TIH 579: Joshua Millican on Becoming a Parent, Richard Elfman, and Writing Routine

Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to This is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode, alongside my co host, Bob pastorella, we chat with the world's best writers about writing, life, lessons, creativity and much more. Today on this is horror. We are going to be reconvening with Joshua Millikan for the second of a two part conversation, Millikan has proven himself to be a horror expert of the highest caliber. After establishing a personal blog in 2011 he quickly became one of the genre's premier journalists, contributing to many websites, before ultimately landing at dread central in 2016 and Millikan served as editor in chief from 2019 until 2021 his debut novel was deeper than hell, and his latest release, which is available right now via shortwave, is teleportasm. Now, in the first part of the conversation, we did speak a little bit about the early life lessons growing up. We got into teleportasm a little bit, but there's more in this conversation. And we spoke about cannabis culture. So if you want to listen to that one, first, it is 578 but as with every This is horror podcast episode, you can listen in any order. So by all means, listen to this now and then. Go back to 578 when you're done now, before we get into the conversation with Joshua Milliken, a quick advert break house

Bob Pastorella 2:26
of bad memories. The debut novel from Michael David Wilson, comes out on Friday the 13th, this October, via cemetery gates media. Denny just wants to be the world's best dad to his baby daughter, but things get messy when he starts hallucinating his estranged, abusive stepfather, Frank. Then Frank winds up dead, and Denny is held hostage by his junkie hemp sister, who demands he uncovers the cause of her father's death. Will Denny defeat his demons or be perpetually tortured for refusing to answer impossible questions? CLAY McLeod Chapman says, House of bad memories hit so hard you'll spit teeth out once you're done reading it, pre order, House of bad memories by Michael David Wilson and paperback@cemeterygatesmedia.com or an ebook via Amazon,

RJ Bayley 3:10
it was as if the video had unzipped my skin, slunk inside my tapered flesh, and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella 3:19
From the creator of this is horror. Comes a new nightmare for the digital age. The girl in the video by Michael David Wilson, after a teacher receives a weirdly arousing video, his life descends into paranoia and obsession. More videos follow, each containing information no stranger could possibly know, but who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and everyone he loves. The girl in the video is the ring meets fatal attraction for iPhone generation, available now in paperback, ebook and audio. Okay

Michael David Wilson 3:49
with that said, Here it is. It is Joshua Millican for part two on this is horror. So you mentioned that when you became a father, that you left dredge Central and creatively, you've been concentrating more on your writing in terms of fiction. Now I'm wondering how Parenthood has changed you, both creatively and personally. Well, personally,

Joshua Millican 4:21
it's, it's changed me 100% as I think anyone with a kid will say, you know, as prepared as you think you are, there are things that are gonna gonna knock you on your ass, and as much as you anticipate you're gonna love your child, you end up loving them beyond any any level that you thought was possible previously. So you know, everything I do now is for him, and you know, I see the world differently because I'm seeing the world through his eyes. And I. You know, when I think about, you know, what's a good thing to do versus what's a, what's a not so great thing to do? You know, he's always just so high in the decision making process that, you know, it's like, okay, you know, you have some chapters in your life, right? The High School chapter, the college chapter, when you have a kid, it's like a whole new volume in your life begins for me, for me creatively, I think I'm still the same twisted, crazy minded, nutty hippie artist I was before. You know, obviously, you know, there, there are different things that I find horrifying, and I think of things now that I might not have thought of before, but creatively, I think I'm just as crazy as I, as I was or would have been. And, yeah, there you go.

Michael David Wilson 6:01
Yeah. So it sounds like it hasn't shifted your taste too much, but I wonder, if you know horror, where there are children that are harmed, if it's made you more sensitive to it, or if there's I don't know if reluctance to watch would be quite the word, but if it's more trepidation, at least, no, I

Joshua Millican 6:26
mean, the thing is, I don't think I enjoyed that kind of horror to begin with in the first place, you know. And now maybe I can empathize with it more, and maybe it hits harder, you know. But if it's really good horror, I think that came through anyway, you know, like, there's this recent film, don't say a word. They're gonna do an English remake of it is coming out soon. Things like that. You know, things happening to children is just terrible to think about. But yeah, I think that, you know, I'm just as averse to that now as I was then, just because it was never my cup of tea. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 7:04
yeah. I mean, I it would maybe be a kind of caution if someone said things bad happening to children is my cup of tea. But I do. I do often. Yeah, here, like of sensitivity is kind of changing, and like it, it certainly did with me. When I had my daughter, it's like I became even more affected. And you know, it can be a struggle to even watch a film where where it's hinting that something bad could happen to that child. I mean, if somebody said it's a really good horror film, then I will persevere. But it's, it's an very uncomfortable experience, whereas before it was an uncomfortable so now we've got the very kind of amplifier, I suppose, absolutely,

Bob Pastorella 8:00
I think you have to be mindful of it. Now, I that was never my cup of tea either. I couldn't stand to see, you know a children. You know any child hurt or killed in a film reading Pet Cemetery? You know, the first time I ever read Timothy? Yeah, I threw the book across the room, um, when I got to that part, especially because, you know, he leads us through gages life, and then pulls the rug out from underneath you. And I was angry, upset, and but I went back and finished it because, of course, you know the, I guess the diabolical side of me is like, Okay, let's see what the fuck he does. You know, so, but I think a lot of that stuff has to be earned. A prime example, I don't know if you've seen when evil lurks, which is a Argentina film on shutter recently, right, right, yeah, yeah. And there, there is. There is a scene where you wonder if they're going to go there and involve the child. And they do, they do go there. But it, I felt that was, it was earned because of what happens after that. And it's like, you know, in other words, like, Yeah, I'm gonna go there, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make you hate what happened, but also hate, you know, what happens even worse.

Joshua Millican 9:39
Let me ask you guys, knowing full well that by merely merely asking this as kind of a spoiler in and of itself, have you seen the coffee table? No,

Michael David Wilson 9:51
I have not. No, I've

Bob Pastorella 9:52
heard I've heard about it, but I don't know much about it.

Joshua Millican 9:56
Yeah, you can't really reveal. Much about it. You just got to see it. Okay?

Michael David Wilson 10:02
I, I will watch the coffee table. I, I feel, given the context that you have mentioned this, that this is not going to be a happy moment in my day. But I

Joshua Millican 10:14
those, those of your listeners who have seen it, they're like, Yeah, you guys are about to get EFTA. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 10:27
I'll report back

Bob Pastorella 10:30
anytime somebody even says the word coffee table. I'm a big Seinfeld fan, and I just remember Kramer's coffee table book, and I'm just like, yeah, it's a coffee table book. That's a coffee table Yeah? But, uh, anytime I just like, you want, is that what it's about this movie? Yeah, I

Michael David Wilson 10:53
don't think it's gonna be.

Well, moving on from the coffee table, what is the biggest light bulb moment that you've experienced in your writing life thus far, or what is something that has made you a better writer?

Joshua Millican 11:19
Oh, jeez, what has been a big aha moment, I guess, you know, I talked in the first half about, you know, the experience of working with Alan, you know, I guess the big aha moment for me was that when someone offers you input, take that as a challenge in a positive way, and even if you disagree with the input, that doesn't mean you can't still look at the passage or the issue and make your work even better, because in addition to Alan, we had BETA readers, you know, and sensitivity readers, and you know, I got a lot of input. And even if there were times when someone said something that I disagreed with, even if they said something like, Oh, something about this just kind of bugs, rubs me the wrong way, maybe I didn't agree with them. Maybe I thought it was just fine. Or maybe I thought, you know, they were missing the point. But at the same time, if there was, if there was any sort of snag, I could, at the very least look at it and say, Is there a way, objectively, that I can make this better? And I guess that was kind of an aha moment, you know. From here on out, I don't think I'll ever be afraid of criticism. I think I'll look at it as a challenge, you know. And of course, it depends on who's saying it. I'm lucky that, you know, I've gotten input from people whose opinions I, you know, care very much for. But yeah, you know, if someone says especially about a work in progress, I am up for that kind of challenge. And if someone's willing to engage with my work at a point where it's going to be published, but there's still time to influence the final the final product, I'm all for it. So I guess you know, the big aha moment for me is that criticism is a gift.

Michael David Wilson 13:20
Yeah. And in terms of criticism and feedback, I mean, how closely do you pay attention to reviews of your work? And then I mean, how do you process the comments? Because, of course, you know, we're going to get, hopefully glowing reviews of our work, and we're probably going to get scathing reviews too.

Joshua Millican 13:44
Yeah, I'm really lucky that it's been so well received so far. It's still like a 4.25 on Goodreads. And, you know, that's just, I'm so proud of that. You know, there was a review where, you know, wasn't a five or four star review, but I was very appreciative of it, because the reviewer at least acknowledged that while it wasn't their cup of tea, someone else might like it. They said, You know, this was something that, you know, I didn't love about it, but that actually might be a selling point to someone else who's coming at it, expecting that or hoping for that kind of thing. So I really appreciate it. The one really terrible review I've gotten so far, the reviewer says, like, they're never gonna read indie publishing again. You know, it was like, Oh, this was so terrible. I'm giving up on on indie publishers. What did I expect from from an indie never again? You know, it's like, wow. You know, indie publishing, and every indie author on the planet just just lost a potential reader, because me, you know, and obviously that eats away at me. No, it doesn't,

Michael David Wilson 14:48
well, a stupid reaction

Bob Pastorella 14:53
indie horror, it has been, and will continue to be, where horror is at, and it's been that. Way for are going on 20 fucking years. Yeah, you know, and, and the big the big five or Big Four, whatever you call them, they're back into it now, because it's popular again, because, you know, the wave is come back up, but when it goes back down, indie horror is still going to be there, still going to be kicking ass, because that's that's what it's been doing. That's what it does. Yep, I guess just gonna miss out on some of the best horror ever written. So Well, I

Joshua Millican 15:30
do feel like I owe every indie publisher and indie writer an apology, though, that I deprive them of this potential reader.

Michael David Wilson 15:39
I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, they sound like a very valid reader. So I'm greatly upset that they won't be reading any of my work that is independently put out. They sound very rational human being as well. Never mind. But in terms of your writing. What does your writing routine look like? And what is a typical day like for you?

Joshua Millican 16:08
You know, I have like an ideal writing situation, which would be, you know, having, you know, two and a half to four hours in the morning, you know, waking up and having some coffee and getting right to it and then maybe getting back to it around nine o'clock and working into the small hours of the morning. You know, that's ideal. You know, that's time permitting. Doesn't always work out that way when you have a family and jobs and things like that. So I'm lucky in that I can write anywhere, you know, when you're a journalist and you're covering film festivals and things like that, you're writing from hotel rooms, you're writing from bars, you're writing from airports. So, you know, I learned to, you know, put those blinders on and just kind of get to it. And especially if I'm in a project that has, you know, a release date or something, I can get, if necessary, I can get very focused wherever I am at any time, I do pretty much immerse myself, you know, when I'm when I'm working on a book that has a publication date, you know, I think many writers do, you know, and it's a strain that we put on our families in a lot of ways. And you know, we're so lucky that those who love us endure these times when we kind of like, you know, go into another realm with our creative projects. But yeah, you know, I'd love to start the day writing with a big cup of coffee and and the day writing with a big joint. And that's, that's my ideal

Michael David Wilson 17:43
and so typically, if you're starting a session at 9pm is that after, you know, you said you've got a day job, or do you have multiple jobs? What does the day job situation look like? Well,

Joshua Millican 17:58
you know, again, this is the ideal thing right now my day job is raising my son, you know, and writing books. You know, there have been times before this, you know, where I had a day job that, you know, would have limited, you know, the amount of time I could have invested in it. You know, when I was working on telepass, teleport ASM, for example. Yeah, you know, my wife and I would alternate days, and like, you know, she'd allow me work days where I could spend a morning, two and a half, three, four hours focused on, on just writing. And then, you know, part of the reason, you know, I've always been kind of a night person on the creative side of things. You know, nights, I feel like my brain works in a different way at night when the sun goes down. And luckily, you know, my son's usually asleep by nine o'clock, so you know it all just works out perfectly. The hard part then becomes waking up at 630 in the morning when he wakes up the next day. But that's another story.

Michael David Wilson 18:57
Yeah, yeah, I tend to find with children, it can be increasingly difficult to get up before they get up to write and Well, for me to get up to write before they get up, I'm not saying every child I have will start the day writing that that would be pretty cool.

Joshua Millican 19:19
Both artists, we both work at home, so we're really lucky. And, yeah, hopefully I've made the most of this time in my life. Because, you know, frankly, I am looking for more work, you know, as I wait for, you know, my next project and royalties to roll in, and, you know, studios to express interest in producing it, knock on wood, you know. And you know, I don't know that I'll have as much time in the future. So, you know, I'm really lucky to have had a supportive family who, you know, allowed me these ideal working conditions. And you know, I'm really just proud of teleportatism, you know. The work that I did on it, the way that Alan was such an integral part of the process, and this is really good time. I can only hope that I'll be lucky enough to be able to approach my next project with the same amount of support and focus, right?

Michael David Wilson 20:14
And in terms of movies and writing, I mean, my understanding is that you've written a number of novelizations, including forbidden zone. So I want to talk a bit about the novelizations, if there are any upcoming ones, and how you kind of approach that, how the mindset creatively is different. Sure,

Joshua Millican 20:41
I'd love to talk about that, because it's a such a fun and unique endeavor. You know, in cycl apocalypse, the publisher who picked up deeper than hell, like I mentioned before, they kind of began as a publisher of novelizations. So as I got to know them, as a publisher and the people who run it, I became very interested in novelizations. You know, as a film fan, I love the idea of bringing film into the world of literature. And I had never been into film novelizations or collected film novelizations, but it's so immediately fascinating, you know. And then when I met these guys and saw them at conventions and saw all these novelizations laid on at the table and how scintillating they were to collectors, I was like, I really want to get in on this. And you know, the process of novelizations, you know, the mechanics of it can be, can be complex and difficult, but I was able to get the rights for forbidden zone because I'm actually friends with Richard Elfman. So I thought, how cool would it be to write a novelization of forbidden zone, and, you know, be part of that film's crazy legacy. So I introduced Richard to the guys in encyclopeds, and it was, it was a good fit for all of us. And it turns out, Richard also has a few novelizations. And, you know, encyclopedias recently published his first novella, the the Shlomo supreme, that's a whole other story. Talk about that and Richard Elfman until I'm blue in the face. But you know, I basically came into this world of novelizations, and I kind of made an opportunity for myself through my friendship with Richard Elfman. Similarly, I've leveraged my friendship with Billy pond, a filmmaker from Texas. I don't know if you're familiar with him, Bob. He's the writer director of circus of the dead, which came out almost 10 years ago, and

Bob Pastorella 22:52
I'm part of the film, but unfortunately, I haven't seen it right

Joshua Millican 22:56
after you, right after you watch coffee table, go watch circus of the dead. It's on TV, but it's a great film with a great crew of sadistic killer clowns, and it's really become a cult sensation, especially in Texas. It has kind of this Southwestern, localized fandom that is incredibly engaged. So there's already a lot of buzz about the circus of the dead novelization, which will be coming out this November. That's my next project, and writing that was incredible. So you know, when I wrote the novelization for Forbidden Zone, there was no screenplay, because one never really exists. Forbidden Zone is a musical, surrealist, improvised, Lightning in a Bottle experimental film, circus of the dead. On the other hand, had a screenplay. Not only did it have a screenplay, there were scenes in the screenplay that never made it into the film. So whereas with Forbidden Zone, I basically was, was almost like a transcriber of the film circus of the dead. I actually got to bust the film open and include these things that had never been included before. And it was so awesome. And the best thing about novelizations in terms of, you know, Why would, why would a writer even want to do that? And, you know, what can a novelization add that a film, you know, that you wouldn't get from watching the film, the one thing a novelization can do with ease, that a film can never do with ease, is get inside a character's head, you know, without some heavy handed narration or relying purely on facial expressions, You can hear what the characters thinking as the monsters running towards them, as the blade enters the body, as you know, the terror, terrible realization dawns on them. And it's amazing to when you make an official novelization, you are part of that film's canon. So I'm putting. Adding words and thoughts into these characters, minds and mouths. And it is incredible. You know, even though I have no ownership over this intellectual property, having been able to contribute to it is really awesome for me personally. So, you know, I don't know what my next novelization will be. Hopefully it'll be the same sort of thing where I can be attracted to a film or a filmmaker, and circumstance will bring something like this to my door. I don't know if it'll happen or not, but I'm very open to it, and I hope people will be interested in checking out the circus of the dead in November,

Michael David Wilson 25:41
you said that there's a whole other story about your friendship with Richard Elfman and with, you know, working with him. So as you can anticipate, I want to know, you know, how did you first connect? And tell us as much as you can about all of that. Yeah,

Joshua Millican 26:00
I could seriously talk for hours about it. Richard off man contributed a an editorial to dread Central, and he was a real big fan of the site. So when a few members of dread central were in Los Angeles covering the e3 conference, you know, back before the pandemic, he had us up to his house. Now, those of your listeners might have heard the name Richard off man. He is Danny off man's big brother. He's most famous as the creator of the mystic knights of the Oingo Boingo, which became the band Oingo Boingo, which launched Danny elfman's career. He's also known as the writer director of forbidden zone, which is this cult film that came out in 1980 and there's absolutely nothing like it. Richard is more recently famous as being a gourmet chef and someone who can throw an amazing party. Let me tell you something. If you ever get invited to a Richard Elfman party and you say, No, you have missed out on an event of a lifetime. The man throws the best parties. He makes the best food. You know, after you eat, his musician friends come out of the woodwork, and he's doing this Afro Cuban drumming with a full band around him, an amazing vocalist, then his beautiful wife, Anastasia, comes out covered in balloons that she pops away until she's just wearing a lingerie, and then she vomits blood all over. It's just nuts. Man, they'll give you an alcoholic beverage that'll literally have smoke coming out the top of it, man, how could you not instantly fall in love with a guy like that? So, you know, we kept in touch, and we would meet from time to time, and we would talk from time to time. And even before we worked together on Forbidden Zone, the novelization, I had approached him with the idea of being his biographer and writing basically, you know, the definitive Richard Elfman story. And I have so many hours of recorded footage, and I can't wait to have the perfect opportunity to put it all together, along with some incredible interviews that I've compiled, it's going to be a humongous project, because the man has lived an extraordinary life. I mean, even you don't have to know who he is when you read these stories, just knowing that a human lived this life will be astonishing to many people. So eventually there will be the definitive Richard Elfman biography. The hard part about it is that his story is still being told. He might be closing in on 80 but he just released another film, his fifth, and he's hoping to release more films, including a sequel or a reboot of forbidden zone. So you know, for the time, I'm very lucky to be a satellite in his orbit documenting his accomplishments. And you know, being close enough to him that I can actually reach out with an email or a telephone call or a text, and he has been amazingly supportive of me, my career, my projects, and you know right now he's also doing some amazing stuff with he's working on a an animated series that's just gonna blow people's minds. So yeah, that's, that's me and Richard Elfman. And you know, as I think about an eventual biography of this, you know, cult figure of this highly influential artist. You know, even if you don't think you've been directly influenced by him, if you're a musician, you know, influenced by the LA scene of the 80s, you probably. We were influenced by Richard off man, and you just don't know it. I really think that, you know, in the meantime, what I'd like to do is kind of write a shorter, creative nonfiction account of just the mystic nights of the Oingo Boingo years and the production and release of forbidden zone. I think that decade, basically, you know, talking, you know, the 70s, you know, 1969 to 1980 was just an incredibly creative and explosive chapter of his life that I would just love to kind of encapsulize in and of itself and release that you know as a novella or a novel. And to that end, if there are any agents or publishers out there hearing any of this who would like to talk more about Richard off man related literary projects, please do,

Michael David Wilson 30:58
yeah. I mean, it sounds like there's an awful lot going on in terms of that biography. And, I mean, you said you've got like, kind of hours of interviews. Have you started writing up any of it or sample chapters? Are there any publishers that you have spoken to. I mean, this sounds like a great project. It sounds like there should be, in theory, a lot of people interested. And it's like, man, if you haven't approached agents or publishers, now is the time? Yeah,

Joshua Millican 31:38
I love hearing you say that, because, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm an up and comer, you know, I don't have an establish, a really large, established name for myself yet. So I'm always gonna, you know, publishers and agents, I think are always gonna feel like they're taking a chance on me. Maybe things will change, you know, with teleport tasm, you know, with, you know, me, appearing on a wonderful podcast like this one, maybe someone interested will finally get in touch with me. But I tell you the one agent that I contacted for it. I'm not going to say who they are, but I will say they're on on the East Coast, and maybe that has something to do with it. I pitched them similarly to how I'm pitching you guys. And the very first question this agent asked me was, what social media influencers will support it? And I couldn't even respond to that, you know? And it's like, I understand that social media is an important aspect of marketing in the 21st century, and I'm not opposed to it, but either this person didn't understand what I was offering. Maybe, you know, Richard off man, and this kind of story, you know, doesn't have the same kind of resonance, resonance with someone on the east coast where, you know, this culture was never really kind of made it out there. It has kind of like a geographical, you know, connection, you know, maybe that was why this agent didn't like it, but I was frankly offended that the very first question they asked was, What influencers are gonna support this book? Not you know, this sounds interesting that you know, I mean, at least wait till the second or third email to ask me that freaking question. But obviously, if someone's gonna ask me that question, first, they don't really know what I'm offering them. And you know, when I didn't reply, this agent never said, you know, oh, I'm still interested in hearing, you know, it sounds like you have a great project now. So the one agent who seemed initially interested just completely rubbed me the wrong way with that one question. And I don't really want to work with someone who can't see the value of what I'm offering in and of itself. And of course, I hope social media influencers will support it. Of course, I'll do everything possible to get it into those hands. And I think that those people are doing great things for getting the word out on new things, just don't ask me that question first.

Michael David Wilson 34:04
Yeah, it's like, oh, sorry, I must have got the wrong email. I know I was talking to someone who gave a shit about art and literature. My bad. Yeah,

Bob Pastorella 34:15
it sounds like to me it's just like putting the cart in front of the horse and, you know, it's like to the most important thing is the story, you know, and it's like, Well, how am I going to market it? Do you even want the story, man, right now, I mean, I mean, we, if a story like this will literally market itself, you know, all you'd have to do is strategically put it into right hands after you have a finished product. So let's not put cart in front of the horse,

Joshua Millican 34:46
right, right? So yeah. I mean, you know, I really appreciate you guys. You run such an incredible podcast. You talk to such amazing people. You know your listeners love what they see. You know, I read the comments, so yeah, you know, I love the fact that you guys have invited me on, and maybe an agent or publisher will actually give me a buzz. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 35:10
I know that we have a number of influential people to listen. So, I mean, yeah, it'd be great if you could get in contact with you. I mean, I yeah, I hope that you know, because you've got the friendship with him. Obviously, one would hope someone else isn't going to sweep in and try and take this book from you, but yeah, that that's kind of why I'm like, Man, you need the publishing agreement or the agent we because you don't want to put all that work in, and then somebody takes it away from you. But then, equally, because Richard is your friend, he's probably not going to let that happen anyway.

Joshua Millican 35:50
Thankfully, he and I have a gentleman's understanding in terms of, you know, the fact that I am his guy when it comes to a biographer, and he knows that, you know, I will show my appreciation accordingly when it comes to working out any rights and royalties when it comes to published works based on the information he so graciously provided me.

Michael David Wilson 36:14
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I understand why the alien asked the question. Because for some people, it is all about the money. That's all it is about. So at least they were transparent enough to say that to begin with. So you knew, you know not to waste your time with them. Yeah, obviously money is great, but it's like, let's look at the artistic vision to begin with. Let's get that right. And then step two is, how can we maximize this in terms of a business, in terms of profit? But I mean the whole question as well, like, who are the social media influencers that will promote this? It it's weird on so many levels. Because firstly, it's like, well, you're gonna have to define what do you mean by social media influencer? Because do you mean somebody with a relatively big following within horror? If so, define what is relatively big to you. Do you mean in terms of just the world in general. So we're looking at over a million followers, because then that's gonna change, you know, the dynamic, and who meets that definition, but, but then also, it's like, well, the honest answer is, I, I don't bloody know I'm talking to you. Before we've even got the book. This is so many steps ahead, and actually, with a lot of so called influencers, I kind of hate the term, but I know what people are getting at, but you can't really predict who is going to post about something, because it just happens that they get a copy of the book and then they decide they want to talk about it, but I don't know, it's like, Well, you tell me the lottery numbers for this week, and I'll tell you the influencer, because we've got about as much chance of getting it right.

Joshua Millican 38:16
It's great to hear you say that. Yeah, I really appreciate it. And you know, I think it would be different if I was just pitching a work of complete fiction as well, because, you know, that can be so subjective. But yeah, and again, maybe it's an East Coast, West Coast thing for this person to not to seemingly not understand that what I was offering was culturally valuable, that there was inherent value to this book being released because this information doesn't exist, and because there is a population that would definitely want to know this. So you know, the fact that there seemed to be no understanding that there was a built in audience because of the subject was just so crazy to me.

Michael David Wilson 39:01
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's one agent. It's one bad experience. I don't think this is going to be the reaction of everyone

Joshua Millican 39:12
I said before that. I'm the kind of guy who likes to just let things flow organically, you know. And, you know, yeah, I haven't been doing my due diligence in terms of knocking on doors and getting in front of agents and trying really hard to, you know, be seen. I am kind of waiting for the right time and the right people to approach me. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that teleport hasms coming out now I'm getting, you know, some of the best reviews of my career. It's holding up well with the other books in the in the series and the franchise there, there are so many other great books that are that are going to follow in this series. I just think that I'm riding a wave. And, you know, I'm I have a higher profile now than I did when I spoke to that agent a year ago or so. So hopefully now will be the right time.

Michael David Wilson 40:02
Yeah, yeah. And we've ever released that profile, it gets higher. It keeps getting higher. And yeah, I mean, you you've got the pitch nailed down already. I'd make sure that I have a sample chapter or two. And then when you pick someone or they pitch you, well, you know, you've got it. You've got your Richard Elfman start a pack. They can have a look at it. And you asked

Joshua Millican 40:27
about sample chapters and how much I've written out. I do have sample chapters. I have kind of like an introduction that explains, you know, my place in Richard's life and how this situation came about. But just the transcriptions are, I'm sure they're over 150,000 words, and that's just because I transcribed everything. But it's still such an incredible wellspring. And that doesn't include the supporting interviews, which, you know, some of these interviews went on for an hour and a half, and are you when I transcribed are going to be four or 5000 words in and of themselves. So there is so much information, you know, out there, and most of it is still in its raw form. But, you know, just like teleport tasm started out as something bigger and I whittled it down, I'm absolutely ready to jump into an elf man project, you know, and jump into this sandbox with all of this sand I've shoveled in here and really start building my sandcastles out of it, and release something really good. I think a Richard off man biography is something that's gonna come down the line. I still think the time would be right, and there would be a I would love to release, sort of the story of Richard's life in the 1970s and I hope that comes to fruition. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 41:42
yeah. Oh, we hope so too, and we'll certainly be reading it, and we'll be talking to you about it if you want to come on again. So yeah, thank you. But, I mean, I wonder what is the wildest or the hardest to believe Richard Elfman story that you have. Yeah,

Joshua Millican 42:04
I'll tell you one. You know, before Richard Elfman started mystic knights of the Oingo boyingo, which was a theater trip that eventually became a band fronted by Danny Elfman, he learned his chops in France working for Jerome Savoy, who's a famous theater director in a troupe that called itself the grand magic circus. And we really don't have anything like it in America. I guess you kind of think it is like a live action Kids in the Hall sort of thing, where it was comedy, but it was also dance and music and things like that. So this is really where Richard Elfman had his artistic education, you know, in terms of what would creating a vision that would lead to the mystic knights of the oinga buena. So they were getting really big in France, and there they were touring Europe, and they had an opportunity to bring their show out to Iran. And I think it was, it was the same year and situation, political situation, as that movie, Fargo or Argo, excuse me not, Fargo Argo with Ben Affleck. You know, I think it's 1979 or something, and the Shaw is about to sweep in or get something crazy is about to happen, right? And this kind of show that Richard off man and the grand magic circus are doing has elements of sexuality, and, you know, boobs, for lack of a better term, and these things were becoming not just taboo, but potentially life ending. You know, there was a clamp down on on everything that wasn't extremely conservative. You know, happening while Richard and his company were, were in Iran to do a show at a university. So first they almost started a riot just by, you know, going out to some, you know, open air, square inch ran and playing the drums and doing some street busking sort of thing, because it was just blowing people's minds. Then they did do a show at the university, and at 1.1 of the actresses in the company actually did flash her breasts, and it caused a real uproar where a lot of people actually started rushing the stage. So after this happens, Richard and his girlfriend at the time, got approached by a couple students, a couple men, and they said, you know, great show tonight. Would you guys like to come out to a nightclub with us? You know, have a few drinks. And Richard and his girlfriend said, Sure, that sounds fine. So they get into a car with these guys, and they start driving kind of out of town, and then they start driving kind of into the desert, and Richard really just starts getting a really bad vibe, you know, I think the the mood shifted, and, you know, it's kind of like when you know something, you know something, and, you know. They stopped the car at one point, and they got out on the side of the road, and they just started talking, and then they got back into the car, and then they told Richard and his girlfriend, who were in the backseat, oh, we're gonna go to a friend's house first. You know, just hang on. Richard knew some shit was going down. Basically, they'd been kidnapped. These two students were both connected to the ruling military factions, and they were absolutely intent on making these performers pay for their obscene spectacle. How? I don't know. Richard doesn't know, because, thankfully, it never came to that Richard was behind the driver, and when he just knew without a doubt what was happening, he grabbed that man from behind his neck. He said, You're gonna take us back to the university right now, or this is it for you. You know you're not gonna walk again. You know, tell your buddy in the passenger seat to be cool and not do anything, and take us the F back to the university right now? And they did. And you know, it's amazing to think that if he hadn't had that intuition, that confidence and that brute strength, because he's a big man, his life could have very easily ended on that night. And what's so amazing about that night in this particular story is that there are probably 10 times Richard Elfman could have died before 1980 you know, that's a great story that I just told you. I got 10 more just like it, publishers, agents, let's talk. You

Michael David Wilson 46:40
just sold the book. Yeah, you just sold the fucking book that. Yes, thank you. Oh, my God. I don't even know what to say. I asked you for a crazy Richard Elfman story, and you delivered.

Bob Pastorella 46:57
Yeah. I'm like, I'm speechless, which is rare, but I mean, what a harrowing experience. And to know that, because you gotta you come a point sometimes when you realize you're in a bad situation, but you're gonna get out of it, it's like, Man, I'm in a bad, bad spot here. Man, I don't know what I'm gonna do, and it could be life or death. And to have that, that gumption that I'm getting out of this, and I, you know, I always, I like to say I'm not scared of shit, but that that kind of stuff scares me to death. Well, sure, I would. I would panic. I would probably fucking panic in a plane of dead. Wow,

Michael David Wilson 47:46
it's the kind of amazing story where it's very difficult to know, how the hell do we segue to something else? But I'm gonna try, because we're talking about, you know, a scary experience for Richard Elfman, so I want to know, what is it that frightens you?

Joshua Millican 48:06
What is it that frightens Josh Millikin, I guess it depends on where I am and what's going on. I mean, I don't want to say I'm fearless, but it's kind of like I don't really know. I mean, if I looked out the window and saw a tidal wave coming towards me, I'd be terrified. But it's not like I sit around worrying about being swallowed up by the oceans. It's interesting, because I don't believe in ghosts or demons or things like that, but I've always said that, you know, if you put me in an abandoned mental asylum, you know, in the middle of the forest, you know, and told me to stay there overnight, I would be out of my mind with fear. I don't think I'd be able to do it, you know. So it really depends on the situation, you know, I've, I mean, I think the most scared I've ever been was when I went skydiving. And I've gone skydiving twice, and the first time I wasn't scared, and I had a great time. And the second time, for some reason, I just got a really, really bad feeling, and I came really close to, you know, aborting the jump, to just putting my hand on the door and saying, No, I'm not gonna go, just because I had this feeling that was probably the most terrified I've ever been. Obviously, I survived. You know, when I landed, nothing went wrong. But when we landed and I got unstrapped from the tandem, you know, I puked my guts out. You know, something came over me in that moment. But you can kind of understand that. I mean, jumping out of an airplane is kind of, you have to put your primal instincts on tap. You know, you're not supposed to jump off of heights. We're humans. We're not birds. So yeah, of course, that would be extremely terrifying. But I don't know if it was a premonition that I had or just something about that day, but I had never been more scared. Weird than I was in that moment.

Michael David Wilson 50:01
I'm very glad that nothing bad happened from the skydiving. But if there was a third situation where you could skydive, would you now absolutely refuse? It's like, look, I got the premonition. Nothing bad happened that time, but it could be a warning for the third so no to skydiving in

Joshua Millican 50:25
any situation. Yeah, in any situation. But, you know, I think that's cemented by, you know, the fact that I'm a father now. And you asked, you know, how has your life changed since you became a father? Well, he factors into that now too. And there's no thrill that would be worth potentially, you know, leaving, uh, leaving my little guy. So, you know, it's just, it's just not going to happen.

Michael David Wilson 50:48
Yeah, yeah. And you said that you don't believe in the supernatural. You don't believe in demons or anything like that, but you would be very scared to stay in a abandoned men or asylum in the middle of the forest?

Joshua Millican 51:04
Absolutely. I mean, just thinking about it right now is kind of making me a little anxious, you know, I feel a little pressure on my chest, but, uh, yeah, I think it's all situational, you know, right now, talking about it, I'm in thinking about things rationally. It's like, No, you know, I don't have many fears. But no, no, it's, it's, you know, it's the situation, it's the dark alley, it's the knock at the door in the middle of the night. You know that it's a it's something that you don't suspect. That's what scares me.

Michael David Wilson 51:35
Yeah, do you think there's a small part of you that, if not, does believe, then feels, what if, and maybe again, being a parent is like, Well, I'm not gonna risk it,

Joshua Millican 51:50
you know, I believe that there, there are a lot of scientific explanations for things that are now classified as paranormal. I think there could be energy imprints. I think, you know, things like that seem absolutely plausible to me within this physical universe. So, you know, I do, you know, I'm willing to stretch it to a certain extent. You know, at the same I have friends who swear to me that they've interacted with ghosts and whatever, I believe it was real to them, and sometimes just hearing their stories is enough to rattle me. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 52:34
what's the most disquieting experience you've had? Again?

Joshua Millican 52:39
I think it's just a story that my friend told me, and it's, it's, it's weird, because it's almost like a story within a story. And it's just that he so thoroughly believed it that I believe it. You know, my friend Milo, tells me the story that he's at a party. And, you know, he comes on in, and this woman says to him, hey, Milo, will you go look in the bedroom and tell me whether or not you see an old lady in there? And he's like, Well, that's kind of weird. You know, what would an old lady be doing at a party? But he goes and he looks, and sure enough, there's an old lady in there, and she is not on our exact plane, perhaps, perhaps not even really aware of him, but she's there, and he goes back, and he tells this other woman, oh yeah, I see the old lady in there. And there's something so chilling about that story, almost because, you know, it's so far removed. It's like, well, my friend said it's my friend said, because my friend was asked, you know, it gets removed a third time, and that somehow legitimizes it even more. And I tell you what, when he told me that story, I had trouble falling asleep that night. I had trouble falling asleep that night, just the fact that he had such a valid and convincing story about a supernatural encounter.

Michael David Wilson 54:09
Yeah, I think what can be frightening is kind of things or people in places where they shouldn't be exactly they shouldn't be like that, yeah, right.

Joshua Millican 54:21
Like, when you're in the forest, you're prepared for a bear to come out at you, but what if some little girl comes walking out in a, you know, communion dress, you're gonna be like, now, that's scary, right?

Michael David Wilson 54:31
Yeah, I think this is where kind of horror comes from. It is the the unexpected in, yeah, not, not just the unknown, but, like, I say it's wrong. There is something wrong with this situation, yeah, which I think does tie us back to teleportasm, because it's about, you know, people watching this, VHS, taking a drug of. Support and then being transported to a place where they shouldn't be. Perhaps part of them are transported and not others. Perhaps they're mixed up. I don't know. You'd have to read the book to find

Joshua Millican 55:10
out. Read telephortazm,

Michael David Wilson 55:13
well, what is some advice that you would give to your 18 year old self? Or what would you say to your 18 year old self,

Joshua Millican 55:22
yeah. On the one hand, I wish I could tell him like, Hey, don't waste time. You know, you you want to be able to write 50 books in your lifetime, so get down to it. On the other hand, I kind of wish I had told him like, don't worry. If you don't, you know, make it by the time you're 25 or 30 or 35 you know, like, just believe in yourself. Just keep doing what you're doing. It was almost more important to know in my heart that what I was doing was valid than to have any external, you know, verbal support in that sense. You know, it wasn't so much about being told and encouraged by anyone else. Oh, you're a great writer. Oh, just keep doing it, Josh. I just know in my heart that, you know, if I wanted to bank on me and producing the best output possible, that this was not a waste of time, you know, just keep doing it. Keep doing it. 18 year old, Josh, because you know, when everything comes together, hopefully it'll pay off, you know. And I'm still hoping, you know, yeah, I wouldn't change a thing. You know, I have a beautiful family, I have a wonderful life. I truly blessed. But at the same time, you know, I'm still putting my faith out there that, you know, things will happen down the line if I continue believing that what I'm doing has value and deserves to be shared.

Michael David Wilson 56:49
Well, I think the great thing about creating art and particularly writing, and we've certainly touched on this before, is that it is a lung game, and there isn't really an age where it's like, oh, now you're too old to write the best selling novel, or to write the successful novel. There is never an age. There are a lot of people, you know, in their 60s, in their 70s, that it's like, that's when they write the breakthrough. I mean, if we're talking about professional sport, you know, when you get to a certain age, if you're not at a certain level, it's like, Well, that isn't something you can do, but it's not the case with writing. Go, oh, so I think exactly.

Joshua Millican 57:31
And to, just to give you another Richard Elfman example, his mom, Blossom Elfman was a teacher, and she wrote 16 novels after she retired, two of which were adapted into film. She won Emmys in her 60s and 70s.

Bob Pastorella 57:47
There you go. That's like all the encouragement that you need, you know, I mean, I'm 57 uh, I've got, you know, short stories out. I've got two books out, one I've written with Michael. I do have something coming out next year. I'm just getting warmed up. I'm just getting warmed up. The thing you need to be young at heart, take care of yourself and be open to new ideas and new experiences. And don't, don't, you know, pull the blinders. Pull the blinders back so you can experience the world, because there's a whole world out there. And you I see people my age are younger that have not done any of the things. And the number one thing is that they have not been young at heart. And they are, they're, they're, they look elderly. And I hate saying it like that, but they do. And it's, it's, it's sad, because they could have, they could have done something. And I think that, you know, I don't, I don't feel my age. But then again, I don't know how to act at 57 I've never been this old before. I don't know.

Joshua Millican 58:59
I think you say great, young at heart, you know, I feel young at heart, you know. And it's funny, because I was talking to Alan, you know, from shortwave, who I keep talking about, and I mentioned something about how, like, you know, how you know I'm older than him, and he's like, No way you're older than me, you know, I'm 41 and I am older than him, but he the fact that he thinks there's no way I'm older than him. It's because, like you just said, I'm young at heart, so I give off the aura of a writer who's still in his 30s.

Michael David Wilson 59:29
What personal philosophies or rules of life do you have?

Joshua Millican 59:34
I mean, don't be an asshole or sorry, don't be an a hole. You know, I think it really is that easy. You know, there's a lot of crazy stuff going down right now. You know, in this country and other countries, everyone's, you know, feeling really pressed upon. And I think, you know, everyone needs to just try to be kinder to not. Only the people in their lives, but even people they don't know. I think that things would be a lot better if things were kinder. And you know, in my darkest times, I worry that, you know, we're at a precipice of history, you know, standing over an abyss. I really do think that, uh, kindness and humanity is just so important. And you know, if you, if you think you hate someone, maybe you just need to meet them. You know, if, if you feel like you're you're at a point where, you know, there's nothing left to do except, you know, pick up a gun. You know, maybe you can just pull back and remember, remember what it's like to feel good about, you know, something besides what we're seeing on TV or, you know what the internet and media is just a really, really intrusive influence, you know, nowadays, where you're just Trying to feel connected and you're being bombarded with information, you know, everything's becoming so polarized. Just remember your humanity and you know, be kind,

Michael David Wilson 1:01:11
yeah, yeah, that's it. And the media and social media, I mean, they reward they encourage division, they encourage arguments, fights, conflicts, rather than looking at, you know, what's the commonalities that we have? What is it that makes us human? And, you know, I don't think anyone got less extreme in their ideas or less radicalized because somebody got really confrontational, so maybe look for what is the common point, and then you might be able to work on, you know, the weaknesses, the perceived weaknesses, of that individual. I know the algorithm doesn't reward that. Nope. Well, thank you so much for talking to us for the majority of your evening. And you know,

Joshua Millican 1:02:03
Bob, Michael, it's been my absolute pleasure. You know, like I said, you know, looking into your show, this really is a highlight of my creative career so far. And I'm just really thankful that you guys appreciated my work and that you didn't just want to talk to me for 20 minutes or half an hour that you really wanted to get in depth. I think a lot more people are going to know who I am now because of you guys. And I'm very grateful thank you

Michael David Wilson 1:02:32
now, well, thank you, and there are going to be a great deal of highlights of your career, including the Richard Elfman book, which will absolutely happen. I'm I'm certain that it will also just keep working on it, believe in it, because it's gonna happen and we're gonna be here to read it. Thank you. All right. Do you have anywhere that our listeners can connect with? You absolutely

Joshua Millican 1:03:01
hit me up on Twitter at Josh underscore Milliken, and on Instagram at Joshua, underscore Milliken. I'll keep you up to date on everything. All

Michael David Wilson 1:03:11
right, what final thoughts do you have to leave our listeners and viewers with?

Joshua Millican 1:03:18
That's something I said in teleport tasm. At the end of teleport tasm, just remember your friends and try not to let things that don't matter get in the way of wonderful relationships. Sometimes you need these friendships from your youth to know how far you've come.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:39
Thank you for listening to this is horror with Joshua Milliken join us again next time when we will be talking to Sandy King Carpenter, the founder of Storm King comics and Storm King productions, the wife of John Carpenter. She has worked on many classic films, including they live Village of the Damned Prince of Darkness and John Carpenter's vampires. And that is an episode where you might want to watch the video too, because in the background, if you look close enough, you may get sighting of Master of horror, John Carpenter, but it's a fascinating conversation. Sandy is a wonderful woman, a wonderful master of horror. And if you want to see that, if you want to listen to that ahead of the crowd, just become our patreon@patreon.com forward slash. This is horror. Okay, before I wrap up, a quick advert break, it

RJ Bayley 1:04:50
was as if the video had unzipped my skin, slunk inside my tapered flesh, and become one with me

Bob Pastorella 1:04:58
from the creator of the. Horror comes a new nightmare for the digital age. The girl in the video by Michael David Wilson, after a teacher receives a weirdly arousing video, his life descends into paranoia and obsession. More videos follow, each containing information no stranger could possibly know, but who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and everyone he loves. The girl in the video is the ring meets fatal attraction for the iPhone generation, available now in paperback, ebook and audio. House of bad memories, the debut novel from Michael David Wilson, comes out on Friday the 13th this October, via cemetery gates media. Denny just wants to be the world's best dad to his baby daughter, but things get messy when he starts hallucinating his estranged abusive stepfather, Frank. Then Frank winds up dead, and Denny is held hostage by his junkie hemp sister, who demands he uncovers the cause of her father's death. Will Denny defeat his demons or be perpetually tortured for refusing to answer impossible questions? CLAY McCloud Chapman says, House of bad memories hit so hard you'll spit teeth out once you're done reading it. Pre order, House of bad memories by Michael David Wilson and paperback@cemeterygatesmedia.com or an ebook via Amazon.

Michael David Wilson 1:06:12
One thing Bob and I love is getting feedback from you listeners and getting reviews and over on the Apple podcast app, we have received a new review from w matimo, and it says, inspiring and instructive is no mean feat to simultaneously teach and entertain. Yet this podcast does just that. The hosts are geniuses at lining up fascinating writers and asking them the very questions we want answered, a must listen for horror readers and writers. So thank you very much. W matamo, what a review. I guess that is exactly what we're trying to do with this is horror podcast. We want you to be entertained, but we also want you to learn something along the way. So it was really gratifying to see that review. So please, if you are a listener to this as our podcast who has not left a review, I'd absolutely love it if you could do that, if you could do that today on Apple podcast, let us know what you like about the podcast. Let us know what you don't like. Let us know some of your favorite episodes. Let us know who you want to hear in the future, and just give us feedback. Because, you know, we are 11 years in. We're almost 600 episodes in, but we always want to get better. We're always striving to do better, to be better, to learn more. So leave us a review, or drop me a line. Michael at this is horror.co.uk. If you want to give us some feedback on the podcast, but you don't necessarily want to make it public, that is another way you can do it. And of course, if you want to support my books, then there are a number of them out. There's the girl in the video they're watching and House of bad memories. Bob has a great book Mojo rising available from perpetual motion machine publishing, and next year, he will be releasing the small hours that will be via ghoulish books who were, in fact, perpetual motion machine publishing. So the same publisher, the publisher that I have the girl in the video, great group of people, Max booth and Laurie Michelle heading that up. In fact, if you're a fan of horror, you should head over to ghoulish books and see what they're doing, because they put out some great things. I know they, in a matter of days, are putting out a new danger. Slater, book starlet, he's one of my favorite authors in the genre. They've also got things by the lights of Jessica Leonard and and Laurel Hightower, and, of course, a number of fantastic books by Max booth himself, including, we need to do something which is now a major motion picture from IFC midnight, starring Sierra McCormick, Vanessa Shaw and Pat Healy. Okay. Well, that about does it for another episode of This is horror, but until next time, master of. Horror. Sandy King Carpenter, take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have a Great, great day.