TIH 582: Todd Keisling on Gethsemane, Solve for X, and The Smile Factory

Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to This is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode, alongside my co host, Bob pastorella, we chat with the world's best writers about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more. Today, we are chatting to Todd Keasling for the final episode in which we talk about his short story collection called Black and infinite. So stay tuned for that very soon indeed. But one thing I wanted to talk to you about up front is that my novel they're watching, written with Bob pastorella, is free on Amazon Kindle right now, but you have to hurry, because it is only free until 11:59pm on September 17, Pacific time. Now, if you do grab it for free, please leave us a review on Amazon or Goodreads if you can, and once you have the Kindle edition of their watching. You'll actually be able to get the audio book at bargain price via audible. So do consider taking advantage of that if audio is more your thing. But anyway, today is not about their watching. It is about cold, black and infinite. By Todd Keesling, so we will get to that chat in a minute, but now a quick advert break coming in

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Michael David Wilson 3:05
Okay. Here it is. It is the final part of the conversation with Todd Keesling on. This is horror. So we did touch on the gods of our fathers last time that we spoke, but we didn't talk too much about the goat.

Todd Keisling 3:29
Oh yes.

Michael David Wilson 3:33
I mean, I'm wondering with that, obviously, what happened is a classic thing to happen in that kind of situation. But was there any reservation? Has there been any kind of backlash? Because it seems like when things happen to animals, there can often be more backlash than there is when things happen to other human beings. I

Todd Keisling 3:59
mean, I haven't heard anything that would, I would consider backlash per se. And you know, like, I know Becky, my agent was she was sad. She was sad about the goat. I've heard a lot of people say they were sad about what happens to the goat in that story, but no one like PETA isn't coming after me. For, you know, what happens to a fictional animal in a fictional story which is good? Um, no, no backlash, and I didn't really have any reservations per se, like, I would never harm an animal personally, like, I, you know, I, my parents had goats when I was growing up. And, you know, I've got cats and everything. And my very first novel, life transparent, actually involves a cat being unalived on screen. And I did get hate mail for that. For. Several years, rightfully so. Learn my lesson. We'll do that again. I try to keep animals out of it where possible, unless it serves a story. In this case, it did. My new novel that's coming out next year involves, you know, a dog does die, but also gets resurrected. So it's like it never happened, right? So, but typically I don't go for animal harm unless it again. It serves a story. And because Gods of our fathers, I want it to be a very folk horror, very, you know, you know, dust of the earth, kind of very primal story that really goes back to old ways, for lack of a better phrase. I know that's that's a bit of a, you know, catch phrase with me, old ways with devil spray. But I was writing devil streak at the time when I wrote the gods of our fathers. So there's to me, there's a little bit of overlap. They do exist in the same universe. There's actually a sequel that I wrote to the gods of our fathers called the puppeteer of salon that was released in October, screams last year from Kangaskhan publishing. And I kind of want to write another story that picks up where that one left off, and kind of circle back to what happened to Mary, but that Goat Man, it had to go. Sorry. And you know what happens to the goat is no different than what happens to goats in the Bible?

Michael David Wilson 6:47
Yeah, yeah. And I think the gods of our fathers, it marks a series of stories within the collection that deal with old school religion and gods. I mean, not not necessarily back to back, but you've got the gods of our fathers. You've got, we've all gone to crooked town that, certainly, for me, has that aspect in it as well. Yeah, we've got holes in the fabric. We've of course, got Geffen Gethsemane as well. So this is the section where it's like, right? You've got about halfway through the collections. And now we're bringing out my thoughts on religion. If it wasn't clear from Devil's Creek. If it wasn't clear from Devil's Creek, probably reread it. Yeah,

Todd Keisling 7:46
I want to, you know, just underline that a few times. But yeah, like to your comment. I mean, I'm I find ritual, the concept of a ritual, fascinating, because everything we do is ritualistic, whether we know it or not. You know, we wake up every morning to an alarm clock. That's a ritual. You know, it's something that we do repeatedly with intention. And you know, if you look at some of the old school beliefs and philosophies, magic and hermeticism and Gnosticism, you know, that's the equivalent of, you know, casting a spell really, like you've got, you've got your ritual, you Have intent, and you're exerting your will in the name of something, and that has always fascinated me. I don't practice it. I really dig the esthetic, you know, it's very this symbols and all that stuff. You know, runes have always, you know, I've always appreciated the look of them. And that's really what drew me to that side of things to begin with, and learning about it. So the gods of our fathers was, you know, one of the outcomes of that interest, in that fascination, here's a there's a girl that is trying to be forced into a Christian mold, and she really doesn't fit there. It's not what she believes, it's not what she wants, where her father's trying his best to turn her away from what she was raised in. And I really took you know, some some inspiration from growing up because Christianity, you've got 101 flavors, you know, you've got Catholicism, you've got Pentecostals, you've got Methodists, you've got Baptist. This. And, you know, I grew up in a Southern Baptist household, but I would also went to Pentecostal churches throughout my life, and which are terrifying, by the way, if you've never been to one, those are the churches where they they get up and dance and speak in tongues, and that is horrifying to a child. And so there was kind of this tug of war going on between my mom and my dad about what church I should go to and everything, or it seemed like it, anyway, and I drew a lot from that when it came to Mary's story, and like, well, what if it wasn't between two Christian dominations. But what if it was between Christianity and one of the other gods that the Christian God says you're not supposed to have beforehand? And that's where we really dig into, you know, the old gods of the world. You know, back when we were still tribes. And, you know, there was a God for everything. There's a god for harvest, there's a God for life, there's God for death. There's a god for the sun rising, God for night. You know, all this, everything had a god attributed to it. And if we take the concept of a ritual and ascribing intent to it, then who's to say that we couldn't make our own god, essentially? And that's that was the idea that really planted the seed for what the gods of our fathers became, and in keeping with that old, primal sense. That's why there's, you know, there's a sacrifice, there's an offering of blood, and taking those old concepts and framing it in a story that you know, in a present, in a somewhat modern time, that you know more people can understand and contextualize it that way, so it's more accessible. Was really the the intent there. And I didn't set out to make what happens with oats the goat happen, but it again, it sort of the story. It made sense that this is what would happen in this, you know, in this scenario that I've created. So rest in peace oats, the goat, yeah, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 12:34
And I think this is another one with a very satisfying end, much like after birth, you know, along those kind of lines. Because, I mean, in, in a way, that's something a little bit I Spit on Your Grave about it, yeah, no, yeah, yeah. See that, yeah. And, I mean, we spoke before about, you know, the the bad thing in this story, and that, you know, you walked right up to that line, but you, you'd never showed it. But there was no question in the reader's mind as to what had happened, which, which? I think sometimes, I mean, that can make it more powerful because you've left it now to the reader's imagination. Yeah,

Todd Keisling 13:31
I'm pretty lazy when it comes to that stuff, so I try to make the make the reader do as much work as possible. But I mean, I also wanted to be handled respectfully and not be make it extreme and in your face and just have no merit whatsoever. You know, to me, it, it was it fit with the character that I had created. And you know how vile and disgusting he really is. And also, just to show again, how abused Mary is, her father doesn't care about her, and her brother is an incestuous pedophile. And it's probably a spoiler. But, you know, trigger warnings folks, there they are there in the book. By the way, I should point that out, because, you know, the last thing I wanted for somebody to be hurt by something that I've written, if that wasn't the intent, yeah, so all the trigger warnings for that one, I think that's definitely one of my most uh, extreme adjacent stories. I would say,

Michael David Wilson 14:45
Yeah, I think so when Well, since we're talking about religion, we do have a question from Tracy Kenworth that I think is appropriate. To put in at this point. So she says My biggest writing struggle takes issue with growing up Christian, and I was shamed for writing horror by my pastor's wife. It's the reason I left church and have been reluctant to join any other even though I'm still a believer, did you have any problems with this? And do you have any solutions?

Todd Keisling 15:29
Uh, so let me, let me put it this way, writing, horror has never judged me. Horror doesn't judge me. Horror accepts me for what I am and for who I am and for what I do. It's never pointed at me and said that I was wasn't worshiping God the right way. Wasn't pointing at me and telling me that I'm a Satanist or I'm evil because I wear black. It's never judged me and so the question comes from a place of, you know, did I ever have trouble, you know, reconciling my faith with what I write? And the answer is no, because I cast that supposed faith aside. I'm not a believer at all. I tried to be and it didn't work. It just did not. Went against everything that, you know, I I believe in. It just, you know, it's not we're not compatible me and faith, me and religion in general. That being said, you know, I, I know that there are other authors who are of faith that write horror. Ronald Kelly is one fantastic writer, great guy. Mercedes Yardley is another one. Um, both of them write some very about, some very dark things, and yet they maintain a personal relationship with with Christ, and I respect them for that, even if I don't believe it, believe what they believe. And that's okay, you know it, and that's the beauty about horror in general, is like it's horror is almost tailor made for the outcast and the weirdos and the folks who don't fit anywhere. So I think it's awesome that she's, you know, I think it's awesome that she left the church first of all, and stuck with what her passion is. I also think it's awesome that, you know, you maintained your faith despite this person, this you know, pastor's wife, shunning you before doing what you love. I think it's awesome that you know she she stuck with it, but I'm also not the best person to ask. You know, there are other authors who, who are faithful, you know, who have stuck to their faith despite writing what they write, you know, Kevin Lucia is another one. He's very devout Christian, and yet he writes, you know, you know, he writes Charles grant esque fiction, you know, it, it's a it's a fine line, and I can see where I can see where that clash happens. You know, it's definitely something that's tough to reconcile, but at the end of the day, I think you need to look inside yourself and find what makes you happy, and what you know, what you think is true. And if something that I I'll end this this ain't this long winded answer on is, is a question, actually is, if the God of your faith condemns this passion of yours that has no victims and doesn't harm anyone. What kind of God is that to worship? Now I'm not saying that to make you question your faith at all. By all means, if you find you know, if you find peace through your faith, then by all means, please continue practicing. I That's why, you know, but I asked that question to really, you know, bring it to a fine point about your pastor's pastor's wife telling you about, you know, saying you shouldn't write horror, giving you a hard time about it. And again, I also I'm being very careful, because I don't want to say something that could lead you astray, per se, again, this is why I'm not the best person to answer this question. But look inside yourself and see what rings true, like the God that I was. Raised to believe in the you know that God, the God that I was taught to believe in, that loved me and so on and so forth, wouldn't care that you're writing horror like that. So, you know, if you feel the same way, then I guess it shouldn't matter, as long as you maintain your personal faith with, you know, your Lord and Savior and all that stuff. I hope that answers your question, and please don't hate me if that rubs you the wrong way. But you know, that's my take on it, as someone who's a agnostic, you know, recovering Baptist,

Michael David Wilson 20:38
yeah. And I think the idea of an all loving God, and then the idea of being shamed for you know, what you enjoyed, as you say, has no victims, causes no harm, that the two ideas are incompatible. If God is all loving, then that isn't how God would behave. And we have to remember, too that the pastor's wife is a human being. She's not God. This is her interpreting God in some way. And I would say that if it's an own loving God, then her interpretation is wrong, yeah. And

Todd Keisling 21:25
you know, really speaks more the the hypocrisies you see today of of mainstream Christianity, yeah, but there's a lot of things that what it teaches and and how people interpret those teachings that are contradictory, yes, but you know, I also don't want to again. I don't want to, like hammer at home and say religion bad, you know that that's my personal belief, you know. But I respect, I respect anybody else's belief and their right to practice it.

Bob Pastorella 21:59
I just, you know, and I think I've mentioned it before with with other writers that, you know, years I grew up in, you know, Catholic and I've since, you know, gotten away from religion and religion's man made, um, I've still, you know, believe in God. God has got me through some of the worst times of my life. Without that, I wouldn't be here. But I don't believe, and this is what I said, I don't believe my God is not the asshole that people make him out to be. And I think that if I if I'm happy and I'm writing things that that are thrilling and scary, and I know who I am, and I'm not putting, you know my self on the page. I'm creating a fictional world that doesn't hurt anyone. Then I think that, my God, even if he did care,he would be proud, because I'm creating something. I just don't think that that, that he, that God, they is an asshole. Yeah, and we need to get in if you're going to be in religion and God is so loving, then we, they need to get away from that, that concept that I don't know to me, it's just an Old Testament dead concept of hell and brimstone and it's just silly. It's just silly. Amen

Todd Keisling 23:35
brother Bob. But I guess what I would say to and I'm sorry I've forgotten her name already,

Michael David Wilson 23:47
Tracy. Tracy,

Todd Keisling 23:49
what I would say is that you already have your personal faith. You already have your personal relationship with a higher power, and you know you're not being struck down with lightning every time you write a horror story. And again, it's not harming anyone. It's not, you know. It's bringing you personal fulfillment. And create a fulfillment to continue doing that. Then I say, keep doing what you're doing. Don't cares what other people think you know, like, if you have a personal relationship and personal faith, then that's all that matters. You don't need somebody in a suit at a pulpit telling you what to believe. You know, believe what you need to believe, not what everyone else tells you to believe. Yeah, I am available for children's parties, by the way.

Michael David Wilson 24:42
Well, talking of children, type of children that you wouldn't want to encounter would be black eyed children, which brings us to solve for x, which is, again, it's, it's among my favorite stories. I mean. In it. This is a really fun one, even though, you know, it's bleak, you know, subject matter. I don't know if it says a lot about me that I'm saying this is a particularly fun one,

Todd Keisling 25:14
but it is a fun story. You know, I actually got to read that for the first time ever to an audience last weekend, and it had a good reaction. It's a very, it's a very creepy story that I wanted to visit the the old setup of babysitter home alone. You know, it's like, it's like, it's a little bit like when a stranger calls, but instead of the call, it's somebody at the door that shouldn't be. And I'm the concept and the idea of black eyed children, which, if you know, for folks who aren't familiar, black eyed children are considered to be like a modern cryptid, I think, like they the first story ever posted online came from a message board in the in the mid 90s and early days of the internet. And black eyed children are these pale, childlike entities that have black eyes, and they try to cross your threshold and they want you to let them inside your house, you know, it can be a house. The the original poster who first talked about it, said these kids came up to his car while he was, you know, back in the day when you couldn't pay things online. He went to pay his internet bill through a drop box at a, you know, after hours, and he was in his car writing a check, and these two kids came up and they wanted, they wanted him to open the door, you know, or put his window down, or something like that. And the more he looked at them, the more wrong they seemed. But he couldn't place why, and just the whole conceit of that is terrifying to me, and it's very uncanny valley, and yet at the longer you look at them, the more you listen to them speak, the more you feel compelled to do what they're asking, even though it runs, you Know, contrary to every instinct you have. So that's where solve for x came from. It actually used to be called the black guy boy, and I wrote it in a more simplified manner for, uh, scary stories to tell in the dark anthology years ago, and it didn't get accepted, and it just went in a, you know, in its folder, and I went on and worked on the next thing. But when Kevin at cemetery dance, you know, asked me if I had anything, you know, new stuff to include in the collection, that was one of the ones that I had been wanting to revisit for a while. So I rewrote it and made it, you know, gave it more of like a an adult approach, you know, to, you know, with the gore and everything, and you know more the awareness, I guess, the awareness of, okay, this is the setup for every horror movie ever made. What am I doing? Why am I doing this, you know, and gave it a framework for one of the most horrific things of all, which is algebra. I mean, I was terrified of math when I was a teenager. I still can't do math as an adult, but I respect it, and I and I respect the folks who can. But yeah, math used to terrify me. And you know, my interest in black eyed kids just all kind of came together in a fun little story about what happens if you actually let them inside when they ask,

Michael David Wilson 28:53
yeah. And as we're talking about kind of letting people inside. Have you ever had anybody come to the door and decided there's a kind of rungness about them,

Todd Keisling 29:09
salesmen and people from the local church? Yeah? Yeah. I have a I have a video camera on my doorbell, and I actually have a recording. Of when the last time we had somebody from the local Mennonite Church come to our door. And it's like they knew the answer as soon as I opened the door and they saw me, because I'm like, you know, black T shirt, jeans, I look annoyed, which is just my face and they already know the answer, but they ask anyway, and I just cut them off in the middle and just say no thanks and close the door. And the next I immediately went on Amazon and ordered a sign that said no soliciting, no religion, blah, blah, blah, put that, you know, outside my house, but I. Um, like, a lot of this probably stems from the autism and just not being a social butterfly, or at least outgoing, an outgoing social butterfly, like the idea of going into somebody's house and just knocking on the door fucking terrifies me. And that's more of a me thing. I recognize that. So anybody who can just go up to a stranger's house and knock on the door is immediately suspect to me, like, what is wrong with you? And it kind of, you know, maybe that's more of a generational thing, because I also don't like answering my phone when it rings, like people should know better than to call me, just text me. So, yeah, there have been time like, we had somebody come to the door, like late at night, like two or three in the morning, and they were drunk. But you know, it was one of those situations where you're like, you're kind of eyeing the baseball bat at in the corner, like, Okay, do I do I have a plan for this. I never really thought this would really happen. You know, what do I do if they try to force their way in? You know, I'm a I'm a tall guy, and can seem imposing, but really, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm not coordinated. I'll throw, I'll probably throw a punch and pull something and be laid up for a week, you know, but it's the easy situations where you think you're prepared until it actually happens. And so yeah, people who come to my door unannounced freak me out just because of the way I am, and people who come to my door trying to sell me something that I'm not interested in buying, and they just won't listen. They won't listen to me saying I'm not interested. They just keep going. They kind of creep me out, because, you know, kind of feels like, almost like they're an automaton at that point. I don't know, I'm rambling.

Michael David Wilson 32:04
There seem to be more door to door sales people in Japan than there ever were in the UK, but they sell such big purchases sometimes, like I've had numerous people come to me to see if I want to buy a house. Well, if I'm looking at buying a house, I'm not gonna be like, great, because you knocked on the door. You're the one

Todd Keisling 32:34
I've been waiting all this time for somebody to come to my door. Yeah, and

Bob Pastorella 32:39
your eyes get real big, you're like a house. Oh, man, I've been thinking about that for about just now. There are

Michael David Wilson 32:47
also many companies in Japan where you can buy a plot of land, and then they can custom build the house for you, but then this will take a number of years, but because there's so many companies, if I ever want to do that, it's like I'm the type of person who I'm going to research meticulously that you're not gonna get a instant sale. It's like you've already turned up at my property. So obviously, have somewhere to live so I don't urgently need one. Maybe I'm not

Todd Keisling 33:23
there. It's such a substantial investment of money. Like the the idea of somebody coming to your door and just randomly asking, Hey, do you want to buy a house? Like, yeah, let's just do it. Like, okay. Like, you don't. They don't. I mean, I don't think they have a you guys don't have credit scores over in Japan, do you?

Michael David Wilson 33:41
Um, I, don't know. I think I don't know, is the answer that. I'm sure there are some sort of credit checks and things, but

Todd Keisling 33:53
like, the concept of somebody doing that here in the States just blows my mind, because it's like they're not checking your credit first and not doing this diligence, they're just showing up on your doorstep, somebody

Bob Pastorella 34:05
who's taking Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, just way too fucking seriously. You know, it's like the leads are good. We gotta knock on doors.

Todd Keisling 34:14
Sorry. Coffee is for closers. Bob, yes, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 34:21
they sell houses. They try and get me to switch my electricity provider, internet providers.

Todd Keisling 34:30
We get up a lot roofers, especially when there's like a hail, like hail storms in the in the area, we get roofers that come through electrical providers trying to get us a switch. They like show up asking how much your bill is and all this shit. And like us, none of your fucking business. Get off my porch. Lately, it's been people trying to get you to sell your house or. Refinance your house, and which I can't imagine anybody doing in this shitty market right now, but it's just weird. So weird, all of its weird to me. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 35:17
I got a text from my partner. They have a day saying, because we've got a camera as well, saying, there's a there's a strange old woman who just rang the apartment door. But I don't really want to answer it, so I wrote back quickly, then, then don't answer it. Never answer the door if you've got a bad feeling as to who is on the other end. So it

Todd Keisling 35:39
should have been like, Oh, my God, she finally found me. Do not open the door.

Bob Pastorella 35:46
Yeah, see, like, down here in the south, we get people and it, it's, it's funny because I did this. It's like, we get people selling, like, food. They come in and they like, Hey, I've got and they have, like, a little cart that they have, and they go through the apartments, and I remember it was like, it was, it was kind of like, it's covid. Was that's the pandemic was kind of winding down. Yeah, I got it. I was home, and I got a knock on the door, and I answered the door, and it's this black guys, you know, and he's well dressed and everything like that. And you could tell, like he's got some products in there. They got little stickers on them and everything. So he's got some good products that he's made. But my only thought was, as soon as he was like, he goes, Hey, man, just, just knock on doors. Man, I got some bread to sell. Man, got some Banana Nut Bread. I got this right here. I said, Don't you realize it's a panda. Wait, did you say Banana Nut Bread? And he was like, he goes, Yeah. And he showed it to me, and I said, I go, Can I hold it? And he goes, Yeah, yeah, man, it's sealed up and everything like that. And it was just so tender, you know what? I mean, it didn't feel like a rock. And I was like, How much is this? And I'm like, I don't have that much cash. And he was like, he goes, dude, man, five bucks. I'm like, I want this. You hold on to it. I shut the door. Winged out $5 bill. Here you go, banana bread. Thanks, Bob,

Todd Keisling 37:03
that's how you're gonna die.

Bob Pastorella 37:06
I'm not dead yet, but that bread was good.

Todd Keisling 37:09
Some black eyed kid is gonna come door to door, selling, selling banana bread, and you're gonna let them in.

Michael David Wilson 37:19
Yeah, I just have a distrust of a lot of people. So if someone came selling food, it doesn't matter how good it is, there's gonna be a voice in my head being like, they poisoned it,

Todd Keisling 37:30
like, what did you do to this? Yeah, why are they selling it so cheaply? Yes,

Bob Pastorella 37:35
that's, that's urban I mean, it's urban legend. I know that people have gotten sick from things like that, don't get me wrong. But I mean, a lot of that is that, you know, the Halloween urban legends and stuff like that. And, uh, you know, I've read up on that because, I mean, we believe that stuff because your mom, you know, because your mom told you it was true. Yeah, you were and you were 12, you know. But you know, in the reality of it is, there's more kids that are hurt during Halloween by car accidents than any other thing, and that is a tragedy, not to bring it down on a downer note, but yeah,

Todd Keisling 38:10
I was just marveling how you just had that in your pocket ready to go.

Bob Pastorella 38:14
I did. I did a whole uh article, a series of articles about it for, uh, for a magazine. It's no longer in print, okay, but yeah, so I had to do a lot of research on it because they wanted, they wanted the skinny, so I got

Michael David Wilson 38:29
it. Bob is very passionate about defending his purchasing of banana bread at the door.

Todd Keisling 38:35
Those judgments do that. You know, banana bread's awesome. Banana Bread was good. Now

Michael David Wilson 38:43
I'm glad it worked out for you. That

Todd Keisling 38:45
needs to go in the title of this episode of religion, cold, black and infinite and banana bread.

Michael David Wilson 38:53
But I mean, when you had the drunk person knock at your door at two or 3am so Did, did you go to the door, or did you just watch this from the camera, and

Todd Keisling 39:05
actually, before we had the camera? So it's pretty chilling, like I was already awake, because I'm a night owl, but it was still chilling to be like in the house awake when everything else is asleep outside and your door to bell rings, and then the knocking starts, and it's this drunk person looking for their friend that whose house is like several, you know, several doors down, but you know, still it's like this chill runs down your, you know, down your neck, and you're like, Who could it be at this hour, you know? And then you start, especially when you're in the business of making shit up and imagining things, your mind kind of goes nuts with it. And on top of the fact that anybody who just comes up to a strange. Door freaks me out. You know, all that's compounded, and I'm thinking, you know, can I get to the baseball bat fast enough if I need to which the baseball bat is a relic from my first apartment, and, you know, I had shitty neighbors, and I thought I'd, you know, home security, basically. Um, so, yeah, it's terrifying. Well,

Michael David Wilson 40:24
the next story, we've all gone to crooked town. We did touch on this a little bit previously, but I mean, obviously the legotian influence is a more apparent one, but there was certainly something of it that also brought to mind the lottery by Shirley Jackson.

Todd Keisling 40:49
That's interesting. I That definitely was not on my mind when I wrote that one, but now that you mention it, I can see that that's odd. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 41:00
So what was on your mind when you wrote this one?

Todd Keisling 41:05
I I wanted to experiment with form. I wanted to I wanted to take a stab at writing a prose poem, because that's something I've never done, and it was different. I was in the process of drafting what would become The Sundowners dance, and I got sick one weekend, and I felt bad that I wasn't writing the book, and so I had also wanted to experiment with, you know, form and prose poem. So I just started writing it very that whole story is an experiment. And I had had this fever dream of a kid and a well, and him making a wish. For the longest time that that story, what was called Make a wish. And I realized going to the editing phase, you know, this has a lot and, you know, this is basically a prequel to, we've all gone to the magic show. So I decided to change the title so that it is more in line with that. And I was revisiting legatti quite a bit. You know, the town manager, one of my favorite legatti stories, that was definitely on my mind. And also I just, I wanted to try and do what legatti does, which is take something mundane and infuse it with the elements of a nightmare. So this was, it's probably my most legatian story, other than we've all gone to the magic show. I actually sent this, the story to John Paget and asked him to pass it along to Tom just as a thank you. I don't know if he actually did, which is cool, but, you know, I don't really have more to say about it than that. It's, it's a it was an experimental approach to storytelling. I like what came about with it. It wasn't. It was very different for me to write, simply because I was thinking of it in terms of lyricism first, as opposed to what's actually happening. And I love the way it all came together, like I didn't really know what was going to happen, how it was all going to loop back around to magic show until it did. And

Michael David Wilson 43:50
what was the gap between writing The Magic Show and then crooked town?

Todd Keisling 43:56
Uh, gosh, I wrote magic show. I want to say it was either end of 2018 or end of 2019 2018 sounds more accurate because I made that sale to to to vasterion Just a few months after um so magic show came first, and then crooked town came later.

Michael David Wilson 44:29
And speaking of magic show and lega Ian Paget, when did you see your first mannequin? You go ahead and off the cuff question, but

Todd Keisling 44:44
so there was a department store in my hometown called Daniels, and it was a family owned operation, and I they had, this was a shop from like, the 50s or 60s, and I remember going in there with. My granny, and then them having, like the the old school mannequins that actually had, like, face paint and shit. And they had the facial expressions, and I always found them terrifying. Pretty much everything scared me as a kid. But those, especially, just because of the whole uncanny about uncanny valleyness of them. They also had formless mannequins that were human shaped, but they didn't have any facial features. They were just blank. I remember seeing those and being creeped out, so that that's my first memory of seeing mannequins that I can recall. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 45:41
do you still find them creepy to this day,

Todd Keisling 45:45
don't you?

Michael David Wilson 45:46
I'd say, particularly if John Paget is there that. I mean, that's a multiplier.

Todd Keisling 45:53
Yeah, that is a multiplier. He, he definitely, you know, rolls a 20 with the buff on the buff, the creepiness factor of a mannequin, for sure. Yeah. I mean, they're still, I don't really find them scary, per se, just unsettling, and it is entirely related to the uncanny valley principle.

Michael David Wilson 46:16
And so this is also the closer to the collection, I believe yes, and so what was the reason for having this as the final story?

Todd Keisling 46:29
It's pretty close to me, to my heart, because it was my that was my first professional sale, and I feel like I accomplished there. It just for me. It was, it was firing on all cylinders. It was, you know, the story was top, top notch, in my opinion. Of course, I'm going to say that, but I mean it, the creep factor was there, and it's also just this philosophical puzzle. It has the feel of a nightmare to me, and in a lot of ways, it is a nightmare, and it's just got this it's a puzzle as well. It was a puzzle for me to kind of figure out, like what was actually going on, and as I slowly figured that out there really excited they just drove down the street. I don't know if you noticed that, as I figured the puzzle out, I've, you know, just it made me more excited for people read it, because I don't know, I just feel like I achieved everything I wanted to with that story. And it also just felt like a good closer to the collection, yeah, like, uh, like, here's where we're going to end this, and here's a, you know, a look at where things are going from here. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 47:59
I like as well that we've all gone to the magic show as a line could describe the experience of having read your collection. So it works on numerous levels.

Todd Keisling 48:11
Yeah, I guess it does. I actually didn't even think about that, but you're right. And

Michael David Wilson 48:15
I mean, that kind of leads into another one of I would say you're lighter and more enjoyable in the sense of like fun light, light pieces, the smile factory. We did mention it a little bit before, but we didn't really talk about the structure and the pacing, which I think is masterful as Thank you. Kind of get to learn more and more about Marty Godot, who, I mean, we're told Originally, the first line, because it's the section title, is we don't talk about Marty Godot, and by the end, we find out why. Yeah,

Todd Keisling 49:00
yeah, we're not allowed to talk about Marty Godot at all structure wise. I mean, I didn't really go into it thinking about structure per se. It wasn't at the forefront of my mind. I wrote that because I was pissed off, shitty job situation, and just the soullessness that seemed to be, you know, a quality of the parent company that owned the company I worked for, and just how it didn't matter. You know what was achieved if we didn't, you know if it didn't move the needle a certain distance for them, it wasn't, it was like, well, we might as well have not done anything. It was an executive, basically, a. Fucking around with the numbers to ensure that an entire division of people didn't get a bonus because they were trying to save money and shit like that and more. I realized that I didn't want to work there forever, like I thought it was. It was a stable job. I had insurance, I had good it was good money, but I didn't like what it was doing to me. It didn't like the way it was making me feel. And I really struck upon this notion that the higher you climb a corporate ladder, the less human you become. And smile factory was kind of born from that. It was born from being told by my boss that I need to smile more because I make people uncomfortable. Yeah, it was fun to write, cathartic to write, but where it came from was not a, you know, not a happy place. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 51:03
and you've written a number of stories and longer pieces that are more, as we said before, about the old gods and religion. But do you think you might revisit in a longer form, kind of your satire of corporate life.

Todd Keisling 51:25
I don't know if it would be in a longer form. I mean, the, there's a character that is recurring in a several of my stories going back to college, and he's kind of the, he's kind of the the all father of sorts, of this, of this universe where he used to be a computer programmer, and he contacted something through his code, and it basically served as a bridge to this other dimension, where these, old this old entity, this the benefactors of smile factory exist, and he was able to bring them into our world. And that's, that's who Charles Boyd is. I've first came up with him in a short story I wrote for class in college, and he just pops up from time to time. It's not planned. It's, you know, he's, uh, he also ties in smile factory and happy pills tying together. Um, but I would like to maybe one day have a collection of stories about that, and call it the Boyd cycle, because I always like that, that conceit of a title, like the haster cycle, or, you know, the Cthulhu cycle, or whatever. But I don't know, I don't know if we'll ever see something long, longer than smile factory, just because I don't think they're I can't think of a US, a way to tell a story set in that universe that would be interesting for the length of the novel, um, or, I think would be cooler to have, you know, people write stories in that universe for an anthology, or something kind of like they did for Laird's, uh, children of old leech, um, but yeah, I don't Think we'll get anything longer out of that. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 53:22
I greatly enjoy your satirical pieces in the child's void cycle, if we're to call it that. So if the collection happens, if the anthology happens, I will be first in line for those.

Todd Keisling 53:36
Thank you.

Bob Pastorella 53:39
It speaks to me, because I've spent so long in that world,

Todd Keisling 53:44
that is the

Bob Pastorella 53:46
I have a tendency now to where if I have to have a serious conversation with someone who's higher up than my manager, then I insist that they do not use corporate ease. Yeah, and they look at me like, I'm I'm crazy. I'm like, just talk to me like I'm a human being, and you will get, you will get human responses if you want to talk to me in corporate ease, I am fluent, and you will not like it. And they're like, Okay, so in other words, totally informal.

Todd Keisling 54:20
You don't want to circle back and synergize, yeah,

Bob Pastorella 54:28
I can. I can do all that. It's just I don't, I don't, I don't like it, and I have to deal with that stuff on a daily basis. I just want to be treated like a person,

Todd Keisling 54:38
yeah, like the something I tried to touch upon and smile factory is just how much of that corporate language and group think really, it really does seem like a cult at times, and like they change, they change language, or they. They create new words to basically just diffuse the meaning or to obfuscate it, so that it suddenly means two things instead of one thing, and it's all, it's all just a bunch of jargon created to cover up whatever the fuck they're really saying. It's pathetic. It's this corporate double speak, almost, yeah, the

Bob Pastorella 55:32
for, and we just got away from it. But for, like, for two years, the word was cadence. And every time that someone said the word cadence, I would, if we were in a meeting and they were and they said cadence, it was like, and if they brought it, they would say it like five fucking times. And so, and what I would do is, every time they said cadence, I would start going. And so one of them was like, Why do you do that? Every time that they they start talking, and it's like, that's kind of, that's kind of, you know, annoying. I say because they don't know what the word cadence means, yeah. And like, well, what does it mean? And then I give them a perfect definition of it, and they're like, well, that's kind of what they meant. I'm like, Well, why didn't you just say routine? Why don't they just say, Hey, this is the way that we do things. Instead of saying, this is the cadence, you don't even know what it is. You're not even counting it properly,

Todd Keisling 56:24
because routine has a negative connotation. Bomb.

Bob Pastorella 56:28
Yeah, it's on, then it's it's like, you know the proactive? What's the act? What's the opposite of proactive? I'm like, active. I mean inactive, reactive. Where we go with this, which way are you using the word? But yeah, I get it, man, that stuff spoke to my soul and, uh, made me realize I hate my job more. So thank you.

Todd Keisling 56:50
I'm glad I could be of service.

Michael David Wilson 56:54
I didn't think that realization was possible. Bob, I thought you'd already reached peak hatred. But Todd has shown you that just when you think you can hate no more, there's another level to it,

Bob Pastorella 57:07
and then I found a whole new level that's true.

Michael David Wilson 57:12
Well, we have covered all of the stories now. Over the course of the four episodes,

Todd Keisling 57:20
did we touch upon Gethsemane? I don't remember if we did.

Michael David Wilson 57:24
We touched on it in the first half, if you if you want, we can, no,

Todd Keisling 57:30
it's okay, okay. I, you know, it's been a month since we talked. So I, you know, might as well have been two years ago. Guys. Sorry.

Michael David Wilson 57:39
Yeah, no, get Gethsemane, pretty brutal. What do we even say the commentary on on religion? Let's say that. Yeah,

Todd Keisling 57:55
I kind of feel like it speaks for itself.

Bob Pastorella 57:58
I enjoyed it. I loved it.

Todd Keisling 58:02
Thank you.

Michael David Wilson 58:03
I want to know what the biggest light bulb moment in your career thus far has been to make you a better writer.

Todd Keisling 58:15
My longtime editor, Amelia Bennett, working with her has made me a better writer. Period. She's extremely insightful and calls out things that I would never think of, but she's absolutely right, and she completely changed the way I look at plot and story and pacing and all of the fundamentals, like, I have a degree in English and communication, and, you know, I've studied all that, and yet she told me she taught me that I knew nothing, and she was absolutely right. So I always give her kudos for making me a better writer. That was my light bulb moment. Was working for her or working with her rather.

Michael David Wilson 59:10
So what specific things about plot and pacing did she teach you?

Todd Keisling 59:16
So she helped me rewrite my first novel. She gave me a really intensive developmental edit on and it just completely changed the way I look at things from you know, when you when you finish writing, and you pull back and you look at the whole picture, she was really good at pointing out things that would work better this way and explain why. And you know, to to really give you an example, you know, a hard example of that is so my first novel, and the monochrome trilogy in general, deals with some. Um, like philosophical concepts and a, for lack of a better word, and it is No, by no means a magic system, but a magic system and reap the logic of it. Like she really hammered home the fact that you can't, you can't not know how something works, and just have it work and apply like even if it's you know, something that is easily explained away. If you don't understand it yourself, then the reader's not going to understand it, or they're not going to understand it well. And you know, I was just getting my start, and I had never thought about it in those terms. So having her point that out to me was a revelation, really. So now, anytime I'm doing an edit of my work, or I'm reading over it. If there's something where I can't, if I can't answer the question, How, then I flag it as something I need to revise or explain somehow. And even if I don't, even if it doesn't, the explanation is something that I don't want to reveal in the story. I still need to understand how it works to justify how I can't explain it in the story, if that makes sense. So that was probably, that's probably the best example I can give you, but it completely changed the way I approach rewrites. You know, how I shape a story and what happens with character, especially if it's, you know, from one character's perspective. Yeah. So kudos to Amelia,

Michael David Wilson 1:02:00
yeah. And how many books have you worked together on? Now

Todd Keisling 1:02:05
let's see, the only book we haven't worked together on was The Sundowners dance. And that was just a availability, really. But we worked on all the monochrome books together. We worked on Devil's Creek together, not really the short stories. I usually, you know, tap her expertise for the longer stuff. She's really good at breaking it all down, like for Devil's Creek and for the monochrome book, she actually created an entire index of names, places, concepts, things, all of it so that I had it to refer back to. And basically it was kind of like her list of things like this doesn't have an explanation. I don't know what this is. Well, then I need to go back to the text and review it. And you know, if I can't, if I can, and again it goes back to if I can't explain it to myself, then it either needs to be cut or it needs to be explained somehow. So we didn't do that for The Sundowners dance, but she's going to be helping me out with Revelation road when it's done.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:20
Yeah, and I'm, I'm wondering how this works when you know you're working with Amelia, but then you sell it to a different publishing house, and you've also got Becky looking at and championing your work. I'm wondering, I guess, sequentially, who looks at it at what stage? What is the order there.

Todd Keisling 1:03:41
So typically, like, I would work with Amelia privately, and then I would take, once we have a manuscript that I'm happy with, then I would submit it to a publisher, then I'd submit it, you know, then I would send it to, you know, whoever it needs to go to next, with Becky, I'm actually gonna get Becky's feedback and Amelia is feedback at the same time or relatively within close proximity to each other, so that I can then take all their feedback and dive into a second draft. And you know, I will. I'm curious to see what they hit upon and agree in terms of, like, they all hammer on, you know, hammer down the same point. And also, I'm eager to see what they differ on, because then, you know, then that becomes a decision for me to make, like, okay, you know, how can I work this? Work out this feedback, so that, because if it's good feedback, and I anticipate it will be, and it gives me a lot to think about, and I have to read to approach the scene or the issue in question from a different angle. I don't know. I'm a weirdo. I like that stuff. I like being able to step back and, you know, object. Look at something and pick it apart and fine tune it like Devil's Creek had five drafts and sundowners dance had four before we ever sent it out to anybody. So yeah, truth is, I don't really know what that looks like, but we're gonna find out.

Michael David Wilson 1:05:24
Yeah, and I mean, it must be quite satisfying as well, that as a writer, you're typically sending it to Amelia and Now Becky after the first draft. So you know, some people, they might solo, write free for five drafts without any feedback, but it's going to them fairly immediately. Yeah,

Todd Keisling 1:05:50
that's a it's a new process for me, like typically, I will read through it myself, do a quick edit to iron out any typos, but anything thematic or development related, you know, I let it fly, and then I see what what she says. And then, you know, my wife will read it, and I'll see what she says. And, you know, once I've had, you know, a cup, you know, professional set of eyes, look at it and get feedback there, and I revise it, then I'll send it out to the beta to beta readers. You know, my I got a group of trusted people whose opinions I value, and, you know, I'll take their feedback into account. And we keep doing this and doing this until it's a polished gem, as opposed to a chunk of rock.

Michael David Wilson 1:06:37
All right. Well, this has been absolutely fascinating, as it always is. Thank you. And I want to know if you have any final thoughts for our listeners and viewers. Maybe a different final thought to go,

Todd Keisling 1:06:56
yeah, that was all said. And Jess folks, I love you. I No, not really. I mean, thank you for reading my work. Thank you for listening, thank you for being awesome. Be excellent to each other.

Michael David Wilson 1:07:15
Thank you so much for listening to Todd Kiesling on. This is horror. Join us again next time when we will be chatting with Theresa Matsuura of Uncanny Japan. And it is a fascinating conversation in which we talk about her 30 years of living in Japan, Japanese folklore and a lot more, if you want that ahead of the crowd and indeed, every other conversation ahead of the crowd. Become a patron@patreon.com forward slash, this is horror. Okay, before I wrap up, a quick advert break in 1867

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Well, that about does it for another episode of This is horror. Before I go, a quick reminder, once again, that they're watching is available on Kindle for free, but it is not available for free for long. So do grab that now before the offer expires on September 17, and it is the first time in the almost three years since release that they're watching has been available for free, or, in fact, discounted at all, and there are no future plans to run this offer. So this is the time to get it, but this is also the time to wrap up the episode. So without said, Take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have a great, great day.