Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to This is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson and every episode alongside my co host, Bob pastorella, we chat with the world's best writers about writing, life, lessons, creativity and much more. Today we are joined by Todd Keesling. This is the second conversation that we've had with him in about a month, and that is because in the first conversation, we only spoke about around half the stories in cold, black and infinite and it is a fantastic collection, and we wanted to do It justice, so we've got Todd back for another two parter. So if you consider these conversations as one, this might be the first four parter we've had, albeit with a one month break in between the second and the third part. But Todd is always a joy to talk to. He's done so many things. He is a Bram Stoker Award nominated author of Devil's Creek, scanlines, the final reconciliation and ugly little things collected horrors, put out a lot of other books as well, including the previously mentioned cold, black and infinite. So there's a lot to get into, but before we do a quick advert break

Andrew Love 2:12
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Bob Pastorella 2:43
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Michael David Wilson 3:22
With that said, Here it is. It is Todd Keesling on, this is horror. Todd, welcome back to this is horror podcast.

Todd Keisling 3:36
Thanks, Michael. It's great to be here. And I just want to point out that at the bottom of the screen, it said that I passed a health check, which is probably the first time in my life.

Michael David Wilson 3:47
Yeah, yes. Zencastr has a habit of doing that, which, you know, it's very generous that alongside, you know, recording these conversations, it apparently has the technology to assess our health very quickly, so I don't know if they can be legally accountable if you now come down with some sort of disease, if you're like, right? Well, I'm suing you because I I was gonna go to the doctor, but you said that I passed a health check. Well,

Todd Keisling 4:17
that's true. I mean, I've got a bad case of capitalism, so that's pretty terminal. I think,

Michael David Wilson 4:25
oh yeah. Well, we'll, we'll dig into that a little bit later. I mean, I know that we, we touched on the smile factory and happy pills in the last conversation, but we'll go more in depth, and we can analyze your yeah malady that is capitalism, a malady that a lot of people yeah

Todd Keisling 4:50
from it, yeah, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 4:52
But the last time we spoke, it was a month ago, so decidedly sooner that. In the time before that, when it was four years that we, yeah, we'd left it. So I'm wondering what's the best and worst thing that has happened to you in the last month? In

Todd Keisling 5:12
the last month? Oh, man, best thing, and this is, I couldn't talk about this last time we met, because it hadn't been announced yet, but it has since been announced. And the best thing is that my next novel, sundowners dance is going to be published by shortwave publishing next April. So that's the that's the best thing, and there will be news on the audio front for that same book, but still, still unannounced right now, but there will be soon. Yes,

Michael David Wilson 5:50
so many people seem to be praising shortwave, and so many great writers are getting deals with them. I mean, I think it was when they put out a book, I am, I by I junk, that I first noticed them, and that was fairly early into their publishing journey. But they just seem to be getting better and better. So, yeah, very glad to hear that you're they've

Todd Keisling 6:19
been on my radar for a while. I I appreciate good design, because I do that for a living. And you know, Alan, the guy behind the scenes at shortwave, is himself a designer, and it shows like he puts a lot of time and effort and care into the way their books look along with, you know, what's, you know, what's on the page. It's not just that. It's, you know, what's the presentation like? So, like, I know that audio listeners won't be able to see this, but he sent me a couple of their books, including this beautiful hardcover edition of obsolescence that they published. I mean, you gotta look at the just even the hardcover itself has print on it. It's gorgeous, and every one of their releases that are purchased directly through them get its own custom box, which is insane, but I fucking love it. So yeah, having the opportunity to work with them is amazing. I've you know, nothing bad to say about it. The experience has been great. So far. I'm giving him a shot at the cover to see what he comes up with. And, yeah, things are moving already. It's already with an editor and everything, and I can't wait to release this book to everybody next year.

Michael David Wilson 7:53
Now you said that you're giving him a shot at the cover, and I want to clarify. I mean, could this be a collaborative effort if, if you don't quite see the vision, might you do the cover? Could you almost have this crazy, artistic cover where he does some and you do some, what's the deal? I would

Todd Keisling 8:15
prefer that Alan just, you know, take the reins. And so far he has, I mean, I've given feedback to what he's shown me, so it's collaborative in that respect. But, you know, I kind of pitched him what I saw in my head, and he's taking that and running with it, which is exactly what I wanted. Because I kind of want to get away from designing my own covers, even though that's what I do for a living is design stuff, simply because I don't have time, because I can't, you know, say much about the first half of this year. The latter half is shaping up to be extremely busy. I just wrapped up the interior layout and design for Larry Barron's new collection, not a speck of light that's coming out later this year from bad hand books, working on a number of projects with them. Lately, Doug has definitely kept me busy. So yeah, it's it's been a very busy month so far, and it's only shaping it to be busier. So no, I don't really have time to design my own book cover this time around.

Michael David Wilson 9:25
Yeah, bad hand books are another publisher that have relatively recently come onto the scene, and again, the quality of work that they're putting out is astounding. But of course, I mean, I feel that there should be a caveat when I say they've recently come onto the scene, because it's like, well, this isn't Doug morano's first rodeo. Involved in so many anthologies. We've spoken to him about them numerous times. He's won this is horror awards, as have you for your. Cover art. So actually,

Todd Keisling 10:02
have the certificate you guys sent me in a frame. I just haven't got around to hanging it yet.

Michael David Wilson 10:07
There you go. Brilliant, yeah,

Todd Keisling 10:12
yeah. I gotta find a space for it, yeah, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 10:15
that. There's also so visual treats then early doors, so people should be watching the video version of this, and, yeah, it will be up on on YouTube. I do want to know a little bit more about the process to getting the deal with shortwave. Now, I don't know how much you want to talk about it, or how much like Becky is comfortable with you talking about it, but obviously, when you've got a book, there are a number of publishers that you can consider and look into. So why and how was it shortwave?

Todd Keisling 10:56
So we started with the bigger houses, and I knew that going in that that was going to be a long shot, because it's a weird book. It's a very pulpy sci fi, cosmic horror, you know, leaning story, and it also just had more of a mass market appeal, I think, which is, you know why I wanted to take take a shot at it. And from my understanding, and I can't really say who or the why, but from my understanding, we got pretty close with one of the big houses, and it just didn't check all the boxes on our criteria, there was like one box left unchecked. So that was a little disheartening. But they do want to see something else for me, so I'm working to, you know, finish the next thing, get that out to them for consideration. Um, but no, we started and at the top, worked our way down. And when we got when it is getting pretty clear that, okay, no one's really gonna take this on at a at a bigger level. I had a very, very, very short list of independent presses I wanted to pitch it to because if I haven't been burned by a small press at this point, then you know, the ones that I haven't been burned by are very small. I'm very particular. About, you know, when it comes to the business side of things. And, you know, I want what's best for my book. I want what's best for me and what's best for my agent, by, you know, Association. And there just aren't a lot of small presses out there right now in the horror world that seemed to know what the hell they're doing. So it was a very small list, and shortwave was at the top, because I at least understood their approach to publishing from a design perspective, and for me, that's, that's half the battle. That means they care about what they're putting out. They're actually doing things to catch the reader's eye, rather than just slapping a cover and a barcode on it and, you know, tossing it to Amazon and letting you know, letting the wolf take it apart. Like we have a marketing plan. For once, I got a marketing budget. It's nice. So there are certain things that we can do now, promotion wise that I couldn't do with with other publishers. You know, there, there was an advance. A lot of times you don't get an advance with a small press. All the terms were great, you know, and I can't really complain about any of it. I wouldn't have signed a contract if I wasn't happy with it to begin with. So, yeah, that's that's one. That's why shortwave was at the top of my list, and we pitched them. They read it in a matter of days, got back to us with an offer, and we sent some counters out. And you know, I don't remember if we had counters per se, but I know it was sent out and ended up going a short way, but just, it just felt right. So Alan, if you're listening, and I'm sure you will be at some point, no pressure, buddy.

Michael David Wilson 14:27
Yeah, we had Joshua Millikan on the other day. He was very complimentary about Alan as well. And yeah, just a combination of what both of you have said, and of course, everything that I was witnessing through shortwave as well, they're totally on my radar now. And yeah, unfortunately, I mean, I don't think it's a big secret that there aren't that many independent presses that are doing things. In the right way. And so you, you know, you have to be very meticulous with those contracts and ask specific questions, because this is your book. This is your living you know, if, if they mess up one book for them, then it might not have so much consequence. But for you, it really can, yeah,

Todd Keisling 15:23
it, you know, it's not their name and big text on the cover, you know, it's, it's mine. And, you know, I, I've grown to become particular about small presses and very critical of the way they handle things, business, on the business side of things, because again, speaking from experience, I've worked with publishers that haven't been so professional. They haven't had their shit together on the back end. And I hate to say it, but most of the presses that are out there right now to me, and this is totally my opinion, so, you know, I'll own this if people want to come after me. But I think that there are more hobbyists in the small press world, and there are actual professionals when it comes to publishers. The pros actually give a shit. They understand where you're coming from. They want to do the best work possible. Because the end, they understand that it not only represents the author, it represents them. And, you know, they figured out a way to at least have some income from it, and they're making money. The author's making money, which is how it should be. Um, so what I found over the over the last several years, especially going through what we did with Devil's Creek and everything, which was a mess, and then my monochrome books, which were, you know, with another small press that thankfully closed, there was just this extreme lack of forethought and consideration to the authors, especially like for as much as you get roasted online for something stupid. You might have said you can't just close up shop over, you know, and like that, and not expect the authors to be upset or pissed off or, you know, just generally disgruntled about the whole thing. You can't expect to just drop off the face of the earth and then act surprised when everyone's angry at you because, hey, you didn't tell them when you were going to pay out their last, you know, set of loyalties. And there's just a lot of things like this that nobody seemed to think about so and I think it stems from the fact that when I say hot, well, let me back up. When I say hobbyist, I mean, somebody who's hard is in the right place. I'm not saying that they start out trying to fuck over writers. That's not the case of it. You know, I'd like to believe now there are some bad actors who intentionally just want to, you know, take the money and run essentially. I think we might have seen that happen recently with another small press, and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. But for the most part, you know, they're fans of the genre, they're fans of the work, and they want to, you know, hey, why is it my favorite author from 20 years ago. Why isn't this book that I loved in print? Well, what if I started publishing company just to get them back in print? And then, you know, there's so many facets to publishing on the business side of things that they don't really understand or don't take the time to research and learn, and that's when you get bad contracts. That's when you get no contracts. You just got word of mouth, or some or not word of mouth, but they're taking somebody at their word that, yeah, I'll publish your book, and I'll give you X amount of money, and I'll give you a percentage of royalties. And then when push comes to shove, and the shitty looking book is out there in the world that hasn't been edited. Had a, you know, AI designed as a cover, and the author is like, left, basically Holding, holding the bag, while the publisher runs down the street. It's the author is like, Okay, well, where are my sales? Where's my report, where's my statement. And the publisher, if they don't just say I was supposed to send you a statement, then they don't say anything at all. They just, you know, disappear. So that's a long winded way to say that there are too many hobbyists and not enough professionals in the indie publishing world. Now, I'm sure there are some people out there who argue that, you know. Well, you know, you can't just start out being a professional in the field and knowing everything. And I don't, I don't think that. I don't think there's anything wrong in saying that either, like you do have to learn there are publishers who are gonna, you know, make missteps, but it's how they handle those missteps and how they pivot and learn from it and put actions in place to improve or to prevent the misstep from ever happening again. That's what matters. But right now, it's just, it just seems like they pop up overnight, they sign a bunch of authors and promise, you know, they promise everything. They promise riches and fame and exposure and all this bullshit. And then when push comes to shove, it's a shitty looking product. Even if the story might be amazing, it can be the most well written book in the world, but no one's going to touch it because product looks like shit. And, you know, they just put it out there. They don't do any marketing for it. And then, oops, no royalties, or there were so few royalties that I'm not going to pay you out yet. And then, obviously, there's some fuckery going on behind the scenes that nobody wants to talk about until it hits a critical mass, and then it all comes out, and they just close up shop quietly and disappear. I've seen this happen time and time again, and I'm sure that you know, the industry vets have seen this happen time and time again, especially since the last horror boom. So what's the solution? I don't know, guys, if you want to start a press, I don't know. See if you can intern for a publisher. See if you can learn as much as you can take some courses on how to run a business. Get an M, get a, you know, get an M, you know, MBA. I don't know. I don't know the answer, because I'm not on that side of the business, but I just know what I've seen fail and how it impacts the author every single time. Like there's no insulation from, you know, the author does not get insulated from a failure like that, because at the end of the day, all they're doing is building a house of cards. So I'll get off my soapbox now. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 22:21
it's interesting how you know one of your proposed solutions was actually kind of my journey into horror publishing, because before I started publishing with this as horror I I did start working as an intern for rebellion publishing, who owned 2000 ad and Solaris books and abandoned books, and then, from there, got an assistant job. And then alongside that, I was, you know, learning how to publish and then putting out. This is horror chat books. And, you know, it went from there. But now for me, when I'm looking for an independent press, or when I'm looking for any publisher, I have to make sure that whoever I'm submitting to, I think that they can do a better job than I could do on my own, because I've now got all this experience, it actually sets the bar quite high. And, you know, like talking to other people as well is a good idea. Other people who have worked with that press, what was it like for you? What did they do after the book came out? Because, like you say, a lot of them, there'll either be no marketing, or they will mark it up to the point it comes out, and then it's as if it doesn't exist anymore. It's like this book has no sale by date. You can keep marketing, you can keep promoting it, but, you know, it's a problem. But talking about good publishers, like shortwave and like bad handbook, that's how, you know, we get this word of mouth in terms of quality. And now you said that a lot of people start off as hobbyists, and there's nothing grung with that. I also think there's nothing wrong with you saying, okay, that's fine, but I don't want to submit to someone who is at the stage of hobbyist, because, yeah, I don't want you to be learning and making mistakes through my book.

Todd Keisling 24:34
It's the what comes to mind immediately is the open calls that I'll see for anthologies or for magazines. And okay, I get that not every business can pay a professional rate fine. That's totally up to the writer to submit their work for that you know, for that you know, lower pay if they. Want. That's the writer's choice. But when I see these publishers, and I say that in quotations, offering $25 token payments for stories up to 10,000 words, that's insulting, and it's, it's one thing. If it's their first time doing it, okay, budget's tight, I get that. But if it's your 10th time doing it, it goes beyond just, you know, only being able to afford a certain amount. It goes beyond that. It becomes exploiting. Exploit. It exploitative, or whatever the word is, I can't I get tongue tied, but in my eyes itch to me that shows that they don't give a shit about the writer, when without the writer, there is no publishing company. So, you know, I kind of got into it with a publisher. Wasn't even one of my publishers, but they had written this post last year about, you know, complaining about freelancers that they were hiring, expecting them to pay rich publisher rates. And I'm just like, motherfucker. Let's break this down. What all of this should actually cost. Here's what an edit costs, here's what a design costs, what a cover costs. You know, in rich publisher rates, why the fuck do you think you should be getting a better deal than that? These people deserve to eat. We all deserve to eat, you know. And it's, it's incredibly frustrating to see this. And what's more frustrating is seeing the writers who don't know better, you know, and seeing them just hand their work over to these vultures, essentially getting and they're getting stuff for repentance, if not free, and thinking that, you know, they Yeah, I finally got published, and that's wonderful. I'm not trying to rain on their parade, but it's getting treated poorly like that. Getting such a small rate for your words is not how this is supposed to go and it, you know, I'm not saying it saying it's willful ignorance. It's just that most people don't understand how this is supposed to work, because there are so many bad actors out there who are taking advantage. I feel like I'm turning into Harlan Ellison,

Bob Pastorella 27:44
it's too easy to hang a shingle online and create and create a company, yeah, I mean, and that's, I think that's great, but that also, you know, the other side of the coin is that all stuff that you're talking about, you know, am I in my day job? I've run across people who have multiple businesses, doing all kinds of things, and some of them are very successful, and they they, you can tell that they're organized, they know what they're doing, but a lot of them, they not. Might have two or three businesses, you know, but they're really side hustles, and they can stop them at any time, yeah? And if publishing and putting out a product, I mean, and when you're first starting out, yeah, sure. But you know, 567, years down the road, and you're getting, you know, a good roster. It's no longer a side hustle, and you can't treat it like that exactly. There has to be some pride, there has to be some integrity, you know. And those are just old fashioned words that golly, they still mean a lot of shit. Now they still mean a lot, yeah, you know. And it's just, you know, new writers, just be careful. Absolutely, they're under percent. Be careful.

Todd Keisling 29:08
There are so many people who prey on creatives in general, because, you know, the writers or the creatives don't see the value in their own work. You know, they don't see the value in the time it took them to create something. And you know, my go to phrase for all of this is I work too fucking hard at this to not get paid or not be treated with respect. And I feel like every writer who's serious about their craft and wants to make this their career. They need, they need to say that, you know, I I work too fucking hard at this not to get paid. And, you know, maybe this is a network moment where I tell you to go to your windows and scream outside. You know, I'm mad as. All, and I'm not going to take this anymore there, really, it's what you should be doing, not at your window, because it'll scare your neighbors, but to all the, you know, the smaller presses out there who seem like they're just winging it and to flip this around and go back to positive experiences with publishers and good publishers, you know, it's not shortwave, bad hand, tenebrous, ghoulish, you know they're doing, they're doing good work, and they give a shit. You know it? Then there are those that the jury's still out because they're too new. And you know, you kind of have to wait and see. You hold your breath and see okay. Is are their first run of authors getting treated, right? You know, did they get contracts? Are the contracts Good? Are they not predatory? I could go on about this for hours, gentlemen, but I don't think people want to hear me just bitch the entire time.

Michael David Wilson 31:07
I mean, I suppose it depends how we market the episode. I could imagine that there would be publishers or would be small presses that are listening to this, and they have positive intentions, and they don't have a lot of money at the moment, and, yeah, you know that they're thinking, well, well, what can I do? And I think there are a number of things that they can do. I think your internship suggestion was excellent. I think as well, often when somebody is considering starting up a publishing company, there's a certain aspect of publishing that is their strength, be it the editing, be it the artwork, and so definitely utilize that. And there's a couple of avenues that you could go into that if editing is your strength, then see, are there other independent or even traditional presses where you can get some freelance gigs and some opportunities so you can really work on your craft in that area? Another is you could look rather maybe your dream is for it to be your own company, but actually, financially, that's not possible at the moment. So you could have some sort of collaboration. If you're a good editor, is there a good artist that has this vision as well? Perhaps, as a marketer, there's someone who's great with contracts and accounts, and then together, you know, you're in for 25% each, and suddenly what you can do with more people is a lot more manageable. I would say, too, that, you know, in terms of paying the writers, if you've not got a big budget. In my opinion, do not start with an anthology or a magazine where there are multiple writers. Some people do. I don't think you should. So you need to start with a single or for work. If you're a writer, I mean, maybe learn through independently, putting out some of your own work, because then you're not going to accidentally upset another person.

Todd Keisling 33:26
Anthologies, I mean, generally, an anthology that's paying pro rates, and this is assuming everybody's getting the same rate. Usually, if you want those bigger names or they're going to pay for them, you know, you're looking at 10 to $15,000.10 of that is probably just paying for the stories. Uh, it's expensive. It's incredibly expensive. And you know, to your like you were saying, Michael, you know where you take on partners and you know, everybody gets a percentage of, you know, what's, what's left, after all the stuff's paid out and everything. Write a business plan. Write a business plan and get, get a loan, get, you know, working capital. Every business that I've ever worked for has had revolving credit in order to pay, you know, to cover expenses in the event that they don't profit enough. That's expected, at least here in the States. I can't speak for any other country, but here in the States, you know, get working capital somehow, whether it's you putting money away and saving and while you're learning to, you know, or to fund a lot of this stuff, or, you know, write a business plan, go to your bank, tell them what you want to do, see if they'll, you know, loan you some money and go from there. And, you know, I don't know a single business that doesn't have any kind of debt. Related to that. So it's, again, with, as with anything else, it's a gamble, you know, it's a gamble for the author to send them, you know, to send, send a publisher their work, just as much as it's a gamble for the publisher to take on said author. And that's really where what it comes down to is, you know, if the publisher, as a publisher, if you believe enough in someone's work that you think you can sell it to people and make a profit on it, then, you know, great, go for it. But you can't just put it out in a vacuum, and not, you know, just expect it to, like, do things without, you know, without your support?

Michael David Wilson 35:43
Yeah, absolutely. And I think there was someone on your end who immediately jumped into their car and went to get some working capital, because as soon as you said that, I had a really loud engine roar away.

Todd Keisling 35:57
Sorry. I live on a busy street. It's hot in my house and my window is open. I apologize.

Michael David Wilson 36:04
They were excited. They were inspired by you.

Todd Keisling 36:07
There were probably more excitement.

Michael David Wilson 36:11
But let's jump in to some of the stories that we didn't cover or that we only very fleetingly covered in the last episode, so from the cold, black and infinite collection. And so the next one is after birth, which I know you've pitched before. Is your spin on Jonathan Swift, some modest proposal. Well, just a little bit darker than that, I would say, yeah. So let's talk about that one which I understand only took two days to write. That

Todd Keisling 36:54
is correct. I can't remember exactly what sparked the idea, but I know the Republicans had something to do with it. I was, I met summer cannon for coffee at Starbucks, and this was, this was after I got laid off from my laid off for my, my corporate job, and met her for coffee, just to hang out and shoot the shed. And I had had this, something that had happened in our government involving Republicans, and, you know, women's rights happen, and that it pissed me off. And in all honesty, like the story, which was originally just titled pro life, and was the first published under that title through weird whispers. Number one, think the only issue of that magazine, that nightscape press put out, it was all politically charged, and about the issue of women's rights, and how, you know, here in America, a woman is expected to be, you know, someone who carries carries a child to term, regardless of the circumstances, when I believe a woman, it's a woman's body, she has a right to choose what she does with her body. So it all kind of goes back to, I don't remember. I'm not well read in you know, politics per se, but basically it's, it's about Republicans and how they only care about the fetus. They don't care about when the child's actually worn and, you know, it's not really, you know, it's not really childcare. It's just, you know, it's forced birth. Is what it is, and then doesn't matter what the hell happens to that kid after they're born. That's, you know, that's a parent's problem. But, you know, we got to save them fetuses, guys. So after birth came from that it was, you know, how can I take this concept, put it in a, you know, disguise it as a story that is taken to the, you know, an extreme level. So we got a woman who works at a abortion clinic, and what if she's stealing the amniotic waste to, you know, perform a ritual, an era, you know, a necromancy spell to imbue it with life so she can grow her own child. Because what if she's unable to have her own children? And that's where it came from. And it was this dark, disturbing story that had roots in an older story of mine that was never. Published called the baby harvest, and that might see the light of day someday. I might want to revise that heavily or rewrite it, but central conceit of afterbirth sort of is a nod to that old story that no one has read.

Michael David Wilson 40:20
Yeah, and we can't say too much more about, you know, that story after birth without getting into spoiler territory. I mean, it's a fairly short, short story, but I will say that I think the conclusion is incredibly satisfying, and I can't really go into more detail than that, but it is a good conclusion,

Todd Keisling 40:49
so I have a funny story about it, actually, yeah, last summer, when I was on tour, the last stop of the tour, actually, was At this small bookstore called Taylor's dog and Berea, Kentucky. And I chose that location because it was in between where I was staying and my hometown. So I booked that location so if anybody in my hometown wanted to travel, they didn't have to travel far, and wouldn't also require me to actually drive to my hometown because of Red Devils Creek. We all know how I feel about that place. So, you know, I reached out to the owners. They were gung ho for it. They organized this event. Laurel Hightower was my my guest there. She was also signing, and she read a story from her new collection at the time, and then it was my turn. And by this point, my mom had shown up, and she was kind of sitting like right next to my table. And I got up, and I noticed that a lot of the audience appeared to be on the conservative type, because it's southeastern Kentucky. So I gave them a choice. I said, Okay, do you guys want to hear something funny or something gross? And all the guys in the room said, gross, really loud. So I had to go with gross. What they didn't know is they were getting gross and funny, but I proceeded to read all of afterbirth aloud. Think it was the only time I've ever read the whole thing to an audience and the reactions from the right side of the room where all the conservative ladies were sitting, and then the left side of the room where all the dudes were and my mom, my mom was having a hard time keeping a straight face because she'd never read the story. But my mom and I differ on a lot of things, politically and and on religion, and it's as well. So it was part, partially I read that for her, just to, you know, just, you know, tweaks and gears a little bit and, and she knew what I was doing, and she thought it was funny, which was good, because otherwise it would have, you know, mortified her. And, yeah, it was just a fun experience to read that to people who weren't prepared for what they were getting, and to gage the reaction. Normally, I wouldn't do that. I kind of read the room, but in this case, their reaction is exactly what I wanted. So I could be a bastard like that. Sometimes

Michael David Wilson 43:40
the next one is Annie's heart. Is a haunted house, which is amongst my favorites. One of

Todd Keisling 43:47
my favorites too. It's one of my favorites too, yeah, and

Michael David Wilson 43:51
I love that you're challenging the concept as to and stretching the definition as to what a haunting is, and I feel it's so apropo that we're talking about this, having very recently spoke to Josh maleman about incidents around the house, which also challenges and stretches and redefines the concept of a haunting. So, I mean, let's talk about what a haunting is to you, and then where the concept for this story came from.

Todd Keisling 44:30
First of all, Josh's book is excellent, and if folks haven't read that yet, you really need to. I finished it a few nights ago, actually. And God, what a what a fucking journey. That book is a haunting like, let me back up. I don't necessarily believe in ghosts. I think there's like a whole other, you know, scientific angle to it from a quantum perspective, but I'm not going to get into that. Uh, anything can haunt you, like you can be haunted by your emotions. You can be haunted by someone's presence, even if they're not there because of trauma that they might have, you know, done to you. Um, so I think haunting, what a haunting is, can really be, is wide open for interpretation. It doesn't have to be, you know, a spirit. It doesn't have to be, you know, a phantom of any kind. It can be something totally different. And with Annie's heart, I was playing around with the idea of, you know, when you're in love with somebody, you know, it's like they kind of haunt you. In a way. It's, you know, you're thinking about them all the time. You see little things that you that you observe, tend to remind you of them. What you know that that puts me in mind of every time I've, you know, thought I've loved someone or been attracted to someone, and it wasn't reciprocated. You know how that made me feel? And it's like, well, it's almost like I'm I felt like I was being haunted by this person because, you know, even though it wasn't reciprocated, and I understood why, I still couldn't get over them per se. So I took that idea and that feeling from my younger days. I've been, you know, happily married now for almost 20 years. So we're going back to a very young period of my life, when I was a teenager, I took that feeling and I married that with this song from a band, a Canadian band called Our Lady piece, and it was on the third album, uh, happiness is not a fish You can catch. The song is called Annie, and there's a there's a lyric that I couldn't reference in the story for obvious reasons, but the lyric goes something like, there's something in the way she explains to me, please be careful, Annie dreams that everyone is dead. So I started that has always stuck with me, and I got invited to write a ghost story for an anthology. It was meant to be like a weird it was a weird horror take on ghosts and hauntings. So I tried to think of the most non haunting concept as possible. And that's where I struck upon the, you know, the feeling of like you're being haunted by someone that you know you love, that isn't doesn't reciprocate. It the song, you know, the song Annie. And that's really how I came up with the concept for Annie's heart as a haunted house. And it's I pitched it as you know, the Breakfast Club meets. I have no mouth and I must scream. Now you have these kids who are all from different social groups, and they all wake up in all in a big, lavish house, and they're being hunted by something that lives on the walls, and it's all got something to do with this young woman who's asleep upstairs and like a very Sleeping Beauty kind of situation. And I can't really say more than that without giving away the gist of the story, but that's kind of where it came from. Yeah, and

Michael David Wilson 48:42
this story, it starts absolutely in the thick of the action. So did you know from the start that it would begin so mid action, or did it go through numerous drafts where we were gradually brought into it a little more so

Todd Keisling 49:01
normally, normally, I try to approach storytelling very chronologically. I try to, you know, Here's the setup and everything. But with this short story, I wanted to kind of step out of my comfort zone and see if I could start it in the middle or in in media res, as they say in high school English class. But I wanted to start in the middle where things had already gone to shit, and we got this that introduces the guy telling the story. It gets your attention right away that, oh shit, something's happened here. And then we start to recount, you know, how things have got led to this point, and I very much was, you know, following Allison's footsteps. There I I revisited. I have no mouth, and I'm a scream, you know, a couple times while writing that story, because I, I wanted to be in all. Homage, but also its own thing. And, you know, I looked at how he kind of structured the very beginning of that story. And, you know, I kind of followed his lead a little bit and then branched off to do my own thing. So from the start, I knew I wanted it to be, you know, in your face. But then, you know, I also wanted to really get into the the why of everything and the personalities involved, and, you know, go from there.

Michael David Wilson 50:35
And I really feel that this one would lend itself so much to a kind of TV mini series adaptation, like some anthology shows such as twilight zone, it would just work perfectly.

Todd Keisling 50:51
You know, a creep show, the new creep show anthology series would be, it would be cool to see that adapted

those, those rights are for sale. Hollywood. You know that would be awesome, but you know, again, I'm not going to hold my breath either.

Michael David Wilson 51:14
Yeah. Are you in any talks for film or TV adaptation that you are able to talk about massive caveat.

Todd Keisling 51:25
Yeah, not at the moment. Nothing is in the works that I'm aware of. I have been optioned a few times. Scanlines, my novella had, you know, multiple attempts to get that made and the last time the most recent one, the writer strike killed it. Devils Creek, I worked for a summer with a production team to create a beat sheet and episode by episode, outline of what a first season of a devil's Creek show would look like, and that that never went anywhere. The Hollywood's a very fickle beast. Everything is a yes until it's a no. I think Chuck Wendig said that. Yeah. So that's all I can really say. I can't say, you know, with whom, or or whatever.

Michael David Wilson 52:26
Yeah, this is why, you know, when I was speaking to my film manager, Ryan Lewis and Josh maleman has a similar philosophy, celebrate every step along the way, but, and this is a key, but never assume that you're a step further than you are. This is how depression and despair and just absolute devastation occurs. You can't imagine you're further than you are, because it could collapse at any time. It absolutely

Todd Keisling 52:59
could. And I learned after, like, my, my first collection got optioned, and, you know, there was a, there was a big, you know thing, there were some very high profile names attached to it. And then it just didn't happen, because all these other folks got to it first they got to the same concept. First it was like an anthology show. But then all these other anthology shows, you know, beat him to the punch, and then there was no demand for it anymore. So I learned from that point on when it comes to Hollywood. You know, it's cool, if they're interested, wonderful. But until I'm actually in a chair at a premiere and the money's in my bank account, I'm not going to believe it's going to happen. And even then, I probably wouldn't believe it's going to and frankly, like any time that I'm exposed to the inner workings of how things in, you know, go in Hollywood, I honestly don't know how any fucking thing gets made there ever so, but I'm all for trying. Oh yeah,

Bob Pastorella 54:20
it's like William Goldman said, no one knows what they're doing exactly in Hollywood, exactly as a clue, that's how he became successful, was he had to act like he knew what he was doing, yeah? Well, not knowing anything. So fake it till you make it baby.

Todd Keisling 54:40
Yeah. It's about to say, you know, that goes forever everything in life. I think, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 54:45
Isn't that how Joe Lansdale first wrote a script? I believe, a conversation with him, he was saying that he said he could write one hadn't got any experience. And then. The couple of days to write it. And

Todd Keisling 55:02
it's like with Barker with Hellraiser. He, you know, he didn't know how to fund to direct, and he went to, he went to the library to check out a book, and it wasn't even available, so he couldn't even read a book about

Michael David Wilson 55:15
it. Yeah, that's pre internet days. Oh, yes, I music. Thank you for listening to the podcast with Todd Keasling. Join us again next time for the second and final part of the conversation. But if you want to get that ahead of the crowd, if you want every episode ahead of the crowd, then become our Patreon. Patreon.com, forward slash. This is horror. Not only do you get early bird access to each and every episode, but you can submit questions to each and every interviewee. And coming up very soon, we'll be chatting to Robert o'tone. We've also got the likes of Jason Parkin, Dean Koontz returning, and many more in the next few months, as we get towards the end of the year, go to patreon.com, forward slash. This is horror, and see if it's a good fit for you. Okay, before I wrap up a quick advert break

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Michael David Wilson 57:33
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