TIH 576: You Like It Darker by Stephen King (with Neil McRobert, Talking Scared) 

Michael David Wilson 0:30
Welcome to This Is Horror Podcast. I am Michael David Wilson and today we have a special episode in which we are going to be discussing some of the stories from Stephen King's latest collection. You like it darker. Now it was published a few months ago back in May 2024 by Scribner and to join myself and Bob Pastorella. We have fellow podcaster and literary horror scholar, Neil Mark robber of talking scared podcast. How are you doing today, Neil?

Neil McRobert 1:14
I'm alright, I see it's very late here, but I'm a night person. So yeah, always well, how are you? Thanks for having me, etc, etc.

Michael David Wilson 1:23
Yeah, I'm doing good. I'm excited to talk about some of these stories. I mean, I'd like to talk about all of them in depth, but people who have listened to the story on botched episodes that myself and Bob do it would probably be a 24 hour kind of Marathon if we were to do them justice. And we haven't got time to record that it's very late for you. It's very early for me. But I think what we're going to do is we're going to do something pretty special for people, we've came up with our top stories in the collection. And it was quite interesting when we shared them with one another how much overlap there was. Yeah,

Neil McRobert 2:11
I've had a strange journey with this book. Because well, we'll get into all this, but I, I like it a great deal. And the stories that I love are still the stories that I love, but, and the stories that I think are my least favorite, are largely still my least favorite, but the middle bit has really shifted around. In my opinion. I've talked about it and reread some of the short stories. I've got kind of different opinions. But I've got a very firm, top three.

Michael David Wilson 2:42
Yeah. Do you know how many times you have reread the collection? Or perhaps there are certain stories that you've reread more than others? Well,

Neil McRobert 2:53
I read it once because I got a copy of this back in, like, I don't know, I got like an early, early advanced copy from hoarder. And I think I read it in in April, maybe early April. So it's actually been quite a while since I read it properly. So it feels like it's only just come out. But it's it's quite a few months ago. And I have no memory for this sort of thing. So I've reread it some of the shorter stories, again, more recently. And I've reread my favorite story in the collection that I will give away at the appropriate juncture. But yeah, I've read I've read all the way through once and in parts a second time.

Michael David Wilson 3:31
Yeah. And it's interesting that you mentioned the shorter stories because, I mean, this almost feels like a collection of two types of stories. It's you've got his very short stories, things like red screen and the turbulence expert. And of course, the fifth step, but then you've also got these novellas like to talented bastards and the Answer Man dreamers rattlesnakes, Danny Kaufman's bad dream and all of these, really, they could be standalones effect King get chosen to do that. And, you know, not just in terms of length, but also in terms of quality and what they're bringing to the table. So this is a remarkable collection.

Neil McRobert 4:29
Yeah, I'm not particularly sure why he's published it the way he has actually because I think we think you could fully imagine two talented bastards. Danny Kaufman's bad dream, rattlesnakes, and the answer man being a you know, the thing that only King really does that that four novella collection thing that he's rolled out over the years, because I think if he did those four together, it would be a collection worthy to sit alongside different seasons, which for me is one of the absolute high points of his entire career. And I think those four stories collected would put him away, perhaps Perhaps they would be close to four past midnight, not quite different seasons, but you know, only one room down. Oh,

Michael David Wilson 5:16
no, only four past midnight. You know, like, they're, they're both remarkable. I don't think it's much of an insult to be like, it wouldn't be this world class book, but it might be the sub class work. And, you know, like, I, I wanted to talk about kind of general impressions and how we kind of feel about this, I do feel and perhaps particularly because it opens with two talented bastards that this could only have been written at this stage in Stephen King's life, if it feels like, you know, the horror stories written by somebody who is well into their career. And I mean, that in terms of thematic ly, what he's exploring, and yeah, I, I found that like that, it feels like there's some autobiography, particularly in two talented bastards, which we will get to in due course. But, I mean, how was it for the both of you? Know,

Bob Pastorella 6:31
I kind of echo what, what Neil was saying about that, you know, it's strange that we have these short stories in these novellas, I don't think I really don't think he's, he's done that before. And that I can think of, I mean, he's had some, definitely some, some novelettes, probably with his collections. And, you know, confession time, I have not read for past midnight, I know, don't throw rocks at me, but so sorry. There's, there's too many books, he puts out more since he's retired. But, uh, the, I think that some of the caliber of the stories definitely match different seasons. In terms of in terms of the way he's, he's presenting the story, and in terms of theme and things like that, I hold different seasons in extremely high regard. That is probably some of the absolute best writing that Stephen King has ever done. So I am, you know, in awe of, of different seasons, I've gone to it many, many times, as as inspiration for my own work. And so, I'm seeing these, you know, these nice novellas in this in this collection, it felt like, to me almost like a breath of fresh air, it's like, Hey, you get some short stories, get some some, you know, low longer stories, you get something that's got some some real meat on the bones too, you know, and I felt that was that was, that's actually pretty cool. I don't know if that was a marketing decision. If that was a Stephen King decision. Um, you know, that's, um, but I found it, I found it very refreshing to have a lot of variety there.

Neil McRobert 8:13
So somebody pointed something out to me. One of my listeners can't remember who else would credit them. And they said that the that can't be the exact details of this. But the last time King brought out short story collections, they've always been followed by huge works. So I can't remember the exact schedule of this. But it's something like everything's eventual was followed by the Almighty run towards the end of The Dark Tower, just after sunset, was followed by maybe 1122 63. And bizarre above Dreams was followed by sleeping beauties. So I wonder, rather than that, this being a sort of editorial decision, whether he's just whether he's working on something massive, and he's just gone, I need some breathing room. So let's get whatever stories I've written in the last however many years, whatever I've written, put them together, because I need some breathing room. I wonder if this is just, yeah, just to sort of what what in a lesser right is what would be the sweepings of the office floor brought with him is a set of amazing stories, you know, but nonetheless, a kind of way of buying some space to work on whatever he's working on.

Michael David Wilson 9:38
And certainly a possibility. And I mean, I think as well, if we look at these stories, a lot of them have been written post COVID That is obvious from the content and the references and if you look at the word count of some of these novellas, I mean, it really goes to show Just how prolific you'd have Steve King is I mean, for him to have these is written possibly for some breathing room. We're speculating here, of course. But my goodness, I mean, this would have been a productive few years, you know, to have this output for any of goodness, if he's working on something the size of the stand or approaching that, then that. That is very exciting, because because it has been a while since we've had a worker of that size come out from Steve.

Neil McRobert 10:42
Yeah. Fingers crossed, that I know no more than idle speculation, but I always hope. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 10:49
though, because now you've had Stephen on the show a couple of times. I wonder, Do you ever worry that you might say something, and it's literally it's just your idea, just your thoughts. And it came from nowhere. And then a magazine or a newspaper will be like, Oh, renowned, Steve King expert, best best British friend, Steve King says this is coming.

Neil McRobert 11:18
I think I'm spared that level of fame and notoriety. To be honest, no one knows why I'm outside of a few 1000 People in the horror community. But when I when he came on the first time and sort of idle he mentioned that he had an amusing for the talisman book that got picked up by a lot of people said that did the rounds. So I sometimes feel maybe I've crowbar them into the corner where he has to say, right, the talisman book and if that's my offer into the world, and I'll stand by,

Michael David Wilson 11:49
yeah. Great offering. And before we jump into the stories, I just want to give a quick mention to how great the cover is. And, you know, first, it looks like it's just this island with some palm trees. But then you do when you look at it properly. It's like oh, oh, that's an alligator. And then of course when. And in fact, there's some lightning bolts in the sky as well as so there's both very subtle references to tell, you know, things that happen in stories in this book that you will only get once you've read them.

Neil McRobert 12:35
It took me a good few weeks of looking at that cover online to realize that was an alligator. I just didn't pick up on that. So but I've got I've got the UK cover, which also, I think looks quite banal until you've read rattlesnakes, and then suddenly it becomes a whole downside more chilling, you know? I think I possibly prefer the American cover. Although I don't know, I quite like the brightness of this. I quite like this guy that Florida centric thing because it makes a nice change for King. For listeners who can't see this. Basically, there are two deckchairs on a beach, empty deckchairs and the sun is projecting the shadow onto them as if people are sitting in those ditches. And I think that is a reference to certain things in rattlesnakes. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 13:26
I think so too.

Bob Pastorella 13:28
You know, when I got the book I got I got about the ebook. And I was showing my co workers at work. And they said, Oh, what is it that the news Stephen King book? I said, Yeah, it's a short story collection. And my initial thoughts were since I've seen the cover, I was like, go and look at this crap cover that they put on there. You know, I was like, What is this got to do with Danny thing? That's an alligator Holy shit. And you know, and I was I was like, Oh, wow, okay, this is, this is a lot darker than I expected it to be. Okay, so now I see it. And I was like, that's actually pretty crafty. But it took me several times looking at it like you need to do realize that that was an alligator. And it feels like these are more of his Florida locale stories. Yeah. You know, because I think he's, he's like, I guess Steve is living in Florida and Maine, you know, during different parts of the year. And I feel this after reading the whole you know, collection I was like these are kind of like his Florida stories, you know, to some extent and I thought that's that's pretty cool. It's getting getting away from the main the East Coast and getting into Florida. You know, the immunity that the heat the alligators, the mosquitoes. I mean, it's just, there's a lot going on there. Beyond what you know, Florida is typically known for a Uh, especially lately, if you're looking at, you know, political climate, but, you know, actual, you know, living climate. I've been to Florida several times. And it's it's pretty nice there. You know, that's, I just think it's really cool.

Michael David Wilson 15:16
All right, well, let's shift towards the first story that we're going to talk about. And this is my top story of the collection. It's also Neil's top story of the collection. And I know that it's one that narrowly missed out on Bob's top freezer, this is a highly regarded story. Neal, why don't you kick us off reveal what is that story and tell us a little bit about it.

Neil McRobert 15:46
So it's the last story in the collection? And it's called the answer man. And I would say edges out everything else. But it doesn't. It beats everything else by leaps and bounds. There are other stories in this collection that I think rank along some of King's best work in the last decade. But I think the answer man ranks along some of King's best work ever. And it's, well how to describe this. I was on another podcast about this story. And, and I suddenly realized that if I was to synopsize it, then I've got to tell the entire thing because it's essentially the story of a life. So I won't do that. I'll talk a bit more thematically. But it begins in the sort of the sharp end of the Great Depression. Which, why I love when King does period I love when King does sort of early 20th century period, 1922, stuff like that, I think he's got a knack for you that he doesn't use enough. So it's 1937. We've got this character called Phil Parker, that everyman name, I don't think is particularly accidental as as an everyman. He's sort of white collar, family, law firm, etc. He wants to go his own way is a bit of a romantic and he does, and he moves to rural Maine, to the chagrin of his parents and his in laws, and he marries and he starts a practice and he's a rural Maine lawyer, kind of charmed life. And then one day, he's driving home. And he sees a sign at the side of the road that simply says, you know, the answer, man answer any questions for a certain amount of money. And he pulls over and thinks this guy's like a fraud, or a huckster or whatever. But it turns out this guy is something else entirely. And we never know quite what the answer man is. But for a sum of money, he will answer as many questions as you can ask, in five minutes, but the questions have to be strict yes or no answers. And then it basically turns into a sort of benign Faustian pact, where it doesn't so much give his soul, but he gives away some degree of autonomy, because the question that arises is, to what extent are we free? If we know the answers to the big questions, or put another way? What comes first? The answer or the question, you know, if the answer then says you, if Phil says, If I do this, will this happen? And the answer man says no, or Yes. Is he right? Or is his answer guiding your action so that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy? And it's, you know, that question is never really answered. And from there on, he meets you, and someone again, at various points in his life, and it's a story of filled life that's marked by love, and loss and success and tragedy. And there is no horror, aside from the everyday horror of mortality and grief. And it's just a beautiful, beautiful story about a man a kind of ordinary man living an ordinary life with this very singular, extra ordinary figure lurking somewhere in his in the margins. I just think it's so beautiful and so sad.

Michael David Wilson 19:09
Yeah, I just wanted to return to the detail you said where you said that he can only ask the answer, man, yes. on questions that have a yes or no answer. So it, it was a little different. He was told, yeah. You can't ask. Should I do this? So he can give more than just yes or no? So I mean, one of the times in which Phil is trying to realize okay, is this guy a homesteader? He asked, you know, what, what's the maiden name of my mother, for example, and he only asked that, because the answer man suggests that as a question, so.

Neil McRobert 19:53
Oh, you're right. Yeah, you're right. But it can't be a sort of advisory. It can't. Yeah, well look at it. Answer. Yeah, it's got to be a sort of firm, factual, binary answer, I suppose. Yeah, you're quite right.

Michael David Wilson 20:07
Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to point that out. So we don't have listeners pointing it out for us, but I mean, it's such an interesting story too, because I mean, there's so many remarkable, like comments on people in general, and wherever, you know, we actually want the answers that we supposedly seek, and then the potential benefits and indeed the damage and, you know, of receiving those answers. And one of the things that the answer man says, when talking about smart people or less, it says, I've often wondered if smart people realize what an answers they seek in life. And you hear that there's so much to philosophically ponder in this one as well. I mean, this was not only a remarkable story, but it's one that kind of gets you thinking about, what on earth would you do in this situation? Would you believe in the answer, man that this has to be real? would? Would you then alter your life based on the answers? And, you know, it's interesting, too, that this is, you know, a story that takes place over the span of Phil Parker's lifetime, as you said. And this is also the story in the collection that took King the longest to write. So he started this in 1977. But he only completed a few pages of it. And I believe it was when his nephew, then found it amongst old papers and old stories, and he presented it to Steve King and asked him if he would complete it. And here it is, but I, I feel that perhaps, it needed almost like decades of experience and of life experience to be able to do this one justice. So, you know, we sometimes abandoned stories and think that's it, or why did I abandon this one, but actually, it needed that time to be able to write it fully. Well,

Neil McRobert 22:37
one of the things about this collection as a whole is the reckoning with grief. And I actually think that King has always had an absurdly mature reckoning with grief. You know, I used to say about The Great Gatsby, this is sounds like a really weird segue, but bear with it. Are you saying that The Great Gatsby, that novel is only a classic, if you read it when you're old enough to understand regret? I think there are certain things that you only really understand when you mature into them. And I think for the vast majority of people true grief and loss is one of them. I know there are a lot of children who experience awful loss. But I think it takes a sort of adult loss to really be able to understand the nature of grief. I think kids feel it, but to understand it, I think you have to maybe I'm wrong, what the hell do I know. But the point I'm trying to make is that I think King has always had a very profound creative grasp of grief. You know, way back in Night Shift he wrote the woman in the room about essentially his mother dying. And he writes so well about grief. And now we've got this kind of invoke thing of grief horror, you know, people like clay McCloud Chapman do it amazingly. But grief, horror has become almost a sub genre of its own was I think grief is, is horror, I don't think it requires a fencing off or a sub genre. I think grief is horror. And horror is grief. But King, this is the first time that I really think he's made it. The the heartbeat of a collection, because you've got to talented bastards has a degree of grief to it. And rattlesnakes has grief to it. Like I can't think of the phrase is bought like grief within a marriage, you know. And there's grief in this. And I wonder when it sounds morbid, I wonder rather than reckoning with his own mortality, if King is starting to reflect upon his wife's mortality because it's such an emergent theme in so many of these Stories the loss of your partner.

Michael David Wilson 25:02
Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, it occurs again and again, we've in this collection and, you know, most multiple times, even just in this story, the answer, man, there are times where he is confronted with grief. I mean, even early on, there's the impending Nate here of war. And in fact, I mean, when he comes to the answer, man, to begin with, I mean, he's got numerous concerns and worries on his mind concerns that he wasn't able to tackle through drinking a crate of beer. One night, he couldn't even, you know, solve them after just drinking ginger ale or sober the night after. And so when he comes to the answer, man, I mean, he, he has like, almost like the kind of, it's not quite grief, but the worry that if he makes the wrong decision at this point, that he might lose his relationship with his fiancee with his future wife, because, you know, he wants to start this new role role law firm, which you mentioned before, but unlike the there's this new up and coming area, he thinks that there's a real opportunity for money to be made, but his family and his father in law in particular, they want him to join this family law firm. And if he makes the wrong decision, if he goes against their wishes, there is that worry that he's going to be ostracized from his fiancee side of the family, and thus, the relationship might collapse. So even early on, we've got that, I think as well as something that's interesting that you mentioned was, of course, he has to pay to get these answers, you know, the answer, man will answer as much as possible in five minutes. And there is there is this fee, but the fee changes? And actually, the answer man says, early on with regards to the fee, you know, I charge what the traffic will bear. So he likes to think about, you know, how much do you need this answer? And also, what is it going to cost you to hear it? So I thought that was a very interesting element as well. Particularly, I mean, we've got this supernatural entity, the answer, man, I think that's pretty, pretty clear. I mean, he even says, like, other people can't see him. He's kind of in like, these fragments, this link between time so the money is not really for the answer, man, he has no need for flee material wealth, but actually, it's for Phil, and it's for whoever goes to visit him, because you know, this is going to cost you greatly some of this information. And I mean, when we can assume the answer, man, he has no concept of time, time always is the Future Past Present is always that so he knows what you're going to ask. And he knows what must be charged accordingly. And I think the second time that he visits the answer, man, I mean, we're told early on he visits three times. Is it's pretty shattering what he finds out. Yeah,

Neil McRobert 28:54
yeah. Yeah. As for the money that I think what you're saying is right, it's it's not that the money is not for him. It's it's about Phil bought, the alternative ways that maybe even in the outer darkness, and the places between worlds inflation is still a bitch.

Bob Pastorella 29:14
Yeah, I would say the price has been adjusted for inflation. It flows across the veil. I think it's interesting too, because, like the first like series of questions that that are asked, are questions that primarily to not like make it too general, but they're questions about the future. And so they're questions about success, things that young people concern themselves with, you know, as we go along, the questions become more personal. About, you know, like the second time they're more personal they're about you You know, the people that feel cared for. And then your final round is is more of a, you know, basically I'm at the end, you know, I felt like I've, you know, he's, I guess wanting confirmation of a life well lived. And that was, that was my impression of it you know, this is like, um, this was not I don't think this one was in my top three. But I liked it, I still did. Because I've always liked these kind of philosophical stories that he does. And they, they make you they make you think, beyond the words on the page. And that's, that's the lasting power of good writing. You know,

Neil McRobert 30:52
I just love when King gets in this groove and high struggle for articulation. But it's something about the longevity of the story. It's something about the kind of Norman Rockwell ism of it, you know, it's such Americana. It's, it's gentle, but it has teeth, it's just the teeth attached to a monster, they're just attached to life itself. You know, it's a story that in this is the most differences and story in the book. And it it has the tonality of something like the body. And even though it's taking place at the other end of a lifetime pays essentially, even though it's about Phil all the way through, it's really about Phil's old age and in walking back as much as looking forward so you got it's the other end of that spectrum the body but it feels like that same sunlit CPA sepia toned, warmth, huge King that I love. Contrast, the fact that we're all supposed to be horror fans, I love when he does this stuff. More than any monster he ever write is the parts in it that I love are never the parts with Pennywise they're always the parts where the kids live in their lives and the barons, you know this I love King doing the it's not magical realism, but it's like it's American realism with an otherworldly tinge. I just love it so much. Makes me feel warm and home.

Bob Pastorella 32:29
Yeah, it does. And I think I think it's a good contrast to expressing in his actual true, you know, horror stories and horror novels. Because you kind of need, you kind of need that, that feeling. And, I mean, a good writer is going to realize if I can make you feel this way, this more than when when I hurt my characters, you're going to feel that too. And it's a good, you know, juxtaposition on that. It's something, it's something to be mindful for in your own writing that you have to, you know, you've got to, you know, contrast the dark with light, are, you're not going to have any, you're just going to be pitch black, which I mean, there's stories that are like that. Sure. And they're pretty, pretty good. But, you know, I like to contrast a lot better.

Neil McRobert 33:19
And it is interestingly placed in the collection as well at the end, because it could easily be seen as a coder, you know, is that this kind of thing that you just linked to the finish line with, but I, if you ever think about, you know, it's not an it's not a novelty, this this is this idea. But you know, short story collections are like albums, and the story placement matters. And one of the stories we're going to talk about, I think, from you, Michael, my problem with it is the placement in the collection more than anything else. But you've got this these last three big, chunky stories. You've got rattlesnakes and the dreamers which are two of his most, you know, head on confrontations with true horror that he's written in a minute. And then the answer man comes in, kind of like the hidden track the end of the album, you know, with like the pared back guitar. And, you know, Atlantis Morissette at no Jagged Little Pill singing that lament about you know, watching her lover in the shower. Sorry, I'm getting a bit nice and geeky now. But it feels like that, like this, this gem right at the end when you least expect and it like wound your heart because your guard is down. You've you've just read the dreamers and you think, Oh, I know what Ken can do with monsters under the bed. And then Jesus, what he can do with just an old man missing his wife. Fuck, you know? Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 34:45
And when you talk about the placement in the collection, I mean, I can't see another way they could have ended this one. I mean, this is the perfect and Doing it is the best ending in terms of life story structure and completeness to any other stories in this book, in my opinion, it is just so perfectly formed. And I mean, we will have said at the start of the show that we will have somewhat spoilers in this, we'll try not to go so specific that it renders you reading the story useless. But, you know, the final questions are ones that are concerned with with not just death, but the Beyond and the afterlife. And

Neil McRobert 35:41
the answer to all of them is yes. And I still don't know what it means. But that doesn't frustrate me. You only mean, yes, it feels like we're not supposed to have answers to those questions. Right. That's the human condition. We're not supposed to know the answer to those questions that he asked at the end. And it's, it's almost like Phil can't know. And we as the readers can't know. Yeah, it's it's beautiful. There's a poetry to it that I don't. I couldn't, I couldn't express it on the page and how that it works like the logic of all the answers at the end being Yes, because it's it's illogical because they're antithetical questions. But the answers are always yes. And that just makes sense on a kind of cosmic level.

Michael David Wilson 36:27
I think the answers being Yes, at the perfect answers, as you say there's a there's a poetry, there's a beauty, there's a completeness to it. And I mean, I don't think we're meant to be looking to put it all together and be like, this is the definitive reading of those answers. But the way that I can kind of come to terms with the seemingly paradoxical, yes, is is you know, if you can conceive of it, if you can believe it, then you can manifest it into beings. So if this is what you conceive of, if this is what you want, then yes, yes. And also, it's like the afterlife. It's everything and more, is what you can't conceive to it. It's, it's just a perfect ending. It

Neil McRobert 37:26
is. Yeah. And it's, it's a special brain that can think it up. Because if I, if you sat me down and asked me to write this question, I guarantee I would never come up with that ending. There's something that's the magic. That's the magic.

Michael David Wilson 37:42
I mean, often when we discuss stories, I like to kind of be a little bit indulgent, and ask people you know, what they would do in these situations? So I mean, firstly, from the beginning, if you see a sign that even says that you can go and see the answer, man, are you pulling over? Are you curious enough to see what's going on? There

Neil McRobert 38:10
was a weird one, right? Because I actually actually thought about this because I am an very very anti spiritualist person. I don't mean anti spiritualist. And if you people if you've got spiritualism crack on. I can't stand mediums, right. I think they are hucksters, and frauds. And parasites. Sorry, 20 Medium listeners, but I do. And I, they make me angry in the audacity of what they do. But at the same time, I absolutely love anything weird by the side of the road. And I will stop for anything weird at the side of the road. And so I don't know, I don't know. It's a rock and a hard place that one. This I'm not a driver, my wife drives. If I said to my wife, can we pull over and talk the answer, man, she'd be like, Absolutely not. We're in a rush. Be quiet. So that will take care of it.

Michael David Wilson 39:12
Yeah, yeah. So you have to take the the leap to imagine that you're driving and

Neil McRobert 39:19
you don't know which, quite frankly, is a far bigger fiction than a man to answer any question. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 39:26
Yeah. How about you, Bob? Are you fallen over? Absolutely

Bob Pastorella 39:31
not. No way. Yeah. I've seen I've seen enough of that growing up. There was down this area that was basically like a low kind of residential commercial area where they had some you know, a lot of houses but they also had like little corner stores and things like that. Going up. We had this this lady who was I mean, it's probably a French Guys, it's like Madame Dora, you know, medium spiritualist had a big billboard in front of her house. And we kept passing it up. And I just, I never even asked my my family about it. I never asked him when you know, because I remember seeing this when I was a kid. But I remember when we were driving through one day, and my mom said, I wonder if she's really busy. You my dad was driving, and he just shook his head. He didn't say a word. He was just like, No, no. And I don't know, I think I think I get a lot of that skepticism from him. Because he is much as he kind of, you know, helped me and guided me through my early horror, you know, entertainment. And he was pretty much you know, a skeptic like me. And, you know, I think I'm a little bit more of the, you know, I tend to lean to, I want to believe that you got to really kind of prove it to me, something like that on the side of the road, I would just keep on going, man, and just, you know, I feel like that that would be a waste of time and my money. The concept of do I want to know, man, I can't really, I can't articulate an answer on that. There's some things in my life that that I would want to know. But there's also things in my life that I would like to be surprised about.

Neil McRobert 41:29
I don't think anything good comes of knowing anything.

Bob Pastorella 41:34
I'm kind of like you there. But there's some things that I would want to know, probably not about me, but maybe about other people. You know, people I care about?

Unknown Speaker 41:46
And

Neil McRobert 41:49
I don't know, it's just any tricky, anything, you know, anything, you know, anything at all, I think, on the void apart from that, what are the lottery ticket numbers, but I don't want to tell you that. I think anything, you know, unavoidably irretrievably, will steal the joy from the future and impose the terror of the future. I don't think there's any other outcome than that. Because, you know, will I make a million dollars run a boat one day? We've already know was the joy. You know, am I going to die? Am I going to die in pain? Like, yes. Great. I look forward to that, then, you know, in however many years, I just don't think anything good comes. It's supposed to be chaos. It's supposed this might this is getting very first off, it was a nightmare. But it's I just think life is supposed to be. It's supposed to be meaningless. I think, apart from the friends we made along the way, I don't think it's some kind of teleological linear narrative that we're supposed to see in that way. So I don't want to know, anything deep down in my go. I don't want to know, you

Michael David Wilson 43:04
know, both for you have anticipated what the next question would be, which was, you know, supposing you did stop? What? If anything, would you ask the answer, man? I mean, I suppose it would be funny if you stopped and then didn't ask anything. Do you just look at him? You shake your head? Not today and some men? But yeah, I mean, I've been pondering on this, because I think there were a lot of things that at a glance, we feel like, we would like to know that. But then the deeper we consider it, the more we realize there could be disaster in having that knowledge. I mean, so that there's a lot of truth to the cliche that ignorance is bliss. And I think if we're asking anything about death, or about family, that is a surefire way to absolutely destroy your life now, because then you're going to be just kind of consumed by that knowledge.

Neil McRobert 44:15
And if you don't know, you're going to be a dick, right? Because someone says, like, you know, you're not going to die by doing this. And you're going to be a dick. Right? Because the degree of caution is useful in life. So yeah,

Michael David Wilson 44:27
yeah. Yeah, I can see that argument. And I mean, I think too, yeah, I was like, well, what could I ask that could be potentially useful? And you know, I said to you before our fan, like the things that I'm focusing on professionally, at the moment, my writing the podcast and studying Japanese, so I suppose I could ask questions that are essentially along the lines of like, am I going to be successful, but I'd have to ask something more concrete than that. Because so SAS is, you know, it's up for debate. So we could ask the question that you kind of came up with, it's like, will there be a book? Let's just start with Will there be a book where I'll get a five figure or more advanced? Let's start lower than a million dollars. And, but but then like, you know, the answer to that could change what I do. So if I'm, if I'm going down, and it's late, right, you're only gonna ever get like, a four figure and a low four figure D order. And I, I might think, you know, should I change course, should I stop doing that? But then it's like, well, am I you know, it's never been just

Neil McRobert 45:53
by stealing joy? Because with the pursuit, like, is that when you want, right, you watch a, you know, a sports, like, sports casters, you watch a sports game, you watch a football game? Like, if you know the score, why would you bother watching it? You know, like that old cliche? What's going on in a sitcom where someone's desperate to not find out the score? And they find it in the final moment. Like, that's life, isn't it? Like not knowing the score, not knowing whether you win or lose? Like, that's the point. To always hope you win, and always prepare for if you don't, and if you know, you're gonna get the book deal, you won it, and that steals the joy of the win. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 46:35
yeah, absolutely. And I think as well, you know, if I fixate on any question I ask, could miss out on another potential benefit? Because the question I didn't ask like, will this book bring me joy? In the writing of it? Now? Maybe the answer is no. But maybe I didn't ask, Will this book impact and change the course of someone else's life? And if the answer to that is yes. So yeah, it's

Neil McRobert 47:05
also bigger than that. I get that point in time. And we're getting very deep in the weeds on this sorry. But it be even beyond balancing that benefit against that benefit or asking the right question. The benefit is not knowing because the benefit is a surprise, because surprise, is the thing that makes life worth living. Do you have what happened? What might happen today? You know, so not having the answer is the reward, I think, yeah, a lie a lot. Because we said, right at the start, you said Bobby's, but this, the questions at the end are about a life well lived, he would have lived a better life had he not known?

Bob Pastorella 47:42
Yes. You know, it's also interesting to because this, this whole conversation that we're having right now is tempered by the fact that we read the story. And so we have we are armed with for, you know, forementioned information to, to kind of Slant our questions in a certain way, if we had never read the story, and we saw the answer, man, and let's say I decided to pull over. And he kind of gave me his little spiel, and I gave him my money, and he started this clock, then I would probably ask some of the same, you know, general questions that anyone else would ask and that kind of situation, being that we've already read the story, we're, you know, we're armed now with information, we can go in and ask questions, like, questions that I would have concerning my family aren't if somebody's going to be healthy and things like that, it's more online to Hey, well, so and so and so and so ever reconcile, you know, things like that things that I have seen in my life, that between people in my family that have hurt one another, and seen that pain has also hurt me. And if they feel like if they would reconcile, that will give me a little bit of joy in my life, not that it's something that's so painful that it's keeping me from moving on. But those are those are the type of things that I would want to know. When it comes to the finality of life, we're all gonna fucking die. You know, I don't want to know when I'm going to die. To me, that would that would just put a race on me not being fulfilled and everything I want to do. If they say you got six months to live, and now I would think motion I'm not can't do everything I want to do in six months. You know? I can only I can pick three. Right? You know, and so the first thing to do would be quit my job. But you know, don't need work. No more. Sorry, guys. See you later. You know, but I know. That's something I don't want to know.

Michael David Wilson 49:45
And then it leads on to kind of one of the questions that the frost had his story which is has the answer man seen, or has he made the future because So I mean, in all these examples, we can see how they become a self fulfilling prophecy. So even Bob saying about the two members of his family or friends, do they reconcile? Well, if the answer is no, then you're probably never going to push them towards that, because you know, it's futile. But actually, if you didn't know that, then there might be more opportunities for them to reconcile. Similarly, if you're told, you've only got six months to live, you quit your job. And now you've not got your health care. And if you'd had the health care, it could have helped prolong your life. So we got to be careful with this. And, you know, how has the answer man seen or made the future? We're not given a definitive answer to that? That is an answer. It's not provided. He's asked him that. That's why I should ask, because you can ask that question. And then it doesn't impact your future here at least. But just to know, just to have that knowledge,

Neil McRobert 51:07
here's my final word on the answer, man, why would ask a question that which we know, you know, I was gonna say a question that couldn't hurt me or steal my joy was honestly I would ask, is there a big four? Because the question I want the answer to is Bigfoot real? But then again, do I want to know really? Because was the mystery? You know, I want the mystery. So even that question, I can't ask, say from, say, from the theft of joy. If,

Michael David Wilson 51:33
if you ask that. I imagine, you know, if it's no, then the joy is gone. You're probably never going to read up on anything to do with Bigfoot again. Not say it's over. But if the answer is yes, we ain't got talking scared. No more. It's talking big for you, you become the man that discovers Bigfoot, because you are the only person who definitively knows that Bigfoot exists and how you're gonna prove it.

Neil McRobert 52:07
Me and Joe Lansdale disappear into the woods to try and find Bigfoot. Yeah, what a podcast that that that means sign that up for a Netflix documentary right now. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 52:17
Yo, I Lansdale is a very smart choice. That is a very worldly man, that is a man who invented his own martial arts. He's a survivor, so yeah,

Neil McRobert 52:28
told me he told me he knows people who know things about Bigfoot. So I've always been intrigued. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 52:36
I think Joe knows a lot of things and a lot of people that would

Neil McRobert 52:43
know to kill candidate to be honest.

Michael David Wilson 52:47
And what a note and the sentence of man discussion on if people predicted or trying to predict where will this conversation go? I don't think they imagined that was the note to sum up the answer, man, but it is and so where we go in now is Bob's number one. Story pic. And actually mine and Neil is number two. So what have we got Bob?

Bob Pastorella 53:17
Dini car Flynn's back bad dream. And I particularly like the story. I love it when writers break, quote, unquote rules. Straub did it in the throat, that don't open with the flashback. And in the first 100 pages of the book, about 85 of them are a flashback. So Steve opens up with a dream. And that's one of the little unspoken, you know, quote unquote, you don't open with a dream. But is it really a dream? Steve gets his eyes from what ifs? Like, what if this happened? What if this happened? I think this is really special because this one f is something I haven't really seen before. What if I had one singular psychic experience? How would that affect me? And so that's pretty much what the story is about. To kind of give you the gist of it. Danny conference janitor is working you know, during the summer, keeping the school clean, getting it ready to go, you know, for school, and he has a terrible, terrible dream that you know he's propelled to travel down this road to behind a derelict gas station and see something horrific. He sees a no may geo dog chewing on a hand sticking up from the ground. Someone's been buried in the dirt and this dog This is knowing it, you know, knowing it this woman's hand, knowing that her fingers. And I think it's interesting too, because I'm pretty sure Danny, though he probably doesn't actually realize it. But dreams are fleeting when you wake up, you know, you, you might have a bad dream. And within a few minutes, you can't remember exactly all the details of the dream. So even though Danny woke up, and he felt that he had a bad dream, I think he's slowly starting to realize that this wasn't a bad dream that this is something that is linger and you can't get it out of his head. There's no parts of the dream that are decaying or morphing or changing or anything like that. He doesn't use the word vision, which I think is really really good. But that's apparently what Danny's hat Danny's had a singular psychic experience vision that is is very not prophetic. But something from the recent past. He starts doing some some, you know, Google searches like hey, you know, there's a sign maybe maybe it was that place even real you know, and so he discovers that yes, there's a real sign he finds pictures of the actual location and decides to go there he is compelled he is I can imagine if I had you know, a visual in my head like this. I would Richard Dreyfus myself all the way across the land to Devil's Tower and see what the hell was going on. And that's pretty much what Danny does is that he is compelled he must go and see if this is actually something that happened and to his horror it is and so Danny does what he feels is the right thing to do. But he doesn't want any notoriety he's he's he's wants his his whole urgency in this is the fact that there's a woman someone is missing her. She's not you know, among the living anymore, and people need to know and so he's doesn't want any type of credit for it or anything like that. He wants to remain anonymous, but it's it's the right thing to do. He probably goes about it in a bad way. Because the Kansas Bureau of Investigations finds out who he is narrows it down almost psychically but it just you know for the for the gist of the story they they you know they use you know CCSD TV and all that and closed captioned TV and all that and and get get video footage of him you know buying a burner phone

Unknown Speaker 58:08
and then

Bob Pastorella 58:10
we get into the second part of the story where these two Kansas City basically they're like the state FBI. These two cops one who's been on the force for five years and she's good She's smart. She's as we find out a little bit more compassionate. And then the you know, the Star Detective Miss Mr. I guess the detective Jalbert, which is like a really, really severe not to Jeff are from a Les Miserables. So, you know, it's like, as soon as I seen his name, I was like, oh, that sounds familiar. This guy's going to be tenacious. And he also has a strange, OCD affliction, that becomes evident, more and more and more as you go along seven. But anyway, kind of give you an idea that this is a story of obsessions. And how we're compelled to see our obsessions to the end and sometimes to the bitter end. And the writing in this reminded me a lot of the outsider is just it had it had this, this, this this sense of urgency to it. Any lackadaisically kind of goes through the story. It's not like it's bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. There's a lot of stuff going on. There's a lot of internal thoughts, a lot of worried it's a lot of, of pain involved as we get into the story. But I like that he's taken his time and given us this really compelling set of characters to kind of tell this tale. He couldn't do this and 30 pages, you know, he couldn't do this in a 5000 word story, this story deserved the heft of a novella. And I didn't feel that it was very long at all. I breezed through it. I'm reading it again, I'm taking my time and going a lot more slower on it. Because there's so many details. But the first time I breezed through the story, I read it like in two nights boom, boom. And it's like, holy shit. This this is this is one of the best things that that he's done in a long time. Which isn't true. He's done a lot of great things since then. But this story, I don't want to say it's old schools, Stephen King, because it's really not. But it reminds me very much of that Mr. Mercedes, Holly, the outsider era that I've grown to love. It's a detective story where our detective is the least likely detective in the world. And it really it hit me in in all the right ways. So I don't anything else I'm just gushing on it now so

Neil McRobert 1:01:09
it reminds me of a Batman book. Yes, yes.

Bob Pastorella 1:01:13
And at first that those said Batman, I was like, okay, that's that's weird, but you meant Bachman. Yeah, yeah, but

Neil McRobert 1:01:19
man, yeah, it kinda sorts of story than Bogman button. But nonetheless, that reminds me a little bit of something like the outside of definitely is sort of, you know, with the impossible crime and stuff like that, although it's not an impossible crime. It's an impossible solution. But regardless is that's definitely in there. But it reminds me as well, you mentioned the urgency, but the kind of lackadaisical urgency, and that really reminds me of Dolan's Cadillac from nightmares and dreamscapes. Which is another story about obsession, you know. And this is something that there's something about King writing about crime. The I mean, I don't like the holy books at all, but I don't like this Mercedes both particularly. But when King gets on a crime group on Arca GMM Thompson type group. I like it. Yeah, I think there's a great story.

Bob Pastorella 1:02:10
Yeah, it's, um, I liked it. He gives us an everyman for this, you know, and someone who didn't want this bad dream. And he, you know, compares and contrasts obsession. It's like you have somebody who's compelled to seek the truth. And you have someone else who is compelled to be right all the time, which is Jobert piece, he's, to me his obsession. And it falls in line with his obsession with you know, his OCD with his number of flexion. And all that. His ritualistic behavior, this is the person who can't stand to be wrong about anything. It's apparent in his conversations with Davis, it's apparent with every single conversation, he tend, he is literally trying under the guise of, of law in order and helping out poor Miss Yvonne, that he's literally trying to find a way to frame Dini so he can be right. And that that's not even a spoiler, you can kind of consider that that's the idea. He goes to great lengths to do this all within legal boundaries. But he pushes them. And as we get deeper and deeper and deeper into his obsessions, and things like that, it becomes apparent that this isn't going to end and in a good way. Fortunately, you know, sometimes sometimes lightning does strike twice, that now that's all I'll say, I don't want to spoil anything. But, uh, you know it, sometimes when it does, and you have to be there to pay attention to it. So,

Michael David Wilson 1:04:04
yeah, and it's interesting, too, that Ella Davis, who is the good cop, as it were, she doesn't start off that way. In the opening scene. She's actually the bad cop. She's more convinced than Frank Gilbert, that Danny did it. And I mean, it really is a comedy of errors in many way. I mean, not a comedy for Danny, but just the way that he kind of phones the seeing all of the mistakes that he makes, but you know, I mean, as Danny kind of serves himself, I mean, he's made these mistakes because he didn't do it is not a criminal is. I mean, apart from the burner phone. He's not really thinking, I have to protect my tracks because there was no crime that he committed. And you know, Even when he manages to lawyer up I mean, I was laughing aloud and shaking my head because he has a real estate lawyer. I

Neil McRobert 1:05:09
do have the lawyer the lawyer is one of those great sort of well meaning Scottsboro characters that King right so well. He's one of the standout characters in this for me. Yeah, degree of levity

Bob Pastorella 1:05:21
shows up on his motorcycle with his boots on its shorts. I'm like, I love this man, I love him.

Neil McRobert 1:05:30
He kind of reminds me you know, we talked a lot about this. He's kind of like some Florida stories. And there's one story with a direct link to do McKay, the lawyer, I can't remember his name, it reminds me of the character of a wise man from Duma key that kind of laid back southern bait, you know, Hawaiian shirt wearing dude, I just, I just really, really love him.

Bob Pastorella 1:05:50
He was, you know, he reminds me of is a Travis McGee

Unknown Speaker 1:05:57
from the, the,

Bob Pastorella 1:05:59
the McDonald's stories, okay. And, you know, he, he, he had all the colors and the names. But Travis McGee lived on a boat on Florida, and he was a private eye. And he, you know, and he always had, he always had some, some girl that he was, you know, helping along, you know, but that's it, the attorney kind of reminded me of just a little bit of, because a track, you know, just real real laid back, but new shit, you know, and that's yeah, it was, uh, it might be those those books might be a little off your, your normal, they come out like in the 60s in the 70s. So but I know that Stephen King was definitely influenced by him.

Michael David Wilson 1:06:52
Yeah, and I appreciate it. The nod towards possibly one of the most beloved and crooked lawyers of recent times on television. So good to align, but, you know, Perry Mason or Saul Goodman, but I did appreciate that easter egg that King threw in there. And I mean, get King is not afraid to make, you know, contemporary references. He's done it throughout his career. And, you know, some people kind of caution against that for fear of dating the book, but it's like, well, now I'd like it being a product of its time, it adds an authenticity and credibility to it. So I mean, people are divided on that one. But I personally like to throw in references like that. I don't know where both for you stand.

Neil McRobert 1:07:50
I always get a bit taken aback when he throws modern references. And I think I've said this somebody else recently, I can't remember who it was on one of my short story chats that I did recently on the podcast. But I find it weird when King does modern references, because to me, King is always a writer who should be writing about the 70s and 80s. Because I want him to be writing the books that I read when I was a teenager, do you I mean, so when he writes about iPhones, and always like, that feels anachronistic to me. But of course, he was always doing contemporary references, just the contemporary reference in the books I read as a kid, when what felt like period details was now they don't, I

Bob Pastorella 1:08:31
feel that every story ever written is dated. It's dated as soon as you start to write it. Unless you're deliberately doing a story that has to deal with with time. Or you something that's out of time or something like that. I don't, I think that every story is dated. And so I don't have a problem using any type of you know, you know, brand references, things like that. To me, it's a lot easier than to sit there and try to think of a brand name for something that might be important to a character that also fits with them thematic ly. To me, that's just like, that's part of writing that I really, I don't really like it unless it comes to me immediately. It's like, oh, shoot, I should call it that. You know, but if it's something I've got to sit down and spend time with and break out a pen and paper and write down a bunch of names, I could be writing. So it's like, you know, sometimes a pack of Marlboro cigarettes is great. You know, that's, that's what they you know, date. That's what most people smoke if they're gonna smoke, you know, occasionally you get that out of, you know, that character who smokes, a pack of cools, you know, but just kind of using that for an example. I think that every story is dated, I don't think I don't think it really matters, unless I'm doing something like it follows where we can't tell what time period we're in. Which makes it all the more creepier then has to be on a visual auditory timescale. Whereas on the on the written page, that would be really hard to pull off, I think. But that's just that's me. Anytime

Michael David Wilson 1:10:16
we bring up it follows, I immediately want to rewatch it. That is a spectacular film that I didn't think that the first time I watched it, but the more times, I've rewatched it, you know, I've come to appreciate it. And the soundtrack is remarkable, too. But we should hold that thought, until we unbox it follows I'm gonna go off on another massive tangent there. But I mean, one thing that you said earlier was, of course, about Frank Gilbert's obsession. And I mean, this is why when, when evidence or things start to come in that may let Danny off the hook. This is when Ella Davis starts to soften. She's very rational in her approach, and just trying to not let other things cloud her judgment. Just look at the facts. Just look at what we're dealing with. And, of course, there's a moment early on where Danny seems to have some sort of relief that there's a potential DNA test that would let him off the hook and in a frank Elba, I think he was doing that as a bluff. But Ella's like, no, he looked visibly relieved. So that's the turning point. But you know, jail, but when evidence comes in, he doubles down, he starts, like coming up with these theories as to how he could have gotten away with it. And it has an encounter with one of the local cops. So one of the interviews happens at a local police station. And then the local coffee says, like, I didn't get stood to Danny, just like, yeah, I want you to know, we all know about Frank jail, but don't quit, you know, once he's decided something. And so, I mean, it goes from this comedy of errors, as I put it before, you know, and we didn't mention as well that like, I mean, another part of that is there was an incident where there were charges against Danny, you know, a while back with his ex wife, so it doesn't look good. That is already on record of some untoward behavior. But yeah, like jojoba, he just obsesses. And he, I mean, we're getting into even more spoiler territory now. But he will. If there are some things that don't quite fit, he'll try to create the evidence to fit his own narrative, and

Neil McRobert 1:13:07
that that's a chewing scene that with the the dodgy copper that is, I think, because King King writes really well about the sort of claustrophobia of corruption when you were just an everyman, and you're stuck in this corrupt machine, you know, and I think that's a great example of it, you really feel the fear for Danny, that's two parts when he loses his job. And that you think, Oh, God, this would be a truly nightmarish scenario.

Bob Pastorella 1:13:34
Yeah, and begins as a comedy of errors, but it slipped slowly turns into a paranoid, Kafka esque, you know, situation that any one of us could ever find ourselves in. I think that's, that's, that's a fear that that we all have is that we tried to do the right thing. And then the blame gets put on us. And that's, that's something that, I think that that's primal. We all feared that. And he taps into this so well, I felt bad for Danny, because we know, we know the truth. But also know the king. And for some reason, when I first read this story, I had this inkling that there was going to be it a part, or Danny was going to go, but you know, and you know, kind of like an internal dialogue. And it's like, well, then they're not going to find that out. But you know, I did kill her, you know, and so it'd be like, Oh, what the fuck, you know, but he didn't go that route. And so but I was initially thinking, Okay, this, this is where it's gonna go. But it didn't go that route. I'm glad he didn't. Because that would have been a little cliche. I can't think of a story like that, but and I'm sure he could have rocked it, but there was that step. Demo initial thought, and I was like, huh, but he turns it into something even more horrifying. And what starts off as something almost laughable turns into, you know, a very very paranoid, claustrophobic experience. And I, and I love that that's, that's that's to be able to experience them with, you know, having a safety net, it's a story. That's that's as close to thrilling as you can get it but it was in real life if Oh my god, there

Neil McRobert 1:15:34
are parts of the story what you do actually take a second and go, Oh, God, if this actually happened, what the hell would I do? Right? Because how would you ever convince anybody of this, you know, it's, you might convince your family but you know, you wouldn't come into me. And I, it's just, it's quite a breezy story like this. There's not much sense of like mortal peril for Danny for a lot of the story is this slowly boiling? Know the whole thing about you boil the frog incremental ism and stuff. And it's like this slowly simmering thing where it gets worse and worse. And all sudden, you go, Oh, God, this is pretty fucking dire situation, you know, but it's quite a leisurely way of getting there, which actually heightens it overall, because for so much of it, you like Danny think? Well, he's kind of like, well, I'm innocent. So I can't go to prison, because I haven't done it. And then slowly erodes the apparatus of State and the apparatus of one man's obsession means that your innocence is an irrelevance. If you can't prove your innocence, even though you shouldn't have to.

Bob Pastorella 1:16:45
Yeah. Oh, I agree. 100%. And I think that's why it took its time with this story. Because we really have to know Dini for it to work. And he gets, he gets us into character so quickly. And it's like, I feel like, I've gotten better at it. But I remember my first, my first attempts at writing when I was younger, as how it's been about a page describing what a character who this person was. And I remember still doing that. And like my first, you know, in person critique groups, and I had somebody who was actually published, you know, she looked at my work, and she said, You got really, really good character descriptions really, really good. But I don't need it at the beginning of your story. Yeah, there's you need to pepper this throughout, needed to truncate it, cut it down, get to good stuff, but give me some juicy bits as we go along. Let's get into the story. And that was some of the best constructive criticism I've ever had. Because I used to write like a whole page. It's like, Oh, Danny coffin was tall. And, you know, and he was a janitor, and he did all this. And then and then one day, Danny had a terrible dream. You know, it's like page three, you know. So that's, you know, kind of given that he gets him so, so quick. That's a masterclass and getting into characters very quickly, he does it exceptionally well.

Michael David Wilson 1:18:14
And so before we move on to the next story, I mean, my indulgent quest question has to do with a lot of these is what would you do if you had the dream? And let's say it is a vivid dream, as it's presented in the story is hyper realistic. That just seems even though you don't have beliefs in the supernatural, there's just something about this dream. That seems real, you can't get it out in your head. So I you go into the scene, or you bring in other people with you, I think if you do go to the scene, my my opinion is you you need to bring other people maybe you know, with today's technology, video document you leaving to go to the scene to begin with. And then if you do get there and you find this body, are you calling it in? Are you calling it in as yourself or you're doing it anonymously What the hell is going on in this? I'm

Neil McRobert 1:19:21
going nowhere near any of it. I'm just I'm just staying at home. Like it's a dream. I'm not I'm not getting involved.

Bob Pastorella 1:19:30
I think that honestly that if I had a dream like that, that I would probably in the morning to go talk to a therapist before I did anything. Because that would be so out of nature of anything I've ever experienced. I would begin to and obviously hey, if I think I'm crazy, therefore I cannot be Um, I would think that there, there could be something, something not right with my, with my mind. And now it's, I would scare me really, really bad, like, you know, a form of dementia or something like that an intrusive thought maybe I went there and I forgot, that would be the most horrifying thing to me, especially, you know, I'm 57. You know, it's I'm not, I'm not too young to have any type of cognitive issues. So if something like that happened to me at this point in time, I would probably want to at least have a, you know, a medical opinion of it. Because that's me personally, that's the, you know, I've seen what people go through how, you know, dealing with people who have had, you know, cognitive issues and things like that. And I would hate to be anyone's burden. You know, if that was if that was happening to me. And so I would, I would definitely, I wouldn't like go check myself into hospital. But I would definitely be like, Hey, I, this happened to me, it's, I don't feel like this is dream. I'm thinking I might have actually went to this place and forgot about this. And I need to know what's going on. That that's probably what I would do. I don't think I would venture out there on my own, and try to find this vivid image in my head. I'd be too scared of it.

Neil McRobert 1:21:37
I mean, just so you know, I once had a dream that I was in a plane crash the night before I had to get on a flight. And I got on the flight. So I'm quite capable, just putting my dreams in my pocket and moving on in my life. You know, I mean, so if I'm dreaming of somebody out behind a Texaco station, in a shallow grave, that's just the dream. I'm going nowhere near that Texaco station.

Bob Pastorella 1:22:04
Yeah. Again, I guess what I'm saying is that if I had a dream, a vision of this intensity, I can barely remember most of my dreams. I remember little details that I woke up and in my dream I was sleeping and I woke up and I had a piece of metal in the arm but it wasn't like bloody or anything like that. It's just a piece of metal that was in my arm. I had that dream. What does it mean? You know? I don't know. That's what woke me up is Ah, got this won't come out, you know, woke up you know? And then but there was other parts of the dream to do they're gone. You know? If something like what Danny had that is is like a movie that's playing in your head that it put in you see it fresh every single time? That's like an intrusive thought to me. That would that would drive me that would drive me insane. It would make me crazy. So I wouldn't doubt would be so unnatural from what I've experienced in my own life. That it would make me question the validity of my of my thoughts and things like that. I get that. Yeah, it's never so out of character. If it was debt, vivid debt intense, something like that. It'd be like, Man, this is this is this is something this is a memory. But I probably would not have gone the route because I could be known I'll be scared to death to put on fat.

Michael David Wilson 1:23:38
Yeah, I think we often have kind of anxiety dreams or dreams that are based on our worries and things coming up. So if I have a kind of airplane crash dream, a day before I'm getting on a flight, it's just me worrying about it, you know, when they'd be in an absence from me driving for quite some time. And I knew right I'm gonna start driving again. I started having these weird dreams where like, I'm in the car driving and then the car just takes control of it. Self and this has turned into a Stephen King book already a quite famous one. It's just like, mowing people down. It's not it's not like a Tesla. This is an evil car and I am in control. And yeah, I I still got in the car trusting that that would not happen. And so far, you know, months down the road, it hasn't so hopefully, safe at this point, and I'm not having those dreams anymore. I suppose. The only exception in terms of how it might, I don't know change my actions a bit and see if I have the airplane dream. But we actually have quite a long dream and we're in the airport beforehand and there are specific details like Your

Unknown Speaker 1:25:01
destination, right?

Michael David Wilson 1:25:03
Yeah, yeah. So if that happens now, yeah, as you said, it's like I'm literally just describing final destination. Yeah, now I'm not getting on the plane. But I, in normal terms, I don't have enough money to be able to throw away a plane ticket. So I'm getting on the plane. That's where I'm going. And on that note, we should move to the next story, I think, which is the third one in my top three. And it's the short story in the collection is the fifth step. Now, I think this is the best of his short stories within this book, we've said is split into short stories and novellas. And it very much reminded me of the night shift. Error of Stephen King story, I think it would have slotted in really well there. I think, you know, I'm looking I'm looking at the night shift. Stories now. There's, there's so many like, like, even quit a zinc, and I know what you need. And the man who loved flowers. Reminds

Neil McRobert 1:26:23
me quite specifically of the man who loves flowers. I think there's a similar twist.

Michael David Wilson 1:26:28
Yeah, yeah. And so this is one where we can't actually say that much about it without giving the whole game away. But it's called the fifth step. There's a protagonist, Harold Jameson. I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, his name is almost Jameson, Irish whiskey. And he's approached by, you know, someone called Jack, again, the most kind of benign, every man name you could have. And, you know, he's on the AAA program, the 12 step program. And step five is to admit to God and ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. And his sponsor has told him that unfortunately, you can't admit to him he has to find, you know, a complete stranger. And Jameson is the person that he talks to. And he starts, you know, just telling him about his life. I mean, the first mistake that Jameson makes is allowing this random guy to talk to him, it's like, move on. Get on with your life. And it does, innocently enough, but then slowly, the things that he's saying ratcheting up, I mean, the point where he is describing having these fantasies about hurting his own wife that that is the point or beyond the point where you should be like maybe this isn't what I signed up for. I'm off but yeah, it gets progressively and quickly it gets out of control because this is by far the shortest story in the book. So yeah, we've gone from discussing the longest to the shortest and you know, obviously the type of tail this is it's not it's not like you know, the most layered and philosophical where we've gone from discussing something that we can look at on numerous levels. Danny cough Flynn's bad dream to something that is a little bit more face value, but it's just fun. It's just nostalgic. Stephen King with a little bit of a twist a little bit of a trick and I whilst I love it, because I like those types of stories. I can see how it's going to divide people who they you know, they're not as into the trick King story, but I I think he likes them too, because there's a few of them in this collection, and it's just a fun read. So yeah, there's my opening comments.

Bob Pastorella 1:29:33
Yeah, I thought it was definitely a throwback to night shift. No doubt and it's like in all of his collections, and night shift, you know, being the the seminal one my favorite is skeleton crew.

Michael David Wilson 1:29:51
But

Bob Pastorella 1:29:53
the in those stories night shift or it's beyond the psychologists like they're timeless. They indeed got some of his best work and it's it's it's amazing to see that it's it's his earliest attempts at writing short stories. He says a lot of these were published in men's magazines like you know, Cavalier and gallery, you know, those those pulpy, you know, nudie magazines that, you know, had, you know, I guess, you know, pages wood wood fiction in them. And so, there's that kind of poppy field to this story. That's, that's very nostalgic to me. I do and I do like tricky stories like this. And I like a lot of them. But I feel that King, kind of when he does them, he doesn't like no one else in like, you can tell a king, like, you know, story that has a twist to it compared to other writers that that will do something similar, his his twist, have multiple meanings. And, and sometimes, like in this one, I think they were just kind of on the nose. And it's like the really enduring no other meaning to it. This is this is it? So I can't really talk about it. It's one of those words you can't fucking talk about.

Neil McRobert 1:31:21
Yes, because it because one thing that occurred to me, Bob, well, it didn't occur to me, it was actually said to me, I did. I talked about some of the stories with Stephen Graham Jones on the ken cast. And Stephen said to me, something that had not dawned on me, I want to phrase this in a way that doesn't spoil things. This guy is sitting on the bench talking about the fifth, the fifth step and like the, the AAA program, so he will lead to believe he's got an addiction. But you could read it as the thing that he does, at the end, is his version of fighting his alcoholism. Or you could read it as the thing he does at the end is what he's actually addicted to. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:32:04
and he kind of admit he, you know, having a propensity towards the thing he does at the end, I think just talking about the thing he does at the end is going to immediately anyone who's not read it, they're like, right, I'm reading this. You You managed to articulate that tremendously well without giving a spoiler away. But I, I think as well, like, what's shocking is how and Bob alluded to this how unflinching The conclusion is, and goodness, yeah, this is hard to because some of the words that I want to use to describe it will then give away the thing he does at the end. And I love that interpretation from Stephen Graham Jones as well, that it's like, well, what is he addicted to heroin? And now that's making me think as well, like, you know, is the alcoholism. A complete facade? Is the you know, how much of this is true? Who is the sponsor? Is the sponsor somehow not complicit. But what what's going on? I don't even know. It's a sponsor reel, is the sponsor, part of his imagination? So I opened saying this as a simple story that doesn't have as many layers, but in the course of two minutes, you've just opened up so many layers here. And just

Neil McRobert 1:33:48
Oh, yeah, I need to reread it. Because there were two stories in this Well, naturally, three stories in this collection that I had a really negative reaction to, and this is one of them. And I think it's the one that is unfair to have that reaction. So the other two by the way, I read screen and fin, and boy have I changed my opinion on fin, which I first was bewildered by. And now I'm like, I love its madcap glory. But the fifth step, the reason I reacted bad was this one I kind of bounced off it is because it comes after two talented bastards, which is such an immersive, warm. Again, it's like a homecoming Stephen King story. I remember reading it thinking like, Oh, this feels like reading King from the late 70s to mid 80s, when he was writing the books that, you know, kind of made his name, it felt really one of those stories and I thought, Oh, great, we're gonna get a whole 600 Page collection of that syrupy caramel tone story, and then straight off the back of that. From the 100 pages of that lovely story. We then get the nasty Are razorblade of the fifth step. And I think I wasn't prepared for it. So I didn't like it. But I think I need to go back and read it again. I do however think that it's something he's done before in other stories. I think he's done it more poetically in other stories. And I also kind of feel like, and I'm sure if he heard this, he would be like, Who the fuck are you, Neil? I feel like he doesn't need to write this kind of story anymore. I don't know who he's writing this kind of story for? I'm glad that you loved it yet. I mean, but when he sits down to write it, his answer would be his writing for himself. Right. But he's kind of already written it before. So I don't know what the purpose of this story is, other than just to kind of scratch whatever he had. Whereas other things in this book are genuinely new and genuinely kind of, wow, you know. So yeah, just just didn't love it as much as so many of the tales.

Michael David Wilson 1:36:11
So let's then talk about and kind of quick reactions and thoughts on the other stories that unfortunately, time is preventing us from going into too much depth fun.

Neil McRobert 1:36:29
Sorry, this is I've got my foot on a flight in five hours, it's my fault.

Michael David Wilson 1:36:33
I think that's entirely reasonable. And I didn't realize that the time you have to be you have to be on a flight and

Neil McRobert 1:36:41
oh, no, no, I've got to get up in five hours and go to the airport. It's all good. It's all.

Michael David Wilson 1:36:49
Good. A lot of sleep. But we appreciate this, and I'm sure our listeners and your listeners do, as well. But the next story is Willie, the widow, which actually is my least favorite stories is interesting in that, you know, back to back, we've had one that you didn't respond to as much and then one that I didn't respond to as much and I should say in terms of the placing, I mean, you said you'd have appreciated the fifth step more, perhaps had it been placed somewhere else. I can only assume that the decision that Steve or the publisher made was because two talented bastards is one of the longer pieces and then I believe Danny Kaufman's bad dream is the longest piece in the entire collection that they just wanted to have a couple of shorter stories and also, like I felt that almost this whole collection was celebrating the range and the tones that Steve can provide in his writing. So in a way cooling you like it darker is a little bit deceptive because we do get it a lot darker but then we get these kind of nuances and it's really a reflection of his outstanding career thus far. Yeah, we've really the way though, I I didn't enjoy it so much to begin with. But I've I have reread it and I felt that in the rereading I appreciated it a little bit more but it just was lacking a little bit for me, but I mean it as I believe you enjoyed it. More. Why don't we start with some of you afterwards?

Neil McRobert 1:38:46
I just like it because I like when King writes about friendships between young boys and old men. Because so often he manages to do it without making it creepy. But now and again, as in this and say, apt pupil, he goes full creepy, and I just really liked that dynamic because I kinda like grandpa James in this story as well, because I had I've had many sort of sinister old relatives in my life. And when you're a little boy, they're all wonderful. Grandpa James, it turns out, not that wonderful, but I just I just like the dynamic of it. I like the nasty little twist at the end as well because it's probably nasty. I like when kid does awful things to kids because he's like, he's like he's really going for it. You know?

Michael David Wilson 1:39:34
Yeah. That's an interesting GM and it's like, you're fine with violence towards children, but don't harm an animal specifically a dog, I believe. Is your is your take based on previous conversations and yeah, I comments. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, this is about an outcast, Willie, the weirdo, the clue is in the name, but he has a strong relationship and almost idolization of his grandfather. And there's, there's a twist at the end of this one as well. But I guess it's a little bit more layered in the way it's provided. Bob, what did you think to this one?

Unknown Speaker 1:40:31
You know, it.

Bob Pastorella 1:40:33
It was to me felt that it was King riffing on Ramsey Campbell. And in other words, like not not trying to write like a Ramsey Campbell story, but writing about some of the things that early Ramsey Campbell wrote about, especially like in influence and things like that, where you and I'm not trying to spoil the story or anything like that, but But it's King is kings version of this Campbell concept of possession, reincarnation, something like that. But it's King's version of it, that it doesn't it doesn't hit the same as is Campbell's because because of the twist, which is, you know, it's a good story. It's not, it's not my favorite. You know, it's not it's not one that I really don't. I don't know, it's just I hate to say it, but I mean, it just really didn't, it really didn't appeal to me. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:41:39
And that and the next story is Finn, which, again, is kind of in my bottom half of stories is about an Irish guy who is kidnapped in a suppose that case of mistaken identity. And, I mean, a lot of the story does revolve around, yeah, his kidnapping and being taken hostage and question then. I don't know, I felt that that I wanted a little bit more from this one. And again, it's very short. So there's not too much that can be said. We're really jumping. I

Neil McRobert 1:42:28
like this a lot. I didn't like it at all. At first, I was bewildered by I was like, What is this story I don't want. And then when I read it again, I like it because of that, because it feels like one of a few small selection of stories. And it's working. He's actually trying something new. And a lot of these stories retread old ground. This one with some exception is there's reminiscences in the death room from everything's eventual. But on the whole, it feels like an entirely new endeavor. And some of it clashes against the the AMA be what I like, quite how strange is because king doesn't do this kind of strange very often. Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 1:43:13
I would agree that it's, I don't know, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely different from what he's done before. And I like it when a writer says, hey, I want to try something that I've never done before. I haven't seen him do anything like this before. But at the end of the day, again, it was not it, it kind of pales in comparison to some of the other stories. And if it was, if there are other stories weren't in there, if this is just a collection of short stories, and not any of the novellas, then it would have felt very lopsided. And which, which I mean it like it would, there would have been just a couple of really, really good stories, but then there were some stories that were kind of Midland that didn't appeal to me. I mean, other people might mean really like him knew you liked the story. And so but I do I do like that he went on a limb. And he he tried something different. And that was that's always, you know, good to see. Good, just refreshing where

Neil McRobert 1:44:17
you are, right? I mean, we're going to go through these and they all pale in comparison to the longest stories, I think, and no detriment to them to the stories themselves, because the longer stories are so good, that it's hard for these shorter, funnier, more sort of, you know, twisty little stories to keep up I think. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:44:38
although, interestingly, on sliding Road, which is a short story, but a longer short story does in fact, round out your top three, Neil. So

Neil McRobert 1:44:54
yeah, it's this or the dreamers and I think this edge is it just cuz I love the old one. on it because he reminds me of my dad. My dad's a nicer person than this old man. Especially story about a family of bickering family of different multi generational family, kids, parents and this irascible old grandfather, who run into trouble on isolated rural Maine, rolling is on the way to dairy. And then what I like is that the grandfather's the very characters about the grandfather that culture asks us to condemn so often, in this one instance, are very useful and necessary. And I like that in the short DOS, I wouldn't want a whole book about that character, because it'd be played by Clint Eastwood. And it'd be awful because we've seen that you know, geriatric action movie stuff, I don't need it. It's smacks of Boomer Republicanism to me. But in a short dose like this, I think it's just delightful. And funny, and it makes you want to kind of cheer for this old dude.

Bob Pastorella 1:45:58
So often, we see these heroes and stories, and they're always these young, you know, the classic example. And so what makes this story special is like what Neil saying is that, that the, we have an older, an elderly person who is got some grit, and can take care of business and knows what needs to be done. And just in his basically had enough, and again, repeating what Neil said, we've seen, we've seen entire films of this shit, and it in it, after you've seen one, you've seen the other so and it's short in but in short bursts like this, it's it's excellent. We need to have more people who, you know, as far as age is concerned, we there's some older people in this world that are, you know, 7080 90 years old, that are still as strong as we are, who have taken care of themselves in they, they beat the odds. And shoot, I'd love to see, you know, someone with, you know, the right mindset, and they could probably carry your whole story like that.

Neil McRobert 1:47:04
My old man, he's ATA, and if he was in this situation, he would beat the fuck out of those two people. You know, and I, it's not a thing to celebrate. But now and again, it's just, you know, in a short story, it's quite fun.

Bob Pastorella 1:47:20
Yeah, my dad, when it came to things like that he was, I know, he could take care of it. And I know he's no longer with us now. Because disease, you know, disease will get you every time. But he, I never, in the one time that I've seen him actually confront someone, he never lifted a finger. He bet his voice barely was above a whisper. But the person he was talking to who was larger than him, their skin went white. And it to this day, do not know what he said. But it was very short, and very succinct. And he stood up to this man and said something, and the guy paled, and turned around and walked

Unknown Speaker 1:48:14
off. And this story is

Bob Pastorella 1:48:17
fucking power right there.

Neil McRobert 1:48:19
Yeah. And this story is a little chance to celebrate that, that thing that, quite rightly, we're not supposed to celebrate anymore. I get it. We're all you know, postmillennial. civilized human beings who understand the violence is not the answer. But in a short burst is nice to celebrate that old school masculinity, you know, and then move on to a different story. But just in that little cap, yeah, I like it. That's why I like the story. Satisfying, right. It says it was fine. The good guy wins. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:48:55
and this is a throwback in so many ways, not just in terms of the values and the character of the grandpa. But, you know, it reminds me of the older crime stories that King did, but then not less king, but some other greats like Raymond Carver. And, of course, Flannery O'Connor in a very specific story, which I won't mention for people who haven't read this one yet. And indeed, he did dedicate the story to Flannery O'Connor and at the end of this so yeah, yeah. I mean, that this just brings together so many delightful things. And yeah, I mean, with old school masculinity. I'm not saying it's a great thing, but it can be cathartic sometimes to read about it. It's not like for me to go around doing This kind of thing, but in a kind of safe context and like, you know, in in kind of appropriate hands such as king here and you know, sharks Fight Club where there's obviously like a much wider message then it can be enjoyable. That's something that just taps into that primitive side of the

Neil McRobert 1:50:26
brain and it Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:50:30
Well, the next one is the red screen, which I believe you said earlier was one of your lower ranked stories, then

Neil McRobert 1:50:44
it's my my late my lowest store. I just I have nothing really to say about this one. It feels I don't have any opinions about this story. I just left me on moved and largely disinterested, just just not, not for me. It felt like a fragment of a much larger thing. Maybe. But yeah, not for me.

Michael David Wilson 1:51:07
Yeah, this one was kind of in, in the middle of the short stories for me, and, but kind of for similar reasons. Just I came up with a different conclusion. Like, I did feel that I wanted to see this in a wider context, it felt like an appetizer. You know, it was giving me the start of an idea of a premise. But I wanted to see what does this look like if we expand it into a novelette?

Neil McRobert 1:51:44
Or all is the prequel to an epic novel of alien invasion, you know, but it feel it's not the prequel for the prologue, but it feels like that it feels like one chapter from something else.

Michael David Wilson 1:51:57
Yeah, and I mean, so the titular red screen is something that, you know, that there's this guy has seen, and then he's his belief that over time, his wife has become an alien. She's not the person who he believes to be. So he's, he's gone to the police station. And he's confessed to Frank Wilson, a homicide detective, about, you know, what, what's been what's happened here, and he's claiming, look, he didn't kill his wife, because the person who looked like his wife was not his wife anymore. And that's essentially, yeah, what, what this is about this is, again, quite a short one, and you need to begin with Frank Wilson is thinking, you know, he's so full of shit. And you know, what an absolutely crazy idea. But then, then he starts thinking about it a little bit more. And it's, it's hard to say without just completely telling the story, as to as to what happens from there. But yeah, I think the red screen is a great idea. But I want I want this, as I say, in an overlap, or a novella, or even possibly in a novel. But yeah, I I ranked it fairly high for the short stories, because I liked the idea. And so that was enough to pique my interest, but I suppose if we were to be analytical and asked how did it work as just a story, then it's a little bit lacking, but I did have a good time with what I experienced. How about you, Bob? I felt

Bob Pastorella 1:54:07
like Neil, it felt like a fragment. A Sketch almost. Almost like it was something that felt a neocon Have you actually kind of, you know, succinctly, succinctly put it in, it felt like a prologue to something to something bigger. That that would have been really cool. And then the idea was good, but as far as a story, it just felt incomplete. There was something about it that felt there. Just rather, if there's a twist, you know, the, the ending just felt kind of like, you know, there it is, you know, so yeah, I kind of rank it, you know, at the lower end. Which is, you know, when I say that I mean here's the thing, this story was published, and it's in a collection. And so when I, when I rank things at the lower end, it's still better than anything I'd write. You know. I mean, it's still it's still a Stephen King story. And I think my opinion would probably lead some people to maybe even, you know, read it and cherish it as one of their favorites. So, you know, I'm not when I'm when I say that, that I didn't, you know, like it, it doesn't mean it's bad. Just means it didn't like it. And just this one just felt incomplete. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:55:36
Yeah. And Eric has to me, even though we're now going through the rest of his stories chronologically, somehow, because I did the fifth step. And then we jumped in, we didn't actually cover two talented bastards, which is one of my honorable mentions, and is one of Bob's favorite stories, too. So, I mean, did you want to kick off briefly with some thoughts on that one, Bob, that

Bob Pastorella 1:56:04
just felt like old still warm, Stephen King. Um, just the whole presentation of it. I'm glad it was the first story in the bunch, it really kind of set the pace. When I, when I started reading that story, I got I got goosebumps pumps. gooseflesh I was just like, Man, this is this is this is why I picked up this collection is to read these kind of stories. It had a very, and I hate using what's it

Neil McRobert 1:56:39
not sad? Yes, I agree. I just agree. It's like a homecoming.

Bob Pastorella 1:56:43
It felt and I hate using this kind of terminology, but it felt very Spielberg. And, but in a good way, it it had it felt close encounters. You know what I mean? It's so hard. It's like when you when you watch a film like that, and you read a story like that, you know, that you're, you're you're you're getting into the getting into the good shit, you know, and it's like, this is this is why I read Steven key. And so to start off with that, you know, if you want to look at this, like, like you were talking about how it's an album, you know, this is this is Judas Priest painkiller, you start with a bang. Now, as I've gone along, their stories are like more that meant more to me. You know, and it's like, you know, Nightcrawler to me is actually a better song than painkiller is now, because I've grown to like the album, but I'm using a good a terrible analogy. I know. But it works for me. So but yeah, I love the story. I thought it was great. Not my not my absolute favorite. That would be Dini Coughlin. But golly, I mean, that's, it was great.

Michael David Wilson 1:57:56
Yeah. And as I said, at the start, it certainly seemed the most auto biographical. I mean, it centers around a famous writer who, you know, is told mostly through the eyes of his son, but the story is about the father who was a best selling author, and just some of the reflections and some of the details, it almost feels like King is kind of confessing to us, so telling us about his feelings as to you know, his own career. But the central premise, I mean, it is about these two talented vested so we've got the offer lad, and then we've got his childhood friend Butch. And when they were in their mid 40s, seemingly apropos of nothing, they both attained enormous success as a writer for lad and as an artist for books. And this story is about unraveling that mystery. And it kind of starts with an interview and then after lead, dare for not, not after his death before his death, lead tells his son you know, if you want to find the key to what really happened then you got to look in the locked bottom drawer of my desk and after labs funeral, that's exactly where he goes and the story opens up from there and yeah, there's definitely I can see the Spielberg reference you're making there, Bob. I didn't think of it at the time. But now you said it completely. Makes sense. And this one as well. Like, it is like, you know, drinking a warm mug of cocoa. It's like welcome home you feel instantly. He is then for you know long term fans of Stephen King. There's also a safe kind of EVA implicit or explicit references to other stories like we've got Mike Noonan and bag of bones, there's certainly something about the woods that brings to mind dream catcher. And I mean, what we haven't said it says a lot of that throughout, you know, this whole collection. I mean, rattlesnakes is effectively a sequel to could you, for example. And so yeah, this is a great story. It really was a toss up between whoever to have the fifth step or two talented bastards round out my top three, and I probably only went for the fifth step, because it was the best of the short stories for me, but it could have been either one of them. So, yeah, fantastic staff. And I am aware that, you know, the time that we're meant to have to get with her today has really elapsed, and we need, we need Neil to be able to get his flight safely, you know, we don't want his dream that he had manifesting. So, I mean, we haven't, you know, mentioned the turbulence expert, or Laurie or rattlesnakes or the dreamers. But if, if you have any strong comments either of you want to make, although it's I mean, funnily enough, the dreamers and rattlesnakes that number two and free for Bob, in terms of free,

Neil McRobert 2:01:38
I mean, I'll jump in there as a way to sum up because I suppose I don't have much to say about the turbulence experts. Particularly, Laurie has a lovely story about a dog. I love dogs very much. It's a diversion. It's delightful. And there's a whole thing at the end of that, where they added a different kind of animal that I didn't think was necessary, because I would have happily just read about that old man and that dog and rattlesnakes. I need to read again, because rattlesnake does not have the impact on me. There's having a lot of people. I think it's a fine store. I think it's great, but it hasn't like wowed me in the way it's Wow with so many people. And I think what I don't actually know why I can't give you a reason for why. All I can say is when I read bag of bones the first time and when I read Doom a key the first time two books about a not dissimilar kind of haunting. They both left me completely cold. When I read them again, I think they're smoking Stein his work. So I think I'll have a similar that revisionist take on rattlesnakes when I read it again. But there is one. I won't give anything away about the plot. But there is one moment in rattlesnakes where you see who's bought this, you see ghosts where the heads are significantly younger than the bodies and is such a creepy image, perhaps the creepiest image across this entire collection. And the dreamers is just brilliant. I mean, if you like revival, you'll love the Dreamers. And because it's that King doing cosmic weirdness, the implication that there are dark things beyond this human veil. And I love the fact that it's got this weird, it's set in the post Vietnam era. But it's got this kind of gentleman scientist who feels like he's been ripped from the 1890s. So like you were saying before, Michael, about or maybe you believe that it follows in the weird timelessness of that film. The Dreamers feels kind of similar. They tell us what time it is. But there's so many weird ingredients that feel like they're from different literary histories that it feels kind of unmoored in time in a way that I really enjoyed. The dream was was very close to being my pick the third.

Bob Pastorella 2:03:54
Yeah, I really liked the Dreamers. And you're right, it is a it does. It is set in a particular time. There's a timelessness about and I think that because I think that is because of our near writers cadence the way that he speaks. You know, the gentleman scientist, things like that. But this is this this story is, is basically any any type of story deals with any type of forbidden knowledge. I'm like, I'm all over it. That is That is my, you know, that that's the kind of stuff that that I really, really like and, and there's enough of that in this that really piqued my interest. I had no idea what it was going to be about. I didn't read any reviews before I read this book or anything like that, because I wanted to go into each story as fresh as I possibly could. And then when I started to realize what it was about was like, Oh man, this is going to be this is my jam right here. rattlesnakes is is a is an awesome story. I felt that the the Cujo felt a little shoehorned. I don't think I don't think we needed any of the Cujo references. I think that this story could have worked on its own. without, without having those references, we could still have the same character things like that. You know, different names. I think that the story would have worked without it. I think that that thrown into Cujo references, adds that little nostalgia flavor. That for me that didn't hit, I really didn't think that the story needed it. I thought it was powerful enough on its own. Which I mean, to me, that's that's like, that's, that's it's a compliment. It's not trying to compliment you want to hear. But you know, it's it was strong enough for me without all that.

Neil McRobert 2:05:59
I actually asked King about that, about whether Vic Trencin was always the protagonist. And he said no, because I got the inkling that he wasn't, you know, that he was writing a story. And then he was saying that he needed this widower and he thought countin by don't think it was ever embarked upon? What I know it wasn't the told me it wasn't embarked upon as a sequel to Cujo. It kind of got retrospectively converted into one when King cast around for a character that fit the bill.

Bob Pastorella 2:06:28
Right. Yeah, I

Neil McRobert 2:06:30
agree. I mean, there's some baggage there, right, what to do with, you know, it's about ghosts of little boys and Vic's off his own little boy. But it doesn't need to be Vic, it doesn't need to be that fan. Right?

Bob Pastorella 2:06:42
It didn't need to be there. And I know a lot of people love, love that. And that meant, and that's great. And I will say this, I will reread it again, sometime in the future to see how I feel about that. But I'm not saying that it did need that as a way to detriment the story. I think the story is powerful enough without it.

Neil McRobert 2:07:06
Yeah, I got you mean, I agree. That's the story. I'm most looking forward to rereading. So I think it's the one that's gonna leap from like a seven out of 10 up to like a 9.5 out of 10. Based upon the fact that other stories like this have gone way up in my estimations over time. I think I'm gonna move this when I read it next time, without the pressure of it being the big hype story in the collection, you know, because everyone was the rattlesnakes. And I think it wasn't what anyone expected. And it's serious. I mean, what, remarkably seriously nasty. When I said a bit ago about you know, I like when King does awful things to kids. I don't like it in this story is heartbreaking. What happens to these little boys, it's like, it's awful. In a way that like true horror in the way that gage Creed's death in pet cemetery is awful. You know, it goes back patenting you can joke about, and it just becomes like Soul scouring. That means horror podcast. This is alright, so we, you know, we're here to celebrate this guy ship. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 2:08:07
yeah. And I mean Dreamers. And then rattlesnake, stay with the two weeks of the novellas for me, but interesting. I think that is because of the absolute quality of like, all of the novellas as a whole. And, you know, I'd agree with you it. It's funny that, you know, we're both saying rattlesnakes at the moment, is probably the weakest for us. But it's a seven out of 10. And it's like what an endorsement you know, a seven out of that is a good a good score, but it's only because he you know, he's put out these absolute bangers to use modern parlance, threes, so you know, it, I'd put dreamers and rattlesnakes in the kind of seven out of 10 rather than the nine out of 10. is, that is not a bad thing at all. No, I do think in terms of Vic Trenton and the queued yo references so, of course I don't think we need them. It would be a good story without them. But I do think that actually having them just adds that extra layer of spice so I do think it becomes a slightly better story because of the Cujo references and yeah, particularly, I mean very difficult to get into without spoiler territory. But when something happens and he inherits, let's say something towards the end, I think you know, the way that he acts and receives that because of what had happened previously in his life that that that's the bit that really is the connective tissue that makes the story stronger for half During the Cujo, references didn't need it but did make it slightly better. pores.

Neil McRobert 2:10:05
I love King connections I live for that stuff. And, and I will say also it gives a shorthand to Vic's character. You know, we know why he is the way he is. We don't have to spend pages pages outlining that. So that's obviously useful. But you mentioned the word inherit. And I think it's been neglected so far by most reviewers on quite what an original goals are this like the, the metaphysics of these ghosts, how they are, why they are what they are, is something quite original, that not a lot of people have really remarked upon, and that word in our air, it is like, you know, both chilling and important in the story and the the burden of that. I think it's yeah, it's it's a it's a it's kings best story of hauntings since perhaps 1408. And I look forward to loving it more when I reread it.

Bob Pastorella 2:11:04
Yeah, it could have been called the inheritance. You know, but I mean, you know, then it sounds like you know, some John Coyne story from 1981.

Neil McRobert 2:11:17
How many? How many Damien's kids colds?

Bob Pastorella 2:11:22
Yeah, that would have been a good one. Hand me down. I

Neil McRobert 2:11:26
will say one thing as well. King told me that there is a story missing from this collection that will be in the paperback called the music room. And that you can read that you put it in the magazine, and it's free to read. I can't remember what magazine is on top of my head. But I think yeah, and I've read the story. And it is it's based. It's inspired by Norman Rockwell painting. No, didn't Norman Rockwell or Jack Vettriano? Who wrote the Nighthawks who painted the Nighthawks

Bob Pastorella 2:11:56
wasn't Rockwell was by that it's

Neil McRobert 2:11:59
based on a story. Sorry, I'm so tired. I can't think of words anymore. It's based upon a painting painted by the guy who pay the Nighthawks. And it's a really Edward Hopper. Edward Hopper. There you go. And it's a really, really, it's not based on our hearts is a different painting. But it's a chilling story that when you read it clearly was like then it was born. It's like the seed that Holly with the evil pensioners grew from and that's going to be I believe in the paperback so something else look forward to.

Bob Pastorella 2:12:34
Interesting. Definitely want to check that out. Yeah. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 2:12:38
I wonder why he held it back or if it was

Neil McRobert 2:12:42
just he just forgot. Imagine having so many stories, you can just forget one, you know.

Michael David Wilson 2:12:49
I mean, if anyone can do it, it's gonna be king or it's gonna be Stephen Graham Jones, who you met earlier or possibly? Josh Malerman. And I mean token of Josh Malerman. And you're saying that this is an original take on a haunting I certainly agree with you. And it just seems really serendipitous that recently, Bob and I and I guess a lot of readers too. We seem to be being gifted these original tapes on hauntings. I mean incidents around the house, I think has completely changed the game. This idea of inheriting a ghost in you know, King story here does it again. And I know that there were some very original ideas pertaining to hauntings within a Todd Kiesling story from cold black and infinite and it is escaping my name, which one that was now I don't know if Bob is going to recode because we spoke to talk recently, but we've not been.

Neil McRobert 2:13:56
And I've just read that story and I can't think which one? Yeah, you mean Yeah. I wrote a story about a weird ghost. I wrote I published it years ago. I'm not gonna name it because I don't want people to find it because it contains some things that I wouldn't right now. I'm quite ashamed of. No, no. That's gonna send me this truck that's gonna send the

Michael David Wilson 2:14:19
channel in your Grandpop? No no,

Neil McRobert 2:14:22
I basically I wrote I wrote this story about the goals in contain some quite awful fat shaming that I'm really not proud. I wouldn't write that now at all. But I was a kid and it's about a guy who wants to buy as a stately home and wants a ghost to populate it. So that would that was my offering to the animals original ghosts. He goes to buy one. But yes, I made that all about me, but you're quite right. There's a lot I like

Michael David Wilson 2:14:49
I like it, though. I want to see you kind of rewrite that or reimagine it to you know, just taking the concept of inheriting the home and then wanting to, to get the ghost to, to inhabit it. And, you know, even if it was a completely different story to the original just Yeah, I think that I did add something to it. So, you know, when, when you're done with your other fiction projects, then that could be on to consider visiting,

Neil McRobert 2:15:21
actual work it off and make it more palatable for the modern audience or create some of the some of the sentences are real. Yeah, anyway.

Michael David Wilson 2:15:30
Yeah. I mean, we we have all made past mistakes, we all have faster regrets and dwelling on all it does is take away from the present joy. And there was a lot of present joy and delight within this fantastic collection. You like it darker? I think everyone who hasn't read it, who hasn't bought it, you go out and do that immediately. It's a fantastic King collaboration.

Neil McRobert 2:16:07
So my greatest testaments to that collection is that I have now talked about it three times. The thing on my Patreon, I did two and a half hours, the king cast I've done two and a half hours with you, and I don't think I've repeated myself now that that's not that's not my skill. That's what's in the book. You know, that's the potential of the book to be commended, but you can still see new things about it after like seven hours of conversation.

Michael David Wilson 2:16:32
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure if we had another seven hour we seven hours, we could also not repeat ourselves, but God in seven hours, you meant to be at that airport. So that that is it for today. But yeah, I want to reread this collection numerous times. It's just a great book and high recommendation. Well, do you have any final thoughts? Do you have any thing that you would like to ask our listeners? Is there anything you'd like to promote before we let you get on your way and see you off to bed and then to Poland?

Neil McRobert 2:17:20
Anything I'd like to promote? No, I'm kind of slow period and then it so I'm, I've done fitting to this. You're gonna come listen to my podcast talking scared. I've done many, many hours on King recently, I had the man himself on the podcast. And then I did four hours split over two episodes, asking some of the biggest names in horror to come and talk about the favorite short story from all of his stories. It's people like Grady Hendrix, Brian Keene. It's not to nunnery, do talks about rattlesnakes. Mike Flanagan came on and actually gave us an update on the dark tower as well minor update. So that's a whole lot of film a lot of King centric film. And then going forward, I'm just more and more people basically have Adam Neville Gabino Iglesias is coming soon, Jonathan Jones. And a lot of people who are new to me, I will just tell everyone, while we're talking about short stories, forget promoting me. If you want to buy a short story collection to read this summer, check out a book called mystery lights by Lena Valencia, because it's wonderful. She's coming to my show soon to talk about it. And it is the perfect point where literary fiction and genre horror fiction meets and I've never been blown away by a debut collection quite like it. So forget promoting me. I'll promote Lena Valencia and mystery lights.

Bob Pastorella 2:18:50
Yeah, I featured that last week on lookout for. So I got that book on my radar missed. Yeah, really looking forward to reading it.

Michael David Wilson 2:19:02
It got on my radar because you put it out on lookout for it. I'm the founder of this. Alright, sometimes I don't know what's coming up. And Bob is the website manager. The podcast is kind of my domain. But yeah, now. Now that you've said that on top of it nearly it's like yeah, I want to read that collection. Yeah, one day we'll read that collection.

Neil McRobert 2:19:27
It's kind of like what if New Yorker style fiction had ghosts and UFOs and weird cave dwelling creatures? You know, that's kind of what it is. What

Michael David Wilson 2:19:38
did you make sense because if I'm thinking correctly, it's also published by tin house in house. Yeah, yeah. So there you go. Yeah, there you go. I mean, that that piqued my interest initially to its lightweight tin house. So putting out you know, kinda horror. Speculative fiction can Election. All right. All right.

Bob Pastorella 2:20:02
Let's call it horror. Horror is not a dirty word. Damn it would I?

Michael David Wilson 2:20:06
I, because I haven't read it yet. That's why I covered my bases are a speculative, like, I can't comment until I've read it to say, once, your honor it fits into, but I hear you. Yeah. Is there an interview from your archive that you would like to highlight Neal that you want more people to hear that you just feel they haven't listened to it? But it's a fantastic conversation. It's an offer or episode that you want to highlight? Oh,

Neil McRobert 2:20:41
wow. That's such a good question. That's such a good question. And I'm so on the backfoot. Now I'm quickly I always have a spreadsheet open all the time. And I'm quickly quickly scanning through it. What would I say was the episode that really defines how you go, right? Yeah, I would like everyone to go back if they could, and listen to episode 126. I've got tune in five or something now. But episode 126 is with an author called Stephen Markley, who wrote a book, and it's called the deluge. And it's in the top five greatest books I've ever read, ever. And it's not even a horror novel. But it's the most terrifying book I've ever read. Because it's basically about the next phase of fictional novel, epic, 1000 page, behemoth, about the next 40 years of climate change, and global strife, tyranny and autocracy. And it's so terrifying and so depressing. And yet somehow in the end, it leaves you with this vestige of hope. And it's one of my favorite interviews I've ever done. And Stephens, just a wonderful person to talk to. And listen to, by all means, but listen to it, because you want to read the book, because that book should have been, it should have won the Pulitzer. And it kind of got a blurb of Stephen King. I asked Stephen on my show to tell people that they should buy it. And he did. And it kind of was out for five minutes. And then there was no chat about it. And it should have won all the awards, go and give them a Nobel Prize. It's that good. So listen to episode 126. With Stephen Barclay.

Michael David Wilson 2:22:24
All right. We will, and maybe we got to get him on the show, you know, see if we can give him another boost and get this on people's radars. But yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This has been an absolute pleasure in what or an occasion what a delight to be able to talk about. You like it darker by Stephen King. So, Neil, thank you very much.

Neil McRobert 2:22:58
Well, thanks for having me. I'm sorry. I've kind of slid into exhaustion towards the end. I probably started talking nonsense, but it's been a pleasure. It's been a delight. Always good to speak to you too. Always good to see.

Michael David Wilson 2:23:08
All right. Thank you.