TIH 580: Sandy King Carpenter on Storm King Comics, John Carpenter’s They Live, and Film Production

Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to this is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode, alongside my co host, Bob pastorella, we chat with the world's best writers about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more. Today we are chatting to Sandy King Carpenter, the CEO of Storm King productions and the founder of Storm King comics. During Sandy's 40 year career in entertainment, she has worked on some of the best films in the world with some of the best filmmakers she's worked on the likes of they live John Carpenter's vampires, Prince of Darkness and Village of the Damned. In terms of Storm King comic, she is the first female founder of a comic publisher, and she has overseen multiple award winning tales for a Halloween night, the monthly John Carpenter's tales of science fiction, the graphic novel line night terrors, and, of course, the award winning asylum series, which kicked off the Storm King comics journey. She's also produced the peacock series. Suburban screams launched a horror podcast and is married to the director John Carpenter, who she lives with in Hollywood. So as you can imagine, this is a wide ranging conversation where we, of course, talk a little bit about Sandy's early life lessons. We talk about the practicalities in terms of her involvement as a script supervisor on they live. We get into a lot of Storm King comics. We talk about a number of the graphic novels available from Storm King comics. And we really try to cover as much as we can of her 40 year career, whilst also knowing that that is an impossible task in about 90 minutes, but I think it's one that you're really going to enjoy. You're going to get a lot out of it. You're going to be entertained. You're going to have some writing lessons, and like the best of these podcasts, I think it's going to be really inspiring, and you're going to want to go out there and create after listening to it. So we're going to get that conversation into your ears very shortly. But before we do a quick advert break, House

Bob Pastorella 3:24
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RJ Bayley 4:09
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Bob Pastorella 4:17
From the creator of this is horror comes a new nightmare for the digital age, the girl in the video by Michael David Wilson, after a teacher receives a weirdly arousing video, his life descends into paranoia and obsession. More videos follow, each containing information no stranger could possibly know, but who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and everyone he loves. The girl in the video is the ring meets fatal traction for iPhone generation, available now in paperback, ebook and audio. OK,

Michael David Wilson 4:47
with that said, Here it is. It is Sandy King Carpenter on this is horror. Sandy. Welcome to. This is horror.

Sandy King Carpenter 5:01
Thank you. Happy to be here.

Michael David Wilson 5:04
we're happy to have you here. And there's so much to talk about. I mean, there's so much that you've done within your career, but I want to go all the way back to early life lessons growing up in LA. So I wonder what stands out when you think about your formative years and lessons learned, and these don't have to pertain necessarily to horror or writing or creativity, just anything that you learnt in those early years.

Sandy King Carpenter 5:38
Well, I grew up kind of split between a place called Glenwood Springs, Colorado, which is more people would have heard of aspen, which was about 40 miles away, and and then Los Angeles, my my dad was an airline pilot, so he was based out of LA but Anytime I wasn't in school, I was shipped to my grandfather's ranch, and I think that it was the best of both possible worlds, where I lived in a city, I was exposed to everything a city gives you, and yet I grew up alone, up on a ranch, up on a big mountain, and had a lot of time to grow my imagination and read lots of books. My grandfather's house was filled with hallways full of books, and so I think that was really a great way to learn independence, to learn growing an imagination, and then just, you know, both sides of the coin. So

Michael David Wilson 6:54
what were some of the early stories that you were reading?

Sandy King Carpenter 6:59
You know, I read anything I could get my hands on that I'd say, if you want to talk about moving into horror, when I was about 10 or so, I read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and that opened up a world of wonder for me, and it was quickly followed by Bram Stoker's Dracula, and then the Island of Dr Moreau, and then anything else I could find that was great literature that happened to be horror. And so I've always been intrigued by the fantastic, the the world of wonder and the places that horror could take you, because I've always felt that horror is an allegorical medium that can speak to all kinds of things and all kinds of fears and allow you to process so much. And

Michael David Wilson 7:59
at the time you were reading these early stories, were you also like creating your own stories or drawing? Or were you watching movies as well?

Sandy King Carpenter 8:12
I didn't see as many movies because both places I lived were not right nearby theaters. And when I was really young. I was only allowed to watch Disney films where, of course, you know, they always killed the mother. I'm still killing my mother in all my stories. It's very cathartic. But you know, I drew from a young age, I was an art major in college, and so I find that anything creative inspires me. The arts in general inspire me. There

Michael David Wilson 8:59
was your mother aware of the stories that you were writing where you were killing her off.

Sandy King Carpenter 9:05
Oh, no, I only killed her once. I was an adult, and she pretty much had tried to kill me most of my life. So that was okay.

Michael David Wilson 9:14
Yeah, wow, that sounds

Sandy King Carpenter 9:18
a fraught relationship.

Michael David Wilson 9:20
Yeah, yeah. I can imagine it out last year, yeah. In terms of that relationship, is that anything you want to speak of? I mean, I know when we spoke to Dean Koontz, we ended up talking about his violent alcoholic father in the first five minutes. So we've inadvertently gone there again.

Sandy King Carpenter 9:43
Well, you know, I think that she came from an abusive family, and I think that she did her best to. Not perpetuate abuse. But when once I was older, I could understand what she overcame to be a good parent, which she was a good parent, but I could see she had a problem with the fact that what she always wanted for her child was a a great home life, a great father, the things she didn't have. But I think she was jealous of it as well. So there was a dichotomy to her that as a small child, you don't understand, you don't understand how you can be loved, and at the same time, feel something else simmering beneath and I think that it took me so many years as an adult to look back on it and go, What the fuck was going on? And I was really lucky in that I had a really loving, really strong father and a great grandfather, my dad's father, who really stepped into that, that void, and taught me that I could be whatever I wanted to be. Never disabused me of the notion that, no, I couldn't be a fireman because there were no women in the fire departments of those times like sure, you know, and made me feel secure and able to find my own wings, and later, much later, in adulthood, I could come to a peace with my mother, understanding that she did the best she could. And on her literal death bed, she wound up asking me why I was so nice to her, because she knew she wasn't nice to me. So it's always interesting to me, those relationships, those things that come with death and what lies beyond, since none of us know, right?

Michael David Wilson 12:25
Yeah, and did you find that having that relationship, and indeed, all of those relationships with your grandfather, with your mother, with your father, that that then shaped or informed your own parenting later,

Sandy King Carpenter 12:41
I was probably horrible. No, yeah, I think that what it did for me was to try to not be she was a kind of pessimistic person, and I tried not to pass that on. No, not, not to put any restrictions on who they could be, you know, short of of not wanting them to be Republicans or accountants,

Michael David Wilson 13:13
it's an eminently reasonable restriction, I think,

Sandy King Carpenter 13:19
kind of thing you don't dare say, because they might do it just to spite you, but you know, all I ever cared was that they grew up to be good men, and they have Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 13:33
yeah. And in terms of your own self belief, I mean, you said that you had your grandfather in particular telling you that you could be anything you wanted. So did you always have this idea that you wanted to professionally go into the creative arts?

Sandy King Carpenter 13:55
I think what I knew was that, you know, I used to say to him, you know, I just feel different from other people. And he said, You're not different, you're unique. And I think that kept me from from feeling like an outsider, because then I didn't care that I was different, and I I didn't necessarily think about, I have never thought about what comes next. I just walked through the next open door. I'm not one of those that says you have to have a plan and you have to know what you're striving for, because I think that's a dead end. I just if opportunity is there, why not look into it? If something happens that's interesting, why not pursue it? And so everything I've done in my life has really just been me going, really sure, why not? I. I have a big faith in why not?

Michael David Wilson 15:03
Yeah, and I think having that optimistic outlook, you know, as opposed to the pessimism, that kind of means that you see these opportunities if you're being pessimistic, then you're not always aware as to what it is in front of you. Well,

Sandy King Carpenter 15:21
fears. Fear is probably the worst human trait you could have. Fear stops you in your tracks from doing anything. And you know, I believe that to my very bones, you just can't live in fear all the time, and that debt, whether it's micro fear of of change or of failing, you know you learn from failure. If you if everything goes right, you never know what it is you did correctly. If you fail, you have an eight by 10 glossy of what went wrong, and you can learn from it. So I'd say that's the biggest thing a person has to conquer, is the innate fear you have as as a baby moving forward, and just keep a sense of adventure and confidence. And you know, like I never worried about getting hurt. I always figured it'll only hurt for a second, and then we'll find out what's on the other side, what's going on. And since I grew up with all men and in boys, it was a handy trait to have, because you usually got the crap beat out of you at some point. You know, you fell out of the tree. You fell off of whatever precipice it was, and you found out it only hurt for a minute, and then you move on from it.

Michael David Wilson 16:58
And for those who are struggling with fear, whether creatively or indeed, in any facet of their life. I mean, what kind of things have you done to overcome fear or to move forward in spite of fear?

Sandy King Carpenter 17:15
When I was in college as an art major. Have you ever seen all the shirts that say stucce on them? They have, like, a signature. They say, S U T, S T, U, S, S Y.

Michael David Wilson 17:34
Don't think I have but yeah, nodding along,

Bob Pastorella 17:38
I've seen it. Yes.

Sandy King Carpenter 17:39
Well, that signature was from a great artist who was a teacher of mine, Jan stucey, and his son, I think, formed that company and sold his signature. Jan stucey was tough, and he taught me anatomy and a bunch of things, and he taught me not to be precious with my art. And the way he taught me was I was I was a little constricted, and I would get precious with my drawings, and he would tell me I was being too precious. And he would tell me I was being too careful. And so he came over and just ripped up one of my drawings one day. He said, No, take this and paste it out of order onto another piece of paper and draw into that. And he said, and see what comes out. And while I was cursing him for tearing up my precious drawing, I found I could make something else fabulously interesting out and he would challenge me all the time. And I thought, God, he just thinks I'm shit. And I would, you know, draw back into this, tear this up, do that. And, you know, the in end of my first term with him. Turn in the portfolios of work, and you wait, you know, for the voice of doom at the end of it, and I get back my portfolio with this full page review and an A plus on it. And he said, You found courage. And he became my favorite professor, and I, you know, studied under him for a few years. But it's those kinds of challenges that sometimes you need the kick in the ass, sometimes you need to dare yourself out of a comfort zone to see what's under it, what lies inside you when you're not being careful, when you're not being the a student from elementary school who was always considered the best artist or the best. Whatever, and you get so constricted you are no longer anything but mediocre. And when you get scared to write, write every day, even if it's bad, and eventually you'll write yourself out of it. And people with writer's block, it's because they can't reach their subconscious and their unconscious in order to get to where your dreams are, get to where you only see things in when you're sleeping. And then you'll open those channels, you'll you'll find where your mind really is, and that's where originality comes from.

Bob Pastorella 20:47
Yeah, he taught you how to attack your art fearlessly.

Sandy King Carpenter 20:51
Yeah, and that's

Bob Pastorella 20:54
I've been preaching that to myself and others for a while now, and I think that's how you hit on originality, is to attack it fearlessly. And it's sometimes it's tough to do, but you just have to push through it. Oh,

Sandy King Carpenter 21:12
yeah. And so what if something comes out bad? Tear it up. Do another it's a piece of paper, whether there's typing on it or a drawing on it, we're not neurosurgeons. No one's going to die on the table. You know, we're not killing anybody. It's just that's okay. Just do it again. Do it again. What's locked in there is gonna come out. You're safe. You'll be fine.

Michael David Wilson 21:45
Yeah, I always think of Samuel Beckett's advice. You know, fail again. Fail better. Because this is a process. We just continue to fail. Hopefully we fail a little better each time. Sometimes we don't. But as you say, so what? It doesn't matter, as long as we're continuing

Sandy King Carpenter 22:06
Exactly. It's the ultimate so what and who cares whether everybody likes it or you speak to one person. The whole point of the arts is to communicate outside yourself, but you have to say something, whether it's a painting, a movie, a book, a comic book, anything, say it have a reason. You know, when people bring me stories, you know, I asked them why they wrote it. What's your why? You know, it's not just a scene. Don't tell me you just want to splatter guts somewhere. What's the story? What's it about? Why do you want to splatter guts on the wall? You know, if you just want to splatter guts on wall, go to the butcher shop and go throw something on the wall, you know. But if you want me to read what you've written, tell me a story. What's

Michael David Wilson 23:10
the first story or the first piece of art you created where you felt you really mastered getting your why on the page or on the screen.

Sandy King Carpenter 23:21
Oh, God, I do it all the time. You know, there's times where, particularly when I first started writing comics, you know, just because you've read a lot of them doesn't mean you know how to write them. And so I was first starting writing comics, and, you know, I had a lot of great advice from a bunch of great people in comics, and I plowed in there, and I was writing, and the next morning, I go and read it, I feel nothing because to get 22 pages to have suspense, thrill tear is next to impossible. It's a great discipline for any writer to try and write something that's a whole story in 22 pages, knowing that half of it's going to be visual, and half of it's going to be words. And to get to figure out where the suspense comes, to figure out, I mean, I was at sea, and so you start over again, and you write it, and you rewrite it, and you rewrite it, and you're going to keep going. I feel nothing, and then finally you beat it into submission, because you just have to be hard on it. It's how it is. And there's nothing wrong with reams of paper shredded. You know that have cross outs and remarks, and I do. I. I only get to the computer later in my process, I write on legal pads. So, I mean, I've got cross outs and arrows and everything else all over masses of legal pads as I try and beat a story into submission and feel something from it, because if I don't feel it, no one's going to feel it. And I may think I have a good idea on this latest tales for a Halloween night anthology. My story resisted me for months. It hated me. I hated it, and I knew, I knew there was a point I was trying to make, and I could not get it to come out. It was horrible. I finally, I think, got it. I hope only, only an audience will tell me if I made it. But damn, it was painful I feel all the time. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 26:05
yeah. Do you think that writing on legal pads and writing, you know, in this more tactile way, enables you to unlock creativity, perhaps through the impermanence of it, as opposed to doing it on a computer.

Sandy King Carpenter 26:24
I just feel it more, probably because I'm old. I It works for me. And then I'll get it and do the computer at some point. And even then, I'll mess with it,

Michael David Wilson 26:40
I'll redo it. And in terms of when you're writing, I mean, what? What is the setup? What writing routines Do you have? What does a typical writing session look like for you?

Sandy King Carpenter 26:55
I usually have to do it either really early in the day or really late at night when nobody's talking to me and there's no phones ringing, I just have to make it that, that otherwise I lose the whole internal Rhythm and that, or I have to be absolutely panicked because I've missed the deadline, it works really well to focus, and then I still lock myself in another room. Yeah, okay, everybody, just stop and don't tell me it's important that someone's calling right now. It's really important that I do this or, you know, I've, I've let down the company.

Michael David Wilson 27:49
And so when you're writing, are you writing to complete silence, or do you put music on to try and block out the rest of the world? 5050,

Sandy King Carpenter 28:00
sometimes I'll put on music, though it has to be like movie soundtrack music, no words, or I'll go off on that tangent of what that writer was trying to say. I can write to to straight orchestrated music, or did silence works for me? Because I'll create a whole universe in my head and I'll be fine.

Michael David Wilson 28:34
Do you tend to find that you'll listen to the same album or the same track for each project. I mean, so when you've got a project, you're like, right? This is the album that I'm pairing for this. Or is it anything goes,

Sandy King Carpenter 28:49
it varies. I haven't. I'm not, I'm not that predictable. I I've tried to be one of those people that goes, Okay, so and so always has a theme, and I'll try that this guy, I'm not even consistent to myself, right,

Michael David Wilson 29:13
right? Well, I know early in your career, you worked as a script supervisor on a number of films. And I wonder, like, logistically, let's take they live. What did your role as script supervisor involve? Well,

Sandy King Carpenter 29:34
on they live. If you'll notice, there's a couple of movies of John that appear to be written by made up people, and those are movies that he and I wrote together. So my script supervisor position is was really a crew position that I. I, I was actually one of the producers on Day Live, and I worked on the script with John, and then on Prince of Darkness, I worked a bit on that script, and also associate produced that though, on that main title, single card credit of script supervisor isn't given on movies. And that came about because I had the right to any producer credit I wanted. And I said, I want my main title, single card credit to be script supervisor. And they said, No, you can't do that. I said, Look at my contract. It says I can have the title I want. And because I had a I had a running joke with a costume designer, Jody tillen, who did Miami Vice and thief and a bunch of Michael Mann films. When she got her costume designer accreditation, she had her first main title, single card credit, she called me up. Was all excited, and I said, Oh God, when I grow up, I want a main title, single card credit. She goes, oh, a script supervisor will never have a main title, single card credit. So as a practical joke at her, I took a main title, single card credit of script supervisor just to say, Hey, fuck you, Jody. So that's why that credits like that. But I took script supervisor credits on the early films I did with John, because I was working as that on the sets. And I really like working the sets. And then after that, I would do the second unit, but Larry Franco and I had a deal where he stayed a first ad and I staged a script supervisor while we were producing the movies. It was more fun.

Michael David Wilson 32:13
So how did you and John meet? And did you hit it off initially

Sandy King Carpenter 32:21
we met on the movie star man, and I came in to interview for being the script supervisor. And the way he tells it, he thought I had a nice ass. I don't, not really sure that had anything to do with my credentials. And yeah, we just fell for each other. It was inconvenient for both of us, and we wound up together for the last 40 years, but I was script supervisors. So he got a bargain.

Michael David Wilson 33:04
Yeah, yeah. Well, that seems to have worked out fairly well then. And, I mean, you know, then, then in 91 you formed Storm King production. So how and why did that come about?

Sandy King Carpenter 33:23
Because I was producing and I needed a holding company, and that that's pretty much how you set things up when you're not a work for not a work for hire anymore, so I formed my own company and and then that grew into it, became the production company for our films. And then a subsidiary of that became Storm King comics, which I formed when I got a lot of things I do when I get annoyed at situations that that I don't think need to be unduly complicated. And that was because we were trying to set up a television show and kept getting grief on it, and I knew that the studio wasn't really going to do it. They just wanted to say they had a John Carpenter series. And I was saying why it needed to be shot in LA because the location was a character in the movie, and some under assistant development person said, Well, it's not like it's a graphic novel we're matching to or anything, and we always do a lot of art when we're presenting TV shows and features. And I said, Well, actually it is. And you know, they. So our agent there kicked me under the table, Thomas Ian Griffith, who had co created it with us, who was our six foot, five master vampire. And vampires kicks me under the table from the other side. And we walk out, and they go, what was that about? And I said, they're not going to do this TV show. They just want to say they are, and I think it'd make a great graphic novel. So I went home, talked to John. He said, How'd it go? And I said, Great, we're doing a comic book because, because everybody always wanted to put his name on comic books, and they were never for good ones. And that's how we then spent two years researching the business and the art of comics, and that started the comic company. So most of the things I do are out of sheer spike.

Michael David Wilson 36:01
So when you started the comic company and you were researching, what were some other big lessons that you learned in terms of the do's and don'ts with comics?

Sandy King Carpenter 36:13
Um, well, it was interesting, like, because I'd been in animation, the actual process of pencils, anchors and colorists was familiar to me, because it's how we did old old school animation. And so I figured, okay, I understand that. I learned that there was an entire group of anchors you never hired because they were basically high and never delivered on time. I learned it was my editing of the first writer on that comic that taught me how to write comics, because hired a guy who was a major award winning writer and known for horror and a bunch of things. And got he was good, and I would read each, each of the books as he would turn them in. And then I realized he never did the IPS as was presented to him, they were like police procedurals with threesomes in them and a demon here or there I go. This can't be but how do I keep thinking they're so great? Is because he was masterful writer, but in editing him, I had to figure out, why am I falling for it each time when he's not writing the IP, and I had contractually to deliver this IP that that John and Thomas and I had created. And so I learned, it's how I learned to write a comic by editing the original writer. And you know, you learn things like, Okay, I had finally had the comics written, they're drawn. I realized I didn't know how to deliver it to the printers. A big gap in the line. So there are various things like that. You know, I realized that the old school comic guys looked at Hollywood as as they were raping and pillaging comics, and they thought we were a vanity comic with a celebrity. And it took a couple of years for them to recognize that we just wanted to make a great comment and to win over the the old the older guys. Was a great victory, you know? And now a bunch of them, right for me, which is awesome, but, you know, it was interesting to watch them circle me and Marv. Marv Wolfson came by my booth at a couple of conventions, and I'd be terrified, because he's real quiet. And then I found out he was just really shy. And finally, one day, opened one of my comics, and he felt the paper, and he goes, nice paper. I was like, yes, yes. I mean, it's those little victories when you realize what you're doing and you just, you just learn things that are more the mechanical side of the business. And all of those became victories after at least growing up, at least one, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 39:50
and what we haven't mentioned is you're also the first woman founder of a comic publishing company. So I suppose you all. So had that to be up against?

Sandy King Carpenter 40:03
Well, you know, I was fully open to going to Dark Horse, or, you know, IDW, or anybody, but they tried to Buffalo me with, oh, so, you know, we need the movie rights to this. To John, I said, Look, I don't need you to make a movie. We know how to make movies. I just need to get a comic out. And then another one decided that if I would get $50,000 from Universal, they'd make an ashcan version of of our comic to put out for San Diego Comic Con. I finally said, so is the deal that I'm a woman or that I'm a movie person that makes you think I'm stupid? And that one ended with, Yeah, fuck off. And I thought, all right, if I figured out how to make the comic, I had to be able to figure out how to publish it, and that's how I wound up doing that. It isn't that I thought, Oh, I'm going to be the first woman publisher. I didn't even know that until a journalist told me, you know, again, it's just seemed like necessity, yeah, and

Michael David Wilson 41:19
it's incredible to me and ironic that you had comic publishers like Dark Horse asking for the movie rights. It's like, are you aware who I am? Are you aware of the track record and what I've worked on? There's just something bizarre there.

Sandy King Carpenter 41:39
I think they, a, they were dumb about the movie industry at that point, and B, they thought I was stupid. So, you know, neither thing was true.

Michael David Wilson 41:51
Yeah, it seems like there's a kind of pattern of people underestimating you, and luckily, you come out victorious.

Sandy King Carpenter 42:01
I didn't realize it was a boys club. I really didn't. And, you know, I, I had been in the movie industry already, and to me, it was a big so what if they thought they were going to be intimidating? Please. There's a lot more intimidating people in the moving industry, and they didn't face me. Why would these punk asses and comics faze me? It's just like, get over yourselves. And I think they just figured I would go away. Instead, I started having a really good time, and you know, if I'm having a good time, you're not going to get me out so and then we won awards for our first comic. And you know that that just makes me grow fangs, and I'm going to stay forever, and

Michael David Wilson 42:55
that's wonderful. And Who were some of the people that were being supportive. Who are some of the people that helped either teach you about the comic industry?

Sandy King Carpenter 43:08
There were people that were so kind. Steve Niles, Tim Bradstreet, Jimmy pomme, all of these guys, in different ways, taught me different things. Jimmy Palmy would would come over and sit in the booth and go, where's your fucking name? I don't see your name anywhere, and I go, Well, nobody cares who Sandy King is. He goes, they will put your name up there, where's your picture? Where's the knee? Came from marketing background, and, you know, I learned you listened to the mayor of comics, you know? And that's when I started putting my name up there. Started putting my picture. He said, the fans want to be part of your club. They want to feel like like they belong to you. They want to recognize you on the floor of the convention. And you know, I was used to as a producer staying behind the scenes, because in those days, producers still stayed behind the scenes. Now, of course, they all think they're celebrities, but you know, I wasn't used to putting myself forward. He taught me that doesn't work in comics. Tim Bradstreet was just great with referrals to artists, with advice about covers. I'm drawing blanks on last names all you think of as Barbara castle. It taught me about where to literally, where to put the title on the front cover, because of how they line up in the comic shop. You know, it might look cool in the middle, but you're not going to see the title. You know, fundamentals. There were just really kind people who would come by and go, Oh, by the way, Oh, okay. And in return, that's when I started always having a cappuccino machine in my booth at every convention and every morning when nobody can get to Starbucks or anything, they come over to my place and have a cup of coffee to get them going. And, you know, we try and have sandwiches and stuff, and they learned I was a good booth neighbor. So I'm eternally grateful to all the people that have taught me anything?

Michael David Wilson 46:02
Yeah, and you mentioned Steve Niles. I mean, just one of the best in the entire industry. And I mean, we've been reading some of the forthcoming and the recent releases. And I mean two of them, the killing hole was Steve Niles, and then the god list was Steve Niles, and I'm blanking on the CO writer's name, but, but there's such a breadth of stories, I mean, and this is the whole thing with storm kings anyway. I mean that there is an obvious ascetic, but you've got so many facets, from the John Carpenter line to storm kids to the twisted line as well, but with the killing hole in particular, I was blown away by this coming of age story. It's so understated, but it's so relatable, too, for anyone who's been a loner at school or at college, and my goodness, I felt things in that graphic novel that you know, six, 700 page novels have not made me feel now,

Sandy King Carpenter 47:21
I think he really talked himself with the killing hole and the god list. I really like because it's like an old fashioned caper movie, movie like, you know, as they're all searching for this book and its reveal is interesting.

Bob Pastorella 47:45
It had this, and I hate to say it like this, this Dan Brown, but horror feel to it, and scenes of it reminded me of like, like, like, the original Omen, you know when, when Gregory Peck goes on his journey to find more about his son, and it was very, I loved it. I mean, it's, yeah, it was, it's great, and I'm really excited to see more. So that's, you know, I get in these little binges every once awhile, we're getting the comics. And now I'm, I'm back, baby. So that's, that's, that's what I got to say. Now,

Sandy King Carpenter 48:32
no, I think that by pulling out of all of these different areas, by me having screenwriters, comic writers, novelists, I get access to some really interesting writers who are willing to go that the places no one else is is writing right now, and I Feel like this year, we've got some really great books, you're

Michael David Wilson 49:03
talking about, pulling people into comics. My understanding is it was you who got David J scow writing comics. So what's the story there?

Sandy King Carpenter 49:15
Oh, he just hates being left out of anything. He's a long time friend and and he kept sniffing around and getting really curious about it, but he's also friends with Dwayne swerzinski, and so Dwayne was over at the office with him and said, Okay, look, I'll show him how to write comics if you're willing to listen to him, because David's a package and and I said, All right, if you can get him to format correctly, I'll take the story. It and and so Dwayne saved his ass. They're very funny together. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 50:11
David is such a unique writer and human being. We've had the pleasure of speaking to him on this horror before, but his his collection, seeing red, I think, is possibly the most underrated short story collection of the last 50 years. I want more people to experience it, because he's a hell of a talent. Yeah, he

Sandy King Carpenter 50:38
is, and it's just if you but he has things he likes to fall back on, and he likes to repurpose a bunch of his stories. So one of the ways I trick him into some better things is to do things like I'll have a painting from one of the comic artists, and said, David, I need your help. I need five pages out of you to go with this painting and make him write something to the art so that he'll actually put his brain in gear and not try and repurpose something he's already got, because he's brilliant. But, you know, he'll try and schmooze around and do something up, no, but I mean one to me, one of the funniest and greatest of our sci fi books is when he has, and I'm drawing a blank on the name now, but when he has a an alien spacecraft crash land into a high security prison During a prison riot, and it's hysterical. I mean, it's great action, but it's also funny. Hell, he can crack me up all the time.

Michael David Wilson 52:11
Yeah, yeah. And I think the comic format is a great place to combine horror and comedy, which, yeah, when, when they're done together, they work wonderfully. But I'm, I'm not sure there's a better medium than comics for capturing that

Sandy King Carpenter 52:31
works really well.

Michael David Wilson 52:33
And in terms of Storm King comics, I mean, how would you describe the vision and the ascetic.

Sandy King Carpenter 52:44
Well, one of the distinguishing characteristics, besides the fact that it's all horror and sci fi, except for the kids storm kids, you know, which is beginner horror, is that it's, for the most part, pretty cinematic. It distinguishes itself by the adult whore isn't slasher or it's it's more esoteric. It's got of less. It's more thoughtful horror. It's got existential things that grown ups think about life after death, issues of faith, and then, particularly in dark and twisted. It's got horror from real life serial killers, things that could actually happen that aren't monsters and ghosts and stuff. So I think that we provide different kinds of horror for different audiences. The science fiction all has horror in it, but I feel like it's pretty sophisticated for the most part in the stories. So generally, once we have a reader, we keep those readers, and they come back for more.

Michael David Wilson 54:25
Yeah, and talking about the real horror in dark and twisted, I mean, that makes me recall that a few years ago, you put out John Carpenter's suburban screams, and that is a very unique premise, because I can't think of many like TV shows where they're combining reality and kind of fiction, but also not, not quite it's a very unique idea there. So how did that one come? About and how did you ensure that you, I guess, respectful to the victims within that show? Well,

Sandy King Carpenter 55:11
what made that show different was we entirely focused on the victims that and on the notion that there is no such thing as closure when they all go, Oh, so now we've given some closure to the victims, because we found the killer or the whatever it is. Everyone, whether it's a neighborhood a family, is forever changed by that crime. And when I was reading and John, I were reading the various scenarios that were presented to us, there were, I mean, there were a ton of true crimes and survivors. The thing that got to me was all these people are affected for life, some more trouble than others, and no one had ever really asked them how they work, and most shows are about the perpetrators of the crimes. So in that regard, we said, okay, we can do this if, if it's based on this, if it's based on the victims, and it's based on their words. So there was nothing made up. It was all from their mouths, and there was nothing untrue about it. And, you know, I think we served them well, and that's how we avoided being opportunistic. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 57:03
and I understand one of the episodes foam stalker, it was directed by John, but it was quite a unique way in which it was done, because the directing was remote. So talk us through how that happened, and what did that logistically look like?

Sandy King Carpenter 57:23
Well, he was completing an album at the time, and so he had to stay in LA and so I was his eyes and ears in the Czech Republic, and we set up a situation where he could talk to myself and the actors and the set via Skype. And at the same time, we had his ability to see what the camera was seeing through a big screen television at home, and we adjusted our hours so that he could direct during the day here in LA, which made it so we were shooting at night. And it worked really well. The communication worked really well. Took us a couple of weeks of making sure the servers were all hooked up correctly, and that kind of thing, because the internet was different there, but it wound up working well. It's so he was able to talk to his lead actress a few times before we went to shoot, while she was in London. She came in from there and, you know, and then I scouted the locations and sent him pictures. And so he was able to choose everything from wardrobe to to locations, and, you know, the looks of various things from home. And I think he wants to do that for the rest of his movies,

Michael David Wilson 59:13
right? Yeah, I was gonna ask if you know that experience has led to more remote directing, you know, you know, not just with John, but with anyone. And you know, actually

Sandy King Carpenter 59:28
that do that, you know, because you can't. You know, some of these really remote places and stuff is hard to do, but you know, and they've used, you figure, if they've used video assist, and they've you, and they've shot television stages for so long where you're communicating, you know, through radio. It's not the only thing that that's new about it is that you can. Do it literally to a time zone that's 12 hours away and you're not anywhere near where we can run to your trailer and say something. But it worked really effectively, particularly if your wife is running back and forth, right? Not sleeping a lot. Yeah, I had to be there anyway, because we were doing rewrites on all the episodes. So it worked out.

Michael David Wilson 1:00:30
You think there might be a second season? No,

Sandy King Carpenter 1:00:35
no. Peacock killed it. They wanted all this extra work and vetting all these other scripts, and then that was that.

Michael David Wilson 1:00:44
So we mentioned before that one side of Storm King comics is Storm kids. So I mean, how did that come about? And what can you tell us about that line in terms of the audience and what you're doing,

Sandy King Carpenter 1:01:05
I noticed at the conventions, people almost always have their kids with them, and because the art is so beautiful and compelling in our Adult books, the kids were immediately drawn to it, immediately trying to say, you know, can I have this? And I said, No, you can't. These are adult themes. And, you know, it's not like it's pornography, but they're not going to get it, and it's not appropriate for them. And the first thing that that half of these people would say was, oh, he watches Walking Dead. Well, that's a soap opera, you know, with zombies in it, which, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not at all what we do. And so I started thinking about it, and I did a short comic a giveaway for Free Comic Book Day that was more attuned to kids, just to see if anybody responded. They did. And I thought, if we can create just a couple of books for kids, then I can offer something to the different age groups where I won't feel guilty about it. And the big thing was to have things adjusted to their ages, so that it was only what was appropriate for the different age groups, and so I don't want to scare, you know, four to eight year olds, that's mean. So those books are just so that they can feel included at Halloween, or they get to have something when everybody else gets to have something. So there's ghost bunnies, there's things that that won't scare them, but they can feel like they're part of the party. And It was no coincidence that those books, for the most part, have the main one that people pick up has illustrator from Disney, so that it was very kid friendly in its look, and I felt it was high quality. And these books are written by the same people that write the adult books, except in the case of of the one that's got the Disney illustrator gets written by Jeff belki, and he's very childlike, so it worked out fine. Then we have the eight to 12 year old. They're starting to experience separations, deaths, those kinds of things. But again, you want the kids to feel empowered that they can handle whatever is is happening to them. So the idea is, you want them to feel like, yeah, bad things happen in the world, but you can, you can handle it. You can take it. So those stories are more like that. We have a Hansel and griddle ish type of book, and it's got grub, the booger troll in it. And, you know, he shows the kids how to find their parents who are missing, and all of that. And then we, we go into the young adult books where they think they're grown up, but you know, you still really aren't allowed to to show a lot of blood or swearing or things like that, and that is, you're dealing with even bigger stuff, and you hate everybody, and you want a horror book, and your parents aren't going. Be happy with me if I sell you a real adult book. So that's for the for 14 to 17 year olds, and that's how we divide it up, and that's how we choose our stuff. And Steve Niles has written a couple of those, and you know, they all seem to do well, but we apply the same quality standards to those nobody talks down to those kids. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:05:28
And I think something that you said previously in terms of the YA books is, you know, you need them to be dealing with real fears. It can't just be spooky or kind of horror carnival, ascetic. And I guess that's kind of the idea of not talking down, yeah,

Sandy King Carpenter 1:05:52
yeah. You want them. The ones we do for ya are, there's, they've great things where they're really dealing with who they are and who the real monsters are. And you know the one, one of the ones Steve wrote Sacred Hearts, has to do with the monster who isn't really the bad guy, and discerning that kind of thing, he did another one, Monica blue, a werewolf story where a 14 year old girl's mother has died and the father decides to move them out of New York City to the countryside, and like most 14 year olds, she's hateful, she's bitter, and I think most 14 year old girls are part werewolf anyway, and she gets bitten, and she becomes a werewolf. And so it's navigating that space between her and her father. And so again, it's about more than just the surface. Steve did a great job.

Michael David Wilson 1:07:15
Oh yeah. I mean, he, he always does, as we said before. And I mean, if you think back to your teenage years, what advice would you give to your 18 year old self?

Sandy King Carpenter 1:07:32
Don't get caught.

Sandy King Carpenter 1:07:39
You're not going to keep teenagers from being teenagers. You know, silly, yeah, try not to get killed doing whatever it is you're trying to cover up.

Michael David Wilson 1:07:52
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of us, when we look back to our teenage years, it's kind of a miracle that we are still alive. It's like some of the things we did, jumping

Sandy King Carpenter 1:08:04
fences when parties were raided, doing, you know, it's, you know, certain things are a miracle. You know, don't get in the car with the drunk driver.

Michael David Wilson 1:08:14
Yeah, yeah. How

Bob Pastorella 1:08:15
many of these can I take at one time? Yeah?

Sandy King Carpenter 1:08:20
Yeah. I mean, fortunately, you know, as many close scrapes as there were to get into, I never did anything really bad. I mean, I broke every rule, but I didn't really I wasn't really stupid, so I took what I considered acceptable risks. My parents wouldn't have thought so, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:08:49
I think is a good, transferable lesson, really, for adulthood and business to take acceptable risks. You know,

Sandy King Carpenter 1:08:57
it's life, you know, in general. And I think that if more people considered kind of golden rule ethics, maybe we'd be in better shape all around the world. You know, the rule of just don't be an asshole would really help.

Michael David Wilson 1:09:21
Oh yeah. It would serve many people well and be radically different. You know, this world, every country, would be radically different.

Sandy King Carpenter 1:09:32
I think so. I think it would really help out. We've all had enough of it.

Michael David Wilson 1:09:38
Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I want to talk about some of the forthcoming projects and the forthcoming releases. And I believe in a few months, blood of the taken will be out, which I know is a personal favorite of Bob's, because we read a lot of these going in. Of course, part of the John Carpenter series,

Sandy King Carpenter 1:10:04
blood of the taken Sean Mandrake is an incredible talent, and there, when they first started doing this little web strip, I said to them, and why haven't you brought this to me? The whole family works with me, from their dad, mom, now, brother, I think the boyfriend's been thrown into the mix. Their house is a giant studio with all of them working in it, and so I convinced them that, that I was serious, that I thought it really was a unique vampire story, and they write it, draw it, the works. And I think, I think this one is going to going to really be a hit. I think that they represent the LGBTQ community, both as a creator and the great things that are in that story that I don't think anyone necessarily. It's not a preachy book. So I think it gives a fun, inclusionary story that doesn't shut anyone out by being preachy in ways, just a matter of fact story that's a great ride, don't you think so? Bob,

Bob Pastorella 1:12:03
I felt it was, it was fun, engaging. Every every panel had something to, you know, to bring to the story. I don't think that there was any panel that was wasted or anything like that. And I enjoyed, you know, just, just marveling over the the actual, the art, there's so much, there's a lot of blood, and there's a lot of there's a lot of goriness, but there's that that's, that's surface level this, it goes deeper than that, and it's, it tells a very interesting story of, you know, what happens when you, when you run a foul of a vampire who's just dead set in, in having their way. And it's just, you know, and it's, it's like, it's in, it's like, oh, well, this is just the way things are gonna be, you know. And, and then you have, you know, this, this, when you to see a story where vampires turn and have to deal with that, I love that kind of stuff, ya know. And we, we don't see it too often. And so when I see it portrayed, you know. Like, what do you go through when, when you turn what happens, you know? And this, this story, and there's so much to it, and it brought it to life. And I was like, wow, this is, this is really good, really, really good.

Sandy King Carpenter 1:13:37
I thought so too. And what a talent Sean is. So I'm terribly excited to have the first book coming out. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:13:48
yeah. I mean, after reading, I was looking for more of Sean's work, but there doesn't seem to be, you know, as you say, it's the first book. So, yeah, bookmarking Sean for for the future and seeing what they come up with, because for that to be the debut, yeah,

Sandy King Carpenter 1:14:11
yeah, yeah. Well, that's through his family and anything they that any of them put their hands to is just remarkable. So I get excited every time we do New York Comic Con, because I wind up with the whole family in my booth signing, because they're all working on something for us, and I can't wait for Sean to be the star.

Michael David Wilson 1:14:46
Oh, yeah. And, I mean, you spoke about representation and the LBGTQ in comics in that one in particular, but it's something. That I see throughout the vast majority of Storm King comics, books, and like you say, it's never preachy. It's just, well, it's reality. Because this is part of reality. This has always been part of reality. So, I mean, it's a little bit odd, really. You know how, for decades, there wasn't a lot of representation, or it had to be hidden, you know, for political for bullshit reasons, to put it quite bluntly. And you know one that comes to mind, another one that I really enjoyed was death mask. And you know that the central protagonist is in a relationship with a woman. She's a woman as well. And, yeah, this is, you know, reality, but

Sandy King Carpenter 1:15:51
unremarked upon. And it's, it's how I feel you normalize the audience's reaction and response, and it's how it should be. We would never have elect, been able to elect Barack Obama President if we hadn't watched all the major black actors playing presidents on television for decades. And I think that by having edited comics so heavily for all the years, at least, that I was growing up where you only saw white faces, except for Black Panther, and you never saw anybody that might be gay or lesbian. God knows, no one ever talked about transsexual. You know, it's a disservice. It's not the world, it's not the street you walk down. And I think that's one thing we've done from the get go differently at Storm King, which is, you know, we have our books look like the world you live in. I'm happy about that.

Michael David Wilson 1:17:22
Oh, yeah, you've done a remarkable job. And, yeah, it's absolutely right that you know you're like, the relationship isn't, isn't, kind of mentioned, isn't commented upon. And what, why would it be that would be utterly bizarre. You know,

Sandy King Carpenter 1:17:42
you know, when you see a white, middle American family in a comic book, they'll go and, you know, they fuck yeah. It's just not what you do. Yeah? Why make a deal of it the other way, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:18:02
yeah, although I do like it when there are occasional parodies that do exactly what you've described, just to highlight the absurdity of commenting on it, you know, let, let's show you what that would look like with a heteronormative couple.

Sandy King Carpenter 1:18:20
You know, it's the fact that that that you'd have to do parody to point that out to somebody, yeah, is, I don't know. I'm hoping that that, with the various elections around the world, will start seeing a different reality in our political world, which then becomes reflected in our schools, our libraries, yeah, everywhere,

Bob Pastorella 1:18:55
yeah. We hear a lot of people talk about how they feel that certain things are being, I don't know, for one of a better term, shoved down their throat, but we've had creative restriction wrapped around our throats for a long time.

Sandy King Carpenter 1:19:12
Oh yeah,

Bob Pastorella 1:19:13
and it's to me, I feel like the shackles are breaking away now. You know, it's about fucking time, but you know, to do it in a way that's not preachy, that's that's based in reality, that that's where it's gonna happen. Yeah, some way it can't happen.

Sandy King Carpenter 1:19:40
It has to be it, you know, I think that it happens around the family thanksgiving tables, when some somebody brings their date, their new husband, anybody, and you find out. That a lightning bolt didn't hit the dining room, you know? And you find out the world goes on just fine. So if we can reflect that in the arts, that's the other step. And you just normalize life, and you go, nothing's God isn't going to get you God doesn't give a fuck. And, you know, I just firmly believe, even if God did give a fuck, I don't care, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:20:32
I mean, if, yeah, if God gave a fuck, then that wouldn't be much of a god worth paying any attention to is the way you know that I see it, and I mean the editor of Solaris books and rebellion publishing I remember must have been about 10 years ago now, and for Some reason, someone asked him why he sought out diverse writers when he's putting together anthologies, and he said, Well, you know, he's, he's trying to get in these anthologies the world that he wants to be in reality, so get it represented on the page. And then, as you're saying, One hopes that that will then become reality. You know, create the world you want to live in.

Sandy King Carpenter 1:21:25
Yeah, it's just the way it is. And, you know, how many people's how many creators stayed quiet for how long? Yeah, and, you know, I think in the arts, they now feel braver, and I like it, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:21:45
oh yeah, we're talking about things shifting. I mean, what do you think have been some of the biggest challenges with traditional publishing and traditional filmmaking, historically, and how do you see things changing

Sandy King Carpenter 1:22:03
Well, since all the studios seem to be blowing themselves up, I have no idea what's coming. You know, what's currently saving a lot of movie and television creators is streaming. But I think that's going to get narrowed down, because for a while there every studio had their own streaming service, and nobody wants to buy, you know, $200 worth of different streaming channels right now tick tock seems to be beating out Netflix, so that's kind of sad, because the younger audience doesn't really care about quality entertainment, so it's going to be harder to get that back on track post covid and post people thinking they can make their own movies and that kind of stuff. I think there's going to be shakeup. I think that we're going to wind up getting more projects made than the doomsayers thing. Eventually people are going to get bored. As they've started to get bored with reality television, I think they're going to want to start seeing real stories. Um, they all said all of the bookstores would die, and they haven't. The bookstores are coming back. So I think that I'm no SEER for the future. We're all just going to have to wait and see. It's a little like the ending of the thing, where you just kind of go, well, let's just sit here and see what happens. You know, a studio, we've had so many projects that we had contracts on, and then we've just watched the different companies fall like pigeons from the sky that I keep saying, well, in six months, we'll know. I've said that now for two years, so let's see what happens.

Michael David Wilson 1:24:28
I don't know, yeah, and I think you know the comment on people going to tick tock like you suggested. I think eventually, when videos and entertainment gets whittled down so much to almost these few seconds, and it becomes so just crude, then people do reverse. They're like, right now I want something substantial now. I want to go to. Back to these 1000 page Tomes. I want to go back to these three hour movies. I want to have something with substance, because this is nothing.

Sandy King Carpenter 1:25:10
I think so. I believe that that will happen. It may take a while until they get their fill of Tiktok, but when I don't know, I really don't,

Bob Pastorella 1:25:29
it's coming back. There's a lot of big books coming out, big Tomes, and thinking, you know, Oppenheimer being three hours long. Didn't feel like it was too long. No, didn't, you know, and Pete, I think people want that, that kind of experience. They just don't want it all the time.

Sandy King Carpenter 1:25:53
So, I mean, there were some great box office halls that happened between Barbie Oppenheimer, various other things, where people, as soon as they see a good movie, they want to go out again and see another movie, right? So I think that the big reason certain studios, you know, failed was a, they were badly managed, but B, they kept doing the same movie over and over. And what I found was, or I think is, that as soon as you give them something original in a story they haven't heard before, they show up, they've heard there's something new and interesting. Again, it wasn't that Barbie was so great. It's just that it was a different way of telling a story.

Michael David Wilson 1:26:53
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, Sandy, thank you so much for being so generous with your time this evening. This has been an awful lot of fun. It's been really informative. And you know, anytime you want to talk on this is horror, you're most welcome. So thank you so much.

Sandy King Carpenter 1:27:16
Thanks guys, great meeting you.

Michael David Wilson 1:27:21
Thank you so much for listening to Sandy King Carpenter on this is horror. Join us again next time when we will be chatting to Todd Keesling. But if you want to get that ahead of the crowd, if you want to get every episode ahead of the crowd, become our patreon@patreon.com, forward slash, this is horror. Not only do you get early bird access to each and every episode, but you can submit questions to the interviewee. We have a number of great people, great writers coming up on this is horror. Will be reconvening with Jason pargan In a couple of weeks. We're also going to be talking to Dean Koontz again. So that is always a tremendously exciting occasion. We're going to be talking to David moody, we're going to get LP Hernandez on the show for the first time, and we're just scratching the surface there. We've got a number of other podcasts in the pipeline, a lot to look forward to. So if you want to support this endeavor, patreon.com, forward slash, this is horror. Okay, before I wrap up, a quick advert break, it

RJ Bayley 1:28:52
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Bob Pastorella 1:29:00
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Michael David Wilson 1:30:14
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