Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to This Is Horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson. And every episode alongside my co host, Bob Pastorella. We chat with masters of horror about writing, life lessons, creativity, and a lot more. Now, today, we are talking to Josh Malerman. This is kind of the second part of a conversation, but in other ways, it is a completely fresh one. You see, normally when we talk to Josh, we talk for about three hours. But the first time we had to cut it a little short, so we don't we do another conversation a month later. So previously, a few episodes back, we spoke about incidents around the house. We do talk about that a little bit more. I do urge you if you haven't to go out and pick up that book is fantastic. It's one of the scariest books that I've read this year. And we also talk about other things, including an on writing documentary that he made, in which he actually documented writing a novel from start to finish. As always, Josh is a fantastic guest. He is the guest that at this point has been on This Is Horror, more than anyone else. And with good reason. He always brings a lot to the table in terms of writing advice in terms of life lessons, and in terms of just general entertainment and good, passionate and optimistic vibes, which I think is something that all of us write as need, particularly when engaging in such a solitary pursuit. So we're gonna jump into that conversation very soon indeed. But before then, a quick advert break.

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Michael David Wilson 3:41
Okay with that said here it is is Josh Malerman on This Is Horror. Yash Welcome back to this Asara.

Josh Malerman 3:55
Hello. Hello, everyone. Hi, everyone. I don't

Michael David Wilson 4:00
it's been a few weeks and I much prefer it when it's only been a few weeks rather than you know, it's been a year or it's been six months. So

Josh Malerman 4:11
you guys, I was so subdued. I was subdued. And because of incidents Yeah. Because they No, they were just sitting by nature. And it was I mean, not that I've done that many interviews since then. But it was one of the first few times I had talked to the book and I seriously was like I don't know how to I don't know how they have to talk about this right now. And without like giving away since then. I've been like they're just go. Obviously I'm I'm still worried about spoilers, but just be yourself. Josh, don't you know, you don't have to be as dark as the book in person.

Michael David Wilson 4:45
Right. Yeah, yeah. And I think maybe as well, I mean, when we were talking it even just, yeah, I think it just came out maybe one day before. So I suppose at that point. Yeah, you haven't fully got that reaction to it yet. And you so so how are you now a few weeks down the road? Well,

Josh Malerman 5:09
okay, this is interesting is how to me. This is so interesting actually. So all my books so far up to incidence received and I don't mean this in a bragging way, this is just an interesting thing that I'm seeing here receive some sort of star review whether it was Publishers Weekly or Kirkus or library journal incidence the first time first book might have hasn't not only that, it's also the first book of mine that doesn't have a UK deal, which is a strange things mean that and I finally got to the bottom of it, the publisher with they, they thought it was too dark to her. And I was like, holy, holy shit, really, you know, and so not I'm not talked publicly about this in any way so far yet. And I really love that publisher, and I hope we do more together, but this Okay, wow. Now, the reason that's interesting to me is because incense around the house, this is the best release I've ever had in terms of like reviews and even numbers. And I don't typically like really check numbers, but the numbers are being sent to me by Dell, right? saying like, Hey, this is happening, this is happening. And so it's like, the book is doing really well. And it's doing well with reviews. And it's in it's in a strange way this book is like, the man isn't into it, but the people are. And there's something I'm like, oh shit, all right. You did. Like I wasn't expecting you to be my little revolutionary. But there is something different happening with incidents than with any other book I've had so far.

Michael David Wilson 6:48
Yeah, this is a completely fascinating and I didn't realize that this was the first book of yours to not have a UK deal. So this publisher that said that incidence was to horror. Did they put out Daphne?

Josh Malerman 7:06
Everything else? I think, man, good question actually got I gotta look, I gotta, I gotta look, I think the answer is everything else has been Yeah. Um, but except for like, doing the cape was limited, you know, but even it's been a black yarn, Pearl. Goblin. They all have you know, foreign territories, whatever. But instance around the house is. It's just interesting to me. I Never in all my life, I never imagined that I would write a book where I published a little this little dark for us. Because if you think about it, it's not dark in a like, you know, violent way. I mean, there's some there's like any horror novel, there's some dark shit, but But it's almost like the mood of it. Just the atmosphere of it is like, it's like, yeah, you know, the publisher was like, yeah, no, I don't wanna go near that one. And it's interesting because again, I mean, the reaction the review reaction and the reader reaction in the and the even the numbers I mean, it's like palpable in this office. It's like the best because think about it this way. It was Bird Box. It was book number one. I was completely unknown. Not that I'm so no now but I was completely unknown then. So it's not like Bird Box came out of the gates like swinging the movie was made like three and a half, four years after the book came out. Then Bird Box exploded, because the movie in terms of like, whatever people reading in stuff, so yeah, even Bird Box said, we're not even close to a start like this one. It's

Michael David Wilson 8:39
like, I really want to get the UK publisher on the call immediately right now. And I want to talk to them about this decision.

Josh Malerman 8:49
But at the same time, and I'm not saying this to be political or whatever. You know, the editor I normally work with is amazing. And I, from what I understand, he loves it, but there are new, new people in charge who thought it was too dark or something so I'm not ready. But it's just it is a point of interest to me. What I was like, because I started getting emails, like, when's this coming out in the UK? And I'm like, wait, we don't have a UK set up with every single books. So I called Kristen and and here we are. Yeah. And that is that is wild to me, man. You know,

Bob Pastorella 9:24
it's, it's, I find it fascinating too, because that I could see like a regime change at a publishing level, right? feel it's too dark. I mean, two dudes. See, you see if you're if you're, if your agent can can pitch it as a why a because there's darker y A's than that. Yeah, I

Josh Malerman 9:45
know. I know. And here's

Bob Pastorella 9:46
the thing if they pitch it as why a your main character it the age group fits. And maybe maybe they look at it in a different way because again, there's darker why a I mean,

Josh Malerman 10:02
especially if you talk in literal, like, literal terms, like, the violence or the action that happens or if there's any abuse of something, that kind of thing, right? This isn't dark in that way. This is. Yeah, this is dark and mood. This is. Yeah, there's some stuff in here too. But not, it's not like, you know, it's not like some it's not like brutal,

Bob Pastorella 10:24
right? It's not like Dean. It's not like Daniel Krauss has you know, been heavens, which was, you know, why a it's, you know, but will probably one of the most brutal books I've ever read in terms of content and, you know, story development.

Josh Malerman 10:39
I love that dude. By the way, man, that dude is so good. I'm just in the mood to tell you guys all sorts of shit today. You send us a script, me and Ryan Lewis. That in the end we had to pass on but I loved it. I loved it so much that Ryan wrote him that we were passing and I called Daniel, I was like, I just I didn't tell you man like, Man, this guy. He is such a good writer, man. He is so cool. And the idea and the dialogue and just I loved him. And he's he's really to me. He's one of the special ones of this. I know there's there's a number of us in this era that are doing good stuff by man he is he's a special man.

Michael David Wilson 11:23
Yes, definitely. She I think whatever happens with the UK do i mean there will absolutely be a UK deal. There will be there's no way that this book is not being picked out by a UK publisher. But I think that we have to take the Jonathan Jan's approach here and say it's good because I feel whatever happens is going to be better than if they had picked it up straight away. Not Bob has suggested a kind of ya pitching route, I would take the exact opposite approach. I would be begging this up as the book that was so scary that the original publisher could not present it. And I feel I feel because like I mean, the one thing I wanted to ask the publisher was like, right, so if Daphne is horror enough, but incidences to horror,

Josh Malerman 12:21
where they spent a blade, I mean, spinning like, Yeah, I think the story of the dude on his deathbed, right? Yeah. And I'm like, if that story was got by the, you know, got through the gates, man, this one is that, you know, but in another way, yeah, this book is mood and atmosphere, the darkest thing I've ever done anything? Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 12:47
And this is what all of the reviews have saying as well. So I think that's the angle, you know, you could get so many quotes to corroborate that to back it up. And then there are going to be a number of publishers that are like, Yeah, we want this, like I said before, I think this book is gonna grow and grow and grow. So actually, the longer it takes to get a deal, probably the more money you can get the better deal you can go. Yeah, I

Josh Malerman 13:15
mean, you know, I It's amazing that you brought up Jan's because, as you know, him and I talk a lot and I, we talked about this very thing. And I was like, maybe this is like a blessing, you know, because not even the money but because like, I don't know, maybe it's a blessing, because it'll end up like somewhere different or whatever. But I mean, there's even a movie side set up in a really good way already. And it's and that even has, like, some momentum where, and I know that Christian, you know, talk to them about that stuff. So I mean, it's pretty. It's kind of a head scratcher, man. I'm like, wow, what's not. So this is the one. Okay. All right. All right. I guess we got to figure that out. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 14:00
yeah. And so it's like you're in a universe as well, where it's like, you have to choose like, Okay, do you want this to get critical acclaim? Or do you want this to be a book for the people? And you know, it's a hypothetical that people are asked a lot, but it rarely actually happens in real life. And this is what you're getting right now.

Josh Malerman 14:24
experiencing something very different. I talked to Christian at length about this two days ago, and it was like, wow, this is an interesting, this is this book is not following the pattern that the books the previous books have followed for us. And in any way that in a really good way. And in another way and it meant some head scratching ways. It's but okay, well, cool. Maybe that means I wrote some different you know, I think that for me, at least, you know, like I think starting around, I have them all in a row somewhere. Starting I mean, you can even say hi Spring Lake, which is with you. Right after Bird Box right away, there was a sense of like it, especially with Carol and Goblin, there was a sense of like, okay, all these books are a little different than each other, right? And then go in the cave and Carpenter's Farm but I was worried writing incidents that it wasn't like this, like distinctive or something from the other ones in some like one where does this one fit in or something? But now, because of the exact scenarios we're talking about right now, and just me knowing the book better now, but I'm like, Yeah, well, whatever is going on. And this is different than the other ones. And that's kind of a nice feeling to

Michael David Wilson 15:37
Yeah, yeah, I imagine. It brings renewed excitement. Not that you ever lost your excitement, but at the same time, it must be a little bit scary because you're now in unknown territory. Yeah, it hasn't happened before.

Josh Malerman 15:53
Yeah, it has. It's a little freaky and a little exciting. And that's like what I'm talking about with Allison with Jonathan Jan's with my agent, Kristen. Yeah, they're almost makes me look at the book more like special like, oh, you little out law. Yeah, but things are going well, with instance, around the house. And that is for sure.

Michael David Wilson 16:15
Yeah. Did you get a chance to listen to the audiobook? I

Josh Malerman 16:20
listened to it. I didn't listen to the whole thing. But I listened to enough of it where I was like, Oh, my God, is she good? He, like there were some people. That was funny, man, I saw some people online were like, God, you know, this is the online world, right? Where they're like, um, I don't like that they took a adults voice and sped it up for the kid voice. And I'm like, that's not what happened. It's a 17 year old, you can do a good kid's voice. And also can do a good adult voices. So it almost sounds like there's multiple characters, but no, that is a single performance by a 17 year old. Yeah, I

Michael David Wilson 16:55
noticed the number of readers after we put out the first conversation saying we now have to listen to the audiobook. So I think, yeah, my reaction to it definitely piqued people's interest. But yeah, I'm glad that there are some people who also believed there were multiple actors. Yeah, yeah. So almost unreal.

Bob Pastorella 17:20
Yeah, I got you a copy of that audio book from one of my customers because I let her listen to it. And then she said the same thing. She said, how many narrators I said, that's one. And she had her phone out. And she just went purchase. And she goes, Okay, she goes, Well, I'll check it out. I said, Be forewarned. It will make you change behaviors in your home. She's like, What do you make sure are your closet doors are shut now that she was like, Oh, wow, what have I got myself into? I'm like, You got yourself into a creepy time.

Josh Malerman 17:55
Yeah, you're in for a creepy time. Have you guys seen long legs since last we spoke?

Michael David Wilson 18:00
I have. Well,

Josh Malerman 18:01
we don't have to talk about it too much. But but but for all of it's funny I am I'm one of those people that think that like all the criticism for it is totally right. And at the same time, it's great. It's a really strange thing I'm experiencing with that movie, and a few of and many of us are. But that one also has a certain incidence has this for me to a certain sort of like, when the movies over like you're still like I dreamt of long lines. Like I didn't dream about it. I had a dream that longlands was at the foot of my bed, like crouched a little and I was like, ah, and then I was like, oh, and then it's not like even does that in the movie. And it's like, there's some sort of like, subliminal unease to that movie. And I feel like incidents has that too. Or something.

Bob Pastorella 18:47
I went, I went during the day. And I was there were two other people in the theater. When the movie started. There was no one else in the theater when I left. But I went during the day because all the evening shows were completely sold out. So yay, on that that was granted

Josh Malerman 19:04
when I couldn't even believe it went out because I went and saw in a violent nature, which I really liked. And that's another talk, but I saw alone in the theater. When Alex and I went to long legs. We had to like find a time that had two seats together. Yeah, that's crazy. Man, this thing's doing good.

Bob Pastorella 19:22
And I'm not gonna I'm not gonna talk about the movie on top by my briefly real quick tell you about what happened after I seen the movie. I walked out to my car, and I sat in my car for 10 minutes. Basically just thinking what the fuck did I just experience? Yeah,

Josh Malerman 19:39
it's I guess I know. What the fuck did I

Bob Pastorella 19:43
just experience? The only way I can describe the film because there's a lot of film comps that kind of make sense, but it's pure. It's pure evil. It's just pure evil. Yeah, it's evil. When

Josh Malerman 19:56
people are like Silence of the Lambs and like yeah, now I thought now I'm only saying that because there's an FBI on the jacket like isn't science isn't even close to that vibe. In fact I'd even say the police procedural stuff almost feels like comically just kind of brushed over

Bob Pastorella 20:11
Yeah, I mean it's you know I mean to me the cops were zodiac and cure but yeah cure there's there's a similarity

Josh Malerman 20:22
there that no AI is that good? I haven't seen I should go see that. Oh

Bob Pastorella 20:25
my god yes, that's amazing.

Michael David Wilson 20:30
Michael I don't know what you're talking about Bob the horror

Bob Pastorella 20:34
movie cure the Japanese horror movie. Come out in the 90s No, I don't know that.

Michael David Wilson 20:41
Now unless I unless I know it via Japanese title. I don't know what you mean. Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 20:49
it came out in the 90s and basically it's a it's a serial killer movie where the serial killer is hypnotizing people to kill foreign

Josh Malerman 20:59
I have never oh that's interesting right because then it's like

Bob Pastorella 21:03
really not it's not a spoiler it's a it's a why it's a great name.

Josh Malerman 21:08
They posters amazing. Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 21:11
All right. From the same guy who did pulse.

Josh Malerman 21:14
Oh Paul scare that.

Michael David Wilson 21:16
I've seen posts. Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 21:17
Yeah. So it's funny. Kiyoshi Kurosawa,

Michael David Wilson 21:21
Pierre she cooter Sauer. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 21:24
I don't get stoned too often. And me and my friends, guys. It's funny. I say that all the time that I have a million stolen stories, but I don't get stoned that often. But me and my friends got high and watch that one. And I was like, fingers my hands over my eyes. Like I couldn't even watch it man. So yeah,

Bob Pastorella 21:37
he did. He did cure. I haven't seen say Auntie did Paul See also did creepy in 20,016. Which I don't know if you've ever seen creepy creepy was great. So um,

Josh Malerman 21:52
no, but I think that you and I need to be exchanging or at least you need to be exchanging more racks because I haven't even heard some of this stuff, man. And you're like, we've been talking for 11 minutes? Or why are we talking for 18 minutes? What's up? What's the app? I seriously, we haven't even set high yet.

Bob Pastorella 22:15
Okay, but yeah, I mean, you know, I would say Zodiac can cure. But even that's not even a good cop for it. It's just, it's pure evil, you need to see it. Don't try to go in as cold as possible. Go

Josh Malerman 22:29
as well. And just think of it in terms of like, you know, what we like hard to do to us and how we and I feel this way with incidents like, and I think Bird Box had a pen pal. I'm thinking of ending things. Bad man by death and Arbok like these, where it's almost like that unsettling. Like you're not paranormal activity to this meet where I believe when I experience a horror movie or book, I believe in the horror for the duration of the work of art. That is, in the same way that somebody has a sense of humor, I have a sense of horror. So I'm in I am scared. I am invested. I believe this. And the ones that typically are the ones that we end up talking about forever and ever are the ones that you still kind of believe when they're over. And long legs gave me some of that. Where I was like, Oh, that was a good movie now. Now I'm gonna sleep with the with the bathroom light on tonight and nightmare about this guy. And yeah, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 23:38
I had a movie hangover afterwards. I actually could not watch any any other movies. I had some plans to watch some movies and I was like, nothing compared to this. I watched I did watch Abigail last night, which I loved. I thought it was great. It's good. Fuck yeah, man. I laugh my ass. That's a great horror comedy. It's it's basically a bunch of criminals who have to face off from an 11 year old ballerina vampire and she's vicious and shit. These guys are hapless man. They they have no clue of what they're dealing with, you know, desperate criminals facing something that they can't shoot and kill. I love it. That's that's my that's my go to.

Josh Malerman 24:23
Yeah, that sounds good. Oh, that's a funny story to tell you guys that happened today. So I had a booksigning for incidents. And I showed up. And there were like, I was heading towards the booth I'm supposed to go to and it was a big festival. And there there was like police presence, like in front of the booth or whatever. And I just figured, I don't know, we're downtown. There's whatever I don't know. So I was like, Oh, hey guys, excuse me. And I started to walk between them. And they're just kind of stone face now moving these two guys and I was like, and then I like looked over their shoulder and our governor was there. Gretchen Whitmer was signing books. I was like, Oh, holy shit winters here and like signing right before I'm gonna sign like this is wild, you know. So then now picture me, I'm wearing the black suit shirt and sunglasses. And this is outside. I like the hat. And I'm like standing like seven, sort of seven feet from them sort of waiting for when she leaves. I'm gonna take that spot, but I'm just standing there. And so suddenly a woman comes out. And she was like, Hi, I'm with the Governor's team. I'm just curious, like, what are you? What are you doing? And I was like, Oh, shit, I look creepy as hell right now. I was like, I'm like standing like, like, I'm wearing a black suit, sunglasses standing still just like waiting. And I was like, Oh, shit, shit. Wow, I totally look creepy. I'm the next author. I'm signing next. And she was like, oh, and then she told me she was like, You're Josh. Veteran has most of your books. And I was like, what? Really? And Jamie and then she was like, yeah, do you want to meet her after? And I'm like, yes. So after her signing her and I met and talked for a second and took photos. It was awesome. Yeah, I got to meet the Michigan Governor today. It was sweet.

Bob Pastorella 26:09
Man has done is really cool. Yeah. She's a fan too. That's that's cool.

Josh Malerman 26:15
Yeah. While Yeah, it she was yeah, that was really totally unexpected. Man. I was just standing there like a total creep and not realizing it, you know? Anyway, a lot of little side story. Is this time so far?

Michael David Wilson 26:34
Yeah. Well, strange way to meet her. And I mean, particularly given the situation at the moment with people being on high alert. And it's like, this guy. Like,

Josh Malerman 26:45
again, sunglasses. I'm you know, I'm like, Oh, my God. I mean, the women were laughing I'm like, Oh, my God, I probably look so weird to you. I'm so sorry. Nevermind. But I am weird, but in a different way. I'm just waiting.

Michael David Wilson 27:00
Yeah. You know, something that we've watched in between our last conversation is your documentary. So what

Josh Malerman 27:12
was it? Yeah, so

Michael David Wilson 27:14
All right, we're gonna talk about this. I mean, this was so inspiring. This was just like creative fuel. And just in the same way that when you want to be energized, maybe you read a chapter for Aman writing or you dip into the f&m is wonderful. This has given you the same effect it it was so good. And oh,

Josh Malerman 27:40
thank you. Oh, my God. I am like you guys watched it. Wow.

Bob Pastorella 27:44
Yeah. I felt I feel the same way Michael does is that it's very, very cathartic. Very, very energizing. I felt inspired. And if that's your goal, then hey, yeah, you did it. You got a 4.0 GPA on that. But it you know, there's, I liked the way that it was set up with the music and everything. It was just, it was really, really well done. Really well done. I think people are gonna love it. Amazing.

Josh Malerman 28:19
So I give you that, because I don't think it says this in the doc. But there were there came a point where I was like, Jesus man, I would be like, I finished the book today, like on Facebook. And it just like it was like is that is like, that's all I'm gonna do to express what it feels like the finish now. Like, like, I feel, there's no feeling like it. I'm like, That's it. That's all I'm gonna do. And like Twitter was even less, you know? And it was like, finished book number 46. So like, Wait, hold on, like, how do I get and I started talking to Allison. How do I get across the actual journey feeling? mountain climb, joy, weirdness everything? How do I do this in a freaking post? And she's like, well, actually, she's like, I thought you you know, you might actually someone like you might do well on like, tick tock, maybe you can make like a video of it. You know, like, I'm gonna make a freaking like little video of it either. And, you know, but then I was like, Oh, that a movie? A movie of this. And so like three? Well, now it's like four or five books. You have it? Three books ago. I was like, Alright, we're gonna do it. And I think that book was actually no, it was the one before incident. So whatever came before instance, I was like, I'm gonna do it. So then I'm like, all ready. And then I was like, no, that sounds like a lot of work. Screw this. So then incidents came along, and I'm like, Alright, I'm gonna do it. This is the book. I'm gonna I'm gonna film myself writing this. And I'm so glad I did not film that one because that one should have been in the dark in the silent house and untouched by anything else. But again, it was it was laziness. So what I was like now I don't want to take something a lot of work. Then it holds for the came and I was like, Okay, maybe maybe this one. Yeah. And I and I got like a camera set up. And actually some producers jumped on board because I like tweeted about it. I'm like I'm doing it, you know now. And it took about two months to do. And I think there was like 50 Something hours of footage. And at some point, I started to have like a sense of, you know, I would say to Allison, like, I think what I want with this thing is that, like, a writer watches this. And then when they're done, they're like, you know, fucking I'm writing that book. Like, the minute like, they're done, they're, you know, what, screw it. I'm making that album, you know, and all right, right. But you know, what, screw it. You know, I'm like, my, I think, my my dream scenario. If someone watches it, the minute it ends, they sit down, they pick up their guitar, and they start working on that song. They started doing me now that they wouldn't have without the movie, but that it does act as some sort of like electricity in that way. That's, I think that's like the dream goal there. And also, to express in something wider than a frickin Facebook posts. What a journey it is, and how like, freakin exciting it is and how, man, it's like, there's no tone of voice in a Facebook post, man, you know, like, how do you how do you get across? Like how manage and how, you know, how much how you feel stretched at times, and how you feel overwhelmed at times, and how other times you just freak and rolling. And sometimes the office becomes like your own little like vaudevillian stage or something. Well, okay, the documentary I hope does that.

Bob Pastorella 31:38
Yeah, I showed it showed a clip of it to one of my co workers. And I said, you know, this is, you know, Josh Malerman doing a documentary about writing a book. And my coworker, he's not a writer, you know, but he watched about five minutes of that. And he was like, man, who knows that could see how a creative somebody who creates things, you know, a writer and artists or something like that could really pull some in for inspiration from this, because you get to see the inside process, you know, the stuff that's behind closed doors? Yeah. And I said, Yeah, you mean you don't really, you know, I said in every writer is different. And I think that, you know, like you you approach your, your, your writing to you as a joyous thing. Not that there haven't been moments of, you know, of like sheer terror or something like that, you know, or despair, know that you want you to approach it as a joyous thing. But, you know, to compare it, I think Stephen King said that, you know, he, they asked him about Thomas Harris, the guy who you know, who's written, you know, silence and lambs, and Manhunter and all those. And I said, How come? How come you don't think Thomas Harris is so prolific. And he says, because Thomas probably goes to his office and writes, and he has a pretty good little writing thing. And then he pulls his hair out and wails on the floor and cries and screams. And it's like, because he's writing something so horrible. It's like, no, because the act of writing is probably very painful for him. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 33:17
I read that somewhere to have a Thomas Harris that is say for him. And I just, I can relate in that. I, of course, I understand is different for everyone. But I couldn't relate. And like I'm like, Man, I can't imagine this being like, like, I can't imagine if the scales I can't imagine the scales of like pain, torture, despair, outweighing the joy, enthusiasm, momentum of writing. I just Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 33:44
I mean, I mean, everybody's different. Right. Right. Exactly.

Josh Malerman 33:49
And like, and so I would be equally inspired. If I watched the documentary of him. Frustrated or freaked out or pulling his hair out the whole time, I would be equally inspired by that. It's just the curtain. But it's kind of funny in a way too. Because pulling the curtain back, it's really what what it's really just a guy in an office, a guy. It's like, it's not like we're like pull the curtain back. And it's like, all these like meetings with editors. And everyone's like Martini lunches about like, huh, maybe Lauren should do that. I mean, it's a guy asking his cat what the main character's name should be.

That really happens in their friends.

Michael David Wilson 34:39
Yeah, yeah. So there's something I want to talk about in terms of what the documentary inspired me to do. And I'm going to talk in general terms to begin with. And then because as well as it this being a podcast, this is just a conversation because In friends, there will be things right get more specific, but we're gonna have to cut it out maybe, maybe put it back in in years when I can actually talk about this.

Josh Malerman 35:11
You masturbated right after also no. Oh, no. I

Michael David Wilson 35:14
mean, I'm, I'm fine to publicly talk about that. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 35:18
Yeah, that is funny right after I said that that crossed my mind. I'm like, actually, no, I think we've discussed that topic a few times, actually.

Michael David Wilson 35:26
I mean, it's a strange, This Is Horror with Josh Malerman if we don't at least make some sort of masturbation or just leapin reference so

Josh Malerman 35:37
as to be a whack off joke.

Michael David Wilson 35:41
But, but no, this was so inspiring that there's a project that I guess for the last decade or so I've been wondering about doing, but I know that it will be such a time commitment. So I've been putting it off, or I've been waiting for the right time. And there was something about your documentary that just inspired me so much that I was like, I need to do this thing that I've been putting off, and I need to do it now. And then I literally for the last month have been slowly working away on it. And it's because I watched your documentary. Wow.

Josh Malerman 36:22
Wow. That is the greatest freakin thing. I wish Allison was sitting my hair. I guess I can tell her this, but she'll have a listen to this. That is fucking unbelievable.

Bob Pastorella 36:35
And that's it's good that you that you come away from the documentary experience, the signing to take it, you know, the plunge on something that's been simmering for a long time. You know, to me, I think that's good. I mean, it's like I'm recently, I typically try to only work on one project at a time. Even if I have another idea. I backburner stuff, you know, hey, let me put this on. Let me put this on the stove and let it simmer for a little while. And I was working on a project and decided to make some some very, very LML elementary changes to it, nothing, nothing that would change the directory I was trying to go with. And I had another idea that's been simmering in the background. And a character appeared in my you know, in my imagination. And in she she's she's an insistent little turd, and I'm writing her story now. Because she demanded that I write it. She came to me fully formed and said, This is the you need to write the story right now. I don't even know how well this this story could even be, you know, done. It's it's a lot different what i've what i've what I'm used to doing. In some respects, it does have some, you know, on the screen violent human on human violence that I typically shy away from, but it's essential to the story. And but I've decided that, because I've filled so good with this. And it's a novella. I mean, I'm basically about 9000 10,000 words from being done with a first draft. So and then I will begin to revise it. And I'm going to, I'm going to send it out, I've got a couple of places in mind. And so I'm going to, you know, when it's ready, I'm going to send it out. And I have no doubt that these spices would be interested in it. But I'm going to work on ideas. And we if something hits me, then I'm going to I'm going to take the plunge on it. Because doing that is actually helped me start thinking about other things for the other story that was originally working on. It's actually kind of spurred me on ideas on another story that I've had long simmering, that I want to do. And so, you know, I just felt like that. Having that stuff bubble over, sometimes it bubbles over and you have to you have to pay it. You gotta mind the stove, man. You know, I mean, I don't know how else to put it. There's

Josh Malerman 39:16
some like Paulo mal nature to that dock, right? Where I imagined like a non creative would be like, How the f is this guy getting anything done? My God is like he's writing on the walls. And he's like, drinking and he's like doing this and you know, but you know, I finished filming. And then this is, I mean, this is exactly the kind of thing we're talking about. I've finished filming and obviously there's the music that Chad and I are working on in the movie for the movie, you know, but there's a ton of music in that movie that's more like classically sounding and when I was done filming, I was like, Man, I need to do something that has not I just wrote a book. I filmed it. Chad and I made this freakin music I need to do son, totally out. And I do has made a couple of like instrumental albums have just like didn't didn't, you know, music stuff. A year later we're editing the movie. And obviously the chat stuff fits where it's supposed to stuff were supposed to fit. And I said to Allison, I'm like, shit, man, I got to do a soundtrack for this movie, you know? And then Allison's like, What are you talking about? The second year that I'm filming, you recorded, like three soundtrack albums? And I'm like, no, no, no, but that wasn't. That wasn't for this. And she's like, and she's like, What are you talking about? And so you're telling me that you have a movie, without music, and then three soundtrack albums without a movie. She was like, Josh, put those together. And that's what the movie is now. And it's similar. There's a similar like, you know, this inspires this. And then this boat, this brings this and this boils over to this. And it's that Powell Mel, just like, okay, you know, an object in motion tends to stay in motion. And, like, I had no concept that I was scoring that movie. While I was while I was doing all the instrumental stuff. And it all fits so well into that movie. And if Alison hadn't said that, to me, I would have like, sat down and tried to write the whole sum whole thing for it.

Bob Pastorella 41:17
Yeah, it's, it's a snowball effect. And as you I used to, I used to be scared of that. And I'm not anymore. I'm not scared of it. Because I've had projects I've gone to right to fly in here. Where deal helped me anyway. That was actually a spider. Yeah. No, no, it was fun, everyone. I'm crazy. The, the, I'm just, I'm, I used to be I used to be fearful that and I'm not afraid of it. No more

Josh Malerman 41:49
like fear of like, out of control. pantser like, what the fuck am I doing? Kind of Yeah, I'm

Bob Pastorella 41:54
working on five ones. I can make them all one book, you know? Boy, if that ain't a flaw reference. I don't know what it is. We can all we want happy family. But anyway. It's just I don't know, man. It's just it was very, it just ended watching the documentary. I was like, Man, I'm on the right track, man, I'm doing the right thing. You know, because I'm not stagnant. And not that I was stagnant. But I just felt energized. I love that. That's a high you can't you cannot fucking if you could bottle it up by it.

Josh Malerman 42:26
Yeah, I you know, I've for a long time. Now I've had this feeling that I guess my personal theory of momentum is like stay in motion, you're not gonna likely end up. I'm sure we've said this before, I'm sort of students before, you're likely not going to end up where you like, see, like some vision of where you're going to end up. But by virtue of staying in motion, you will end up somewhere. That's just it's going to happen, you're in motion, you're doing things like even if that just means you're in motion with this. And now the books done. And now you have that image, just whatever it is, staying in motion. There's a ripple effect. There's a snowball effect. And then you start to see like, oh, shit, man, I write it down. And I got this soundtrack for this, I don't even mean to do and we got enough works that aren't going on here that I get, you start to you almost start to form like an identity through the multiple and various works of art. Whereas if you were just setting out to, you know, maybe let's say Ryan a best seller, which that's, that's fine. But if somebody was setting out to just do that, it seems like it'd be more like sort of like a job like more of like a punch in I write a thrilling chapter. I leave it on a cliffhanger I go to the next one you know and this is more of like the artistic life the more like the momentum the snowball the ripples the where's the spirit taking you where is it moving you and I think that again, how though after you explain that in a post, there you can attend Oh, so I used to always say to people I'd be like I said it's a Jan's all the time man if I could just get like, if I was just sitting at the bar with this guy, I'd be able to explain to him like what like what that book meant to me like I don't know if someone doesn't like Daphne or like who cares but if I was at the bar with that person, I bet you they'd have a different feeling of I talked about like the anxiety behind Daphne and writing and whatever. They might not like the book still but I bet they would feel different about it. And and so that's when this started being like, Okay, you need to make a freakin movie of this then though, right away. It became like after like three books of saying like being too lazy to do it. got the camera set up. I got this audio that the producers they got me a little like, set me up with some audio. There's a little better. I mean, you guys saw the audio is not pristine, but it was better than it would have been. I'm all set to go today. Anyone and I'm like, oh shit, I have no idea what to say, oh boy, I like froze that first day, I left the office. And I went to talk to Allison. And she goes, Just be yourself. And there's a whole segment in the movie where I'm like, what the app? Does that mean? You know, it was like the weird like the scariest advice she could have given me. I'm like, no, no, don't tell me that. But it started to become this weird relationship with the camera itself. And I have talked to other filmmakers about this. I'm like, if you guys ever, like started to feel like, like the camera was like, like a director of photography or a person, like, like someone that's making the movie with you? And they're like, Oh, yes, absolutely. Like, the camera starts to feel like it's an actual actual being, it's you and this person, this thing, this entity, are making this movie together. And I started to become like, friends with the camera. I started to become like, like, okay, I can tell this guy anything. I can talk to this guy about anything that I used to have, like, like, Okay, I'm gonna come in and this thing, or I'm gonna have him, you know, and you know, you should just film like, you should just get my boots today, as if I'm telling the camera, you should just feel my boots going back and forth? Or what if What have you just like film, you know? And um, it's like, it was almost like a unnecessary break from so you weren't? You didn't feel like you were like, alone in your office? Doing this thing. It was like, it was like it was like the volleyball and that Tom Hanks Bumi? Well, Wilson, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 46:33
yeah, that's right. I had a number of people shout that at me. But, I mean, when you first set out to make this documentary did you have in mind, I suppose how you wanted people to receive, or what an ideal reaction might look like because I mean, it's interesting how, you know, talking to Bob and I, and even your own reaction in terms of the music that you will making, we have all had a very active and creative reaction we've come away on so this project, this documentary, it's almost like an art multiplier. Here, you've created art. And then I suppose in in a weird way, or if I want to make a darker analogy, it's almost like an artistic virus, you watch the tape, and then you have to create more art yourself.

Josh Malerman 47:35
Yeah, I mean, initial idea was just, man, please let me explain what this is, like more than a Facebook post, then it became, actually, man, if I saw this when I was 20. This would have like, really done something for me, you know. So yeah, there's some something did change there. But also, I also think about it like, and this might even sound a little lazy. But let's say I was supposed to, like, give a speech or something, right. And, like, I went up to a school somewhat recently, and gave like an hour long speech and hour long speech. And I got there, and one of I had the documentary to show the room. It's like, I can't, I'm not gonna be able to explain it better than this here. Watch this for 80 minutes, whatever it is. And then let's q&a for like 45 minutes. Let's let's talk about what each of you are working on. And let's talk about your reaction and this and that, because it's it almost feels like I like inadvertently feel filmed my my take on the whole process. And when I meant to just film the process, but now when I watch it, I realized no, you actually you capture the energy and philosophy of the process too. And so well, how am I going to tap that in a speech? You know, I mean, there's all these different angles and music in the movie.

Bob Pastorella 49:02
I think it's cool to you even use it to me is I will sometimes draw things out but you use like dioramas and stuff like that. To. To in to me, I don't feel like that that was done for the film. I have a feeling that you've done that with pretty much every story you remember. Yeah, you get things out.

Josh Malerman 49:24
The best one is and it's lost to me now is black matter? Well, I have one photo of it, but it's so good. It was amazing. It was in the shoe box. And he was in the Army con and nurse Allen and the record player in the room and it was just so it looked like the book and i i It's gotten to me now I still have the Daphne gymnasium. I still have um, what was the other one? There was another big one I can't remember right now. But obviously I have all the tools for these stuff. It's most of it's in this drawer like right next to me, actually. But yeah,

Bob Pastorella 49:58
I'm paying the closest I've ever come to that. I was imagined myself tied to a chair in our would be to break the chair but other nap How

Josh Malerman 50:06
about Alison as as Jack lemme Allison? Yeah. She's like, Why do you keep dressing me up as dudes in your movie man? Like, can I just be like my cell from your movies? I'm like, Allison, can you play Jack Linney? And so we need to put on a suit and a mustache, you know? But she's, uh, she makes a good dude. She makes kind of like a badass dude, in a weird way. Yeah, she's good. She's great.

Michael David Wilson 50:36
I mean, she's very versatile in terms of the characters that can go.

Josh Malerman 50:41
Right? Even in that movie. She she has like short hair, blonde hair, dark hair, she has Jack Libby, she even in the course of the two months, she looks like five different people.

Michael David Wilson 50:56
You know, what was interesting for me about the fact that you are creating it tolls for the I don't expect you to remember this because this was nine years ago, over nine years ago. But the first time that we spoke, by the way, how crazy is it that it's nearly been a decade since we first spoke? You mentioned this idea. You mentioned an idea where, you know, time was fucked, were fun. Because Dan and I then how if we were kind of joking about like, oh, we could have like a pro wrestler named like, Tommy time and things like that. This is something that has been, I guess, like we view for such a long time. And just to see it now not only come to fruition, but to watch you being like, right, we're gonna put these ingredients into the parks and watching it almost in what feels like real time becoming the book. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 52:05
you know, the, it's funny. There's like, the editor, well, the producers, because this is this is interesting. You know, I did it on an iPhone, like a brand like the newest one. And so the footage immediately went to a cloud, meaning that the producers could watch the dailies tonight. And I was like, This is amazing. This is like old school filmmaking like, the producers could literally weigh in on this stuff the next day, and be like, this is funny or whatever. And they said something to me that I this this was maybe my like, the sort of proudest takeaway from this doc, was they were like we were expecting fly on the wall, just sort of like footage. But you actually set up scenes, like, like you'd like like, not just the diorama like in terms of like, you enter, you sit down and you talk about this subject. That doesn't mean that I had that written out, of course, but you can definitely tell that's not the case. But like, you had to start where you are going to sit down and talk about this subject for a few minutes. And then the scene ends. And so they're like this is actually somewhat helpful or easier to edit together, because you've done individual vignette scenes, versus just a camera rolling for like two months. And and if I if it was like a subject I didn't know, as I was making a movie on Allison or something, I would likely just follow her. And then she's working on this. And I'd be filming her in this and then we added together. But with myself, there was a sense of like, Okay, today we're going to film you know, you're going to be talking about you've already used this thing. So let's do it from this angle. And, and you've already done this and that. So there was some sense of being the director. And that was freaking awesome. That was awesome. The editor. There was one scene, man, there was one scene. Oh, my God, while we were just talking. Did you hear me get a message? I did. Yeah. That was from the producers of the movie. That was just crazy. I just got an email while we're talking.

Michael David Wilson 54:16
But you gotta check it. That might be an exclusive.

Josh Malerman 54:21
Yeah, let's see. Okay. I think it's probably verifying is we're in tomorrow. Yeah. Hi, are we are confirmed for tomorrow. Yes, we're by this sort of this group at it. Yes. So the editor said to me, Okay, there's one scene I got this one scene that I love is freaking loved. And it just is really long. And I think it's really funny and no one else really thought it was that funny. I don't think and but I loved it. And I'm like, I'm sorry, guys. This scene stays the same as this day is. I mean, whenever I mean, obviously, I'm making the movie alone. If I I really wanted to stay, it's gonna stay. And but the last time we watched it, I was like, Yeah, this scene is a dead spot, isn't it? And the editor is like, yeah, it is. And I was like, I delete it. And then he goes, I'll never forget this. He goes, now you're a director, you just got rid of a scene that you light. And I was like, oh, yeah, it did. It felt good. It was more than just kill your darlings. It was like, I've been fighting for this particular scene. And then I watched the edit. And I'm like, No, that's that's a dead. That's a dead spot. Let's let's forget it, just let it go. And it was liberating. Yeah. So there was more than just, you know, satisfying the expression of what it feels like to write a novel, it was more than just trying to find a space much why much wider than social media. There was also some kind of self discovery as like a director. For as silly as it sounds. It's just as little Do It Yourself movie. But like to be honest with you guys. And I guess this is the virus you're talking about? That movie makes me want to go make a movie? Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 56:09
That's what I was going to talk about. I mean, obviously, we've Ryan Lewis, you have spinner black yarn, which might be confusing for some people, because they're like, hang on, isn't that a short story collection? It's like, yeah, it's a short story collection? And also, you're kind of I mean, how would you even describe what what what is it that you have with Ryan, a

Josh Malerman 56:32
production company that is like, mostly, originally focused on, you know, the film, TV side of all my books and stories, but then as you know, expanding to people other than just me. So now there's like a number of writers and stories. And we have Ryan and I have, oh, my goodness. My goodness, do we have a lot of zoom meetings for a spinner black yarn. And so in a way, what it really boils down to is that, because like for producing, producing teams to work together, I guess, there, it could just be like friendship, but for producing teams who work together, there also has to be what does each bring to the table. And in this case, Ryan, and I bring like your book, right, and I bring my book, so we bring him in, if he asked you and me the most important freakin part, right. And then we're often partnered with people that we know a lot of, we have a lot of contacts and stuff, too. But it's often partnered with somebody who has more than we do, or has a better relationship with a certain studio. And they're like, We will partner with you on this and bring it to this studio that we have a relationship with. So there's some like, you know, when, when involved when the production teams coming together, because Ryan and I, it's not like we're like, you know, some super famous production company or something. But what we do have is a lot of badass stories. So there's a sense of like, oh, we can bring this and you got that. And this is a good team.

Michael David Wilson 58:04
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sometimes people will say, you know, what, where's the originality in Hollywood or in filmmaking these days? And it's like, it's, we've seen a black yarn. That's very, is there's

Josh Malerman 58:18
a lot there. Yeah, a lot of it there.

Michael David Wilson 58:21
Yeah. And, you know, I mean, it's such an incredible service that you're doing for the writing community as a whole. You've got so many great writers on your roster. So many.

Josh Malerman 58:35
I can't even tell you how many times Ryan and I say, and we've said this about you. I've said this about Jonathan ganz and how many times we say like, oh my god, please let this work out for him. Like please like, because we're, you know, doing the same thing we're trying to do for my stories. And it's just like, oh my god, can you imagine being able to call Jan's and be like, hey, it's on like they're doing it? Or they want to do that. Like, can you imagine the joy of being able to call a fellow writer and be like, Hey, this is now reached here, or they're casting or whatever? I mean, like, Oh, my God, right? It's not easy. It's freaking hard. It's a gazillion meetings that don't result in a lot. I will say this, though, and maybe this is interesting for listeners. I think that prior to swimming in these supposedly shark infested waters, we'd heard so many horror stories of like fellow producers and Hollywood execs and their notes and this and that, and honestly guys have Ryan and I have worked with 100 producers. I mean, there's like maybe two that we were like a little wary of like I mean, for the most part, it's good people that are like smart and trying to get shit done, and working their ass off to like make it happen just like we are. You know, very rarely are we with someone who's like, oh boy, this guy let's maybe there's one time and where we're like, Yeah, let's not work with that guy, you know? I mean it. We've been doing it for a few years now. And I'm, like I said, countless meetings, but in my experience, and I'm not saying it's all been like, rosy and everyone's like rolling in dough or something. No, we're like, busting our butts to try to get anything to happen. In my experience, the fellow producers, and the people that we've met with has been like, kind of freaking great. It's just like people trying to do shit just like you are, man.

Michael David Wilson 1:00:27
And so how are you feeling about the film side of the industry right now? You know, post the writers strike posted the agreement. I know there's been a lot of uncertainty but where are you at?

Josh Malerman 1:00:44
I think that there seemed like there was a moment of like, oh my god like paint drying slowness from obviously the strike itself, but the immediate aftermath of it to the then when the strike ended. I think we're all like, Woohoo, now. We'll get started. And then it was like, Yeah, but now there's like a backlog and now there's catch up and now there's, you know, so it feels to me like it's hitting its stride again now. And that is a really good feeling. But man, I would say because coupling the strike with the immediate aftermath of the strike, there was like a good nearly a year of what felt like just so slow. Everything was so obviously nothing happened during the strike, and in the months following, so I do feel like it's hitting his stride again now. And not only that, as you guys know, I don't even tell you this. The horror genre has never been more like open to like refreshing weird shit. And it isn't skinning marine plain theaters, theaters, and terrify her and long like although long legs does have a lot of them. More Hollywood's sort of like, landmark like moments than you would then you would think or something. But like, like weird shit is welcome. A 24 obviously, is doing a ton of that. Neon is doing a ton of that. And like Ryan and I are trying to do that too. You know where where like a movie like Carpenter's Farm feels like it can be like Like, like, embrace try now. You know, where where it's like, just complete personality, like breakdown. Versus like a werewolf. Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 1:02:27
they're embracing the darkness. Well, everybody's embracing the dark stuff, except Except for UK publishers. But you know, yeah,

Josh Malerman 1:02:34
I guess, man. Back to that.

Bob Pastorella 1:02:37
Little dark. Dark on the UK watching.

Josh Malerman 1:02:41
This is an ordinary novel called incidents around the house. It's um, it's for children. Don't worry. It's not dark. There's nothing weird here is the dark cover. And maybe it looks darker on camera. It's actually very bright. I'll read you one line. Oh, the very first line ever. The sun is out. Now. See, this is a friendly, this is a friendly book.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:04
Yeah, I still think as I said in the first conversation that there is something very bland with your paranormal activity about it. It feels like the nearest we've had to that kind of found footage in literary form. And, yeah, there's part of me that wants the reason that the UK publisher wouldn't touch it is that they were genuinely scared. You know, they started reading it and they were afraid that they don't like they literally don't want to touch it. They're like, I don't want to get involved. I don't want to unleash this into the world. I don't know what would happen to me. I'm I'm not doing it. To, to close to, to real life. Yeah,

Josh Malerman 1:03:51
this book, this book. Is this book scary. I'll tell you why. If I hadn't written on let me just make sure I have this right. It tolls for the Washington with Han fries. If I hadn't written four books since then. I would be like freaked out. I'd be like, this can't be the last thing I need. I need to write something else. I can't. I can't like end on this note for a second. Like you know what I mean? Like let's write let's make the most colorful messed up thing we can you know, and because like I'm I don't want to leave just that note hanging in the office for for a year or something? No idea. No, I needed to write some other shit right away after that one. Yeah. What

Michael David Wilson 1:04:29
would I do if it had literally been the last book that you'd written? And then you disappeared from this world? Oh, my God. Like then the publishers definitely not touching it.

Bob Pastorella 1:04:44
That's it. Have you read Senator Kane? moment right there. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Michael David Wilson 1:04:51
But did you find that you then wanted to write and finish the next book, after incidents even quicker than you ordinarily would. I need to right brain

Josh Malerman 1:05:04
came after was well, it was a total for the actually, that was the next book. Um, so the documentary helped that in terms of like, the playfulness, I think, no doubt in the documentary I rewrite incidents. Yeah, there's that moment where like, now I gotta rewrite incidents around the house and that I don't you know, but then after that, because of the documentary, I wrote a nonfiction book. And so there was an made those three instrumental albums so there was a sense after incidents of like, Alright, let's get super motherfucking colorful, let's make albums. Let's make a movie. Let's do like more of a kind of a thriller. It holds for the, let's do a nonfiction book. And then the frauds of Fantasma was sort of like a return to straight up horror again.

Michael David Wilson 1:05:49
And this nonfiction book is just a one I believe you mentioned, where it's about you and Alison, and possibly a couple of friends watching Evil Dead. Is that the book?

Josh Malerman 1:05:59
The book is called watching Evil Dead. Yeah. I night, 12 years ago that Allison and I had with another Cabal, where her cousin and her cousin's girlfriend at the time. And Alison and I were new to each other. And I met Alison, and then like two months later, got a book deal. So my whole life is just like, whoa, like, I'm suddenly in love. And I suddenly have a book that I'm like, What is going on? And we went and watched that movie with this couple that were on, like their last their last night together and audibly visibly, palpably so. So it was this incredible dynamic of brand new love and love about whole arc in one room together, almost like they're on this end of the couch. We're over here, like, and that dynamic coupled with, I just got a book deal. And I'm watching the first movie. So I'm at the head of a career in horror, I'm standing at the door of it, and watching a movie from like, like geniuses, that when they were standing at the head, and at that, at the door of a career in horror, so to wake up the next morning, I felt like I had been like there had been major backdrops present that night. This wasn't just we didn't just go watch a movie, like, like, we were just like, there was some giant themes in that room with us. And I said to Allison, this 12 years ago, I was like, Hey, man, I can read a whole book about last night. And then and then she was like, alright, you know, and then 12 years later, I did.

Michael David Wilson 1:07:38
And have you got a publisher attached to that one? Is that going via del Rey is

Josh Malerman 1:07:44
another exclusive hard cover by Del Rey. Yeah, this is just coming out in like, the real way. Yep. Mm hmm.

Michael David Wilson 1:07:52
Was it difficult to sell? Or did it take some persuasion? Because obviously, you're going from

Josh Malerman 1:07:59
an interesting I, I was, so it's similar to the doc not it doesn't cover it's not like writing a novel, but it's similar in terms of the love of the game, right? Love writing books, and I I was nervous to send it to Kristen. I'm like, she's gonna be like, Dude, what the f? I mean, in the book, I'm getting we're getting drunk and stoned. And, you know, Chris is like, what is this dude, you know, but I send it to her. And then it struck me after I emailed it to it, I had this weird moment of peace, where I was like, wait a minute, Christian loves books. Like, that's what she got into this in the first place. And this, there's something about this book that is, like, remind you of why you fell in love with reading and begin with and writing. So I was like, I called Ryan. And I was like, you know, I think Kristen might actually liked this man. And he's like, Yeah, well, we'll see, you know, and she called me and she's like, this is great. And I was like, okay, and she's like, let's, let's go out, down and out. And let's go to obviously, let's go to Delray first, I mean, only, well, at least first. I mean, if they passed, we would go somewhere else. But she said wisely. And I had already accepted this to temper any sort of expectations. And as you guys know, it's not really my style to do that. But I but let's understand Del Rey from my when I wanted to do a nonfiction book about for people getting drunk and high and watching it well, then 12 years ago, when she sends it to Del Rey, and Alison are hanging out and Kristen called me and was like, do they love it? It's on and we were like, what? And what does that also do? That I already knew that I had a great relationship with Delray but this that's like next level, because it's not just like, they like you. It's like they get you like, if they might, if they want to put out this book too. They get you you know, so I so I feel like my relationship with Del Rey like, was even enhanced more. It was already great. I mean, you've seen me post so much. I love them and stuff. And it's like this He's like, Wow, you guys like watching him, dad. Alright, let's roll. And that's kind of what I mean. If I'm gonna go on a book tour for watching him with them, it makes sense to like, show the doc. And then talk about you know what I mean? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do with that one. But yeah. hardcover and everything.

Michael David Wilson 1:10:18
Yeah, I mean, rarely have I seen a publisher be so all in with an offer, as Del Rey, were and are with you? I mean, you know, you went from was the HarperCollins originally with Bird Box? Yes, that you went, you went from HarperCollins to Del Rey. But, you know, most of the time, when that happens, they would take a K forthcoming project. So the really big ones only but no, they, they wanted the novella. They want it things like of course, the house at the bottom of a lake. They wanted things, like, on this day, the pig, and it's like, you just don't see that. But what what an endorsement and now, you know, anything you do, it's like they trust you. They know that they're in good hands. And well, no, we

Josh Malerman 1:11:19
Christians have found really, I don't mean to talk over you. Kristen says that with a super flattering and I hadn't considered that. She told me that. I don't even know if I'm supposed to say any. I feel like I've been revealing a lot in this talk. But maybe that's good. It's all cool stuff. But she told me that I think that this was she got like a two book further deal that we're both like unknown, meaning whatever the next two books are. And she's like, that's the first time I ever got one of those. You know, where it's like, we don't know, I don't even know what you're doing next. But they're interested. Like, we're sitting with a deal for like, two unknowns. And it was like, God Damn, man. Yeah, this is good. But I also feel like there's like, what's the very phrase? It's not like, I'm like Dean Koons for them. It's like, millions and millions. You know what I mean? It's not like that. It's like, it's more of this like, nurturing, creative, like, artistic relationship. Like me, Trisha and I, when we talk about stuff, it's like, okay, so like, the mood of incidents is like this. So do you want do we follow it with like, a similar way where it is? Or did we break that wave against like a story like this? It's very, it's like artists talking about it. It's not it seems less being counter. There's a strategy, but it seems like an artistic strategy, like a mood, like, like, what? What story should follow this story? And like, there feels like we're working on that together. Like a career arc. Which I shouldn't go like this. It should just go straight up.

Michael David Wilson 1:13:00
Yeah, but I think the most interesting dogs they, they don't just go straight up. Yeah, it's more exciting.

Josh Malerman 1:13:08
There's no arc that just goes straight. On McCartney, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 1:13:17
You gotta be careful with that arc. Because you know, you have a really good relationship with them. And in five years got Josh Mellon morons grocery list from now, you know? And it's like, there's, there's the arc guide. Yeah.

Josh Malerman 1:13:33
I got a great question for you guys. Because this is something I'm thinking about. So you both now imagine that we are the publishers, right? You both know, incidents around the house? What kind of books should follow incidents around the house? Meaning you already know you've read on our mind to know the varieties or whatever? What kind of book do you try to write about? Are you trying to put out a next book that's as scary or this or that? Or do you totally abandon that? Because you're not going to like top it in that way? Do you go somewhere like super colorful? Like I'm very careful, or is that too far removed? Do you go like, what direction would you go? If you were the publisher? What should follow incidents around the house?

Michael David Wilson 1:14:10
I almost feel like you know, based on the conversation and knowing the different books that you have, I almost feel we put out the kind of nonfiction easier, dad. That's

Bob Pastorella 1:14:25
my thoughts. Exactly. My thoughts. Exactly.

Josh Malerman 1:14:27
I thought so too. Because then what you're doing is you're letting incidents breathe. Let it be what it is, let it grow on its own. And you're putting on a book that doesn't I don't love this word, but doesn't compete with it. And anyway, right. So let incidents breathe, and then put this book out. And then the paperback of incidence comes out next year. And then now you're not enough time has passed and you still had another book, watching you with that. And now here's your next novel. I think that's the right way also, I'm so freaking glad I asked you guys that okay.

Michael David Wilson 1:14:58
Anyway, Go. And we'll find out soon. What direction do the public does the publisher actually take about this? And yes,

Josh Malerman 1:15:10
I think that's another thing. And I don't mean this to sound weird or sign. But like, I trust them, I believe them. Like, there has been, I don't like the phrase like, oh, you play nice. There's like, no, like, if they really think it should go this other way, obviously, I'd be like, Okay, let's do that. Because, like, to me, it's like, it's not just like my jobs, right book. And your job is to sell books, right? It's not just that, but it's like, again, there is a relationship here. And okay, if you guys think then then then you get that one. Yeah, that one, let's do your way. And then if I think a book about, you know, 100 pair of shoes should be the next book, then I'm gonna, I'll fight for you. I mean, and maybe I'll get that. So it's like, it's not just a matter of like, what hill you want to die on. It's actual, the give and take of like, like, being in a band. It's like, and that's I, I always think that being in the band has been like the most glorious, like in terms of like, democratic collaboration, working with other people deferring to other people. Because like, I've been in a band that was like, I'm an advanced those like 19. And so I'm very used to, Alright, you guys think you like your I find it's great. You guys all like this way better, let's do it this way better, and 99% of the time, they were right in their way. And so same thing with Delray.

Michael David Wilson 1:16:35
And you've hit upon really why you have such a good relationship with Del Rey. And just like, you know, the, the secret, or it's not really so much of a secret, but to any good relationship is trust. If you trust them, and they trust you, which is exactly what's happening here, then things are going to work, you know, you can apply that to being in a band, you can apply that to a romantic relationship, you can apply that to any sort of business venture. And having that trust, that means that you get things done that means that, you know, you're free to also be honest and authentic and to say, you know, what you're feeling and perhaps, you know, worse relationships, both in publishing, and relationships. Generally, people are afraid to say what they're really thinking, and they're not trusting one another. Well, it's gonna fall apart.

Josh Malerman 1:17:36
Yep. Exactly. I 100%. Agree. You know, we do what we are doing soon is shopping the documentary. Yeah, yeah. So we have a tomorrow, where it's like a, it's kind of a live at it, where all the producers and the editor and me, we're all online, and we watch it online, and talk about it as we watch it for any like, last minute, and it's never like chopping it not long after that. So it's kind of like, I don't know, man, I don't know if it's gonna be at a festival or try to or have what I mean, is this gonna end up like, I don't know, like adding some streamer. I have no idea. My original idea was film this thing edited on iMovie. And throw it on YouTube for your fellow writers. And I put out like a tweet about that. Like, I'm making this documentary and then ended up and then these producers contacted me, and they're like, Hey, we've never heard of a sudden exactly like this. Can we actually produce this with you? And I was like, what? Yeah, that's and then that's one of those moments where Twitter's amazing. And I was like, oh, yeah, you kidding me? And they've like, they're the ones, you know, that are going to shop it. So we're like, nearing that moment.

Michael David Wilson 1:18:50
I think whatever happens with it is going to be a success. And to be honest, I feel it already is a success. You know, you have created an incredible documentary here, you've created a documentary that has inspired me has inspired Bob, you inspired yourself into writing more music. And I really do believe that a lot of people that watch this, particularly if they are creatively minded, they are going to be inspired to create more art. And so if it gets picked up by here of a big organization, and then it can be streamed by hundreds of 1000s or even millions, then that's great. But even if, you know you decided to go back to basics and put it on YouTube, I think it would potentially whatever happens. Yeah, whatever happens, I think will be good because if it's on YouTube, I can see that going viral creatively, particularly if there are people saying oh, this documentary inspired It means to do this. And then, you know, fans of whatever it was like, well, then I have to watch the documentary. I mean, there are even ways where you can put it on YouTube or you could put it on something like that. And perhaps you have to pay to watch it. But I don't know that reads that avenue. But I feel like Eva, Eva Go big or go free. You know, if you go in between, then it doesn't always work.

Josh Malerman 1:20:29
I totally know what you mean. 100%? No, I mean, either, then that's a great way of saying it, rather than go big or go small. Either you go big or you go free. Yeah, that's a great way of saying that and a great way of looking at things. I totally agree with what you're saying, Let's swing for the fences, or just fucking Bush free. Let's roll, you know, like, like, yeah, totally feel the same way.

Michael David Wilson 1:20:49
I want to know when we're gonna win with a big question, but why not? What do you think is the biggest lightbulb moment in your writing life thus far?

Josh Malerman 1:21:01
Explain that a hair more than just a one more letter? What

Michael David Wilson 1:21:04
do you think if you could distill your writing career to a single moment that has changed the game for you or it has affected your career? The

Josh Malerman 1:21:17
easiest answer? I mean, is the moment that I realized it didn't matter if the rough draft was good or bad. I mean, that's it that that that was that is the most liberating artistic moment in my life. Because when when you sit down to write your first novel, oh my God, and you're like, everything's gonna represent me and Phil, and I'm comparing it to like Faulkner and, and Edgar Allan Poe, and whatever it is, and Virginia Woolf and then you're like, Oh, my God is even the street name. I'm like, this should have been my friend, Danny's name, like, does everything have to represent something? You know what I mean? You're like losing your mind. And then you realize, after you finish one, you realize, well, I'm going to rewrite it and the rewrite is so fucking severe, that you're like, oh, shit, it didn't matter if I got shit, right, in the rough draft or not. All that really mattered was in we've said this to you before for sure. Would you rather have 300 pages you can fix or no pages at all? Right. And so that went when that moment of realizing that there was no that the rough draft is going to change so much most 90% of time, and rewrites and data, then the rough draft just becomes like, let's blast some music and like fucking roll, man, anything goes and we're going to write like scenes that we never would have thought of, if we outlined it, and let's feel it and let's go, let's go in like, you know, you're putting them in the horror soundtrack loud in the office and you're like, that. Maybe you were drunk for a chapter and this or that, because it doesn't matter. All that matters is the momentum of getting this. And then the rewrite is like a schoolmarm walks in and slaps your arm or the wrist with a ruler slaps your wrist with a ruler. And he's like, hey, no more or less. Now you got to write. Now, you actually got to write a good note, Josh. Now it matters. Now, you got to make it good. Okay, but I can do that, because I got this total, Tangled, amazing mess of the rough drafts that only exists because there wasn't the pressure of whether or not and had to be good or bad.

Michael David Wilson 1:23:22
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, the place where a lot of projects get abandoned is in that rough draft in first draft. So if you take the year off, now, the completion rate goes up dramatically. Oh, yeah.

Josh Malerman 1:23:39
And it's not it's not even just like, it's not it's definitely not a matter of I don't care or No, no, no, no, no, it's like, you value the hell out of it. It's not that it's, it's that you know, can you can like you can spend all the time in the world to make it perfect and struggle and possibly abandon it. And the rewrite still gonna change at all. So what's the dip? Let's just roll. That was without question. The the lightning bolt or the lightning bolt? Whatever bowl, the moment for me was that realization from there, it's been just like, you know, endless, just that that light has never turned off. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:24:20
And I like as well from your ranch. And the idea that you can take what might seem a complex thing and just turn it into an A or B and say, Okay, do you want zero pages? Or do you want 300 Rough pages, if we can take complex problems and just turn them into an A or B, then it's going to be a lot simpler to know what to do. And

Josh Malerman 1:24:46
it's kind of fun to play different roles. Now for the rewrite, maybe in the music's a little lower. Now. You're not drinking. You're like, you know, maybe you washed your shirt and you've showered, you sit down to rewrite it and you're like Okay, this is kind of fun now. I'm playing a different role. Now I actually am going to fix this for you, Josh. I am. I'm the guy that's gonna come in here and actually make this smoother for you. And it feels good to be that guy. You know, but you can't be that guy without being that like that raging animal first. Yeah. A little primal thing goes there. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:25:24
yeah. Well, as always, this has been incredible. We love talking to you. We love your energy. We love you. And you

Josh Malerman 1:25:35
and there was something interesting about this one, like this conversation where there's a lot of things that we talked about the public, you can't publish, share. And watch. I haven't told anyone about watching you. But that, like that's there. There hasn't been an announcement of that. And like, this has been it's not all about scooper, revelatory, but, but it is. I don't know why it they all felt very liberating for me to just freely talk about all that the documentary to all that. So. So yeah, but thank you guys for watching that, like, oh my god, like, obviously, it's a new thing for me. So for YouTube to have like, watch that and, like, had any thoughts at all? Like, I don't know, if you realize like, how big that is for me. Like, I'm like, I'm gonna go to Alice and everything he has said. So thanks for that.

Michael David Wilson 1:26:18
Yeah. Thank you for inspiring us. And, you know, I can't wait to see what is final form is I will walk here again, I'll probably watch the rough draft multiple times. It really is one

Josh Malerman 1:26:32
of what have you put on like the dock where you went to see the dock when it was finished. And now it's like Brad Pitt is playing me. And like, it's all like super high fi. And it's like, I'm thinking of writing an outline on the wall. And then you're like, Oh, Josh, no. Yeah. With a rough draft.

Michael David Wilson 1:26:54
Yeah, then I might feel similarly to how I felt when I saw World War Z with Brad Pitt. And it's quite the reputation. I envisage.

Josh Malerman 1:27:06
I haven't read that but I really, really want to,

Michael David Wilson 1:27:09
is it awesome? Yeah, so

Bob Pastorella 1:27:12
the opposite of the movie.

Michael David Wilson 1:27:15
I'm trying to not be too damning. You know, and I do think in fairness to World War Z, it would not have got planned as much as it did if it hadn't had the fresh year of being World War Z. You know, if that had been just another zombie, or apocalyptic movie, then I think it would have got a much better reception but it's like when we spoke about Metallica when when you put the Metallica label on he put the world was eon now the expectations are higher.

Josh Malerman 1:27:52
I gotta read the I read devolution or that will have you said devolution haven't

Bob Pastorella 1:27:56
read devolution yet. Oh, yeah, I heard it's good though.

Josh Malerman 1:28:00
It's good. And I really like him. He's cool. Like,

Bob Pastorella 1:28:03
Max Yeah, Max broke Yeah, he's Del Rey also

Josh Malerman 1:28:06
and he was I think he says and super smart as you got I mean he's on like Bill Maher show and show like that like super smart dude. And I'm kind of I would be so scared to be on a show like that. I'd be pissing my pants. I wouldn't be on his real time show it because my pants but I could do the his other show that he does where he just gets drunk with the person in the basement. Yes, you know,

Michael David Wilson 1:28:29
I haven't been

Josh Malerman 1:28:36
there and talk politics at the desk. I'd be like, like Yeah, sweat. I'm like, I can't handle this I gotta go having a panic attack.

Michael David Wilson 1:28:44
Yeah, well token of having to go do you have any final thoughts to leave our viewers and listeners with

Josh Malerman 1:28:52
Yes. Um Yes, I do. I do. I wanted to say something about Let's all hope that it's around the house ends up in the UK. And and if and if a publisher doesn't or if it doesn't happen, like sooner or later there there are varieties of getting it out there. Even myself. The little the little outlaw book that isn't really an outline at all. Meaning it's doing really well here and for somehow, I guess I need to I need to address how to get it out over there. So yeah, I'm working on it. That's that's the words. I'm trying to say. I'm working on getting instance around the house out in the UK in Australia. All

Michael David Wilson 1:29:34
right, and in the interim, people can order it off amazon.com As a former co host, Dan Howarth did and proudly sent me a text message to prove it. All right. Thank you again for joining us.

Bob Pastorella 1:29:50
Yes, thank you. All right. I love you guys.

Michael David Wilson 1:29:57
Thank you so much for listening to This Is Horror. Join us again next time when we will be talking to a different Josh, we will be talking to Josh Milliken, who wrote the incredible book teleportation zone which is available right now for is your wave publishing. But if you want to get that conversation and every other conversation I had at a crowd, become our patron patreon.com forward slash Dennis is Hara. You get early bird access to each episode. You can submit questions to each and every writer that appears on This Is Horror. You can get access to story on box the horror podcast on the craft of writing. So go to patreon.com forward slash This Is Horror. See what we offer and if it's a good fit for you, I would love you to join us there. Okay, before I wrap up, a quick advert break.

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Michael David Wilson 1:32:12
you know one way that you can support the podcast completely free of charge is to leave a review over on the Apple podcast site. And I was delighted to get a fantastic review on the Apple America store just a few days ago. And if I'm reading this username correctly, I'm sometimes I'm not. This is a five star review from Mandarin A B. And it says one of the best horror podcasts out there. This Is Horror is one of my favorite podcasts and I look forward to listening every week. The guests saw some of the best horror writers and creators in the industry, as are the hosts who have wonderful, thoughtful conversations that are always riveting and an absolute pleasure to listen to. Honest, meaningful, sincere, nuanced and fascinating my to be read grows every time I listen. Thank you so much for all you do. Michael David Wilson Bob Pastorella and Team Thank you Mandarin AB that absolutely made my day when I read that and this then great endorsement for what we're doing and what we continue to do. So if you have thoughts on This Is Horror please do leave us a review as I read all of them and hopefully I can read yours on the show as well. But until next time with Joshua Millican take care yourselves be good to one another read Hora keep on writing and have a great, great day.