it looks like a good fit for you, then I will see you there. Okay, before I wrap up, a quick.

RC Hausen [01:05:01]:
Advert break Cosmovorus, the debut cosmic horror novel by RC Hausen, is now available as an audio experience. Featuring an original dark synthwave score, this story will take you to the next level of terror. Come hear the story that readers are calling Barker meets Lovecraft, a phantasm style cosmic horror adventure and a full bore, unflinching, nihilistic nightmare. Cosmivoris the audiobook by RC housing come listen if you dare.

Michael David Wilson [01:05:37]:
It was as if the video had.

Michael David Wilson [01:05:39]:
Unzipped my skin, slunk inside my tapered flesh, and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella [01:05:46]:
From the creator of Dishar comes a new nightmare for the digital age, the girl in the video by Michael David Wilson. After a teacher receives a weirdly arousing video, his life descends into paranoia and obsession. More videos follow, each containing information no stranger could possibly know. But who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and everyone he loves. The girl in the video as the ring meets fatal attraction for iPhone generation, available now in paperback, ebook and audio.

Michael David Wilson [01:06:15]:
Well, that about does it for another episode of this is horror. As I said, the best way to support us is Patreon, but a way you can support us free of charge is to leave a review on Apple Podcast. Let us know how we're doing, let us know what you like about the show, what some of your favorite episodes have been. Let us know who you want to hear us talk to in the future. So I check out every review and your feedback is incredibly valuable. Now, another way you can support me personally is to buy my books. I've got a number available. That's the girl in the video House of Bad Memories and written by my cohost and written with my co host Bob Pastorella is there watching, and if you would like a free audiobook of any of those, then get in contact.

Michael David Wilson [01:07:16]:
Email me michaelisishorror dot co dot UK and I'll sort you out with a free audiobook. The girl in the video and they're watching are narrated fantastically by RJ Bailey, and House of Bad Memories is narrated by the one and only Aubrey Parsons. Equally fantastic. Well, that's it. Until next time with Todd Keisling. So until then, take care of yourselves, be good to one another, read horror, keep on writing, and have a great, great day.