TIH 602: Eric LaRocca on At Dark, I Become Loathsome, Norman Reedus, and Queer Representation in Horror

Michael David Wilson 0:07
Welcome to This Is Horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode, alongside my co host, Bob Pastorella, we chat with the world's best writers about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more. Today on This Is Horror. We'll be talking to Eric LaRock. Eric is a two time Bram Stoker Award finalist and splatter punk award winner. He was named by Esquire as one of the writers shaping horror's next golden age, and praised by locus as one of the strongest, most unique voices in contemporary horror fiction. His notable works include things have gotten worse since we last spoke, everything the darkness eats. The trees grew because I bled there, and you've lost a lot of blood. His latest novel, at dark I become loathsome, was published late last month by Blackstone publishing, and it's already been optioned for a film by the walking dead star Norman read us, and that book is primarily the reason why we decided to talk to Eric today. So what we're going to do is you'll take a quick advert break, and then we'll get on with the episode with Eric la rocker

Andrew Love 1:56
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Bob Pastorella 2:27
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Michael David Wilson 3:05
Okay with that said, Here it is. It is Eric La Rocca on, This Is Horror, Eric, welcome back to This Is Horror Podcast.

Eric LaRocca 3:20
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you guys again and chat about horror and being loathsome and transgressive horror all that good stuff.

Michael David Wilson 3:31
Yeah. So it has been around a year since we last spoke, so I want to know, I mean, what of the biggest changes for you been in that time, and what were some of the highlights for you in 2024

Eric LaRocca 3:53
Yeah, 2024 was a great year for me. Professionally, I saw the release of my novella collection. This skin was once mine and other disturbances from Titan books, which I thought was very well received. And I think that's when we last talked about that book. Did we talk about that book? Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 4:14
we certainly did. Yeah. I think it was one of the best short story collections of the past year, and you think, you know, a lot of those stories are still resonating with me today, and I think about them a lot. So yeah, it's a marvelous collection.

Eric LaRocca 4:35
Thank you. Yeah. So I was very honored that that book came out. I, you know, looking back professionally, I was able to go to author con, which is an amazing convention in Virginia that's helmed by Brian Keene, who's an incredible horror author. And I was. A guest of honor for that event. And I mean, probably the biggest thing that happened, well, two big things happened since we last talked. I hinted at it, I think the last time we did an interview, but I was able to finally announce my deal with Norman Reedus and Blackstone, my book at dark, I become loathe some, which is now coming out January 28 this month, from Blackstone, more specifically from Norman's imprint at Blackstone called big bald head. That was a huge, amazing, like amazing, amazing announcement that I was able to do this past year in 2024 and you know, the reception for that was was so incredible from the horror community, everyone really seemed like they were putting a lot of goodwill behind me and Just rallying around me and celebrating my accomplishment so that that was an amazing moment for me. And then next, I announced my new deal with saga press, an imprint of Simon and Schuster. I'll be working with editor Tim O'Connell on a brand new horror novel that he commissioned for me, and that's called wretch, W, R, E, T, C, H. It's my first novel with only just one word in the title. So that's like character development. That's big, big moves for me. So yeah, I'm really excited about that, that public that book is scheduled to come out within a couple years. I'm really looking forward to that. And, yeah, I feel like 2024, was a great year professionally. A lot of things happening behind the scenes, maybe not a lot of stuff in front of the camera yet that I'm, you know, just not able to talk about yet. But I feel like the stuff that I was able to announce and kind of clue my readers into was was really special. And, you know, it was a it was, it was kind of, even though I had those big announcements. Like it was a relatively quiet year, somewhat in that I only had one book that came out, which is the skin was once mine. I had another novel that was slated to come out in the fall of 2024 but we unfortunately had to, like, push that back a little bit just to do just due to publishing scheduling conflicts. But that being said, I am really proud of the the book, the book I put out last year, and people seem to be really connecting with it. The people who need it are reading it, which is always so important. And I'm really looking forward to a dark I become loathsome, finally coming out. It's been a long time coming to, you know, announce the book, and then to write it, to get it on the bookshelf. And it's just really exciting. So I'm really looking forward to it. Goodness. There's so

Michael David Wilson 8:15
much that we now need to talk about. And, I mean, of course, you have said, and we know that you have so many different books that are forthcoming. You mentioned the saga, press novel, wretch. You, of course, have in a matter of weeks, at dark, I become loathsome, and I know too that you have a trilogy coming from Titan books. I'm wondering in terms of the scheduling and the publishing, is that something that you get involved in, in terms of saying when different things will come out? Is it a call that the publisher makes? Is it something your agent gets involved in? Do the publishing houses consider when other titles are coming out? So Titan C Okay, or saga have this one coming out? Norman readers has that one. Let's slot it in there. How does it all work for you?

Eric LaRocca 9:23
It's a bit of a go rope. Sometimes it's a bit of a delicate dance with some of these publishers. Just because the issue was, for a little bit that I have a lot of different books with different publishers. You know, I am working primarily with Titan books on, you know, my short story collections, and then the trilogy that's coming out. But then Blackstone approached us, you know, Norman Reedus approached us, and that's an opportunity I just could not refuse. So I, you know, we signed a deal with them. Yeah, and then they had to, kind of finagle when we were going to release that book, and that was a discussion with Titan that, you know, usually through my agent, that we kind of decide, like, what's the best course of action. And then the trilogy coming out, we kind of have it structured in a way now where, you know, the the saga Press book I'm hoping will come out either next year or the year after. We're trying to slot it in, in between some of the trilogy that's coming out, the three books in that trilogy. For for right now, it was going to become like the trilogy was just going to be back to back to back, but knowing how, knowing how dark and depraved and unsettling the trilogy is in general, I really want to give more space to each book, and we're hoping to spread it out a little bit more. And that being said, we're hoping to slot the saga book in a little bit sooner. But if that doesn't happen, the saga book will probably come out, like, 2027 or 2028 but it is written and it's done, and I actually just finished developmental edits on it today, so I'm really happy it's been, like, accepted by my editor, and we're like, going into copy edits soon. So it's, it's really exciting, but like I said, it is like a delicate dance between all these different publishers. The goal, obviously, is to partner with one publishing house in particular and have that be like my literary home. But you know, I'm, I'm, obviously, I'm open to, like, I I'm actually, like, really interested in, really interested in adopting the Josh Malerman method of, like, publishing the big literary horror novels with, like, the the big five press, and then working with like the smaller independent presses for like chat books or novellas or little short story collections, I feel like Josh has really perfected the art of dabbling in both the traditional publishing space, like with the Big Five like he he's housed at Del Rey, but also works with like earthling and like all these other publishing places that are like in the more independent circuit. So I really admire that. And I actually think about Josh quite a bit, like in his career and his longevity in general, how he's able to like publish so much. And when I talked to him last I know that he has, like, all of these books slated to come out, but he has them like in his office, just like in drawers, like all of these books that have already been written. And it's kind of like I've, I've kind of mimicked him in a lot of ways, like I have all of these drafts of books like ready to go on my hard drive, on my computer. And, you know, we're putting out the we're putting out loathsome obviously, at the end of this month in January, but then in September of this year, we're putting out the first book of the burnt Sparrow trilogy. And I'm really looking forward to that. I think I'm really proud of that book, and in general, I think it's one of the best things I've ever written. We've had a really great early response from Paul Tremblay, which gives me, like, a lot of hope. So that being said, like I just, I think about Josh a lot, just in general, and how he's able to kind of go back and forth between the traditional publishing model of like working with Del Rey and then working with the small, little independent publishing houses. I feel like that's kind of the sweet spot that I want to fall into as well.

Michael David Wilson 13:56
Yeah, I think it's something that a lot of people seem to be dabbling with these days. And you know, it seemed, let's say, 10 years ago, that very much going for a big publisher was the way that people wanted to go, what they were aspiring for. And then I feel what, maybe five or so years ago, there was a great resurgence of self publishing and independent publishing, and you saw people like Adam Neville and David Moody in the UK, who had previously been traditionally published, going more this kind of indie self publishing group, but now it seems to be the time of the hybrid, for want of better phrasing, where you've got people who that they're doing a little bit independently or with a small press and a little bit with the big. Four or five, I'm not sure how many it is right now, but the point is that they're then getting the benefits of both, and they're getting, certainly the creative freedom and the chances that you're able to take when you're with a smaller publishing house. But to say that to you is somewhat ironic, because you seem to have creative freedom. Whoever you publish with,

Eric LaRocca 15:28
we really do. I I've reached a point, and I don't know if it's because of the success of books like things have gotten worse since we last spoke, and you've lost a lot of blood. And, you know, the other books that I've published, but I've had kind of, like, carte blanche. When I go to these publishing houses, like, you know, they're like, write us whatever you want to write and and we'll take a look at it, and they seem pretty game. And then that, with that in mind, I've, I've really been amazed at how much creative control I've had with cover art, because I know that that's not the case with a lot of artists, a lot of authors who work with in the traditional, traditional publishing model. I know, like a lot of authors, kind of get the email where it's like, you know, this is the cover we're going with. This is what sales they're really excited about. The sales team wants to go with this design. So this is what we're going with. But I've, I really haven't had that interaction yet with with a publisher. In fact, Blackstone really kind of let me do a lot of creative direction with this cover for at dark, I become loathsome the the US cover. There's also a titan a UK edition that's coming out that I had some, you know, input in, not as much as I did with the Blackstone edition. But I've, I've, it's been so such an honor to be able to express myself the way I feel, the way I really want my art to be represented in the world, and how I want it to be perceived on the bookshelf. So it's, it's really special, and it's, it's really a unique experience. I feel like that. Not a lot of authors get to, get to experience what i've what I've experienced.

Bob Pastorella 17:29
It's like you're creating a brand, yeah, and it's, it's, I think now, especially if you're prolific, it's really good to kind of branch out and do do a hybrid model. But you really want to to create a brand that that lets people know your the range. Usually you think of a brand as something that's very specific and very narrow brand. You know, narrow banded, but I think with writers, it a brand allows you to show your range. May look at Joe Lansdale, he can write anything, yeah, but it's a Joe Lansdale story. It's the same thing when you when you get an Eric La Rocca book, you can write anything, but it's an Eric La Rocca story. And so thank you. Yeah, and creating that brand. I think that, you know, malerman's done it, you're doing it. It's important. It's, it's, you know, and it takes time. It takes a lot of work, but, you know, kudos to you. I mean, that's, I love that kind of stuff.

Eric LaRocca 18:36
Thank you. I do too. I really admire that. Mean, that means a lot that you said that. Bob, thank you. Um, I, I really admire the the authors that have what you're talking about, you know, like, like Clive Barker, obviously, is a huge influence for me. Um, you know, even Dennis Cooper, who's an amazing, like, more literary author, but also has, like, a lot of disturbing horror elements. Chuck Palahniuk is a huge inspiration for me. I love chuck with my whole soul, like, I love that man so much, and I look to Him for inspiration quite a bit. And it's the same thing, like, you know, it's a Chuck Palahniuk story novel when, when you're reading it. And I think branding is so important for authors, and maybe a lot of up and coming authors don't think about that a lot when they sign with, like a publisher, but it's something that you really should be thinking about at least in the back of your mind when you're when you're collaborating with with these publishers, because you want to develop a distinct voice in your writing and also the way in which your stories are being presented to the public. So the art is very important. At least the Art has always been really important to me, like the the artwork on the cover and I. For a while. You know, a lot of my artwork was very, you know, painting a lot of like syrupy, dripping, sort of threads. And now with that dark I become loathsome, the US edition from Blackstone it I sent, when I sent the cover to one of my really good friends, he said, he immediately texted back, and he was like, it's like, your paintings have finally come to life. You know, it's this beautiful statue, for anyone who hasn't seen the cover. It's this beautiful red statue, just like with this bright red light thrown on it, and the head is like missing the top half, and its mouth is kind of corroded away, and there's this, like, hand going into the mouth and another hand going into the top of the head. And it looks, sort of, it looks so surreal. It has that surreal quality that a lot of my covers had, but it's more it's more life like, and it's more visceral, I think so it's important to have that brand, but it's also important to, like, surprise people with new things and be like, Oh, I can also do this, because that's something I think about a lot too. I

Michael David Wilson 21:14
think it might be your best cover in terms of matching and Perfectly encapsulating what the book is about. I mean, there's something very sexual and provocative about it, but there's a real violence and a kind of Barker like sinister foreboding. It just seems to have so much in this one arresting image, and, yeah, to have it predominantly red and black with the text in white, couldn't have been better. And that, yeah, that those hands. I mean, honestly, what's going on there. It could be forceful, it could be consensual. It could be a little bit from here, a little bit from there. There's such a lot of ambiguity, but it's powerful, and it really does work for what you've delivered here.

Eric LaRocca 22:19
Thank you. I appreciate that. I should note for listeners that the artwork was designed by Sarah sipkin, who's an amazing visual artist, I believe, based in LA and she designed, I could be wrong about the LA thing. I think that's where she's from, and she designed the cover art for Gretchen Wilker Martin's manhunt and Gretchen's cuckoo. So when I saw those covers, I was immediately just drawn to them. And I thought, oh, man, like I would love to collaborate with her on something. And I pitched it to Blackstone, and they were immediately like, yeah, absolutely. Let's do it. So there's never been any question with with Blackstone, they've been just a dream to work with and just amazing collaborators. And it's, I can't sing their praises enough. I really feel like they've put a lot of goodwill and marketing muscle behind this book, in particular, which really it. It shouldn't surprise me, but it does only because it, it's such a it's such a transgressive book, and it's such a difficult book to it's not easily digestible, I feel like in a lot of ways. But, you know, I could be wrong. Some people have said that, it's one of my more like accessible and approachable books, but some of the material in there, I feel like it's deliberately provocative and, you know, deliberately upsetting. So I'm just interested to hear how it goes over with with folks.

Michael David Wilson 23:59
Yeah, while I was reading this, I thought, wow, this is a bold title, B, O, L, D, given the name of the publication for Norman reader some Blackstone to decide to open a publishing line with. I mean, this is not messing about, yeah, this, I don't know if I would say it's your most accessible book. For me, it was like, wow, there are you are not you know, goodness, how to even put it, conforming to the norms you are giving something that is so purely you and I think, you know, people are going to have a reaction to it. Whatever that reaction is, they will be affected. They will react. You're not going to walk away from this being like, oh, you know it was, it was all right. No, no, no. You are going. To feel something. And so I want to know, I mean, you have alluded to this a little bit. It seems like you had a lot of freedom in terms of, when they said that they wanted you to write something to open the publication. Now, I assume there wasn't much guidance given in terms of what they wanted. It was just, we want a story from you. But then when your editor and your agent and whoever saw it to begin with, ready, I want to know what their reaction was, because, as I say, bold is the the word that comes to mind to to open your publication, your publishing house, with that, I don't even know where you go from there, because this is a statement. Thank you.

Eric LaRocca 25:55
Thank you. Yeah, no, um, the the reception for the book, like within Blackstone, has been really, really positive, and I know that they're 100% behind this title when we pitched the book. So back up to like 2021, things have gotten worse since we last spoke. Had just come out. It was going viral on Tiktok and Instagram and YouTube, and I get an email one day from someone who says that he's Norman Reed, is his agent. And I'm like, yeah, right, okay, whatever. And I just send it to my manager, Brian, and I said, you know, do you mind looking into this and just seeing what this like, what this guy is interested in. I sent him the email, and he was like, Yeah, sure. Like, I'll take care of it. So a couple days passed, and I just think to myself, like, Oh, we're never gonna hear back from him. Like, because that's how kind of the industry is sometimes in with, like filmmaking and like that sort of crowd. Like, you get ghosted quite a bit. And I've been ghosted like a lot with with Hollywood. So it's, it's kind of like, who knows what's going to happen, but we, you know, Ryan eventually gets back in touch with me, and he's like, yeah, no, it's legit. Like, Norman Reedus is a huge fan of your work and would love to open his imprint at Blackstone with one of your books. And I mean, it was such a surreal moment. It was so incredible to know that like a celebrity like Norman Reedus was not only a fan of my work, but wanted to collaborate with me and work with me on something. And he optioned the book before it was even written, which was so such a, such a, an amazing gesture of goodwill, it felt like, so we got the contracts all squared away, and that was relatively pretty easy. And then it came time to like pitching the book, and then eventually, like writing the thing. And I had had this idea for quite some time. In fact, I kind of allude to it a little bit in things have gotten worse since we last spoke. One of the characters mentions to the other character how she's watching a television program about an organization in Asia that buries you alive for like, a transformative rebirth experience like that's in things have gotten worse since we last spoke, because I had had, I had encountered this article about these live burials that were happening in different cultures that these organizations would hold in order to, like, purify you and give you this, like, transformative rebirth process. And it just completely fascinated me, so I referenced it, and things have gotten worse since we last spoke, and from there, I knew I wanted to incorporate it as, like, the main premise of a larger piece of work. And I, you know, the the concept came to me pretty organically, once I had that background, and once I had that that backdrop that I could, like, set the scene against. And from there, I knew I wanted it to be like a really depraved, disturbing character study, where we follow the descent of one man who undergoes a significant amount of loss in a short period of time. And yeah, from there, it just, it seemed like a really, like a no brainer thing to pitch, uh, Blackstone. Because to me, it was, it was something that could be like a perfect vehicle for Norman in general. Um, I see him. He's a remarkable actor, of course, but he has a brutality to. Him that's really fascinating. He's just he's very, very rugged, very violent in some ways, but he has, like, a beautiful tenderness and a sensitivity to his his his performances that are just so it's why we watch him. It's why we're captivated every time he appears on screen. So I feel like he would be the perfect person to play the main protagonist of this book, Ashley. I feel like he would be the perfect choice for it, whether he will or not, I'm not certain. He has optioned the book as a film, so that's really exciting. His production company has optioned it rather so, so that's wonderful. But from there, you know, I took like, a year or so and wrote the wrote the manuscript and then submitted it to Blackstone. And from there, once you have the manuscript accepted by Blackstone, it's kind of interesting how they do things over there. They pair you with an editor that is a freelance editor, not necessarily an employee of Blackstone, but rather someone, an outside editor that they commission to work on the project with you, so you have an editor in house that kind of oversees the whole process. But the but you're working, you're collaborating with someone who's not necessarily a full time employee of Blackstone. So I was paired with a brilliant woman named Melissa Ann singer, who was the former senior editor of Tor. She worked there for many, many, many, many years, and had worked with incredible authors like Daniel Kraus, who the book is dedicated to, and she even worked with Robert block, the author of psycho so she's like a legend, and she really brought the book to a whole new level. The first draft of the book was obviously pretty rough, like all first drafts are, and I had lost my way with a couple of plot threads. And, you know, the character development could have been a lot stronger. And she really brought all that out in the subsequent drafts that we did. We did a couple drafts together, and it was, it was brilliant to work with her. It was just such a smooth, organic sort of process. And her, her critiques were always very, very thoughtful, very insightful, but never, like, totally prescriptive. Never, like, you have to do it like this or else, which is, I kind of prefer, like, a gentle approach. When I'm working with an editor, and she was, she was very, very gentle, very wonderful to work with. She really understands narrative and character and story, and, you know, like I said, she's just a legend, so it was a joy to work with her. And, you know, bring out certain elements of the plot, more refine more of the character development. And once all of that was done, it went into like the the machine of Blackstone, and from there, it's just been such a such an amazing process. I mean, like I said, they have really spared no expense with with marketing this book and getting it in front of the right people. They really, I feel very validated that they are very much behind me. So it's been a delight to partner with them and with Norman. I can't speak highly enough about all of them. Yeah, if you

Michael David Wilson 33:51
had any personal interactions with Norman, or if not yet, then have you been able to find out what he personally thinks about this book. I don't know if you've been given a message from him at all, yeah.

Eric LaRocca 34:07
So, um, I haven't, like officially met him yet. Unfortunately, I'm, I'm really bummed about that, because I obviously really want to meet him, um, just, just to thank him for this opportunity and, really just, you know, just thank him for this incredible opportunity, this platform that he gave me. So I haven't met him, but I have heard that he is a huge fan of the cover art that we went with, loves the cover, and we've kind of like interacted a little bit like on social media, like he's retweeted my stuff, he follows me on Twitter and Instagram, and he's reposted my things, like in his stories, He's liked my photos. I think he's even liked photos that weren't pertaining to at dark. I become loathsome. So you. He just, he just seems like a really genuine, sweet person. And I, you know, I like, I said, like, I haven't met him, but I really, really like him, like, he just seems like a very genuine person, just in general,

Michael David Wilson 35:13
yeah, and I can totally imagine him playing the protagonist, playing Ashley Luton, if this will hopefully, when given that it's been commissioned by his own company when it became a movie, I'm kind of conditioned to always say if, because I know how fickle Hollywood in the movie world can be. So is a is a strong if a given you know what, what's happened. But goodness, like, I want to see this, and I imagine that it would be shot in a very kind of dark, almost old school way, like, I don't think you know, this is not going to be a bright, modern cinema piece, so almost something of the techniques of John Carpenter, or perhaps like early David Lynch. I could really imagine doing justice to this in terms of the cinematography. Yeah, very

Eric LaRocca 36:16
Lynchian. I feel like, or even maybe, like, Lars von Trier, like, I'm a big fan of work. I feel like he'd do like, a really brutal, brutal job with with this film. I also love the director of, like, Titan and raw. I'm like, obsessed with her, Julia ducarno, and then the director of the substance, Coralie, far as she, I don't know how you pronounce the name, but, um, they're, they're both incredible directors. I it would be just amazing to collaborate with any of them at some point. And I mean, you never know how Hollywood, like I said, it's, it's very, very fickle, very difficult to kind of predict, predict where things go. You get ghosted things. Maybe they're going one minute, they're next. They're not going the next. But the fact that I have Norman Reedus on my side, I feel a little bit protected. I feel like I've got, you know, ammunition behind me, a little bit.

Bob Pastorella 37:20
The writing is very cinematic. The I was getting imagery that was very vivid, which is strange for a novel that is very introspective as well, but the especially your exterior scenes, you know, the abandoned, the abandoned areas, the, you know, just the whole esthetic of that it was, it felt like it felt authentic. It felt it was very, very vivid thing. And I could, I could see this, you know, going into some a movie that would be very dark, not obviously dark, but shot dark, yeah, shot dim, you know. And dare I say, even it would probably work really good in black and white.

Michael David Wilson 38:27
Could you imagine if it was shot in black and white, but there were also flashes of red? If you could somehow shoot it in black and white and red, that'd be

Eric LaRocca 38:37
amazing. Yeah? Norman,

Bob Pastorella 38:39
if you're listening, dude.

Eric LaRocca 38:44
Help us out. Norman, yeah,

Bob Pastorella 38:47
yeah, just slinging out there, black and white with slashes of red, yeah,

Eric LaRocca 38:50
yeah, that would you gave me an idea. I might have to give you, like, a cut of the royalties for the phone.

Michael David Wilson 38:58
I mean, you're generous enough as it is, but please use that idea. Please pass it on,

Bob Pastorella 39:05
yeah. Pass it on. Definitely, yeah. I definitely, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 39:11
But I mean, you said about how much the marketing team has put into this. And I mean, that was certainly something I noticed when I was looking at the Goodreads, it's like, hang on a minute. This book is not even out yet. And when I looked yesterday, so this may now be old information, it had 211 ratings and 137 reviews. I mean, an author would be happy with that in the opening week, a lot of people listening are like, the opening month. Maybe there's some people who are like, I'd just be happy with that full stop. So I want to know. I mean, how has that happened? How have they got it to so many people? People. And not just got it to people, but these people are reviewing it. They're rating it, they're talking about it. I don't feel that I've seen so many reviews when a book is not even out yet.

Eric LaRocca 40:14
Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. I, like I said, I can't quite fathom how they've put so much good will and effort behind this title when it's so dark and transgressive and not really like easily marketable, at least, I don't think it's an easily marketable book. Maybe they feel differently. Obviously they're doing things that I could never do, just like on my own. I mean, they did so much in the beginning and and throughout up until release. I mean, there's still, like, amazing news coming in, like pretty much every day about this title. And, you know, reviews coming in from like, the big trade outlets, Barnes and Noble picked it as one of the best books of january 2025 which is a big coup. I felt like that was a big win. And then today, I got an email from like the president of Blackstone that the book is one of the best horror titles of Kobo books for January, which is awesome. So that that's been incredible. There's going to be like, a really great like deal in February for the e book on a specific retailer site. We just haven't announced it yet, but, yeah, it's, it's, it's just, it's insane and it's crazy. I'm just so honored that they have seen fit to put so much marketing muscle behind a book that is so gnarly and so like unabashedly queer and grotesque. It's it like, restores my faith a lot in publishing in general, because it's like, it seems like a book that they would kind of just release and see what happens and hopefully get word of mouth. But they're really putting a lot of effort into into this title, and they've done so much for me and for my writing career, like I owe a lot to them.

Michael David Wilson 42:29
Okay, this is probably not a question that you've had before, but talking about it being unabashedly queer, which it absolutely is, when I was reading it, I noticed that you were using the adjective for said queerly. Said quite a lot. And I thought, is this, is this deliberate? Is this like a nod to the queer community or or are you just really fond of this adjective. I mean, not an adjective, it's an adverb. Yeah, apologize for everyone.

Eric LaRocca 43:07
I mean, probably a little bit of both. I mean, I, I grew up reading so much horror, but a lot of it was very hetero sexual, very heteronormative, and queer characters were just not a part of the focus whatsoever. If there were queer characters, they were coded. If there was any hint of sexuality, like, you know, different kinds of sexuality, it was very, very like masked. It wasn't like in your face, it wasn't flagrant. So that being said, I have always been really interested in just presenting unabashedly queer material and queer characters. I feel it's an it's an honor to be able to write, you know, open or or, you know, struggling with their sexuality, queer characters like Ashley, I feel like it's, it's just, it's just part of my my DNA, to write that, and I wouldn't know how to write really anything else. And I feel like people really resonate with that, or at least the people that are supposed to resonate with it, do. It resonates with them. So it's, it's really special. I feel like,

Michael David Wilson 44:29
yeah, there's so much struggle within Ashley. Like, related to love, related to sexual desires, related to violent desires. And you know, even relating to and pertaining to his own view of himself. And I feel that, you know, we talk about story is conflict, and there is conflict in every line. This isn't just conflict on every. Page, but it is part of the fabric of this book. And so, I mean, if people want an exercise in terms of how to write stories, or if they want I should say an illustrative guide, it is this book. I mean, I said last year that the book that I felt really made a massive impact and will be remembered for years to come is incidents around the house by Josh maleman. But when I read this book, and it seems ridiculous to be saying this, on January the 11th, I was like, I think at dark I become loafs and might be, you know, it could be the book that changes things in 2025 i i realized the absurdity of this statement to be like what he's trying to announce a book of the year 11 days in that he finished on the second of January. But I mean, goodness, if this is a statement of what's to come in 2025 then, as the cliche goes, we're eating good.

Eric LaRocca 46:11
Yeah, I love that. I love that I'm honored. And feel a bit of pressure from that. But, you know, I appreciate it. I feel like everyone, there are so many incredible writers in horror that are putting out such compelling work that is changing the landscape of horror fiction. And I feel like I don't know I was looking at so many anticipated lists of 2025, and it feels like every single book in horror that's being listed like, it sounds like a banger, like every single book like you know, you've got clay McLeod Chapman's book that just came out. That's a banger. I read that early. Chuck Wendig upcoming book, the staircase in the woods. That sounds incredible. Rachel Harrison has a book coming out in the fall this year. Play nice. That sounds amazing. I mean, there's so many, so many iconic authors putting out such compelling material, and it's just an honor to be on the bookshelf alongside them. It's really special. I feel

Michael David Wilson 47:24
you mentioned reading Clay's book. And I mean, you read a hell of a lot of books. You blurb a lot of books, so just as a little side tangent, and then Bob would jump in. So apologies for cutting you off there. But I want to know what, what does your reading look like, in terms of what, where are you fitting that in with all the things that you're doing?

Eric LaRocca 47:50
I've honestly had to close for blurbs lately, just because, you know, I am getting kind of inundated with requests, and I hate letting people down, but it's just impossible to read everything, and it's just not sustainable. So I feel really bad when when people DM me or reach out to my agent and ask if I can read and blurb their work, but I want to do their work justice, and I don't want to, I don't want to, like, you know, spend less time on a book than I need, you know what I mean. So it's, it's important to me to be able to read a book like at my leisure, and enjoy it and really think about what I want to say about it, and be have craft like a meaningful blurb, so that being said, I did kind of close for blurbs recently. But as far as, like, how I fit it in, I I I'm really privileged in that I'm able to kind of just like write and read for a living, which is brilliant. And I love that I've been wanting to have this lifestyle for many, many years, and it's finally here, and I'm just savoring it, to be honest, like it's it's brilliant to be able to wake up every day and think, all right, I'm gonna read for like, two or three hours, and then I'm gonna go sit and Write at the computer for four or five and it's, it's a luxury I know that a lot of people don't have, but, you know, it's, it's wonderful to be able to be so creative and have a lifestyle that, like, caters to my creativity. That being said, you know, I am doing, like, a lot of events in the coming months, like, I'm doing a little book tour at the end of this month, I'm doing another tour in February with a couple other horror authors in New England. I'm doing a lot of events over like, spring and summer and then the fall. I'm, like, going to a lot of places for the burnt Sparrow. But. That's coming out. So I definitely have a lot more on my plate this year than I've had in previous years. So I'm interested to see how my reading habits change. I mean, I can read while I'm traveling, if I'm like, on a plane or, you know, on the train or something, but, yeah, I'm just interested to see how much reading I get done this year, because I am, I'm, like, a little bit busier than I've been normally. So

Michael David Wilson 50:27
yeah, do you listen to many audio books at all? Or is it purely reading physical and ebooks? And regardless of your answer to that, have you heard the audio book for at dark, I become loathsome because it is a fantastically narrated book. Oh, so perfect.

Eric LaRocca 50:51
That's great to hear. I honestly haven't heard it. Yet I haven't heard it. So I picked out the narrator specifically after hearing him audition, and I knew immediately that's who I wanted to narrate the book. I thought he was perfect. I thought he kind of captured the essence of the character so masterfully with just like that kind of dark, brooding atmosphere, but also had like this like tenderness to him, the same way, like Norman Reedus has that sensitivity to him. So yeah, I knew I wanted him to be the narrator for this book, but sadly, I haven't read it yet. I don't listen to audiobooks too often, to be honest, not that I have anything against them. I just, I just don't listen to them. If, if I'm, like, doing chores around my apartment, like, I'll just put on music or something. It's, it's hard for me to really when I'm reading and, you know, listening to things, like, if I'm listening to a book, I really want to listen to it. And I feel like, if I'm doing chores, or, like, you know, doing laundry or unloading the dishwasher, like I'm not really giving it the attention I need to give it in order to fully grasp what's going on, and I feel like I'll miss things. I've tried doing it a couple times, and it just never works for me. So instead, I just, like, put on music. So, um, yeah, I pretty much just only read, like, on my on my iPad, or I buy a lot of, like, physical, physical books. I just, I love physical media, so I'm, like, definitely a collector,

Michael David Wilson 52:30
yeah, well, I can certainly confirm that the narrator that you got for this one, he does the entire thing brilliantly. That's great, as Bob knows, and probably people who have listened to this as horror for long enough, I'm very particular with narrators, but yeah, he created a banger. It's absolutely brilliant. That's

Eric LaRocca 52:54
great to hear. Thank you so much for telling me I need to write to Blackstone and maybe see if they can send me the file or something, or I'll just buy it.

Michael David Wilson 53:04
I'm I'm sure that they can send it you. Yeah,

Eric LaRocca 53:06
I'm sure they'll send it to me. Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 53:10
I wanted to to go back to what you said, that horror is changing, and because I've been harping on this for a while, but about writing fearlessly, horror is changing. We have gotten horror to a point to where it is at an all time high. I think that it's, it's bigger now, then it's then it's ever been in my lifetime and and I've been through this is, you know, this is the third boom horror that I've been through, though the earliest one I was very young, but I've lived through it, and it is. It has never been more popular than it is right now. And when I talk about people being fearless, and then I read your book, and I'm like, fuck, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're swinging for the fences right out of the gate.

And if people are listening to this and you want to know, hey, this is what it's going to take to stand out, you need to read this book, because this is writing fearlessly. This is putting peeling the blinders back and going after it. And this is the way that you're going to stand out. And it's, it's also a way. But going back to what we're talking about brand, it's also a way to brand. And so, yeah, this is, you know, it the the horror landscape is changing. It's changing for the better. I think we're in for for probably at least three to four more years of this, and, you know, things will inevitably go back to, you know, something else will become popular. But we need to ride this wave before they start putting supernatural suspense on the spines again instead of horror, you know, so. So yes, it's we're at a great time for horror and for horror movies, hard fiction, the whole thing, and just fucking right fearlessly. You, you did it.

Eric LaRocca 55:13
Thank you so much, Bob, that that means a lot. I, I totally agree with everything you said. I mean, we really are in a boom of horror right now, and it is better than it ever was. I think it's very diverse. You know, obviously there's room for improvement. With any sort of diversity and marginalized voices, we can always bring more to the table, and we should bring more voices to the table. That being said, it's it's so much better than it was when I was growing up and reading horror fiction in like the early 2000s early 2010s I feel like especially LGBTQ plus horror has really boomed over the past couple years, and we have incredible authors like Haley Piper and Gretchen Felker, Martin Alison rum, fit David dem Chuck Joe coke. Like the list goes on and on, like we have so many incredible LGBTQ plus authors creating remarkable work. And it's it's wonderful that I get to call these people, peers and colleagues and also friends. Like, it's so, so special, and it makes me excited about what's to come. Like, what horror is is is always like it's, I think it was Dario Argento who said, like, horror is always like shedding its skin and always like transforming. So I'm always curious to know, like, what the next transformation is going to be. I'm always curious to know, like, how it's going to evolve and and compel people to pick up new books by by newer writers. I think that's really, really amazing,

Bob Pastorella 56:55
considering that the, you know, the the, I guess, worldwide, national conservative philosophy that's going around. It's, I think it's real important that we maintain, you know, our voice, our voice is our strength, and conservatives don't, don't like what horror does? They don't like it. They wish they could control it. Let's put it to you like that. It's they don't like it because they can't control the narrative, yeah? And anytime, to me, I'm very anti conservative, anytime you can piss off a conservative fucking let's do it, you know. And so that's, you know, if you want to look at it from a political stance, yeah, that's definitely a way to look at it, but it's also, you know, bringing the a game and letting people know there's more to horror than just what they've read before. It's, it's, it's changing. It's a totally different landscape now, and I think more and more people are getting into it. It's just, it's, it's phenomenal. What's happening. I agree.

Eric LaRocca 58:04
I agree. I I'm really lucky. And I get a lot of messages from like, younger up and coming, uh, horror authors who are queer, or just readers in general, who are queer, and they're so excited to see so much queer horror material on the shelves, and I get that like I'm so honored that I'm able to be on the shelf and have them reach for one of my books and be that gateway for them that leads them to Another book by like Gretchen, or by Haley, or something like, you know, it's just, it's so it's such a rewarding experience to be able to to have that and to to be that for people, the way, like Clive Barker was for me when I was growing up, or Poppy Z bright, you know, like those, those writers were The the portals to the other world for me, and they influenced me a great deal.

Michael David Wilson 59:09
Thank you for listening to This Is Horror Podcast. If you enjoy the show and want to support us, then please consider becoming a patron a patreon.com, forward slash, This Is Horror you'll get early bird access to each and every episode, and you can submit questions to the interviewee. You'll also automatically become a member of the This Is Horror discord. And every year there are bonus episodes for patrons only, such as story unboxed, the horror podcast on the craft of writing, in which Bob and I, and sometimes a special guest, will dissect a short story or film and let you know writing lessons and takeaways to improve your own writing. Another great way to support us is to leave us a review on the apple. Podcast, app or website, and if you want to watch the video version of the This Is Horror Podcast, join us on YouTube. Youtube.com, forward slash at This Is Horror Podcast. You can subscribe there and get notified every time there is a new video. And however you support us. I thank you in advance. Okay, before I wrap up, a quick advert break

Bob Pastorella 1:00:28
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Michael David Wilson 1:01:38
Well, that about does it for another episode of This Is Horror before I go, I'd like to thank core, core 451, on Apple podcast for a fantastic review. It's a five star entitled love it and it reads. As a horror writer, I'm always excited when a new episode. This Is Horror lands on my phone. So thank you. Thank you very much indeed, core, core, 451, and thank you too. To everyone rating and reviewing my books on Goodreads. I've had a number come in recently for The Girl in the Video. And I should say, if anyone is interested in my fiction, and I've got a brand new book coming out in May. It's called dad is boy, and there are details now on the This Is Horror website, and I will be unveiling a load of things, including blurbs, very shortly. So if you're interested in dad is boy. Check out the This Is Horror website, and check out my own website. Michael David wilson.co.uk, and indeed, my Patreon, patreon.com, forward slash. Michael David Wilson, but that is it for another episode of This Is Horror. We'll be back next time chat in with Eric la roca for the second and final part of this conversation. But until then, take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror. Keep on writing and have a great, Great day.