TIH 601: Dan Howarth on Last Night of Freedom, Territory, and Survival Horror

Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to This Is Horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode, alongside my co host, Bob Pastorella, we chat with the world's best writers about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more. Today on This Is Horror. We are talking to Dan Howarth. Now, Dan Howarth may be familiar to this as horror podcast listeners, because he is the original co host of the podcast. But not only is he a former This Is Horror Podcast co host. He is an accomplished writer from the north of England. His work has been published in both print and online, including at the other stories by hawk and cleaver podcast in which his stories have been downloaded over 100,000 times. In april 2021 Dan released his debut short story collection, dark missives through northern Republic press. He was also short listed for a British Fantasy Award in 2019 as an editor and shortlisted for a northern debut award from new writing north in 2021 Additionally, a few years back, he released a fantastic novella of isolated Arctic horror territory. And most recently, he put out his debut novel last night of freedom, and that is primarily the reason that we are talking to Dan today. But before the conversation with Dan, a quick advert break in 1867

Andrew Love 2:11
the young Samantha gray marries the infamous Captain Jakes, unleashing a series of brutal horror in this epic splatter Western from Death's Head press man Sam, by J, D grays, is a rip roaring tall tale of revenge. Drags a coffin full of gold across the hellscape of reconstruction Texas and explodes at the top of a mountain. You better read this one with the lights on.

Bob Pastorella 2:38
House of bad memories, the debut novel from Michael David Wilson, comes out on Friday the 13th this October, via cemetery gates media, Denny just wants to be the world's best dad to his baby daughter, but things get messy when he starts hallucinating his estranged, abusive stepfather, Frank. Then Frank winds up dead and Denny is held hostage by his junkie hemp sister, who demands he uncovers the cause of her father's death, will deny defeat his demons, or be perpetually tortured for refusing to answer impossible questions. Clay McLeod Chapman says, House of bad memories hit so hard you'll spit teeth out once you're done reading it. Pre order, House of bad memories by Michael David Wilson and paperback at cemetery gates media.com or an e book via Amazon.

Michael David Wilson 3:22
Okay, with that said, Here it is. It's Dan Howarth on This Is Horror.

Dan Howarth, welcome back to This Is Horror Podcast. Thanks

Dan Howarth 3:38
for having me, guys. It's a nice little reunion this good to see and hear from you both again. It's been a little while,

Michael David Wilson 3:44
yeah, and so long term listeners will, of course, know that you are the original co host of the podcast. So it is always a pleasure to get you back on the show. And in fact, the last time that I spoke to you. It was about a year ago when we were talking to David Moody as part of the house of bad memories launch. So as you may anticipate, I want to know what have been the changes, or what have been some of the pivotal moments for you, both personally and professionally, in the last year?

Dan Howarth 4:22
Wow, big question. I think probably, personally, changing jobs has occurred about six months ago now, something like that for me, which was good and now gone fully remote, which is a lifestyle choice in and of itself, I feel like I've reclaimed some control over my time, which is nice. I know you're big on time management, Michael, so that's the kind of thing that will appeal to you, good and bad things of losing your commute, though, so you know, no more sitting in the Mersey tunnel screaming at my steering wheel. Up, but also less time listening to podcasts and audio books. So swings and roundabouts on that front. But I think as an overall mental health choice, yes, working out pretty well. So far, I would say number one cause of stress was commuting. So glad to glad to stitch that and the associated costs, which is nice. And then I guess I'd say in terms of kind of the writing front, yeah, just, just always busy. Why? I'm, like a writing magpie. I've got so many things going on, so many things I want to do, you know, working on last night, freedom as well. Like, you know, obviously I've had edit, edited that in the time since we've spoken and then brought it out, I've spent most of 2024, writing another book. So written like 150,000 words on a book to get like 80,000 words out of it, pretty much so extremely wasteful experience. So all that time I've saved commuting. I've thrown away basically writing the same book twice, which I do not recommend. And, yeah, just writing, writing, writing, really, it never stops, never ends. It's just every day get the words done, carry on motor and that's just how it is.

Michael David Wilson 6:18
Yeah, and it's interesting what you're saying about having now gone fully remote and that having benefits for your mental health, I'm wondering, though, and thinking back to when I was full time working from home, are you kind of having to do things to make sure that you Get out the house, both for your, I guess, mental and physical health, because I found that if I wasn't careful, it's like, hang on a minute. I've basically been here for about a week, and that that isn't how we evolved. It certainly wasn't how we were meant to evolve anyway. Yeah. I

Dan Howarth 6:58
mean, I think things are different now to how they were in the pandemic, when almost everybody was working fully remote, like all the time, you know, certainly office based jobs. You know, everybody was either furloughed or, you know, working from home. And thing then was there was nothing else to do. Now, all you missing out on is going to an office, you know, I get up, I get my daughter at school. I do the school run in the morning. I walk the dog, like some of the days, my wife's here as well, because she's doing admin days for the business that she runs. I'll get out in the evenings, play football, play sneaker, see friends, stuff like that. You know, you but you've got to force yourself to make sure that you keep routine, because it, yeah, I mean, the pandemic with dark days for for everybody, and it's because we're shut up at home, you know, you've got to make sure that your house doesn't become a jail cell, really, to some extent, because it's easy to do. It's easy to say, Ah, you say, you take my daughter to school today, to my wife, you know, can you walk the dog for me? I've got meetings or whatever, and then before, you know, it's like seven o'clock at night and you've not left the house all day. So it's easy done. You have to be proactive, I think, and careful with your mental health, definitely to to make sure that you've got routines and you've got outlets and stuff like that as well. Because, you know, nobody wants to regress back into your shell. It's great staying indoors sometimes, you know, 70 mile an hour winds here today, it's been great stay inside, but you can't do that every day. You know, you've got to be careful with yourself.

Michael David Wilson 8:34
Yeah. And as I recall before, when you were working at the office, you were getting a lot of your writing done in the library. So presumably you're now writing your fiction mostly at home. And so what is the kind of difference in terms of dynamic and the creativity there? And do you miss any aspects of, I suppose, writing in a different place that's separate to where you're getting your day job done.

Dan Howarth 9:07
Yeah, sometimes, I mean, I, you know, don't always write up here. This where I work, and, you know, this where most of you know, my cool stuff is books and all that kind of business. This where I can screw myself away to the, I think the thing about kind of teaching myself the right in the library or a cafe or wherever it was is that I have the ability to do it wherever I need to now, which is a skill in and of itself. It's like, I do have the ability almost to flip the switch and it's like, right, it's right in time. It doesn't matter if I'm going in the next room and sitting down there and doing it on my lunch time instead of going to a library. If anything, I know there'll always be a free desk, and I won't have to lose minutes, you know, pushing students out the way to try and, you know, get somewhere to sit with my laptop. But I also, you know, because we've still got family commitments and stuff, so like my daughter does the class. Is like 90 minutes there. Well, I'll go and sit in the cafe, you know, at the theater where she's doing all that, and just sit and write for that time with a cup of tea or whatever. And, you know, I'll drop her off at other activities. And sometimes it's more beneficial to I'll even just sit in the car with the laptop, just tether it to my phone, and just sit and type in the front seat, which is like making the most of the time. But when it gets to the winter and it gets dark and you're sitting in the front seat of a car illuminated only by a laptop screen, it's a bit of a weird look. But the point is, the words are getting done, and yeah, I've just trained myself now to write it's right in time. It doesn't matter it's 12 o'clock. It doesn't matter if I'm in the library, it doesn't matter if I'm in the office. Doesn't matter if I'm at home. 12 o'clock, bang, that's it. It's lunch time. It's right in time. It just gets done. It's yeah, it's probably the thing that I'm most proud of in terms of, like, resilience and kind of mental health practices and mindset and things like that, is just that ability that I've trained myself to do it. It's automatic, and it doesn't matter where I am anymore. I can sit on a train down to London like I did the other week and just write because it's that time, and I can just just turn it on now, and I'm grateful that I've persevered with that, because it's stood me in good stead of being productive. Well, it's

Michael David Wilson 11:27
like Josh maleman says that you know whether you have a good or a bad writing day, when you then look at the draft after you can't really discern between the two. And having that habit, having that consistency, I think that's key. And it's been really interesting to see your journey and to see the parallels between the both of us. Because, I mean, even when we started, This Is Horror Podcast, I think we were both really we were only writing when we had that optimal routine down. And now, if I'm queuing in a supermarket and a good story idea comes to me, or even if a bad story idea comes to me, I'll write it down quickly. You know, really trying to maximize that time because, you know, and any time that can be done, that you can be writing. I think for me it should be really,

Dan Howarth 12:24
yeah, and it's, you know, people always say, you know, at what point can you call yourself a writer? I would say, well, at any point that you're writing consistently and you've got, you know, a writing habit that works for you. It doesn't matter, you know, I would write and write and write. I've got novels and novels stored, you know, OneDrive or wherever in the cloud it is. These days, I would write them just for myself, like I had this conversation with somebody else the other day. He was saying that they're, you know, struggling for sales and all that kind of stuff. And to my mind, it's not really about any of that. It's just the sheer joy of doing it. I would write, just to write those stories down and just to complete them. That in itself, is the joy for me, the joy of the first draft, the joy of completion, the joy of getting it down, you know, and as such, in order to be able to have that feeling, you've got to commit to one chair, no matter what chair it is, fingers on keys, and off you go, because it is as simple as that.

Michael David Wilson 13:26
Yeah, I've had numerous similar conversations recently. I don't know if there's something about, you know, the winter or particularly with it being a politically turbulent time at the moment, but there's a lot of people who they seem to be really dispirited with their writing journey. And I mean the way that it is for me. I mean, there's so many kind of thoughts on the topic. But I think if you have any choice as to whether you can or can't be a writer, if you, if you cannot be a writer, maybe you shouldn't, which is a really odd thing to say on a writing podcast, but I think this is not, this is not an easy route, particularly if you're doing it, you know, for financial means, that's kind of what I'm talking about here. And so I think, as I've said before, if you can find joy in the pursuit and the act of writing itself, then you have won. You know that means, every time that you write, you win. I think too, you know, linked to the kind of financial aspect, this is very much a marathon rather than a sprint. So, you know, if I look at the books that I have out, like, how's the bad? Memories at the moment, which I'm enormously proud of. I think it's the best book that I've written. But actually, in terms of sales, it's not quite there with The Girl in the Video. So for some writers, they would say, Oh, well, that that's a failure. But for me, it's like, well, as this is a long game. It's only been out barely a year at this point, and the way that I see it, and you know, not just through optimism, but having observed for over a decade other people's journeys. Every time you release a new book that is almost a ticket to the lottery, and it only takes one to really tap into something, and then the sales of everything else, they start to rise too. So I think there's almost this tendency to look at a long term endeavor with a in a short term way. And of course, you're going to be depressed or a little bit dispirited, and that is before we've even kind of tapped into this tendency to compare ourselves to other people. And when we do that, we always compare ourselves to the people who are a little bit higher than us. It's never like, let's compare ourselves to the person a bit lower. So I think, you know, I'm not sure exactly what the answer is, but I think you know, a good starting point would be trying to find joy in the writing itself. That is gonna set you up for winning. Also, I don't know, the more you can distance yourself from it purely as a financial pursuit. Yeah, the better, because there are easier and there are quicker ways to make money. Yeah,

Dan Howarth 16:51
of course. I mean, the way I look at it is, you know, writing isn't my career, it's not my day job, it's not my full time income. You know, we all have hobbies. So there's people who go out and spend hundreds of pounds on going to gym every year, or, you know, season tickets at the match, or buying a new guitar every year, or whatever. Well, maybe my outlays are, you know, for my hobbies. Hey, I don't really treat Ryan as a hobby. I don't see it as that way, but for my kind of leisure activities, is investing in somebody to read the audio book or the cover art or copy editing or whatever it may be. And those are my expenses. And yeah, they all come at once, but I would imagine that I probably only still spend the same amount on pursuing getting a book out, as some people might do, on quite an expensive gym membership, or buying a guitar or something like that, as I say. And with that in mind, I just see it as well. That's my expense on something that I would do anyway, you know, if I didn't spend the money on that, if I wasn't a writer, I'd probably, you know, get a season ticket, you know, or, you know, whatever it may be, I'd still spend that money. So I'm just investing in myself in that way. And I don't see it as money lost. It's, it's money spent to pursue something that I enjoy doing in the same way that other people invest in other things they like to do. It's, it's as simple as that. But I think is, as soon as you make writing a numbers game, you're always destined to be disappointed. And I would strongly recommend that people don't do that, because the second you start doing that, or, as you say, Michael, looking at others, it's one sure fire way to make something that should be fun miserable. You know, it's, it's about, it's just quite a negative way to be. And I try to not fall into that trap as often as it possibly can.

Michael David Wilson 18:50
Yeah, yeah. And it's a complicated one too, because, of course, both of us, we are doing this professionally, in the sense that we're not doing it, just as a hobbyist. We are doing it, you know, to make money. But the point that I'm probably quite inelegantly trying to convey is that you can't make the money the number one priority if you make the creativity and the writing the number one priority, then almost in a bizarre combination of serendipity and irony, you will actually make more money. So yes, you should make financially savvy decisions. You should do your best to make it a success, but you shouldn't compromise the art and the writing itself, and that's why I say this is a long game there, there. There may be some books that hopefully you won't make a loss, but you might not make as big a profit as you do on others, and that's why you know you're kind of playing this. Aim, and particularly if you're early into your career, you're throwing ideas out, you're throwing different modes out and seeing what sticks, what there is an appetite for. And if we become really successful, and then we can get to almost this mode that we see a number of actors get to where they're doing a project with more financial concerns, and then they're doing one just for them and for the creativity and the art.

Dan Howarth 20:33
Yeah, well, that's the that's the actors way, isn't it? By the time they get to that point, it's or the filmmaker's way. Usually it's one for one for them, as in, one for the studio, and then one for me as the individual. But I mean, you know, you you talk about being a long game, so I'll give you an example of of how that kind of plays out. And hopefully this will give you some reassurance for for house as well, which, you know, obviously is a really good book and deserves more readers. But I mean, like so I released dark miss is my short story collection in 2021 and it did okay. Like, you know, got good reviews and people read it, not as many people as I think I would have hoped, but enough. So it was, you know, that's good in the month of October this year, I joined a promotion called terrify your tablet, whereby you can promote your books on discount. And in that month of October, it sold probably three times more than it had sold in the three years prior to that in one month, and it out sold territory my novella, which I wasn't expecting. I thought, well, I dropped the price of both. I put dark missives down to free, but that kind of it was periodically free throughout the month. And even when it wasn't free, people were still buying it, and it was getting read on Kindle Unlimited, so it was getting loads of page reads and stuff. I thought, our territory will take off here, but it didn't. It was dark missives. So three years later from being released, it's, you know, it's well and truly earned out any expenses I ever had for it, any expectations I ever had for it. And that was a book that, you know, had a decent, but not stratospheric launch yet three years after I'd kind of almost not forgotten about it, but just accepted where its levels of sales were as a project. It took off out of nowhere, and I just totally wasn't expecting it. So, yeah, it is a marathon, and this, you know, there's nothing to say that. You know, something isn't going to come of a book that you've released years ago. You know, it's, it's out there, you've, you've achieved that milestone, and good things can happen because you put the work in and you enjoyed the process, and now it's there for people to enjoy. And it might not be on launch day. It might be many years down the line. You know, publishing is a very immediate business. You know, big, big publishers, they want to see chart top and success on day one. Well, that's it you got. And I think there's expectations in indies as well, when people are producing their own books and self publishing and whatnot, that it's either a hit straight away or it's never going to be and that's not always the case.

Bob Pastorella 23:17
I think that there seems to be, like, a big push for people wanting to do quantity. I see that a lot on on social media is you have writers that it's they they want to push out more and more and more product. Because I guess they feel like, hey, whatever little success I have, if I have more of me to go around, then financially, I will probably do better. I think that that could, that could be a good strategy. But to me, it's all about the quality. If you look at like one writer, for example, our Levine, you know, he, he only wrote, like maybe six novels, you know, and if it wasn't for Rosemary's Baby, he would have never gotten the success that he had. He would have been, you know, just probably another mid list, you know, science fiction writer. But he did get that success, and it allowed him the the freedom, and all it takes is one that's all it takes. And from whatever, I don't think he even really got that great of a deal. He kept writing because it was a sense of accomplishment. I'm gonna take this idea and I'm gonna twist it and turn it around, and I'm gonna be real clever in a way that I only me. Can be only only I can do this. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, present it, and we'll see if we get it published. And boom, it get published. Effort, wives, boys from Brazil, sliver, on and on and on, you know. And so when you got a writer like that, another one, Thomas. Paris, it's like, literally every film, I mean, every book he's ever written has been made into a film, with exception of the last one, but, I mean, that's probably coming so, you know, it's quality, and that's it ebbs and flows, you know. But I see a lot of writers, it's like, you know, it's like, they put out like, three books in a year. Was like, Fuck, man, I ain't got that kind of time. Hey, how you doing that? You know, I wish I had that kind of time, you know. But, I mean, if it's good, it's good. But I really think that that's, you know, people get bogged down in the nuts and bolts of the business, and they're not. They're losing out on the pleasure of writing, the actual sense of accomplishment that comes when you create something and you finish it. Man, that's a feeling. You can't beat it. I mean, you can, but you know, you know what? I mean,

Dan Howarth 25:59
yeah, you've got to find the balance between the two. You know, there's, there's a joy in seeing your book in people's hands and, you know, hearing them enjoy it, or, you know, seeing reviews. It's a different type of joy. It's not as pure as the creation of it. You know, it's, it's a nice little feeling. See money coming in from Amazon, rather than money going out to Amazon in your bank account. You know, that's a nice feeling. It's not as good a feeling as sitting down and writing, but it's not bad. You know, finding a balance between those things is is exactly where we need to be, but it has to start with the joy of writing, certainly for me, because that's why I started doing it in the first place. It was, you know, it was the joy of getting something down, getting something completed, trying to find something to say that felt worth saying, you know, and then it spirals from there, you know. I want people to read it. Oh, I want to sell a few copies. I want it to look like this. I want it to be in a book shop. You know, you have goals that spiral, but they all come from that initial need or that initial feeling. I want to get something out into the world. I want to get this story out of me and see it through.

Michael David Wilson 27:14
And so talking about getting things out into the world, that is a fantastic time for us to jump into talking about last night of freedom, which for me is absolutely one of the best books of 2024, I mean it, it absolutely shook me. And, you know, I was addicted from start to finish. I wanted to keep reading. I wanted to keep finding what happened like the pacing is absolutely masterful. You won me over with the concept and the ending was just as satisfying as it could have been. So I mean, we spoke again with Josh maleman, who I seem to be name dropping like, like, I think I'm gonna win something. It's not intentional. But he talks about, you know, all of us have it in us to write an all timer or a classic. And for me, this is kind of an instant horror classic. So let's begin, as we often do, what was the genesis of this book? Well, first

Dan Howarth 28:28
of all, thanks for the kind words, Michael. You know we've known each other a long time, and you know you're a person who I know isn't impressed easily when it comes to books. You know, we've disagreed in our opinions over books for many years, in some ways as to what our favorites are, and we've had many conversations. So for you to give me praise like that is hugely gratifying. And thank you very much. It's

Michael David Wilson 28:54
yeah, yeah. Let's clarify. I don't give kind words. I give honest words. I mean, Jesus Christ. You've worked with me as an editor. There have been times that where there has been very few kind things that I have said, but I think you know that honesty that helps us get to places. My style isn't for everyone, but you know for those who are into it, I think you know that there's progress and there's advancement. So for me, there's nothing kind about what I just said. It is completely honest and how I feel about the book.

Dan Howarth 29:33
Thanks, man. No, that's great. And you know, I know there's no bullshit there. So yeah, it means a lot. Put it that way, yeah, to get on to, like, the genesis of the book, I mean, fuck, it came from stag deuce. You know what? Stag parties? You know, we're all men. We've all been on one, right, you know, and there was one in particular that I went on. It wasn't long. It was, you. Must been at least 10 years going on, at least 10 years. It was somebody who I knew from university, and quite a few of us, we flew out to somewhere in Eastern Europe. We're not going to give names and locations, because don't give too much away. But yeah, so we flew out there, and, you know, you kind of get there, and a lot of these kind of weekends, it feels like they're almost designed to make you end up having to do something that you don't feel comfortable doing, like whether you're the stag or whether you're just there, like you always seem to there's always somebody who's doing something they don't want to do almost every twist and turn of a stag party. And for me, this was we went. So we got in a mini bus from the center of this town, and we went out to this place, like a farm, and they had this underground shooting range where they had automatic weapons. So next thing you know, I'm stood at the block, and I'm holding this gun and this automatic weapon, and it's got all this recoil, and it's just firing, pumping round after round out. I'm like, handed it back to the guy and this other people high fiving. Fuck yeah. Can you believe we just did that? And I'm like, I can't really believe I just did that. Like, I spent my whole life just thinking these things fucking stupid. They're pointless. You know? I'm not gonna get on a big gun control rant, but it's, it's a very British mentality. We don't have guns, you know, we use them for work when people are farming or in the police at certain circumstances, and you're in the army, and that's about the limit of when you have a gun in this country. So they're very alien objects. And whilst other people were clearly feeling very pumped up, and you know, they were certainly enjoying that experience. For me, I thought it was horrible, to be honest. It just I couldn't have enjoyed anything less. And that just kind of got me thinking as to, you know, these are the kind of things that we as men are kind of made to do. You know, the atmosphere on these weekends is, it's really pleasant, you know, it's not relaxing. It's, there's bravado, you know, I suppose Dick measuring in some way. It's, you know, who's the biggest man who's got the biggest pair? You know what? I mean, it's that kind of attitude, and I don't like any of that. And I just stood there, like, you know, and later on, a few people who were there, like, got into a fight, like, just in the middle of this town, and that, just like me and my other mate who had gone with were stood there literally in a kebab just watching people who we've known for years brawling in the street, and we just let each other went. I just want to go home like and it's just such an alien experience. And it just made me think, you know, for people who live for those weekends and people who really don't, and it just made me think of kind of the different sides to to men, and the different sides to those weekends, and some of the aggression and the bullshit that comes along with them, but also some of the kind of self reflection and introspection that it can bring on you as well. So that was the ultimate genesis of it, and I think it was just bubbling away from that point on, to be honest, inside me,

Michael David Wilson 33:26
yeah, there are so many kind of like influences or touchstones or films and books that I recalled While reading it, and whilst perhaps not one of the most obvious ones. I mean, since you've gone there in terms of the commentary on masculinity, there's definitely something a little bit Fight Club about it in in terms of, you know, what is it to be a man, and this primitive nature and this one upmanship.

Dan Howarth 34:03
Yeah, that that's definitely intentional, like, maybe not fight club, but certainly that, you know, obviously it's a well known discourse around that kind of book that, you know, the comments made on masculinity, and I think, you know, they're probably more valid today, even than when that book was written. You know, what does it mean to be a man these days? And you know, I think every everybody, every gender, every race, you know, every religion, is questioning their place within society at the moment. And I think men have to look harder, or should be looking harder at themselves than than any other group right now, you know, it's we're behind so many problems, and we seem to be bringing more rather than be bringing solutions. So, yeah, you know, Fight Club is, is a huge influence on us both. And I know you're a fan as well, Bob and and, yeah, just you. I always find myself, you know, my instinct has always been to shrink from those kind of situations, that kind of aggression and that kind of confrontation, whereas, you know, you don't only have to go into any city center on a Friday or Saturday night, and you see people who rise to it. And I find that fascinating to try and get into the minds of those people and to understand what makes them do that and what makes them tick. And I think to some extent, last night, freedom was my attempt to try and do that, and to understand what is the very dark side of masculinity. And you know how it works, really? Maybe try and break it down a bit in some ways.

Bob Pastorella 35:41
Yeah, is that that? I've never read a story about a stag party in England, in England? Is that pretty much indicative of how they typically go? I mean, because, I mean, it sounds like that's, that's the case. I felt like this was just like, this particular specific stack party was like that. But I think it's just a, it's just a bunch of guys that got the groom, the best man, some groomsmen going out and having some some drinks, and, you know, playing, playing pool. And, you know,

Dan Howarth 36:23
just getting drunk, yeah, there's, there's generally more to it in the UK, like and this. And this isn't everybody's experience, but you know, a lot of them. And, you know, I could go into live pool, probably even now, and see people dressed up on a stag party, you know, and they, they do go dressed in a very provocative, you know, outrageous way, you know, you see all sorts of crazy stuff, and you see them circulating on social media where people have gone arguably too far in terms of demeaning people through Fancy dress. But particularly over here, there's, you know, it seems to be getting, like, bigger and bigger and bigger. You've got to do more and more and more. It's like, you travel further, you dress in a fancy dress costume that's more outrageous, you know, you beat beat up the locals. You know, you do whatever it is, you know. And I must admit, I've never been on one where anything truly, truly awful has happened, like you know that this one here that I mentioned going out to Eastern Europe was, was the worst one. And it as I said, you know, you see people that are new from university fighting in the streets, and you just think, what the hell is going on? But I've never seen that on any others, you know, I've been on ones that were borderline civilized, you know, borderline tame. You know, certainly my closest friends who have been been on their side parties. Nothing out. He just has ever happened. But over here in particular, you speak to anybody, any man who's been on one, and they've all been on one that's been awful in some regard, whether it's, you know, just generally, kind of being a bit degrading towards women that, you know, they've either paid for or haven't in situation or violence, or, You know, just, there's always, everybody's got a story about one that has just been vile. And, yeah, it is. It is a theme over here, you know, definitely,

Bob Pastorella 38:32
and I definitely didn't mean like they were, they're all end up where you have to, you know, you have to fight a whole family who's built a tradition. I meant, like the initial part, I mean, because, to me, that would be like the ultimate thing to do in over here, I guess in in Texas, the ones that I've been on, you end up bored at a strip club, you know, or it's a private party with, you know, with, with adult entertainment and, you know, and so that's like, hey, yeah, that's, you know, everybody's getting drunk and everything like that. And, yeah, we've had some, some, you know, I've been on some really, mean, me and some friends have been on some that have were really, really bad. It was like, hey, that, that's a lot of cocaine. We need to go. That is, that is a lot of fucking cocaine, you know. And it's like, That's a fucking kilo dude. We I am not going down. I don't care how much we love him and everything see tomorrow, man, we gotta go. We gotta go, you know. And so I've been, I've been in some, some really crazy situations, but, uh, I would, I would probably welcome a stag party where you just sit around and just drink and play pool. You know, I guess I'm getting old. To me, that would be like just a night to catch up and talk and laugh and cut up. And that's. I felt like, you know, that there was some, you know, this, this type of camaraderie, camaraderie, especially when you have these, these, you know, these individuals, some of which sound like that, they they really haven't seen each other. Are they kind of drifted apart, and that's, you know, a good way to bring people back together, especially for a joyous occasion. But in, in their case, it doesn't end up that way. So, but yeah,

Dan Howarth 40:25
yeah. I mean, that's how they should be, but they very rarely end up that way. In my experience, you get, you get a good chat on the flight, or travel into where you go, and then basically all hell breaks loose. And that's, that's kind of how these things go when you arrive, really so, and then everybody just, you know, makes the way home, zombified and hung over the next day. But you've raised your point there, Bob. And this is what I'm getting at with with stag parties. You know, we all reach a point where we go that's enough for me, yeah, and I keep going on Pablo escobar's stag do, by the sound of it and see the kilo of coke. There's your limit, Bob,

Bob Pastorella 41:05
yeah. I mean, it's, we've, I've walked into a bachelor party. We were, like, an hour and a half late, and it was at someone's house. And just pull it up in the driveway, and my buddy's like, there's a naked girl in the front yard. And I'm like, No, yeah, there is, wow. And the neighbors are out too, boy, this is gonna end quick, you know. Hey, what's up? You know? And it's just, like, it's just, you know, crazy. There's too many people. It's like, we're in a hell somebody like this is your whole wedding party. What's the deal? You know? And it's like, it's just, it's not a bunch, it's not four or five friends getting together. There's like, you know, 100 people, but it's a bachelor party. Yeah,

Dan Howarth 41:57
that they're just dreadful. They're just stressful experiences, generally, and I felt like I'm in a good place. Now, you know, I've done I've done my time. My friends are married. I never have to go on one of these things ever again. I'm getting to the point now where I feel like I don't have to do anything. I don't want to do, I don't have to go anywhere. I don't want to go I can just this was me writing out my system of all the times that you're in these shitty situations doing stupid stuff, or somebody's doing stupid stuff, and yeah, I've exercised those demons on the page, and it feels good. Yeah, I'm glad to put those days behind me that it's a stupid way to live your life, sometimes, being a man, and that's one of the things I wanted to get onto the page. And hopefully I've managed it, because I think there's something in there about stag parties that anybody who's ever been on one will relate to. Hopefully,

Michael David Wilson 42:56
yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's part of the appeal, just how relatable it is. I mean, in terms of Bob's question about here, who is this typical for a UK stag party? I mean, as you alluded to, it really does depend on, you know, the friendship group, and who whose tag it is. But I would say what you've presented is very much kind of typical as to part one of the night. Yes, now luckily, part two of your story is not typical of the second part. But yeah, I feel like it will start off relatively harmless. Okay, everyone's at a pub. We're having fun, and then there's a turning point, as there is in all good stories, and the stag night goes completely off the rails. You know, it's when they decide, let's go to the seedy part of town or this club that we never, ever go to. I'm sure that'll be fun. Well, it never is. No, yeah. Like, like you also mentioned, there seems to have been a tendency, I guess, in the last decade or two, for people in the UK, it's no longer good enough to have the stag party within the UK. They're like, let's go to Europe, or let's go to America. Let's infect another country just trying to live their lives with our obnoxious British behavior and one upmanship. And yeah, you have taken that to kind of the next level. It's like, well, what if this unwanted group turn up in an area where they're like, Well, we're gonna really have some fun with you. And in fact, we haven't actually told people the elevator pitch. Hopefully they've got the gist. But just to kind of give the elevator pitch here the log line. What is the story about Dan? So it's

Dan Howarth 45:07
four, like, kind of friends from university, you know, in the kind of 30s. So the lives have moved on. They get together for one of their stag parties up in a remote part of the Lake District, which is a scenic but can be quite cut off area of the UK, and they find themselves pulled into kind of a local ritual whereby people who live in the local area on their stag parties, they hunt people for sport. And part of that came from the fact that the the origins of a stag party actually came from it would be you go out with your friends, and you go into the woods and you hunt deer, or whatever it may be, and you cook it and you, you know, kill it and you eat it. And that's your that's your bonding experience with your friends. So I took that and thought, well, what if people in this particular area where our four protagonists are hunt people as part of that tradition, instead of hunting deer? So yeah, the hell breaks loose. Let's leave it at that, for fear of too many spoilers for people. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 46:24
and the most obvious kind of comparison to me was a little known movie called caliber, which I know we're both fans of, but I think as well, at the moment where this kind of survival game element is introduced. There's initially a very un American Werewolf in London vibe. It's like, oh shit, we are in the wrong pub. But then as the game occurs, there's almost something a little battle royale about it, because now it's everyone for themselves. And, you know, you can say that you will die for somebody, but it's like, well, when it comes down to it, you know, will you really, are they that good a friend? And I think that's

Dan Howarth 47:16
the the question that, like the heart of it, you know, obviously the the log line on the front is, you know, one weekend, one hunt, one survivor. You know the kicker is, it's easy if there's four of you and you're being pursued through the forest, and all you have to do is get you, Get yourselves plural, home. The whole point of this is only one of them will be allowed to go home alive. And at that point, you're looking at the people who are pursuing you and thinking, well, I've got no chance with them. But then you start looking at the people that you're with and thinking, Well, you know, which of these people can I rely on? And which of these people am I faster than, stronger than, smarter than and we don't often and nor should we really look at our friends in that regard, I would say, certainly not in the callous way that you would have to look at in this situation. So to be honest, rather than being chased, it's that only one of them going home alive that was the key bit that kind of piqued my interest when I was thinking of this idea, because you do put yourself in that situation and think, Well, how far would I go in order to preserve myself over people I've known for decades? And I think it's an interesting question to ask, and it was an interesting one to answer,

Michael David Wilson 48:41
to be fair, yeah. And I think you also anticipated a lot of the, I suppose, obvious ways of trying to get out of this. So to begin with the phones, it's not a spoiler to kind of, is it a spoiler to say some of the things events? Yeah. So, you know, the phones are out of bounds. Let's say they have been locked up somewhere, you know, to make sure there's no distractions. And also, you know, and any kind of easy means of just being like, right? We're gonna leg it have disappeared too, and as the entire village, or the entire town is in on it, you couldn't really run and run far enough in that time. I know maybe, maybe, if one of the characters had been Usain Bolt, it's like how we've got a problem. He has literally bolted, as his namesake would suggest,

Dan Howarth 49:47
was it wasn't a distance runner, though, to be fair,

Michael David Wilson 49:52
do very well getting to the local supermarket and then

Dan Howarth 49:59
then he's got. Asked, yeah, at that point, yeah, that was important to me, to be able to, you know, a remote setting is one thing, but to fence them in enough to make it, you know, they had to confront the people who are following them. They had to confront each other, to come to construct that kind of ring fence around the characters, to me, was very important to put them in that kind of pressure, pressure point, you know, of, you know, we're going to boil this down now to, you know, it's not us versus them, it's, it might be US versus us. And I think that is, you know, it's important to construct a situation that was plausible and believable, that puts people at odds with each other. And that's, you know, hopefully something that has been successfully done in the book. Because it did, you know, I did try and think of every way out of this and give a decent, plausible and proper way of making sure that it was shut down so that people had to, had to confront each other. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 51:08
and in terms of realism and really anticipating, well, how would people be? I mean, one of the lads on the stag night, he reacts like, you know, after they've got out of the situation, like, what, what a fucking laugh. What an absolute riot, what a joke. Because I think if you think about if you're in that situation, you know, assuming that you are of sound mind, you're probably not gonna be like, right, let's kill each other. Then that's what we've got to do. You're gonna think somebody is winding me up, and it's gonna take a lot for you to realize, no, this is a real situation we've got here.

Dan Howarth 51:55
Yeah, exactly. You know, I think, I think also, because it's a stag weekend, you expect pranks and silliness. And, you know, it almost feels like it wouldn't be beyond somebody to arrange something like this to, you know, shit up the people who they've taken on this weekend. So I think laughter at first in the face of something that's stressful and dangerous is a normal reaction. It's certainly probably that probably would have been my reaction, like a nice one that's funny that, and then all of a sudden that, you know, they they have an event which will say, which hammers home that actually people aren't playing here. And at that point, you know, the novel kind of switches from you lose a lot of that juviality, those those kind of humorous moments certainly slow down at that point, and you realize that actually these people aren't playing, and there are lives at stake. And it felt important to me to have that moment. But when I was trying to think of what my honest reaction would be, I think first and foremost, I probably would have laughed and gone, you got me, which was why I had to ride it in. Because, yeah, yeah, I think quite a few people would share that. Hopefully. Anyway, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 53:20
yeah. And see now you've got me thinking, and I think we have seen things like this in horror movies before, a kind of alternate version of this story where actually it is a joke, but you've got some fucking loose cannon that they immediately get out and he stabs his friend, and now you've got to deal with that, then you would, would be an interesting story. It's a different story. But I, yeah, I kind of want to see last night of freedom too, which is a completely different takeout. How are they now going to get out of this situation?

Dan Howarth 53:57
Yeah, it's that is actually a good idea, to be honest. It's it's a little bit like milk and cereal. Have you seen that film on YouTube? I

Michael David Wilson 54:07
have not. No. I will seek it out after

Dan Howarth 54:11
it's somebody made it on $800 and it's about like two YouTube pranksters playing pranks on each other that eventually get more and more kind of serious and sinister, but check it out. It's like, it's only an hour, but it's really cool. It's a great concept, really well delivered, actually, but, uh, but yeah, you're right. It could have, it could have gone either way, but I wanted to take it. What in the direction ISO was more horrible, really, to be honest.

Michael David Wilson 54:42
Yeah. I mean, you've written, as I said, one of the best books of 2024 so it was a very good direction to take it in indeed. Thanks.

Bob Pastorella 54:51
Yeah, that that point that you mentioned earlier, and I'm not going to spoil it, but that point when you realize that. Ultimately, this is not a game, you know, it's a game to someone, but it's not, you know, to our main characters. It's serious business. Up until that point, I felt as though, because it seemed like, you know, we have a community that is involved in this tradition. And I always, I had this feeling of, you know, ventures the game in the back of my head, not as, not as in, hey, I'm gonna throw a bunch of pranks. But who is the one who has the reckoning. You know? I feel like, if you've seen the movie, the game is, you know, the person is, it's Michael Douglas, his character has a serious reckoning with of his life. And so I'm like, that that was the angle. I was like, Okay, if this, if this is like the game, then who is it that is the focus here? But then you, you, you shattered that illusion completely, and it is like, it's I it once I got to that point, it's like, I'm pretty confident that I finished a book, like, within the next hour and a half, you know, it was just like, wow. Like, oh, it's not like that. It's like this. And I'm like, Holy shit, here we go. We're off to the races. So yeah, for me to take a book like that, and it has four, actually more than that, first person narratives, which I don't like, but you nailed it. You knocked it out of the park. And so I'm, now, I'm gonna start reading more Malta multi, first person narrative books. But, yeah, that was, you know, and I didn't, yeah, it didn't take me long to finish it, man. And it's like, this is like a two sitting book, so you just go right,

Dan Howarth 57:00
right do you awesome? No good to hear. Bob, thanks, man. But yeah, it was important to me to get as many perspectives as possible on what was happening. And I always, kind of, I was kind of like that, like I saw it in, like, the Game of Thrones books or Song of Ice and Fire, or whatever. You would always get the events from like different people. And I'm fascinated by narratives where you get that so something will happen, but you'll see it from almost everybody's different point of view, and they all see what's happened in a slightly different way that creates some ambiguity, and it creates some tension in that way. And I've always wanted to write a book from those different points of view to see, firstly, if I could do it, and secondly, because it is effective, if I could, you know, get it into play. Basically, yeah. So I was pleased with that. And I think of the four main guys, I think Ethan was probably the most fun to write. He's, he's a bit of a he's a bit of a bastard, but also he's kind of, he's kind of fun too. Like, you know, you write in from somebody who's not your experience, because he's, you know, he's, he's very money, then he's very privileged. So, yeah, that was, that was a fun one to write that had its own benefits, right? His perspective, I think. But, yeah, it's, I would, I would recommend. You know, I'm trying to think of some that are, that are similar Bob, but I think first person narratives like that in particular can be so effective if it's done right, you know, it's immersive, hopefully.

Bob Pastorella 58:42
Yeah, I definitely found it that way. Is it was a really good way to get into each character, and, you know, immersively. And in this type of story, you need that perspective, you know, I can't, I can't imagine it being written in third person. I just, I can't, I can't even fathom it.

Dan Howarth 59:05
No, I don't think it would have worked, to be honest, I genuinely don't. It's there's too much distance. I think if you, if I'd have written it that way, I think you needed to be you needed some of the monolog and the internal thought behind some of the decisions that are being made. I think if you lack that, it would have been a cold novel. And I don't think it would have been as effective to be honest,

Bob Pastorella 59:30
right? And you need that intimacy, and you kept every voice distinct in the speech patterns. And, yeah, matched for work. Man, it was great.

Dan Howarth 59:42
Thanks. Appreciate it. I'd like to need to extend some thanks to Aubrey Parsons, who narrated the audio book as well, for bringing each of those different individuals to life. Because the you know, it could have been quite samey, I guess, if he hadn't nailed it. But. Yeah, respect to him, because he's, he's a master of his craft. He's, he's delivered the good audio book. It has to be, sir,

Michael David Wilson 1:00:05
yeah, you're not gonna get a same me with Aubrey Parsons. You know, my introduction to him being with David Moody and in fact, his first David Moody book, I think he was narrating a woman from Leeds. That was his starting point, which was a quite ambitious for a gentleman from Wales, but he absolutely does it. He can do He can do all the accents, as we say, You tell him which one, and he'll do it. He can do the Liverpool. That's a favorite of Bob's. And, yeah, probably due to London as well. But I tell you to go back to different perspectives. I mean it, it was very ambitious and almost daring in the way that you're like, right? We're going to have multiple first person perspectives in terms of the main party. We're also going to throw in a few chapters with third person perspectives, with the locals. And, you know, in the hands of a lesser writer, this may have absolutely fallen apart, but it's like you kind of got the benefit of every single perspective or way in which you could tell a story is kind of unconventional, and yet it has worked.

Dan Howarth 1:01:31
It is interesting, really, because I had feedback from different people. One of them said to me, said, drop two of these perspectives, like, don't give us first person from everybody, because then we get too much information. And I juggled that for quite a while, actually, and thought about doing it differently, and I was like, No, do you know what? I'm going to stick to my guns here. I've written it in the way that I wanted to write it. And I'll, you know, this is a hill. I'll die on this one. And then I got other feedback from somebody else who said, Oh, drop the perspective of the locals. We don't need it. Well, to my mind, one of the things I thought was quite important, really, was to make sure that they weren't two dimensional individuals to understand could to see them only see the pursuers, only through the eyes of the pursued, gives you like, almost like, a flat perspective of them, but to see their snippets of their lives away from this to find out What type of people they actually are, I thought just gave them a bit more character. And they might not have been the most action packed scenes, but every scene has to have a purpose, and they were two very clear character scenes to my mind, and just added a bit of depth to the story. That's certainly what I was trying to achieve with them anyway. And I thought they were necessary, so I kind of battled the opinions of beta readers and whatnot on that one. And, yeah, I think, I think, overall, made the right decision. I wasn't sure for quite some time when I was going through the edits, particularly about the perspectives of the locals. I wasn't 100% sure about that, but I stuck to her guns. And do you know what people seem to be enjoying it? So maybe got instinct one out for once, which is nice.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:28
And did you know that this was going to be multiple perspectives early on? Was that something that came kind of later into the process?

Dan Howarth 1:03:40
And yeah, to be honest, I knew by the fourth chapter, because the first four chapters are all told from in, from the perspective of each of the four main characters. And at that point I thought, Well, maybe not everybody's going to have an equal say, but everybody will have another say, if that makes sense. And so yeah, I knew at that point. I mean, I knew who, who kind of the the main perspectives that I wanted were going to be, but I thought it was important to give the color and the consistency of letting everybody have a turn, really. And I think once I've done the first four chapters, I felt confident enough to be able to continue it throughout the book, really, man,

Michael David Wilson 1:04:24
that's great that you landed on it so early. Because, you know, I know with some people, they'd write the entire story from one perspective, and then they'd be like, this is missing something. Oh, yeah, is missing another. What? Five perspectives, and then you have to redo it. I mean, you know, it's not actually that uncommon to realize my book is told in the wrong perspective or from the wrong point of view. Now I've got to redo it. And, you know, it's kind of like you said before you're. Writing you or you've written this book this year, 80,000 words. It took you 150,000 to get to it. But from what you're saying here, it sounds like as much as a book ever can be, that this one came out quite clean. It was quite fully formed to begin with. Yeah,

Dan Howarth 1:05:20
yeah. I mean, that's exactly why I've had to rewrite this book this year. I wrote it in the wrong perspective, and even now looking at how I've written it, because I wrote it in third originally. Now I've written in third, in first. Sorry, now I'm looking at it thinking I might need another voice in here so that one has been more of a struggle. This one, yeah, kind of flew out largely fully formed, which was beneficial. And I wrote this at a time when I was in plaster as well, so I broke on my wrist, and it was painful to type. So I don't know if that helped me put some adrenaline into the words, I don't know, but I was sitting down for weeks on end type, and it was hurting me to do so so I don't know if, if that helped to I'm not sure I'd want to break my arm every time I'm going to write a book. But, yeah, it's maybe I added a little bit of pep and a little bit of adrenaline to it, because I, yeah, it was difficult to sit down at the keyboard for a couple of weeks at one point. So, yeah, it was straight strange. It just came out like, you know, there was no real structural edits that needed doing. I think I moved one chapter kind of earlier into the book. And that was about it, to be honest. It was, yeah, mostly came out as is, in terms of, certainly in terms of the structure anyway, which was a huge bonus, because this year has been a tough novel writing year, rewriting the same book twice would not recommend,

Michael David Wilson 1:06:55
yeah. I mean, breaking your arm, it's something to have in the toolkit, but it's probably not something that we would advise. That isn't the writing advice is like Bloody hell. This week, there was some weird writing advice on this, if in a rut, break your arm and try again. But, I mean, I can see how it could have aided the process to a point because, because you can't type as quickly, as forcing you to think slower, to consider the word slower, added to which, I mean, you're writing an angry book. Well, I think if my arms broke, I'm gonna be pretty fucking angry. So there you go.

Dan Howarth 1:07:41
I mean, it got me in trouble, this book, clay as so broke my wrist. They kind of, like they sent me home in like a, like a splint, so it's like a removable splint. And they said, come back in two weeks and we'll, we'll check on it. So everyone said it was coming. It's not coming. Yeah, so they sent me home, and then they said, come back in two weeks. We'll check on you. And then I'm sure it'll all be fine. Came back in two weeks. It was different. Doctor. And he was like, Well, I want to X ray you again. He did. He went, This is worse than I thought. You've got to go in a plastic cast now. So fucking man, I couldn't drive so I couldn't do the school run, couldn't take my daughter to stuff and put huge pressure on the family. I broke my wrist playing football, which at nearly 40 is a bit fucking embarrassing, and so signed off work for a week, and I was like, Well, what am I gonna do if I'm not working during the day I'm gonna write. So I was sat and I'd like, twisted myself so could keep my arm in a straight line in this plastic cast type, and it hurt like an absolute bastard. And I was getting told off, like even my mum was like, why are you writing now? Like, you should be resting your arm. You don't have to work. And I'm like, I really like this book that I'm writing, so gonna do it anyway. And people just like you're an idiot, like you should just be resting. But, yeah, it was just, it just came out. So yeah, I used, like, my week sick leave to help add some words to this book. Why not? And I don't regret it. I mean, my arms mangled now, obviously, you know, it'll never be the same, but, but, yeah, it was worth it. It's fine. It's cool. It's gonna be done. Sometimes you you know, you need an outlet. And I just carried on. It's the most rock and roll thing I've ever done.

Michael David Wilson 1:09:36
Yeah, I relate to what you're saying. I don't necessarily think it's something we should endorse, but I'm very bad at taking a sick day to just be sick. It's like if there is writing to be done. You know, it kind of goes back to Jonathan. Jan says it's good because, and I don't think this is what he meant it to. Be used in but it's like, look, I'm taking this day off work. I might as well try and be as productive as possible. Yeah,

Dan Howarth 1:10:09
absolutely, yeah, totally, totally agree with that. Yeah, absolutely. And it was, it was painful, it was pretty stupid, but the book came out pretty well, so I'm happy.

Michael David Wilson 1:10:23
Yeah. I mean, the the other alternative would be to try writing it through, like, kind of voice notes and audio. And I know that. I know that Josh maleman, Jesus Christ, why? Why am I obsessed over today? It's all coming out organically. He's doing this experiment, you know, soon or he's going to write a novel through voice notes. But to me, that is not really how my brain works at all. I almost have to write things down to realize what I think. Yeah,

Dan Howarth 1:11:01
I think, yeah. I don't think I could sit here and dictate a book, maybe dialog, but I don't think I could, you know, do scene description or, you know, action or what. And no, there's absolutely no way I could just sit there and speak a book like that. In itself, is it feels alien even saying that out loud, let alone talking your way through an entire book and and you've got the problem of the computer is not going to understand every word, so some of it's just going to be utter bloody gibberish as well. Is, it wouldn't work for me, to be honest. But let's face it, if anybody can pull it off, it's Josh in it. So, yeah, I imagine it'll still turn out to be absolutely awesome, even if it's beyond the grasp of us mere mortals. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:11:51
well, I imagine that he's doing this as a first draft and is then gonna polish it off. I don't think it's a one take, and that's it, but, but it could be. It could be

Dan Howarth 1:12:04
with Josh, yeah, you do never know. So, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:12:08
yeah, but I think you know you said that the computer might misunderstand what you're saying. But I'm sure we've all had these situations where evil, we've done a kind of accidental typo, or sometimes when I'm handwriting, I can't read what I've written. At times, it's like, what the hell am I going on about? But sometimes the accidental typo or the misreading of a word, it can lead to something that's like, wow, that that is more original, or that is more creative. So sometimes, in making these errors, you actually have breakthroughs. Yeah,

Dan Howarth 1:12:50
absolutely, you know you I've been handwriting a story today, actually, which is very rare for me. We love, we love the Christmas ghost story tradition in this house. So I'm writing one that I'm gonna read to my daughter on Christmas Eve, and I was writing it by hand, and I was just writing it. I was like, Jesus, like, I've got to read this by like, low light. It's like, full on daylight. I can barely read my own handwriting. God knows what He's gonna come out when I actually sit down to read it to her. But, um, but, yeah, you know, you got to try things. Got to do something so a little bit different. Every now and

Michael David Wilson 1:13:26
then you mentioned previously releasing the novella territory. And perhaps on first glance, people would think, Okay, last night of freedom and territory, this kind of isolation and Arctic horror don't have a lot in common, but the more that I look at them, the more there really is commonalities in terms of survival, in terms of kind of being against the elements or being against the locals. And also, you know, the fundamental idea is that you are encroaching on the locals territory, or you are encroaching upon the animals territories. So in terms of the writing, were you aware how many parallels there were at the time? Or was this perhaps something that only upon reflection became obvious.

Dan Howarth 1:14:25
Yeah, it only came to me afterwards, really. It's like, I read a you know, and this seems to happen to me a lot, like when I released dark missives. Read a review, and somebody was like, wow, this guy is, like, really thinking deeply about what it means to be a parent. I can't be thinking that deeply about it, because it was only when I read that review that I realized how many of those stories were about being a parent. But yeah, there are some commonalities to be fair. And I think you know, there's questions of masculinity in that book as well in Terry. Tree, to be honest, because where this community lives is is very hard. And the, you know, there are expectations around everybody there to be honest. And it isn't just masculinity, it's, it's about the question of what it takes to survive in that situation. You know, the main voice character is, is a man, but there are very strong female supporting characters in territory. There's another 100 hunter in there who's female and she kind of is interesting to address the same question as what it takes to survive. The expectations on the male hunt are extremely different to the expectations on a female Hunter, but they both have the same goal, and I think that was an interesting thing to to kind of explore and to look at really. So, yeah, I think, I think isolation is definitely, you know, and survivalism are definitely things that I'm interested in, in in my fiction. And I think if it wasn't for the common sense and level head of my life. I think survivalism would be something I'd probably be more into in my day to day life. You know, we've got a basement in this house and probably be some sort of nuclear fallout shelter, if I had my own way. But, you know, as it is, we just store a load of old crap down there and stuff. But I do occasionally go down the steps and go, it's got potential this place. So, yeah, maybe it's something I'm more into than I thoroughly realized until I'd written these books.

Bob Pastorella 1:16:27
Yeah, with territory, I felt like it was a I don't know if you're familiar with Wilson, but in Whitley Street, Ridge, Wilson and they made a movie. It's basically about wolves in New York City, getting into the very, you know, gentrified areas, and reclaiming theirs. And these are super intelligent wolves. So the book is really good. The movie is also, adaptation is actually also very good. It's definitely of the 80s. But I felt like this was kind of like, in a sense, there, because you have these, these wolves that that go without spoiling anything they they kind of, they kind of work in the same way they're very intelligent. And you have territory. It goes both ways. When you have humans wanting to stake their claim, and you have, you know, wolves that are going to to make their claim. And so I felt like it was almost like a wolf in in reverse. Instead of like coming into the city, it's like they're reclaiming, you know, their their natural habitat. And that was, I felt that was a very interesting dynamic. You know, doing the wolves like that. They were truly scary. They were very scary. And it just like these. These aren't I've seen a bunch of wolf movies and read a bunch of books about wolves, other than were wolves, and these wolves were very, very cunning, very malicious. Yeah,

Dan Howarth 1:18:04
I think it's, it's, that's a really interesting issue. And one of the, one of the most gratifying comments I've ever had about my writing was somebody said that the novel start again. The novella territory is set in Finland. And somebody from Finland read the book. And I was like, I'd met them in person at a convention. And he was like, Can I have a copy? I was like, Yeah, course. And I was like, Ah, shit. Like, you know, I've never been to Finland. I did as much research as was humanly possible, you know, at the time, read up on it as much as I could listen to podcasts and all sorts of stuff. YouTube is obviously a huge resource, if you know, I use it properly. So it's like, you know, I've done my absolute best with this, but if he tears it to pieces, like, you know, I'm gonna feel like a failure. And he got in touch afterwards and said, like he said, the thing is, you know, you've nailed both sides of the issue, because not only is kind of the management of the wolf population in Finland and other countries, kind of conservation issue, it's an issue for farmers, it's a political issue. You know, it's, it's multifaceted, really. So for him to say that was, was really good. And then, interestingly enough, I was driving somewhere. It was on there, like two days ago, and I heard a program on the radio about how wolves have been reintroduced across Europe in certain countries, and how farmers are struggling to adapt. So the wolves have adapted, as you would imagine, to the terrain, to the to the territory, if you will, pardon the pun, but farmers are struggling to adapt to a predator being on their land that hasn't been there for a generation, and they've forgotten how to manage it, and their first instinct is they want to kill them, but they've been they've been reintroduced. Being reintroduced to protect them and to get their numbers up. So the government are trying to teach them alternative methods of farming and bringing up their livestock whilst also being able to protect them from wolves without shooting the wolves. So yes, it's a very layered issue, and one that I just thought was like ripe for fiction, because, you know, you've got the interpersonal tensions of people who does believe different things about the situation. We've also got the overbearing kind of natural conservationist and instinctive actions of the wolves that are playing havoc on the community and those relationships within it. So, yeah, it was, I tried to make it as layered and as nuanced as possible. That book really, and it's, yeah, it's one that I enjoy. I can still remember writing that. And, yeah, it was inadvertent help from our from our friend. Here we go. I'm going to mention him now, Josh maleman, because the voice what? I couldn't get the voice right. I wrote that book like three four times, and then I read Malorie, and it's like, third person present. And I was like, that's how it's got to be. So that kind of cracked it for me, really, because I just could not get that book to work in kind of a, kind of fairly distant third person past tense. And then it was reading Malorie. I thought that third person present will crack it, and it gave it more urgency. So, so, yeah, sometimes you just read the right book at the right time, and it gives you that little spark of now, see the way. So it was good timing? Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:21:41
it's amazing how you know a perspective shift can breathe new life or can breathe the right life into a story. As someone who has written in numerous perspectives, is there a perspective that you find yourself most comfortable with, or that you gravitate towards more? Or have you almost transcended past that where you know it's anything goes,

Dan Howarth 1:22:10
there's certainly some that I'm more interested in than others. I find writing in the past tense more difficult to be honest, and I've got here, like, I can't turn the camera around to show you, but I can. I've written up, like, some of the key rules from Chuck Paul and X consider this, and I have them on very faded post. It notes up here and it one of the things is, like, limit and remove. Like, has, Hap is, was like redundant, needless words. And when I write in third person past, I find it very hard to get rid of some of those words. Yet when I write in the present tense, in any perspective, I find it much easier to to be more direct than to be more active and kinetic within the prose. So yeah, I often stay away from that one, but in terms of voice, sometimes it just comes naturally, like I've written a few short stories recently that have been Beta read. And I'm sure he won't mind me saying this, but our mutual friend Keith Harrison came back with a line that both pleased and kind of upset me in the feedback, he said, Your restrained first person, psychopath voice is so convincing now that I'm beginning to worry you might have bodies buried in the garden. So sometimes the voice just comes out like there's one particular story that I've written that will be published next year, called off books. It's about an actor who is playing a serial killer in, like, a true crime book, and begins to undertake some of the necessary actions to get into character. And that voice just came out like it wouldn't have gone any other way than, like first person, really, and you just had to be in that person's head to be able to write that. But yeah, I think I've got into the habit now of knowing, apart from the novel this year, which has been difficult, I have second guessed myself over that. But generally, in short of fiction, I can just Yeah, I know exactly when I sit down from the first line, right? This is going to be third. This can be first. And usually it just comes out with the idea it's I feel like you either know or you don't sometimes, certainly how I feel about it. I don't know about how, how it works for you too. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:24:32
I mean for me, actually, interestingly, I would say probably first person past is what I'm most comfortable with, and then close third person past is, yeah, a close second as it were. Now, I just prefer writing in past as opposed to present. I mean, of course, I've written a number of things in present. Um. Although equally and rather annoying. Lee, there's a book I'm working on at the moment where some scenes feel like they will be so much better in present, but then 80% feels like it will be better in past. And I know we spoke about being experimental before, but that is an experiment. Two more, too much that too far. That is schizophrenic behavior right there, which you could do if there was a reveal that it then became obvious as to why this. The rater can't discern between the present and the past, but if that isn't a central part of the book, then yeah, it's gonna look like a matter. Yeah,

Dan Howarth 1:25:48
just it'll look badly edited if it's not done correctly. Basically, I mean, my it's interesting that you say about first person past, because I always think like when I read a book that's in that tense and in that perspective. I always think there needs to be like a framing device around it, as in, how does this story exist? If somebody is telling me, like, almost like, person to person, how these events transpired, like I I always feel that there needs to be some sort of, yeah, is it like a diary or a podcast or something? I always feel there needs to be a device around it, and that's what puts me off, particularly writing first person past, because in first person present, you'll live in the events at the same time as the narrator, whereas otherwise you're being told what's happened in the past. And then I struggle with urgency, to be honest, if I when I'm writing in those situations, which is why I rarely do because it just doesn't come that truly to

Bob Pastorella 1:26:50
me. I think David Morrell had a problem with that. And when I was reading his, uh, the successful writer's book that he always had a problem with first person, because he felt like that. It was, you know, it's like, taken completely out of context. It's like, how are we getting the story? How's the story being delivered? And so he avoided it for for the longest time. And then, I don't know, I can't remember exactly, maybe he either figured it out, or someone suggested, hey, it's just like you're sitting at a bar and someone's telling

Dan Howarth 1:27:22
you a story,

Bob Pastorella 1:27:25
and they're really, really good storyteller, and it's a story that they were in. So I'm thinking that's probably the best way to do it, is without even a framing device. You know, is that you just basically start the story. And, you know, to me that first person past tense, would, would, would be there because I'm, I survived these events. I'm gonna tell you about them, you know, yeah,

Dan Howarth 1:27:52
yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:27:54
So I know that you've got lion hearts coming out next year. I believe it's coming out around April time. And you said that you're also working on another book. You've written a number of books. Are you looking at getting into a kind of two books per year routine? Is there a method to the publishing schedule, or is it more a case of, as the books come out, as the books are written, you will then kind of put them out.

Dan Howarth 1:28:31
Yeah. I mean, I've got, I've got a backlog, and some of it is, like, I should have more books out than I do. Really, like, I lost the whole of 2023 because I spent a lot of time chasing an agent. And, well, not just like one, I wasn't just running down the street after one agent, but I was trying very, very hard to get an agent. And the whole time I was thinking, Well, I can't put these books out because, you know, somebody might take them, and then, you know, at this point, I'll, you know, get a better deal than if I do it myself and all this kind of stuff. And I had a lot of questions, and, yeah, it didn't quite work out. It nearly did, but not quite. So 2023 was like a lost year, really. And in reality, that's when last night freedom should have come out? Yeah, I think 2025, will be a two book year. I think they probably all could, if I wanted them to be, you know, I've certainly got enough books in the tank. A lot of them need editing. To be honest. I'm very, very good at writing their first draft through to completion. I'm not so good at going back and then fixing the things that need to be fixed because, like the mag pi, I am. I'm like, Oh, well, I've got this idea now, so I can just write that one, and then I don't always go back and edit like I should. And so if I can get myself into a bit more of an organized routine, I am product. Active and prolific. It's just I'm not very organized in the way I go about things. So I've got two books planned for next year anyway. So I've got lion hearts at some point, maybe March, April, and then I've got a novella called the passenger as well, which I'm going to bring out. So that one's definitely coming out as well. So lion hearts is a bit of a departure, maybe not quite horror. It's done well for me, but it's never quite got over the line with like, agents and stuff. So it's come runner up in a number of competitions new writing north, which is quite a big like charity and writing organization over here, and got on the short list for one of their northern debut awards in 2021 didn't win, but got on the short list, and then this year, came second in the Liverpool pull pedal competition as well. And again, that got me on a couple of publishers radars who took the fall but didn't take it so and put it out myself. I know there's a significant change that I need to make in the book in order to make it more effective, because I've had some feedback from beta readers, and they've all said the same thing, so I need to sort that. And the pitch for it is a bit odd, like compared to, you know, as say, it's not really horror, it's so this is England meets taxi driver, really. So a few years ago, literally, I can almost see it from a house. There was a big gas explosion in a nearby, like area of the town. It blew up a lot of people's homes and businesses and stuff. And the government, as they often do in the north of England, just left us hanging. There was like no funding coming in. There was no support. People lost their jobs, lost their livelihoods, there was no help. And I just kind of had the idea about, you know, well, what type of people would benefit from these, this kind of disruption. And unfortunately, it's the the usual types, the the kind of right wing hard line, you know, banging the drum of kind of racism and all that kind of stuff. So blind hearts, the story of a man who loses his livelihood in that explosion. And then the only way he can find out of it, the only help he gets offered, is from this right wing organization. And then it becomes a question of, you know, is he going to sell his principles and effectively sell his soul for this help? And if he does, can he get out of it again? So there's an element of kind of domestic thriller to it. There's, you know, there's an element of kind of, you know, all that vile right wing politics to it as well. And part thriller, part, I don't know literary, I guess, part crime. It's, it's bit of a tweener. It's kind of not quite one thing. It's not quite the other. It's, yeah, I like it, though it's a it's a horrible book, but it's not horror book, perhaps.